Biden's rise in 2020 race catches Trump's eye, unnerves his allies

[Jingthing]

 Barack Obama had nonstop positive news coverage from the media. He even got an unearned nobel peace prize within 9 months of his first year.
 
 
President Trump has nonstop negative news coverage from the media. Got accused of being a Russian agent non stop.
 
Yet President Trump still has better poll numbers than the previous president at this point in their terms.
Now that gives some perspective.
 

You're forgetting Fox News.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[mogandave]

You're forgetting Fox News.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Since the regime change Fox is more and more like all the other networks.

Fox was never very hard on President Obama.

Don’t forget all the late night “comedy” shows...

[mogandave]

 
High fees mean Government loans are almost never enough and most have to resort to private loans as well. It’s a pretty big business.
 
Trump Shuttle!

So you don’t think the government pumping money into secondary education has anything to do with the cost doubling since they took over the loan business.

In any event, I believe we have too many non STEM collage graduates now, and I don’t see how further funding it on the backs of the taxpayers benefits the country.

[mogandave]

The experience in every other developed country says otherwise.

Yes, I hear that on CNN all the time.

[mogandave]

 
There’s no perfect system. Societies continuously tweak their systems for many reasons. Sometimes they end up making it better, sometimes worse. Most metrics tell us that the US health system is performing poorly in relation to other developed countries. It makes sense to learn from others’ success.
 

What metrics?

[lannarebirth]

3 hours ago, Thakkar said:

The experience in every other developed country says otherwise.

I think you're both right. Public/Private partnerships as practiced in the US, only serve to channel huge portions of the government treasury into the hands of the private sector. And with no caps on lobbying any legislation to reign in costs never even gets started. Really, what's need is to put the private healthcare insurers out of business as it pertains to general healthcare and have it available only as a supplementary type of care over and above a comprehensive healthcare system for all.

[Thakkar]

7 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

So you don’t think the government pumping money into secondary education has anything to do with the cost doubling since they took over the loan business.

In any event, I believe we have too many non STEM collage graduates now, and I don’t see how further funding it on the backs of the taxpayers benefits the country.
 

 

 

All the more reason for government to fund universities directly instead of in this convoluted manner. That way the government get a say on fees. Individual Universities are of course free to reject the money (and some will, many of the elite ones). Qualifying students that want to attend those will not have government loans (because nobody will have government loans)  but can trying getting scholarships, because it’s the universities that want *them*

[Thakkar]

7 hours ago, mogandave said:

9 hours ago, Thakkar said:

The experience in every other developed country says otherwise.

 

Yes, I hear that on CNN all the time

 

 

There are sources other than television news. If you are genuinely interested in unbiased facts and data, try “Our World in data” — reliable data, clear cut explanations, interactive charts and links to raw data you can check for yourself. They have a section on health, including country comparisons on expenses vs outcomes. 

 

https://ourworldindata.org/health-meta

 

There’s also the non-profit started by former Microsoft CEO, Steve Balmer that collects US government data and publishes a yearly reports laying the info out in clear, easy to understand manner. The report is very skim friendly. https://static.usafacts.org/public/annual-report/2019/USAFacts_2019_Annual_Report.pdf

 

it’s just been released, so I haven’t had a close look yet. It’s useful to have around when trying to form one’s own opinion about things.

 

I’m neither Right nor Left. I go where the data, compassion, empathy, reason and logic take me on individual issues. Currently, on many issues, they happen to be taking me left of centre. On the issue of healthcare in America, they are taking me so far left, I can see the guillotine in the distance and can imagine healthcare industry millionaires, their lobbyists and the politicians they’ve bought lined up behind it. 

[lannarebirth]

1 hour ago, Thakkar said:

 

There are sources other than television news. If you are genuinely interested in unbiased facts and data, try “Our World in data” — reliable data, clear cut explanations, interactive charts and links to raw data you can check for yourself. They have a section on health, including country comparisons on expenses vs outcomes. 

 

https://ourworldindata.org/health-meta

 

There’s also the non-profit started by former Microsoft CEO, Steve Balmer that collects US government data and publishes a yearly reports laying the info out in clear, easy to understand manner. The report is very skim friendly. https://static.usafacts.org/public/annual-report/2019/USAFacts_2019_Annual_Report.pdf

 

it’s just been released, so I haven’t had a close look yet. It’s useful to have around when trying to form one’s own opinion about things.

 

I’m neither Right nor Left. I go where the data, compassion, empathy, reason and logic take me on individual issues. Currently, on many issues, they happen to be taking me left of centre. On the issue of healthcare in America, they are taking me so far left, I can see the guillotine in the distance and can imagine healthcare industry millionaires, their lobbyists and the politicians they’ve bought lined up behind it. 

 

It's sad to think that one must be considered an extremist to wish that the tax dollars we spend might be used in a manner that actually benefits our neighbors and ourselves.

[utalkin2me]

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

No, Biden is nothing at all like Michael Jackson. We'll have to agree to disagree. I find your obsession with falsely accusing Joe Biden of being a pedo to be bizarre, unfounded, and ridiculous. We can end this exchange now. 

You have a very convenient habit of stating things the person you are replying to did not state. I did not say Biden was "like Michael Jackson", did I? I did not accuse Biden of being a pedo, did I? 

 

And, why do you keep saying Trump would make a better president than Biden?! ... you see how silly it is to just come out and state things another person did not say?! 

[stevenl]

21 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

You have a very convenient habit of stating things the person you are replying to did not state. I did not say Biden was "like Michael Jackson", did I? I did not accuse Biden of being a pedo, did I? 

 

And, why do you keep saying Trump would make a better president than Biden?! ... you see how silly it is to just come out and state things another person did not say?! 

Well, you can't be surprised, after all you made the comparison with Michael Jackson.

[mogandave]

 
It's sad to think that one must be considered an extremist to wish that the tax dollars we spend might be used in a manner that actually benefits our neighbors and ourselves.

It’s sad to think that one side thinks the other does not want to spend tax dollars in a manner that actually benefits our neighbors and ourselves.

The left thinks (or at least claims) the right is evil and wants to starve children.

The right thinks the left are generally well intended fools.

I believe a government takeover of medicine and or secondary education will neither improve quality nor reduce costs. I believe it will increase costs, reduce quality and stifle innovation.

Of course it will only increase costs for tax payers, not for tax recipients. As always, the tax recipients will be the people that actually get it “free”.

[mogandave]

 
Most metrics tell us that the US health system is performing poorly in relation to other developed countries. It makes sense to learn from others’ success.

What metrics?

What country do you believe has the current best model to learn from?

[lannarebirth]

Anyone who operates a business tries to maximize expenses and minimize income for the purposes of mitigating tax expenditures, Operating loss carry forwards are the holy grail as far as operating a business is concerned. That said, there are lines you can't cross and lines you shouldn't cross, so as it is with so many things, it's all in the details.

[Thakkar]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

 

It’s sad to think that one side thinks the other does not want to spend tax dollars in a manner that actually benefits our neighbors and ourselves.

The left thinks (or at least claims) the right is evil and wants to starve children.

The right thinks the left are generally well intended fools.

I believe a government takeover of medicine and or secondary education will neither improve quality nor reduce costs. I believe it will increase costs, reduce quality and stifle innovation.

Of course it will only increase costs for tax payers, not for tax recipients. As always, the tax recipients will be the people that actually get it “free”.

 

 

 

Low income folks don’t pay taxes because they simply don’t earn enough. They do pay sales tax and various other hidden taxes. Their low salaries benefit their bosses, who thus make higher profits, which is what leads to the bosses paying tax on *some* of that extra earning.

 

Everybody, in one way or another, directly or indirectly, contributes to government revenue and the smooth functioning of societies in which we all swim.

 

The notion that the poor are “takers” is a fallacy.

 

There are certainly some scroungers in every society—among the poor, as well as the rich. What the poor take is nothing compared to what the Rich take. A billionaire requires millions to satisfy his greed, while a deadbeat couch potato would be happy to rip the government off for a few hundred bucks.

 

Anyone working a full time job should be earning enough to feed and house themselves. Walmart employees surviving on food stamps is not a subsidy to the workers, but to the Billionaire Walmart family who can get away with paying less because the government covers the balance so their employees don’t starve and thus have the energy to do the work that allows Walmart to operate. I haven’t studies Walmart’s taxes, but, if everything is taken into account, I wouldn’t be surprised to find that they get back more than they contribute.

 

The fact that the US has a $22T deficit (maybe $15T, if you take out the cost of wars) WHILE AT THE SAME TIME crumbling infrastructure, low wage teachers, an abysmal healthcare system, run down schools, *no* free college education, terrible public housing, high levels of homelessness and poverty (especially the unforgivable child poverty) compared to other advanced countries, is proof that the rich are takers, while the poor, through their suffering, are the givers.

 

[Thakkar]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

What metrics?

What country do you believe has the current best model to learn from?

 

 

It would take a book to answer your Q.

 

Please do your own comparisons, starting with the basic data:

https://ourworldindata.org/health-meta

 

Every developed country, and many developing ones have variously solved the many healthcare issues the US is grappling with. They continue to tweak their systems, because no system is ever perfect. The US, meanwhile, apart from the heroic but far from adequate attempts made by the ACA, has done virtually nothing for decades to deal with the problems.

 

 

[utalkin2me]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

Well, you can't be surprised, after all you made the comparison with Michael Jackson.

I compared people who would leave their children alone with the guy in the video below to those who left their kids with M. Jackson before any allegations. You see and understand how there are no accusations of pedophilia? Just a person stating it is probably not good to leave your children alone with him. Would you leave your kid alone with him?? You decide... 

 

Edited May 8, 2019 by utalkin2me

[lannarebirth]

2 hours ago, Thakkar said:

 

It would take a book to answer your Q.

 

Please do your own comparisons, starting with the basic data:

https://ourworldindata.org/health-meta

 

Every developed country, and many developing ones have variously solved the many healthcare issues the US is grappling with. They continue to tweak their systems, because no system is ever perfect. The US, meanwhile, apart from the heroic but far from adequate attempts made by the ACA, has done virtually nothing for decades to deal with the problems.

 

 

 

Here's where our paths diverge. I understand why you think why the ACA was "heroic", because many people with no coverage previously were suddenly "covered". The untold story is that millions of people that were previously covered through their own means were suddenly paying triple thier old premiums for way inferior coverage. It was a horrible piece of legislation that was anything but "heroic"; especially given complete control of the executive and legislative branches. It was failures like this, of Democrats failing to be Democrats , that gave us Trump.

 

[mogandave]

 
It would take a book to answer your Q.
 

Yes, they’re always too many to come up with a few.

[Thakkar]

1 hour ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Here's where our paths diverge. I understand why you think why the ACA was "heroic", because many people with no coverage previously were suddenly "covered". The untold story is that millions of people that were previously covered through their own means were suddenly paying triple thier old premiums for way inferior coverage. It was a horrible piece of legislation that was anything but "heroic"; especially given complete control of the executive and legislative branches. It was failures like this, of Democrats failing to be Democrats , that gave us Trump.

 

I actually agree that Obama & his team screwed up here with a huge missed opportunity. They made the very early decision, despite having majorities in both houses, to bring some Republicans on board with this, hoping, I think, this would lay a solid bipartisan foundation for future improvements. Thus starting on the wrong foot (in my view) with The Heritage Foundation adopted by Romny’s administration in Mas. Republicans (like Snowe and others) led them on, proposing tweaks, amendments, additions and removals. Obama obliged by incorporating many of their proposals. In the end, they didn’t give the plan a single vote. 

 

I can understand why Obama chose this cooperative path, having campaigned on hope and change and “we are not a red America or a Blue America, but the United States of America (or something like that). 

I unapologetically think (in hindsight) that this is a promise (that is, to be compromising) he should’ve broken. Perhaps that would’ve been more heroic. Though futile as it may not have passed due to uncooperative corporate dems. 

 

Now let’s try and imagine the first black president who many on the right had already begun calling “a thug” walking into the WHITEhouse in his first months with his big swinging black dick saying, “elections have consequences; I don’t care what the republicans want. I’ll do what I want”

 

Trump, even with his marginal (and, some might say, questionable) election win can and does get away with this, but would Obama have? And what kind of example would he be this setting for all those minority kids who now, perhaps for the first time, aspire to be president? Would Corey Booker even be running today?

 

Discarding the benefits of hindsight, I believe Obama did the best he could under the circumstances. I agree however, that “heroic” is probably too strong a descriptor. 

 

I also agree that Democrats’ collective meekness over many years is ONE reason for Trump. There are many others. Americans have been building towards a know-nothing, faux religious, bombastic, Incompetent, vindictive, corrupt, greedy, mentally unstable, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, traitorous constantly lying egomaniacal twobit grifting car salesman for many years. It was only a matter of time, unless the demographic changes underway reached maturity first. It didn’t, and we have Trump.

 

[lannarebirth]

29 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

I actually agree that Obama & his team screwed up here with a huge missed opportunity. They made the very early decision, despite having majorities in both houses, to bring some Republicans on board with this, hoping, I think, this would lay a solid bipartisan foundation for future improvements. Thus starting on the wrong foot (in my view) with The Heritage Foundation adopted by Romny’s administration in Mas. Republicans (like Snowe and others) led them on, proposing tweaks, amendments, additions and removals. Obama obliged by incorporating many of their proposals. In the end, they didn’t give the plan a single vote. 

 

I can understand why Obama chose this cooperative path, having campaigned on hope and change and “we are not a red America or a Blue America, but the United States of America (or something like that). 

I unapologetically think (in hindsight) that this is a promise (that is, to be compromising) he should’ve broken. Perhaps that would’ve been more heroic. Though futile as it may not have passed due to uncooperative corporate dems. 

 

Now let’s try and imagine the first black president who many on the right had already begun calling “a thug” walking into the WHITEhouse in his first months with his big swinging black dick saying, “elections have consequences; I don’t care what the republicans want. I’ll do what I want”

 

Trump, even with his marginal (and, some might say, questionable) election win can and does get away with this, but would Obama have? And what kind of example would he be this setting for all those minority kids who now, perhaps for the first time, aspire to be president? Would Corey Booker even be running today?

 

Discarding the benefits of hindsight, I believe Obama did the best he could under the circumstances. I agree however, that “heroic” is probably too strong a descriptor. 

 

I also agree that Democrats’ collective meekness over many years is ONE reason for Trump. There are many others. Americans have been building towards a know-nothing, faux religious, bombastic, Incompetent, vindictive, corrupt, greedy, mentally unstable, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, traitorous constantly lying egomaniacal twobit grifting car salesman for many years. It was only a matter of time, unless the demographic changes underway reached maturity first. It didn’t, and we have Trump.

 

 

That is an extremely charitable take on history. The fact is Obama did exactly as he was elected to do, which was virtually nothing. An, intelligent (not Bill Clinton intelligent), likable and charismatic fellow who didn't have a single idea in his entire tenure that advanced the interests of the average American citizen. He reminded me of Robert Redford's character in "The Candidate". Not an ounce of "greatness" there. I'm not sure that there are any "great", "bold", deliberate agents of change anymore. Trump's an agent of change, and in the end it will probably turn out alright, but that may be decades away and after we bounce off the bottom. I'd much rather it didn't happen this way.

Edited May 8, 2019 by lannarebirth

[johnnybangkok]

7 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

That is an extremely charitable take on history. The fact is Obama did exactly as he was elected to do, which was virtually nothing. An, intelligent, likable and charismatic fellow who didn't have a single idea in his entire tenure that advanced the interests of the average American citizen. He reinded me of Robert Redford's character in "The Candidate". Not an ounce of "greatness" there. I'm not sure that there are any "great", "bold", deliberate agents of change anymore. Trump's an agent of change, and in the end it will probably turn ot alright, but that may be decades away and after we bounce off the bottom. I'd much rather it didn't happen this way.

And this is a very biased view of history.

'who didn't have a single idea in his entire tenure that advanced the interests of the average American citizen.' What you actually mean was 'who had lots of great ideas but was hampered and stopped at every term by a hugely hostile Republican party. 

Mitch McConnell is famously quoted as saying the top priority for Republicans was to make Obama a one term president; Newt Gingrich openly admitted that it was GOP policy to block Obama's policies 'at every opportunity', forcing Obama to revert to executive powers to get anything done. Jesus, Republicans wouldn't even discuss Obama's supreme court nomination Merrick Garland, with McConnell again famously saying "One of my proudest moments was when I looked Barack Obama in the eye and I said, 'Mr. President, you will not fill the Supreme Court vacancy.'  

Any ineffectiveness coming from Obama was certainly not down to a lack of ideas but more a concerted effort by the Republican Party to stop anything this man did, regardless of whether it was good for the American people or not. That's what makes it all so disgusting.  

[lannarebirth]

10 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

And this is a very biased view of history.

'who didn't have a single idea in his entire tenure that advanced the interests of the average American citizen.' What you actually mean was 'who had lots of great ideas but was hampered and stopped at every term by a hugely hostile Republican party. 

Mitch McConnell is famously quoted as saying the top priority for Republicans was to make Obama a one term president; Newt Gingrich openly admitted that it was GOP policy to block Obama's policies 'at every opportunity', forcing Obama to revert to executive powers to get anything done. Jesus, Republicans wouldn't even discuss Obama's supreme court nomination Merrick Garland, with McConnell again famously saying "One of my proudest moments was when I looked Barack Obama in the eye and I said, 'Mr. President, you will not fill the Supreme Court vacancy.'  

Any ineffectiveness coming from Obama was certainly not down to a lack of ideas but more a concerted effort by the Republican Party to stop anything this man did, regardless of whether it was good for the American people or not. That's what makes it all so disgusting.  

 

Can you give me some examples of Obama's "Great Society" that the Republicans thwarted? 40 years earlier he'd have been running on the Republican ticket with his "platform", whatever that was..Remember when "My administration is the only thing standing between you and the pitchforks"? He ran interference for Wall St. to the detriment of the American popukace. None of them went to jail. Democratic coffers filled, America noticed, and we now have the current a-hole.

 

As Bill Bellichek likes to say "Do Your Job". That's a winning strategy.

Edited May 8, 2019 by lannarebirth

[Thakkar]

2 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Yes, they’re always too many to come up with a few.

 

If you really care about facts, not partisan ideologies, then begin by checking out the health section of “our world in data” to identify the developed countries performing better than America (that would be all of them), then study their systems. Then write a book explaining how America has nothing to learn from any of them. When you’ve done that, send me a link—I’d buy that book, just for laughs.

[Thakkar]

1 hour ago, lannarebirth said:

 

That is an extremely charitable take on history. The fact is Obama did exactly as he was elected to do, which was virtually nothing

Forgive me, but I don’t know how to have a discussion with such a broad and empty generalization in response to my very specific and historically accurate points.

[lannarebirth]

10 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

Forgive me, but I don’t know how to have a discussion with such a broad and empty generalization in response to my very specific and historically accurate points.

Tell me again how the Republicans thwarted Universal Healthcare when they were in the minority of both houses and didnt hold the presidency? If every Republican voted against it, it would have still passed, so how is it the Republicans fault we don't now have universal healthcare these past 10 years?

[mogandave]

If you really care about facts, not partisan ideologies, then begin by checking out the health section of “our world in data” to identify the developed countries performing better than America (that would be all of them), then study their systems. Then write a book explaining how America has nothing to learn from any of them. When you’ve done that, send me a link—I’d buy that book, just for laughs.

If you don’t know, just say you don’t know, no point in drawing it out.

So I think it safe to say that your “metrics” line is just a talking point you have regurgitated, yes?

[mogandave]

 
I’m neither Right nor Left. I go where the data, compassion, empathy, reason and logic take me on individual issues.

I am exactly the same, neither right or left, just going with the data. So I always find is suspect when I get inundated with conclusions that are stated as facts, and links provided rather than a short-list from someone that he’s indeed studied the data.

[Thakkar]

11 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

If you don’t know, just say you don’t know, no point in drawing it out.

So I think it safe to say that your “metrics” line is just a talking point you have regurgitated, yes?
 

 

Look at the data at that link.

look at the outcomes vs expenditure and please explain to us how America, spending more and achieving less has nothing to learn from countries spending less and achieving more.

[johnnybangkok]

1 hour ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Can you give me some examples of Obama's "Great Society" that the Republicans thwarted? 40 years earlier he'd have been running on the Republican ticket with his "platform", whatever that was..Remember when "My administration is the only thing standing between you and the pitchforks"? He ran interference for Wall St. to the detriment of the American popukace. None of them went to jail. Democratic coffers filled, America noticed, and we now have the current a-hole.

 

As Bill Bellichek likes to say "Do Your Job". That's a winning strategy.

Democratic Stimulus Package - Blocked by Republicans

Tax on companies that ship jobs overseas - Blocked by Republicans

Political ads disclosure Bill - Blocked by Republicans

The Small Business jobs Act - Blocked by Republicans

The Dream Act - Blocked by Republicans

Repeal of Don't Ask, don't tell - Blocked by Republicans

Anti Rape Amendment - Blocked by Republicans

Benefits for Homeless Veterans - Blocked by Republicans

Health Care for 9/11 first responders - Blocked by Republicans

The Jobs Bill - Blocked by Republicans

Wall Street Reform - Blocked by Republicans

American Recovery & Reinvestment Act - Blocked by Republicans

Oil Spill Liability - Blocked by Republicans

Immigration Reform - Blocked by Republicans

Unemployment Extension Bill HR4213 - Blocked by Republicans

Fair Pay Act - Blocked by Republicans

 

The list goes on to over 500 blocks of legislation and of course the famous non-approval of a Supreme Court judge (Twice) but I think you get the idea. 

This is a good article about how it all came about   https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/12/republican-party-obstructionism-victory-trump-214498