"fan-zahn" Connection

[Richard W]

I've separated this topic from the discussion of 'na'.

I think the claim that Thai fan (ฟัน) and German Zahn 'tooth' are related might have a very simple explanation.

Thai than (ทันต์) and German Zahn 'tooth' are related. Suppose someone wrote, "Thai tan 'tooth' is related to German Zahn." Now, my pocket dictionary does not list ทันต์. Therefore the true satement could very easily have been miscorrected to "Thai fan 'tooth' is related to German Zahn".

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

Hmm, *could* well be. I have nothing to counter that.

[snowleopard]

I think the claim that Thai fan (ฟัน) and German Zahn 'tooth' are related might have a very simple explanation.

Thai than (ทันต์) and German Zahn 'tooth' are related. Suppose someone wrote, "Thai tan 'tooth' is related to German Zahn." Now, my pocket dictionary does not list ทันต์

Both the words ฟัน and ทันต์ are Thai for tooth!

I think ฟัน is probably related to "fang"; while ทันต์ is more related to tooth!

The English word "fang" seems to have come from the Old High German word "fang" which means "seizure"(to seize prey with the teeth)and earlier it was probably the Latin word "pangere=fasten"which in turn was derived from Sanskrit "pans" meaning "noose"!

(Apart from "fasten",Latin "pangere" seems to be akin to both the word"peace"and the word "pact"too!Fasten the peace with a pact! )

On the other hand, the word "tooth" seems to have come from the Old High German word "zand"

Before "zand" there was probably the Latin word "dent" which we today use in "dentist and dentistry".

"Dent" seems to have been preceded by and come from the Greek word "odontos" from which we get "odontology"!

Fang means เขี้ยว in Thai;and, เขี้ยว can then be translated back into English as canine tooth!

The definition of เขี้ยว is:

ฟันแบบนี้คือฟันแหลมคมสำหรับฉีกเนื้อเมื่อกินอาหารอยู่ ฟันพวกนี้อยู่ระหว่างฟันหน้ากับกราม=

This kind of tooth is pointed and sharp.It is used for meat-eating.These teeth are located between the front teeth(incisors) and molars.

"ทันต์"(tooth) as it is used in the word "ทันตแพทย์"(dentist) sounds even closer to the Swedish word "tand" than the German zahn!

The Swedish word "tand" which means "tooth" would in fact be pronounced the same as its Thai counterpart without the "garan"mark above ต!

ฟัน can also be used with the word "doctor" to mean dentist!

Tooth doctor=หมอฟัน=dentist=ทันตแพทย์!

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[Richard W]

You use 'come from' far too much when you just mean 'is related to'. Sometimes its use is to be licensed, when the relationship is not mother-daughter but aunt-niece, and the mother is ill documented or undocumented. Examples of this licence are Sanskrit-Pali, Classical Latin-French, and 'Anglo-Saxon'-English. (By 'Anglo-Saxon' I mean the standard, West Saxon pre-conquest form, as opposed to the Anglian, more precisely East Midlands, form that prevailed post-conquest.) I think Old High German and Modern German is another such acceptable pair.

I think the ฟัน - "fang" link, presumably implicitly Proto-Tai *van v. Pre-PIE **pen-h2eg, is unlikely, but I'm not sure. I suspect the 'n' in 'fang' is merely an infix rather than the remains of the original root. What are the theories on the origin of Proto-Tai *v? One of the difficulties is that there are few serious theories connecting the Daic languages with the Nostratic languages. Even Austronesian-Nostratic links are thin on the ground.

[RamdomChances]

Sorry is this a serious disscussion or are you all trying to show how clever you are?

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

Sorry is this a serious disscussion or are you all trying to show how clever you are?

If this is beyond your level of comprehension, why not stick to the more "fun" sections of this site?

[taxexile]

if its beyond your intelligence then just leave.

[RamdomChances]

I"m sorry if i affended you intelectual masters.

I was just asking the question???

pom tham chuy chuy ok krap

[snowleopard]

You use 'come from' far too much when you just mean 'is related to'.  Sometimes its use is to be licensed, when the relationship is not mother-daughter but aunt-niece, and the mother is ill documented or undocumented.  Examples of this licence are Sanskrit-Pali, Classical Latin-French, and 'Anglo-Saxon'-English.  (By 'Anglo-Saxon' I mean the standard, West Saxon pre-conquest form, as opposed to the Anglian, more precisely East Midlands, form that prevailed post-conquest.)  I think Old High German and Modern German is another such acceptable pair.

I think the ฟัน - "fang" link, presumably implicitly Proto-Tai *van v. Pre-PIE **pen-h2eg, is unlikely, but I'm not sure.  I suspect the 'n' in 'fang' is merely an infix rather than the remains of the original root.  What are the theories on the origin of Proto-Tai *v?  One of the difficulties is that there are few serious theories connecting the Daic languages with the Nostratic languages.  Even Austronesian-Nostratic links are thin on the ground.

You use 'come from' far too much

I never used "come from"!

I used "seems to come from" which makes a world of a difference for a discerning reader!

when you just mean 'is related to'.

How do you know what I mean when you obviously don't even want to comprehend my post correctly without trying to cause semantic misunderstandings "accidentally-on-purpose"?

You didn't really address any of my hypotheses!

You're not running from something now,are you?

As for the rest of your post,it's just a futile attempt of grandiloquent sophistry and it doesn't further our etymological understanding one single iota,but rather it gives us a cue as to where you,yourself,"come from"!

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[RamdomChances]

If this is beyond your level of comprehension, why not stick to the more "fun" sections of this site?

I did'nt say that i did'nt comprehend it just asked why you were doing it.

You dont know mwe you dont know my intelligence, so why take offens at a simple question? (unless it's true)

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

If this is beyond your level of comprehension, why not stick to the more "fun" sections of this site?

I did'nt say that i did'nt comprehend it just asked why you were doing it.

You dont know mwe you dont know my intelligence, so why take offens at a simple question? (unless it's true)

There happen to be people with an inquisitive mind.

If there weren't, you wouldn't have a computer to use, no car to drive, no plane to fly to Thailand with, and you'd have no decent books to read ...

Question answered?

[Richard W]

You use 'come from' far too much

I never used "come from"!

I used "seems to come from" which makes a world of a difference for a discerning reader!

when you just mean 'is related to'.

How do you know what I mean when you obviously don't even want to comprehend my post correctly without trying to cause semantic misunderstandings "accidentally-on-purpose"?

So what is the purpose of your comments comparing various Indo-European tooth words? They are well known to be related. The only loanwords you mentioned in this group are Thai ทันต์ and the English compounds of Latin dent-. Were you merely commenting that the similarities were clear? 'Seem' is often used as a short way of saying 'but I may be mistaken', and that is how I took it once I decided you were not playing word games.

The fang/peace family is real enough, or at least Pokorny has it in his masterwork under the entry pa:k^, pa:g^. (Unfortunately, this link goes down for days at a time.)

You didn't really address any of my hypotheses!

The connection with Thai ฟัน is not obvious. The word occurs throughout the Tai group, and the meaning 'tooth' is about the 21st most conservative when it comes to preserving its usual word across the generations. As the -n- in 'fang' is an infix, the resemblance begins to look like mere coincidence. But I looked hard for a way you might be right, though my bet would be that you are wrong. A more modern reconstruction of Pokorny's *pa:g^ is *paHg^, where the -Hg^ is a common enough ending in roots that it is suspected to be a suffix, indeed one that was in origin the independent root *Hag^ 'lead, drive', as in Latin agere > English agent, action.

It is generally accepted that Thai ฟ and ซ were originally voiced, partly because they are deliberately modified forms of the Indic letters for 'b' and 'j' (roughly as in judge), and partly because of the tones they are associated with.

Why do you think Thai ฟัน and English fang are related?

Were there any other hypotheses in your posting?

[Richard W]

Sorry is this a serious disscussion or are you all trying to show how clever you are?

I for one am hoping to be engaged in a serious discussion.

[snowleopard]

You use 'come from' far too much

I never used "come from"!

I used "seems to come from" which makes a world of a difference for a discerning reader!

when you just mean 'is related to'.

How do you know what I mean when you obviously don't even want to comprehend my post correctly without trying to cause semantic misunderstandings "accidentally-on-purpose"?

So what is the purpose of your comments comparing various Indo-European tooth words? They are well known to be related. The only loanwords you mentioned in this group are Thai ทันต์ and the English compounds of Latin dent-. Were you merely commenting that the similarities were clear? 'Seem' is often used as a short way of saying 'but I may be mistaken', and that is how I took it once I decided you were not playing word games.

The fang/peace family is real enough, or at least Pokorny has it in his masterwork under the entry pa:k^, pa:g^. (Unfortunately, this link goes down for days at a time.)

You didn't really address any of my hypotheses!

The connection with Thai ฟัน is not obvious. The word occurs throughout the Tai group, and the meaning 'tooth' is about the 21st most conservative when it comes to preserving its usual word across the generations. As the -n- in 'fang' is an infix, the resemblance begins to look like mere coincidence. But I looked hard for a way you might be right, though my bet would be that you are wrong. A more modern reconstruction of Pokorny's *pa:g^ is *paHg^, where the -Hg^ is a common enough ending in roots that it is suspected to be a suffix, indeed one that was in origin the independent root *Hag^ 'lead, drive', as in Latin agere > English agent, action.

It is generally accepted that Thai ฟ and ซ were originally voiced, partly because they are deliberately modified forms of the Indic letters for 'b' and 'j' (roughly as in judge), and partly because of the tones they are associated with.

Why do you think Thai ฟัน and English fang are related?

Were there any other hypotheses in your posting?

'Seem' is often used as a short way of saying 'but I may be mistaken', and that is how I took it once I decided you were not playing word games.

Here you go again Rickie!

(You know you were mistaken in your first assertion of my using "come from" in my other post;and now it's the word "seem" you attack semantically)

First you interpret a word in your own conveniently subjective way so you can get exactly the semantic meaning you desire;and then you project that definition onto me and try to claim that it's mine and that you know exactly what I meant to say!

Are you trying to put your words into my mouth so you can argue against them easier!

Get your own bearings straight,will you!

Why do you think Thai ฟัน and English fang are related?

Re-read my first post in this thread and the following info in this post and then you might see why!

You could begin by commenting on where the 3 different Thai words for tooth seem to have come from in your own opinion and why you think they aren't related to fang or tooth in English!Or if you do think they are somehow related, then how that relationship came to be!

A)FANG,CANINE TOOTH=ฟันเขี้ยว(fun keeoo)

B)TOOTH= ทันต์ (thun); ฟัน (fun),and now ทนต์ (thon)!

Here is some additional information.The third Thai word for tooth =" ทนต์ " can mean two different things!

1.ทนต์ (thon)=tooth

2.ทนต์(thon)=tusk;ivory (งา, งาช้าง)

Now let us take one more look at the Indo-European origins of 1)TOOTH=ทันต์,ฟัน,ทนต์;and then of, 2) FANG= ฟันเขี้ยว ;so we can establish that they are in fact two etymologically separate words.

Then we might get ourselves a working hypothesis for our further enlightenment!?

1.TOOTH

English=TOOTH;German=ZAHN;Swedish=TAND(pron=tund);Thai=ทันต์, ฟัน,ทนต์=THUN,FUN,THON;French=DENT;Spanish=DIENTE;

Tooth Etymology Middle English, from Old English toth. See dent.

WORD HISTORY:Eating, biting, teeth, and dentists are related not

only logically but etymologically; that is, the roots of the words

eat, tooth, and dentist have a common origin. The

Proto-Indo-European root *ed–, meaning “to eat” and the source of

our word eat, originally meant “to bite.” A participial form of *ed–

in this sense was *dent–, “biting,” which came to mean “tooth.” Our

word tooth comes from *dont–, a form of *dent–, with sound changes

that resulted in the Germanic word *tanthuz. This word became Old

English tOth and Modern English tooth. Meanwhile the

Proto-Indo-European form *dent– itself became in Latin dens (stem

dent–), “tooth,” from which is derived our word dentist. We find a

descendant of another Proto-Indo-European form *(o)dont– in the word

orthodontist.

Tooth=Dent

dent-

DEFINITION:Tooth. Originally 1d-ent-, “biting,” present participle

of ed- in the earlier meaning “to bite.” a) O-grade form *dont-.

tooth, from Old English tOth, tooth, from Germanic *tanthuz.

b)Zero-grade form *dt-. tusk, from Old English tUsc, tUx,

from Germanic *tunth-sk-. c) Full-grade form *dent-. dental,

dentate, denti-, denticle, dentist; dandelion, edentate, edentulous,

indent1, indenture, trident, from Latin dns (stem dent-), tooth. d)

O-grade variant form *dont-, ultimately becoming odont- in Greek.

–odon, –odont, odonto-; ceratodus, mastodon, from Greek odn, odous,

tooth

2.FANG

English=FANG,CANINE TOOTH;German=FANG;Swedish=GADD;Thai=ฟันเขี้ยว FUN KEE-OO;French=CROC;Spanish=COLMILLO

Fang Etymology

ETYMOLOGY:Middle English, booty, spoils, something seized, from Old

English. See pagI.

OTHER FORMS:fanged —ADJECTIVE

Indo-European Roots

ENTRY:pag-

DEFINITION:Also pak-. To fasten. Oldest forms *paG-, *paK-, becoming

*pag-, *pak- in centum languages.

Derivatives include fang, peace, pact, palisade, and travel.

1. Lengthened-grade form *pak-. fay1, from Old English fegan, to fit

closely, from Germanic *fogjan, to join, fit. 2. Nasalized form

*pa-n-g-, also *pa-n-k-. a. (i) fang, from Old English fang, feng,

plunder, booty, from Germanic *fangam, *fangiz; (ii) vang, from

Dutch vangen, to catch, from remade Germanic verb *fangan; (iii)

newfangled, from Middle English *-fangel, taken, akin to Old High

German -fangolon, to close, from Germanic *fangln, to grasp.

(i)–(iii) all derivatives of Germanic *fanhan, to seize; b.

compact1, impact, impinge, spinto, from Latin pangere, to fasten. 3.

Root form *pk-. a. pace2, pax, pay1, peace; appease, pacific,

pacify, from Latin px, peace (< “a binding together by treaty or

agreement”); b. pact, patio, from Latin pacsc, to agree. 4. Suffixed

form *pak-slo-. a. pale1, palisade, pawl, peel3, pole2; impale,

travail, travel, from Latin plus, stake (fixed in the ground); b.

probably Latin pla, spade: palette, peel2. 5. Lengthened-grade form

*pAg-. a. pagan, peasant, from Latin pAgus, “boundary staked out on

the ground,” district, village, country; b. page1, pageant, from

Latin pAgina, “trellis to which a row of vines is fixed,” hence (by

metaphor) column of writing, page; c. propagate, from Latin prOpAgAre,

to propagate (< “to fix before”; prO-, before, in front; see per1);

d. pectin, pegmatite; Areopagus, mastopexy, from Greek pEgnunai, to

fasten, coagulate, with derivative pagos (< *pag-o-), mass, hill.

Definition of Fang

NOUN:1. Any of the hollow or grooved teeth of a venomous snake with

which it injects its poison. 2. Any of the canine teeth of a

carnivorous animal, such as a dog or wolf, with which it seizes and

tears its prey. 3. A long, sharp, pointed tooth, especially a canine

tooth. 4. The root of a tooth or a pronglike division of such a

root. 5. A fanglike structure, especially a chelicera of a venomous

snake.

OTHER FORMS:fanged —ADJECTIVE

Considering the above information,I think it is plausible that the word "tooth" is related to ทันต์,ทนต์(thun,thon);while the word "fang" is related to ฟัน ;but I will keep an open mind on the matter because I realize that the jury is still out on this one!

If you are sure of the contrary ,please provide some valuable information to back that up;but don't just say you bet I'm wrong because you looked so hard!

Anybody else who wanna throw their two cents' worth into the discussion,are also welcome to do so!

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[Richard W]

Now let us take one more look at the Indo-European origins of 1)TOOTH=ทันต์,ฟัน,ทนต์;and then of, 2) FANG= ฟันเขี้ยว ;so we can establish that they are in fact two etymologically separate words.

Then we might get ourselves a working hypothesis for our further enlightenment!?

1.TOOTH

English=TOOTH;German=ZAHN;Swedish=TAND(pron=tund);Thai=ทันต์, ฟัน,ทนต์=THUN,FUN,THON;French=DENT;Spanish=DIENTE;

Tooth Etymology  Middle English, from Old English toth. See dent.

Are you quoting some dictionary, and if so which one? I have no doubt that Thai ทันต์ and ทนต์ come from Sanskrit or Pali. In the very first post in this topic I said:

Thai than (ทันต์) and German Zahn 'tooth' are related.

I have some minor issues with the details of the account of the development from Proto-Indo-European (PIE) - understanding has progressed beyond the account you give.

As to the relatedness of ฟัน and fang, consider the origin of the latter:

Nasalized form *pa-n-g-, also *pa-n-k-.

If we subtract the nasal infix, we are left with *pag, *pak. You are then left with a match of one consonant: Proto-Tai *v with PIE *p and one vowel: Proto-Tai *a with PIE *a.

A modern analysis of the root would reconstruct *paHg, *paHk (> pa:g, pa:k) for the normal grade, and *pHg, *pHk (> pag, pak except in Indo-Iranian) for the reduced grade, where H is the a-coloured laryngeal. *paHg could equally well be *peHg or *poHg - the a-coloured laryngeal neutralises the distinction of the vowels. We are then left with little more than a match of Proto-Tai *v with PIE *p and a similarity of meaning, which is not very promising. It looks no better than Thai บ้าน and English barn did at first sight. I can rephrase this by saying that ฟัน and fang are as related as ฟัน and pole. The evidence that they are related is weak, and no better than may be adduced for clearly unrelated pairs.

By comparison, one could wonder if English die and Thai ตาย 'die' were related. One can trace them back to Proto-Germanic *daujan and Proto-Tai *traai. At that point I would conclude that they were probably unrelated.

Sometimes the possibility of a connection has to be left open, as in English 'mare' and Thai ม้า 'horse'. The route here is that English and Tocharian inherited the word from PIE, and then Tocharian lent it to Chinese, which in turn lent it to Thai.

I am well aware that the relatedness of English chukka and wheel, or of Thai จักร 'discus, machine' and English wheel is far from obvious at first sight.