Pattaya Bar/Go-Go Death Watch

[Morch]

 

13 hours ago, Bullie said:

Plenty of examples from the last century. France took parts of Germany, repeatedly. Russia took a part of Poland after WW II, and still retains some. Russia annexed the Krim, recently. China took Tibet, claiming it used to belong forever. Countries, especially in Africa, were and are continuously shifting borders and declaring independency. Think Pakistan and India, Sri lanka.

The State of Israel has thousands of years old claims on the land,  as evidenced by the old testament. There is much to be said for legitimacy.

 

Besides: reality and necessity trump legality every time. Being surrounded by arab nations that for the most part are still !! out on the complete annihilation of Israel it would be suicide to give up the Golan hights at this time, or any time until the arabs finally give up on their hatred of the Jews.

And we all know when that is going to happen.

 

Yes, and the common thread here is that such things are generally frowned upon, rather than embraced by the international community. There are differences, as said, with regard to addressing them. So no matter how you see it, not really much agreement internationally.

 

[Morch]

5 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Not possible for Palestinians to make Palestine prosperous. From the beginning of the occupation Israel passed laws and administered existing ones that made it virtually impossible for Palestinians to prosper. Instead, it made them a captive labor force.

 

That's the old line about how the Palestinians cannot be held accountable for anything, and how Israel is responsible for anything. It's also the usual application of absolutes, while disregarding more complex realities.

 

Agenda and spins aside, it cannot all be pinned on the Israeli occupation. Palestinian history doesn't start there, even.

 

It serves your "argument" to present things as absolutes. It's all Israel's fault. The Palestinians are either prosperous or not prosperous. It is "impossible". They are "captive labor force".  Are the Palestinians less prosperous than they would have been otherwise? Do Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip or other parts of the ME prosper (or fail to) in the manner and at the same level? 

 

There are cases of other groups managing better under ongoing oppression and persecution.

[Morch]

 

@candide

 

Yes, there's that, and fair enough to criticize Israel over such practices. But it didn't happen overnight, and did not come about in a vacuum. What is absent from many posters' "accounts" are commentary and discussion on the Palestinians' response. Not as in "rights", "struggle" and "resistance" - but rather more about adapting, creating national level frameworks and infrastructures for the future. That sort of thing. Not much words about how such policies benefit segments of Palestinian society and leadership either.

 

 

 

 

[Bullie]

22 hours ago, candide said:

The people who use this argument are usually the same who state that Palestinians should forget what they used to own 70 years ago.....

And my great-grandfathers bicycle was stolen by the Germans 80 years ago. They still refuse to give it back. What's your point?

Edited June 12, 2019 by Bullie

[Bullie]

9 hours ago, Morch said:

 

 

Yes, and the common thread here is that such things are generally frowned upon, rather than embraced by the international community. There are differences, as said, with regard to addressing them. So no matter how you see it, not really much agreement internationally.

 

Half the world's borders are in dispute. Life is unfair. Agreement internationally is a dog without teeth. Top dog wins.

[observer90210]

What Palestine needs to prosper,  is a devoted, honest and uncorrupted leader like...Bibi (Netanyahu)

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Bullie said:

Half the world's borders are in dispute. Life is unfair. Agreement internationally is a dog without teeth. Top dog wins.

 

"Half the world's borders are in dispute".

 

Doubt that's correct or based on anything concrete.

 

International agreements aren't perfect, but many do work - even if less so than wished for. Even if your wide brush comment was correct, then seems like your global vision is more along the lines of constant conflict and wars. I think that there are better options. And "top dog" - that would apply to the USA, China and Russia (India too, perhaps, in certain situations) - and they can get away with quite a bit. Israel is not a "top dog" on a global scale.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, observer90210 said:

What Palestine needs to prosper,  is a devoted, honest and uncorrupted leader like...Bibi (Netanyahu)

 

What some posters need to do is get themselves informed on Palestinians leadership and corruption, before posting nonsense one-liners.

[bristolboy]

12 hours ago, Morch said:

 

That's the old line about how the Palestinians cannot be held accountable for anything, and how Israel is responsible for anything. It's also the usual application of absolutes, while disregarding more complex realities.

 

Agenda and spins aside, it cannot all be pinned on the Israeli occupation. Palestinian history doesn't start there, even.

 

It serves your "argument" to present things as absolutes. It's all Israel's fault. The Palestinians are either prosperous or not prosperous. It is "impossible". They are "captive labor force".  Are the Palestinians less prosperous than they would have been otherwise? Do Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip or other parts of the ME prosper (or fail to) in the manner and at the same level? 

 

There are cases of other groups managing better under ongoing oppression and persecution.

Name some. And let's see how their situations compare.

[Sujo]

Would be nice if Israel started by declaring what their border actually is.

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Name some. And let's see how their situations compare.

 

I'm sure you'd love to be given the chance to derail yet another topic with endless arguments over specifics of side issues. Dully noted you did your thing (again), where you pick the last relevant bit of a post, and try to transform it into a core argument. Not feeling the need to indulge, and really - not too hard to figure out.

Try harder.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Would be nice if Israel started by declaring what their border actually is.

 

Would be nice if posters making this tired old comment will realize Israel does have agreed upon borders with some of its neighbors. These would be the ones who signed peace agreements and such. It would also  be nice if posters going on about this would raise the same issue with regard to the Palestinian side (or rather, sides). Not holding my breath on either.

 

And, of course, not quite what the OP is about.

[observer90210]

19 hours ago, Morch said:

 

What some posters need to do is get themselves informed on Palestinians leadership and corruption, before posting nonsense one-liners.

relax dear fellow...you are getting to upset for nothing....and perhaps better to have a one line nonsense liner instead of a 3 line nonsense post?????