Thai Citizenship - How Do I Get An "age Of Majority" Document

[TomInThailand]

So, after speaking with an influential friend, I have decided to attempt the process of acquiring Thai citizenship. Most of the documents are quite straight forward, however 1 in particular is very confusing.

I have seen 2 different translations for this. It has been called "a document guaranteeing the applicant has reach the age of majority" and somewhere else has been translated as "a document certifying legal competence of the applicant". In either case, it must be signed by the embassy.

Can anyone explain what this actually is? Since I currently hold American citizenship, can anyone suggest what this document would be at the U.S. Embassy? I can sign an affadavit affirming that I am of legal age. Is that sufficient?

The U.S. is complicated in that the age of majority is determined by the state, not by the federal government, so how can the U.S. Embassy certify something that is really determined by an individual state? It seems impossible.

Nobody can seem to provide me with any useful information here. Has anyone on this list ever gone through this process? What do I need to do to fulfil this requirement?

Any advice/help would be appreciated. Hoping someone out there might be able to point me in the right direction.

Thanks.

[mpdkorat]

So, after speaking with an influential friend, I have decided to attempt the process of acquiring Thai citizenship. Most of the documents are quite straight forward, however 1 in particular is very confusing.

I have seen 2 different translations for this. It has been called "a document guaranteeing the applicant has reach the age of majority" and somewhere else has been translated as "a document certifying legal competence of the applicant". In either case, it must be signed by the embassy.

Can anyone explain what this actually is? Since I currently hold American citizenship, can anyone suggest what this document would be at the U.S. Embassy? I can sign an affadavit affirming that I am of legal age. Is that sufficient?

The U.S. is complicated in that the age of majority is determined by the state, not by the federal government, so how can the U.S. Embassy certify something that is really determined by an individual state? It seems impossible.

Nobody can seem to provide me with any useful information here. Has anyone on this list ever gone through this process? What do I need to do to fulfil this requirement?

Any advice/help would be appreciated. Hoping someone out there might be able to point me in the right direction.

Thanks.

The age of majority in Thailand is 20 years

[samran]

I'm assuming you have permanent residency already?

[samran]

have attached here the rules for a male to be naturalised. Got these from the Police HQ across the road from Central World.

Minimum time is three years, but up to a decade wait isn't unusal.

Apologies for the bad quality. I had to scan it and the lady who gave it to me had it printed out on the back of recycled paper. There are different rules depending on if you are male or female. Males are required to go the PR route before being eligble to apply, females who are married to Thai's, theoretically, can skip PR and get Thai nationality.

Thai_naturalisation___male_v2.doc

[jbsears]

I'm just wondering what is the advantage of gaining Thai citizenship if you are an American citizen?

[old wanderer]

America is the only contry in the world that lays claim to any money you make reguardless of where you live or work.

it used to be a rare occurance in Europe for a person to make an appointment to renounce citizenship, now in London there is a 3 to 4 month wait for that appointment. People that live abroad and earn a decient living are required to file every year with the IRS even if you do no owe anything.

I personally am rebelious by nature, and will look at alternatives when I finally retire in Thailand.

[astral]

I personally am rebelious by nature, and will look at alternatives when I finally retire in Thailand.

It is not good waiting until you retire.

To get citizenship you need PR first and that requires a record of paying tax in Thailand.

As a retiree all you can expect is the retirement visa, OA..................

[TomInThailand]

I'm assuming you have permanent residency already?

Hi Samran. The document I'm having trouble with is #16. This is the seemingly elusive "prrof of age of majority" whatever that means. The Thai officials told me I need to get this from the U.S. Embassy. The conversation with the ever pleasant reps at citizen services at the US Embassy went something like this:

"We don't have any document like that. And we can't help you with Thai citizenship. We suggest you contact the Thai authorities with your questions. Thanks for playing. Next."

Have you actually tried to apply? What is document #16 exactly, and how does a US citizen get one?

Anyone who has ever actually tried to apply is welcome to answer this. I'd really like to have a first hand account.

Thanks.

[p_brownstone]

The questions Samran asked is of first importance.

Do you already hold Permanent Residence in Thailand?

You only joined this Forum yesterday, and whilst I guess it is possible to live in Thailand for long enough to obtain Permanent Residence without ever knowing about this Board it does seem rather unlikely.

Patrick

[Maestro]

The questions Samran asked is of first importance.

Do you already hold Permanent Residence in Thailand?

The OP has an influential friend. Perhaps in these circumstances, Permanent Residence (PR) is not necessary prior to application for citizenship. The law itself does not require it.

Section 10. An alien who possesses the following qualifications may apply for naturalisation as a Thai:

(1) becoming sui juris in accordance with Thai law and the law under which he has nationality;

(2) having good behaviour;

(3) having regular occupation;

(4) having a domicile in the Thai Kingdom for a consecutive period of not less than five years till the day of filing the application for naturalisation;

(5) having knowledge of Thai language as prescribed in the Regulations.

A link to Thailand’s Nationality Act can be found in the pinned topic “Thai Immigration Laws, Regulations, Police Orders” at the top of this forum.

Of course, the PR requirement might be – and probably is – in the regulations or police orders issued under authority of the abovementioned Section 10, and if that is the case that’s where an influential friend can make a difference, as regulations and police orders often have a clause that permits discretionary exceptions.

The “being of age” document mentioned by the OP must be the number (1) in the list in Section 10.

--

Maestro

[TomInThailand]

The questions Samran asked is of first importance.

Do you already hold Permanent Residence in Thailand?

The OP has an influential friend. Perhaps in these circumstances, Permanent Residence (PR) is not necessary prior to application for citizenship. The law itself does not require it.

Section 10. An alien who possesses the following qualifications may apply for naturalisation as a Thai:

(1) becoming sui juris in accordance with Thai law and the law under which he has nationality;

(2) having good behaviour;

(3) having regular occupation;

(4) having a domicile in the Thai Kingdom for a consecutive period of not less than five years till the day of filing the application for naturalisation;

(5) having knowledge of Thai language as prescribed in the Regulations.

A link to Thailand's Nationality Act can be found in the pinned topic "Thai Immigration Laws, Regulations, Police Orders" at the top of this forum.

Of course, the PR requirement might be – and probably is – in the regulations or police orders issued under authority of the abovementioned Section 10, and if that is the case that's where an influential friend can make a difference, as regulations and police orders often have a clause that permits discretionary exceptions.

The "being of age" document mentioned by the OP must be the number (1) in the list in Section 10.

--

Maestro

You are all absolutely correct. Under normal circumstances an application for citizenship will never be approved without PR. However, to put everyone's mind at ease I have been here for more than 8 years. I have always known about this board, just never had a reason to post before. You can read all of this lovely information on the board without registering you know...

Anyway, we are kind of getting off track from where I hoped this discussion would go. I really, really would like to know what to do about this document. It is a thorn in the process and I'm not sure how to proceed.

I'm sure there has to be at least 1 person in Thailand who has accomplished this. If anyone has any information I'd love to know.

Thanks again.

[danone]

if you have an influential friend, why bothering us uninfluentials?

ask him! oh, he doesnt know.

[Maestro]

I'm sure there has to be at least 1 person in Thailand who has accomplished this. If anyone has any information I'd love to know.

I have not seen any ThaiVisa member mention that he obtained Thai nationality through naturalisation and therefore nobody may be able to give you first-hand information. Also, this “age of majority” document is probably not required for anything else in Thailand.

It is perhaps understandable that the US embassy is not keen to cooperate with you in your renouncing US citizenship.

I wonder if this is a case where a Notarial Services Attorney would be needed. There was a topic on this here. However, in that case, only the conformity of a photocopy with the original had to be certified. In your case, you would probably need a statement written a by Thai Notarial Services Attorney in his own name certifying that you have reached the age of majority – that you are sui juris – in accordance with the applicable law of the United States, which is <name of law>. I don’t know if that sample document given by Sunbelt was notarised by a lawyer of Sunbelt. You could give Sunbelt a call and ask, and find out if they have an idea how they could help you get this “age of majority” document. When I had occasion to deal with Sunbelt I spoke to Greg or, in his absence, to Ronald. This is the best suggestion I can make. If they can’t help, they may know somebody else who can.

--------------

Maestro

[p_brownstone]

The questions Samran asked is of first importance.

Do you already hold Permanent Residence in Thailand?

The OP has an influential friend. Perhaps in these circumstances, Permanent Residence (PR) is not necessary prior to application for citizenship. The law itself does not require it.

Section 10. An alien who possesses the following qualifications may apply for naturalisation as a Thai:

(1) becoming sui juris in accordance with Thai law and the law under which he has nationality;

(2) having good behaviour;

(3) having regular occupation;

(4) having a domicile in the Thai Kingdom for a consecutive period of not less than five years till the day of filing the application for naturalisation;

(5) having knowledge of Thai language as prescribed in the Regulations.

A link to Thailand’s Nationality Act can be found in the pinned topic “Thai Immigration Laws, Regulations, Police Orders” at the top of this forum.

Of course, the PR requirement might be – and probably is – in the regulations or police orders issued under authority of the abovementioned Section 10, and if that is the case that’s where an influential friend can make a difference, as regulations and police orders often have a clause that permits discretionary exceptions.

The “being of age” document mentioned by the OP must be the number (1) in the list in Section 10.

--

Maestro

If you are suggesting that someone can make the leap from a Non-Immigrant Visa (or whatever) to Thai Citizenship simply by complying with the 5 points in the section of the Thai Nationality Act - an abbreviated English Translation of which you quote - then I am absolutely sure you are mistaken.

I have several friends who have eventually obtained Thai Citizenship and without exception they all held Permanent Residence for several years before being granted Citizenship.

FACT : One cannot obtain even PR Status without a record of (usually significant) Income Tax payments for at least 3 years.

Frankly many things about this Post sound very strange, as danone pointed out for example, if the OP has such “influential friends” why is he hung up on a simple document confirming that he has reached “the age of majority” and needs advice from this Forum?

Also the OP carefully skirts the issue of his current status in Thailand – simply stating that he has been here “for more than 8 years”.

Patrick

[thaihome]

I'm sure there has to be at least 1 person in Thailand who has accomplished this. If anyone has any information I'd love to know.

I have not seen any ThaiVisa member mention that he obtained Thai nationality through naturalisation and therefore nobody may be able to give you first-hand information. Also, this “age of majority” document is probably not required for anything else in Thailand.

It is perhaps understandable that the US embassy is not keen to cooperate with you in your renouncing US citizenship.

I wonder if this is a case where a Notarial Services Attorney would be needed. There was a topic on this here. However, in that case, only the conformity of a photocopy with the original had to be certified. In your case, you would probably need a statement written a by Thai Notarial Services Attorney in his own name certifying that you have reached the age of majority – that you are sui juris – in accordance with the applicable law of the United States, which is <name of law>. I don’t know if that sample document given by Sunbelt was notarised by a lawyer of Sunbelt. You could give Sunbelt a call and ask, and find out if they have an idea how they could help you get this “age of majority” document. When I had occasion to deal with Sunbelt I spoke to Greg or, in his absence, to Ronald. This is the best suggestion I can make. If they can’t help, they may know somebody else who can.

--------------

Maestro

Why would he have to renounce US citizenship?

If you have ever dealt with "influential people" in Thailand, it would be understandable that they do not concern themselves with details like specific forms.

The OP should draft up a document stating he is of majority age and go to consulate get it notarized. They cannot refuse to notarize a document which contains statements which you are willing to affirm are true,

TH

[Maestro]

If you are suggesting that someone can make the leap from a Non-Immigrant Visa (or whatever) to Thai Citizenship simply by complying with the 5 points in the section of the Thai Nationality Act

No, I am definitely not suggesting that. Ministerial Regulations and Police Orders have been issued on the basis of the Nationality Act, and the result is the list of 18 requirements posted by Samran.

The OP asked what the “age of majority” document is and I suggested that it probably is the document described in Section 10(1) of the Nationality Act. I do not read Thai but I guess it is among the 18 items in Samran’s list.

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

Why would he have to renounce US citizenship?

He does not have to. He wants to, and he has explained why. It is neither for me nor for anybody else to question his motives. The only thing this topic is about is what that ominous “age of majority” document is and how to get it.

--

Maestro

[samran]

I'm assuming you have permanent residency already?

Hi Samran. The document I'm having trouble with is #16. This is the seemingly elusive "prrof of age of majority" whatever that means. The Thai officials told me I need to get this from the U.S. Embassy. The conversation with the ever pleasant reps at citizen services at the US Embassy went something like this:

"We don't have any document like that. And we can't help you with Thai citizenship. We suggest you contact the Thai authorities with your questions. Thanks for playing. Next."

Have you actually tried to apply? What is document #16 exactly, and how does a US citizen get one?

Anyone who has ever actually tried to apply is welcome to answer this. I'd really like to have a first hand account.

Thanks.

Sorry for the delayed reply.

To be honest, I was born a dual national, so I havent' been through the process. I got the info you see for my wife. As foreign female married to a Thai citizen, she is eligible to go straight for the citzenship without having to go through the PR process.

As for document 16, I've never heard of it, nor have ever needed one. You'd be best to ask a lawyer how to get one. If the US doesn't issue them, it may be a matter of getting one in Thai, translating it, having the MFA in Chaeng Wattana certify the translation, and then having the notary at the US embassy stamp it. At least then, you'll have something 'from the US embassy' which ticks that box.

As for your ability to skip the PR process because of your connections, I'm going to give you the benfit of the doubt, but I will tell you this as a way of managing your expectations:

I've got a friend who has been waiting 8 years for his citizenship, and, he had a senior member of TRT under the old government promise to expedite the process after he'd already been waiting 5 or 6 years. It never happened, despite the efforts of the TRT member.

I'm in the position, (should you chose to believe it) of probably asking someone quite close and senior in the current Thai govt to expeditie my wifes application (should we chose to apply). The thing is, it is one thing to ask (and have a genuinely powerful patron back the application). It is another thing for them to influence the process (or be able to influence the process). From my perspective, I don't think it is possible for my friend to help my wifes application (unfortunately).

The problem is with all these scenario's is that is the Ministry of Interior, incoperation with the Police HQ who essentially handles the process. Eventually, they send the application to the Minister of Interior's desk for signature. Applications have been known to sit on a ministers intray for months, and never get signed. The the minister changes, so it is back to square one, to prepare the paperwork to get the application back to him. For others, they get caught in the system, run by equally powerful burecrats who have the power/methods to ignore/delay their political masters wishes if they so chose.

My point being, unless you are on a first name basis with the current Minister of Interior, I'd say be prepared to be disappointed. Even if you were a good friend of someone who was close to the minister, I'd say be prepared to be even more disappointed. If it so happens you are best mates with the minister, you'd have to be assured that he can get all his ducks lined up in a row for you as far as civil service/police signatures go before the government changes.

All the best though with the application.

[astral]

A fascinating flight of fanatasy.

[samran]

A fascinating flight of fanatasy.

managing expectations astral, managing expectations......

[barryofthailand]

America is the only contry in the world that lays claim to any money you make reguardless of where you live or work.

it used to be a rare occurance in Europe for a person to make an appointment to renounce citizenship, now in London there is a 3 to 4 month wait for that appointment. People that live abroad and earn a decient living are required to file every year with the IRS even if you do no owe anything.

I personally am rebelious by nature, and will look at alternatives when I finally retire in Thailand.

America has a tax treaty with Thailand, so it's your choice if you are working in Thailand. You can either pay your taxes to the states or to Thailand. Everyone who is an American citizen pays taxes. This is why America is the greatest country in the world. Peaple are pounding on the doors to get in not to get out.

Barry

[papabill]

America is the only contry in the world that lays claim to any money you make reguardless of where you live or work.

it used to be a rare occurance in Europe for a person to make an appointment to renounce citizenship, now in London there is a 3 to 4 month wait for that appointment. People that live abroad and earn a decient living are required to file every year with the IRS even if you do no owe anything.

I personally am rebelious by nature, and will look at alternatives when I finally retire in Thailand.

America has a tax treaty with Thailand, so it's your choice if you are working in Thailand. You can either pay your taxes to the states or to Thailand. Everyone who is an American citizen pays taxes. This is why America is the greatest country in the world. Peaple are pounding on the doors to get in not to get out.

Barry

God bless America. The country is a better place with out you.

[ThaiItAgain]

>The U.S. is complicated in that the age of majority is determined by the state, not by the federal government, so how can the U.S. Embassy certify something that is really determined by an individual state? It seems impossible.<

Nobody can seem to provide me with any useful information here !

I am not a U.S. Citizen but from Australia. However, it seems to me that if "The U.S. is complicated in that the age of majority is determined by the state", What is stopping you from seeking the information you need from the state in the USA where you live or was borne?

That would have to be evidence close to what the officials in Thailand require!

Thailand authorities are looking for some sort of official evidence that addresses their requirements. Would this action on your part get you closer to your goal?

Just talking about it appears to be taking you further away form where you are trying to end up; i.e citizenship of Thailand.

Please consider.

ThaiItAgain

[Arkady]

You could always go along to the Special Branch office in Police HQ to ask them for clarification on that point. I assume they have time on they hands as they don't receive that many applications.

I remember reading of rare cases in the past where people were granted citizenship immediately as a personal favour of a minister. As Samran says this would the only way a foreign male could get it without PR but the chances are extremely remote today. Purachai managed to poison the system in the brief time he was interior minister when he publicly castigated the police for taking bribes from citizenship applicants and he rejected the entire backlog of several years on the grounds that not one of them was contributing anything of value to Thai society. (Then he quiety went off to New Zealand where he owns land and may even be a citizen). The result seems to have been to make applications take even longer. A friend who is a fairly average guy without special connections got approved in the early 90s after a three year wait. The latest person I have heard of getting through waited 8 years even with very good connections in the military. I recently heard of a horror story of an applicant who claimed to have been shaken down by Special Branch who investigated his personal tax since his date of arrival in the Kingdom and arbitrarily decided he had been under reporting his income. He was allegedly forced to pay a few million in back taxes and under the table money to the police and is of course no closer to becoming Thai despite having sung the Royal and National Anthems.

Any more information on naturalization through the PR route would welcome, particularly from those with first hand experience. I think there are quite few on TV that would be interested and there are very few sources of information apart from the official ones. As we all know the official regulations are one thing by the internal interpretation by government departments is another.

[astral]

This is why America is the greatest country in the world.

It is amazing how many people are deluded in this way.

[Jai Dee]

Let's stick to the topic please folks and leave American flag waving and/or bashing out of this thread.

[TheChiefJustice]

Having completed the aplication process last year, I can confrm that you will need to swear an affidavit at your embassy stating that you are of the age of legal majority under the laws of your home country. Have the embassy stamp the affidavit and then have it professionally translated. Make sure the translator uses the term บรรลุนิติภาวะ as the Thai translation for "age of majority". .

Edited July 1, 2007 by TheChiefJustice