Neeranam Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 If you are a Buddhist, do you have faith(blind or otherwise), or do you have intuition, intelligence, experience, or anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumnien Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 A buddhist with no faith in Buddhism is a sorry sight to contemplate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColPyat Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I always thought that Buddhism is a way of self realization based on knowledge through experience and meditation and not on faith. I am not a Buddhist, by the way, i am agnostic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Gorgon Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 If you are a Buddhist, do you have faith(blind or otherwise), or do you have intuition, intelligence, experience, or anything else? I think you can have all of the above, N. I do not believe you meant that if you are a Buddhist you would not have intuition, intelligence, experience, or anything else. Many monks I know have all of the above plus compassion and wisdom beyond the ages. I am not Buddhist, but monks taught me to forget my fears in order to meditate. I went to the stars! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnvic Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 If you are a Buddhist, do you have faith(blind or otherwise), or do you have intuition, intelligence, experience, or anything else? Buddhism is not based on faith, it is based on knowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumnien Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Faith (saddhā / śraddhā) is an important constituent element of the teachings of the Buddha - both in the Theravada tradition and especially in the Mahayana. It betokens faith in the reliability of the Buddha as a truly Awakened guide and confident trust in the truth of the Buddha's teachings (his Dharma). It can be inspired in part by the charisma of the Buddha himself. Buddhists claim that it is certainly not "blind faith" in just anyone and anything. In the Kalama Sutta the Buddha himself argues against "blind faith" based simply on authority, tradition or specious reasoning; but Gautama, the Buddha himself, and his Buddhism are exempted by Buddhists from this prohibition: for even though one's own experience is emphasized in accepting Buddha and Buddhism, the counsel of the wise (implicitly meaning a Buddha, ultimately Gautama himself, or a Buddhist master well versed in Dharma) should always be depended upon -- whence there remains a requirement for a degree of trusting confidence in Buddhism, essentially in the authority of Gautama as the ultimate Buddha, based on his spiritual attainment and salvational knowledge. Faith in Buddhism centres on the authority of Gautama as a supremely Awakened being, by assenting to his unexcelled role as teacher of both humans and gods, to the truth of his Dharma (spiritual Doctrine), and in accepting the Sangha (community of spiritually developed followers). Faith in Buddhism can be said to function as a form of motor, which propels the Buddhist practitioner towards the goal of Awakening (bodhi) and Nirvana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumnien Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Faith in Theravada Buddhism The Pali suttas (scriptures) list faith as one of the seven Treasures (dhanas), one of the five “spiritual faculties” (indriyas), one of the four “streams of merit”, and one of the “spiritual powers” (balas). When a person decides to give up domestic life and live as a monk or nun, it is said to be out of faith (“through faith in the Lord”) that he/she does so (Majjhima-Nikaya 107 and 140): first comes the hearing of Dhamma (verbalised spiritual Truth) from the Buddha or one of his disciples, and then follows faith in the Buddha’s teaching and reflection upon the value of its application (Majjhima-Nikaya 112). Faith is primarily faith in the Buddha himself as the Teacher of supreme spiritual realization and accomplishment. The Buddha extols such faith as befitting a “noble” Buddhist disciple: “The ariyan [noble] disciple is of faith; he has faith in the Awakening of the Tathagata [buddha], and thinks: He is indeed Lord, perfected one, fully Self-Awakened One, endowed with right knowledge and conduct, well-farer, knower of the world(s), matchless charioteer of men to be tamed, teacher of devas [gods] and men, the Awakened One, the Lord.” (Majjhima-Nikaya 53). In the Kasibharadvaja Sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya, we have the relationship of faith, practice and wisdom: Faith is the seed, practice the rain, And wisdom is my yoke and plough. Modesty’s the pole, mind the strap, Mindfulness my ploughshare and goad. In this the seed of faith only grows bigger with practice and wisdom of discernment. Such faith, it is said, can lead towards Liberation. Indeed, a person who is “released by faith” can well, in consequence, be “on the path to arahantship” (spiritual adeptship) (according to the Buddha of the Anguttara-Nikaya, Book of Threes, 21). It is for such reasons that faith is stated by the Buddha to be appropriate as “a person’s partner” (Samyutta-Nikaya, Sagathavagga, 200) and to be “a man’s best treasure” (ibid, 228). The Buddha even quotes with evident approval the god Sakka’s Dharma-charged words: “… faith in the Tathagata unshakable and well established … … the person of intelligence, remembering the Buddha’s Teaching, should be devoted to faith and virtue, to confidence and vision of the Dhamma [Dharma].” (ibid, 912). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumnien Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Faith in Buddhism Submitted By: David Brazier Dharmavidya Narborough, Europe-United Kingdom The quality of faith is the beginning and the end of Buddhism. When Shakyamuni Buddha was asked what his path consists of he often gave lists of qualities, such as compassion and wisdom, but generally these lists begin with faith. Faith in Buddhism, however, is not the same as belief. Everybody has beliefs, of course. They are a product of everyday experience and of being informed, as well as of reflection upon life’s mysteries. You probably believe that the world is round, that your mother does (or does not) love you, that plants grow from seeds, and so on. Actually none of these things can be fully verified by your own experience alone. Have you ever watched the whole germination process of a plant? You have seen some bits of evidence and you have read things in books or been told by other people and you have put two and two together. We all have lots of beliefs. Faith, however, is something a little different. Faith is a quality akin to confidence and courage. To enter upon a spiritual path requires a degree of faith. What happens as we practise any spiritual discipline is that our faith deepens. Ultimately we may have awakenings of faith that transform our perception of our whole world. A person whose faith has been concentrated in this way shines with a confidence that has nothing to do with their ego – they are at peace, yet vibrantly alive. Faith is an intrinsic quality of life. Everybody has faith, but most people scatter their faith, investing it in things that are not particularly noble or up-lifting. In Buddhism, faith is referred to by using the term Refuge. Instead of taking refuge in worldly things, Buddhists take refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha – the teacher, the teaching and the spiritual community. Our life is as good and as meaningful as what we take refuge in. - Dharmavidya David Brazier, Order of Amida Buddha. www.amidatrust.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garro Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 (edited) I personally have trouble with the terms 'faith' and 'prayer'. This is due negative associations I made to these terms during my childhood. This is not to say that they are not there. The only thing in Buddhism that I have really needed to put faith in, is that the Buddha reached enlightenment. Many other things I have found within myself. In regards to rebirth; I haven't needed to use faith for this because until I find some proof within myself it will just be an interesting proposition which I tend to believe as the Buddha mentions it. Edited March 19, 2007 by garro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumnien Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Good on you, garro. Keep up the faith! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chownah Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Faith in the Buddha is not needed to reach nibhanna. The Buddha teaches that there are those who attain nibhanna without any knowledge of the Buddha at all...they are called Paccaka Buddhas....they attain nibhanna by themselves and they do not develop enough knowledge to teach (like the Buddha did) but they do reach Nibhanna....they are sometimes called "Private Buddhas". Chownah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumnien Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 They may not have faith in the Buddha, but I would suggest they may incorporate faith in something into their hearts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garro Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I suppose faith is like everything else in Buddhism. It will take you so far along the path but will eventually need to be abandoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chownah Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 They may not have faith in the Buddha, but I would suggest they may incorporate faith in something into their hearts. Yeah, I think I know what you mean but I'm not sure....the concept of "faith" is kind of slippery for me. A post above says that belief and faith are not the same thing and I suppose that's an OK opinion but on the other hand they are sort of the same thing. Also I think that faith means really different things to different people and that's one reason why there is such a wide difference in reaction to it. Some people see faith as requiring the halting of all analytic processes and so for them it is seen very negatively...while others see faith as requiring the halting of all analytic process and for them this makes it stand out as a giant positive (no, no typos here and yes that is what I'm trying to say). Neeranam, So, what exactly do you mean by "faith" anyway? Chownah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnvic Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 To me faith is too much like hope and wishing to be compatible with Buddhist thought. If anything it goes against it unless you look at doctrines like Pure Land which to me seems rather "un-buddhist". If ridding yourself of desire is paramount, then shouldn't faith be something to be shed as soon as possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeranam Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 The Buddha teaches that there are those who attain nibhanna without any knowledge of the Buddha at all...they are called Paccaka Buddhas....they attain nibhanna by themselves and they do not develop enough knowledge to teach (like the Buddha did) but they do reach Nibhanna....they are sometimes called "Private Buddhas".But surely they can't be Buddists?Neeranam,So, what exactly do you mean by "faith" anyway? Chownah Good question. I think faith is believing something that cannot be rationally explained. Faith in Buddha/God for example. Maybe adherence to a set of rules/precepts or principles when you're not sure about them. I've known many Buddists and the happiest seem to be the ones with blind faith. I'm not saying that blind faith is good or correct, or even what the Buddha suggested. The unhappy ones seem to be the ones who try to analyze everything and need explanations for everything. Maybe the Tibetans who I've seen debating aside. I think that saying faith is not needed is saying that you know better than the Buddha himself. Thanks to mdeland for those replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chownah Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 The Buddha teaches that there are those who attain nibhanna without any knowledge of the Buddha at all...they are called Paccaka Buddhas....they attain nibhanna by themselves and they do not develop enough knowledge to teach (like the Buddha did) but they do reach Nibhanna....they are sometimes called "Private Buddhas".But surely they can't be Buddists? Interesting question.....can a "Buddha be non-buddhist?"...maybe, I don't know. I guess to me "being Buddhist" is sort of a non-thing.....nobody has a card certifying them as Buddhist....do they? I usually tell people I'm buddhist but I don't really believe it....I'm just someone who thinks that the Buddha was on to something that can be helpful for me....is this "faith"?....don't know...am I really buddhist?...don't know....does it matter?....don't know. Chownah?....don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaiGreg Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 [The Lord] Buddha was not a Buddhist. And when any one of us, as Buddhists, attain enlightenment, we will cease to be Buddhists. In that sense, "buddhist" means follower! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ave Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 These are some of the many things I have learnt and what I like about Buddhism: Buddhism aims to awaken people to the limitless potential and value of their own lives. Buddhist philosophy and practice bring about a positive transformation in the depths of life, transforming fear into courage, deluded impulses into wisdom, and egotism to compassion. Buddhism begins with individuals deciding to take responsibility for their own individual lives, reforming first themselves and their immediate surroundings and relations, and then gradually extending their wisdom, courage and compassion into a wider sphere. Faith is important but it has to be faith in yourself first. Then you can pass on faith and hope on to others. Intelligence is not so relevant as far as I understand. Even people with a low IQ can be perform a good buddhist practice. It's the heart that counts. Intuition can be useful, it can be a shortcut to happiness. Instinct is more important. Wisdom is one of the ultimate goals. When you reach a certain amount of wisdom - which I believe most of us don't have, including me - you can transform poison into medicine and build that inner indestructible happiness, no matter how much suffering you are going through. According to my and others experience we can achieve this in this life. We don't need to collect points in this life and hope to reincarnate into a better person. What counts is now. If the past is history and the future is a mystery, today is a gift, that's why they call it the present.. Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkGently Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Faith and blind hope are the same. I suggest you concern yourself with this world more than the next. (GoD) Although there there isn't one, will be fuming that you spent your time thinking of the rewards you will (or won't) get in the next life just because you did what you were told to do by a man that spoke in his name. Move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solid Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I see faith is a kind of attachment. As a Buddhist, I cannot live freely with such attachment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamantaka Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 If you are a Buddhist, do you have faith(blind or otherwise), or do you have intuition, intelligence, experience, or anything else? I don't think that faith in Judeo-Christian tradition is the same as faith would be construed in Buddhism. My read of the former is that faith requires believing without tangible proof, solely because the "heart" id open to accepting God as existing. The teachings I have taken in Buddhism have always been the opposite: "Listen to this, see if it makes sense for you, examine it to see what's wrong with it. If after that you still "like" it, put it to good use in your life. Faith in the Buddha really is more believing that what he taught was valid and useful. He was after all, a teacher, not a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garro Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 If I didn't have faith in the idea that it is possible to escape suffering why would I bother trying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumnien Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Obviously, faith was very central to the Buddha's teachings. That is, if you have faith that what was written down 600 years after Buddha died is really what he taught. In any case, just because faith was central to the buddha's teachings doesn't mean it has to be central to any of our paths. My experience however, is that as soon as you start censoring all references to faith from the buddha's teachings you are bound to start censoring all references to lying, killing, sexual misconduct, intoxicants and whatever else seems unpalatable at the moment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnvic Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 (edited) Obviously, faith was very central to the Buddha's teachings. That is, if you have faith that what was written down 600 years after Buddha died is really what he taught. In any case, just because faith was central to the buddha's teachings doesn't mean it has to be central to any of our paths. My experience however, is that as soon as you start censoring all references to faith from the buddha's teachings you are bound to start censoring all references to lying, killing, sexual misconduct, intoxicants and whatever else seems unpalatable at the moment! It doesn't matter what was written down all those years ago. If you know something to be true it doesn't matter what some mythical/historical (?) oracle may or may not have said. Faith can blind you to truth because it implies making up one's mind prior to learning. Edited March 21, 2007 by cdnvic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumnien Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Obviously, faith was very central to the Buddha's teachings. That is, if you have faith that what was written down 600 years after Buddha died is really what he taught. In any case, just because faith was central to the buddha's teachings doesn't mean it has to be central to any of our paths. My experience however, is that as soon as you start censoring all references to faith from the buddha's teachings you are bound to start censoring all references to lying, killing, sexual misconduct, intoxicants and whatever else seems unpalatable at the moment! It doesn't matter what was written down all those years ago. If you know something to be true it doesn't matter what some mythical/historical (?) oracle may or may not have said. Faith can blind you to truth because it implies making up one's mind prior to learning. Perhaps, as you say faithlessness is a buddhist virtue. Perhaps, it is the 11th unrecorded paramita. I'll try to keep an open mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Gorgon Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Maybe y'all need to let your whiskers be tickled by the blissful state. Just meditate and go up there. I like kittens. Ajahn said that with practise, I will be a good sweeper of leaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banchang Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 You have to have faith to accept something that isn’t provable. If you know something to be true then this doesn’t require faith only knowledge. So are there concepts in Buddhism that are not biased on knowledge well reincarnation is one there is no proof that this happens so this must be taken on faith there is no proof you can get to nirvana so this also takes faith . If a Buddhist woman gave birth to a crippled child her faith in merit and reincarnation would lead her to believe this child had done something wrong in a past life leaving this poor unfortunate child to be stigmatised for life. Luckily more educated people would understand this child had been unfortunate to have a condition that medical science and knowledge can explain. So do you need faith as a Buddhist? I think you would have to have. Would you be better of without faith? Most certainly . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumnien Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Faithlessness leads to depression and anxiety. Without faith one has fear. Without faith or fear, one is catatonic and unresponsive. I would describe myself as a person who values his faith highly. It is my faith that leads me rather my wisdom or knowledge. I try to cultivate faith and keep fear under wraps. This doesn't necessarily mean I have faith "in" something. I don't really believe or disbelieve in "God", that is not where my faith lies. My faith comes thru my experience that there is a path, others are following that path, and if I go where they go and do what they do I will keep getting what they're getting - happiness. I don't have to be a trailblazer anymore. Life is a lot easier. I'm just another bozo on the bus. I got on the bus at the vipassana meditation station, so that's where my faith lies. If I got on at another station, my faith might lie somewhere else. I value all your comments whether I agree with them or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banchang Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 (edited) Faithlessness leads to depression and anxiety. Without faith one has fear. Without faith or fear, one is catatonic and unresponsive. In everyone? I must say im the exact opposit to all you say and i have no faith. Edited March 22, 2007 by banchang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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