Meeting with Immigration a missed opportunity

[Bangkok Barry]

 

Since the meeting with top immigration officials at the Alien Correspondents Club I have felt frustrated at what a lost opportunity it was. I wasn't there but from what I've read, instead of really confronting and challenging them about the issues, it was more like a cosy chat with the local vicar over a cup of tea where everyone present was afraid to ask him why the number of his church attendance was down. All too polite, and it resulted in nothing at all, nothing, other than the officials saying that no matter how inconvenient it might be, and damaging to the image of the country as a result of the worldwide publicity it was getting, the TM30 was the law and it was going to be strictly enforced and there was absolutely no plan at all to change that.

 

Why did no-one raise the following questions and demand an explanation?

 

1 - Many countries, and especially for example the United States, England and France, are at great risk from terrorists that threaten their national security, yet none of those countries feel it is necessary to track an alien's movements and, for example, fine their wife if they fail to report to the authorities that her husband is home after a day away. Why  does Thailand, with a far less risk of national security being compromised, feel it is necessary to do that?

 

2 - If there is such a risk to national security from aliens, why does Thailand allow millions into the country visa-free? There is infinitely greater risk to national security by terrorists from those who enter the country for just a few days or less, do their deed and flee. That is how they work. They don't marry a Thai and live in the country for years before committing an act. Why don't they protect national security and demand that every visitor has a visa, as many other countries do?

 

3 - Why does the TM30 apply only to alien movements, when there is a far greater threat to national security from Thais? Aliens did not, for example, burn down Central World or set the recent bombs around Bangkok. Why are only aliens targeted?

 

4 - For those who are issued visas, why then after they have been vetted and investigated before that visa is issued, are they told their movement around the country must be reported to the authorities, daily in some circumstances? If they are a risk, why were they given a visa? If they have been issued a visa because they are not a risk, then why must their movements be tracked?

 

5 - For those who have been issued a one-year visa, why must they then leave the country every 90 days, be anywhere in the world except the country they live in, even if only for five minutes, or alternatively apply after that 90 days for an extension and permission to, for example, continue living with their family for another few weeks until repeating the process? What is the point of that and what does it achieve?

 

6 - How are the sums of money that aliens have to show proof of calculated? There is a figure of 65,000 baht a month, yet many can live at far below that level, especially if they have no rent to pay. Why is 400,000 or 800,000 baht required to be shown in a Thai bank account, but only by aliens. It is not required of Thais and nor is the monthly income level, and is therefore discriminatory.

 

7 - Why do foreigners arriving in Thailand have to show 20,000 baht in cash, when in the 21st century everyone carries a credit and/or debit card rather than risk carrying a large sum of money with them? Why does Thailand not acknowledge that? And why 20,000 baht, which can easily be spent in a day if someone is so inclined?

 

Why were none of these very relevant questions properly addressed when there was the rare opportunity?

 

No doubt there are other concerns that I haven't listed, so over to the TV members....

[jackdd]

These questions were probably not addressed because they were talking with immigration police, and not Prayut or other ministers. Immigration police does not make the laws and they can't change them. Their job is to enforce existing laws.

There is only one question which you could ask them: Why did you ignore the law for so many years, and just recently started enforcing it? iirc this question was asked.

 

Let's imagine you would ask Immigration police these questions, the answers would have been:

1) Because the law says so

2) Because the law says so

3) Because the law says so

4) Because the law says so

5) They don't need to leave, they can apply for an extension

6) Because the ministerial orders say so

7) Because the ministerial orders say so

Edited September 3, 2019 by jackdd

[Bangkok Barry]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

These questions were probably not addressed because they were talking with immigration police, and not Prayut or other ministers. Immigration police does not make the laws and they can't change them. Their job is to enforce existing laws.

There is only one question which you could ask them: Why did you ignore the law for so many years, and just recently started enforcing it? iirc this question was asked.

 

Let's imagine you would ask Immigration police these questions, the answers would have been:

1) Because the law says so

2) Because the law says so

3) Because the law says so

4) Because the law says so

5) They don't need to leave, they can apply for an extension

6) Because the ministerial orders say so

7) Because the ministerial orders say so

 

In that case, what was the point of the meeting, with people who have nothing to say except it's the law? A waste of their time and that of everyone who attended. It could, and did, apparently achieve nothing at all.

[jackdd]

31 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

In that case, what was the point of the meeting, with people who have nothing to say except it's the law? A waste of their time and that of everyone who attended. It could, and did, apparently achieve nothing at all.

There are many questions which could have been asked and which would have made sense, just not the questions which you suggested.

Questions which would have made sense:

- How do you justify fining a foreigner and denying to process his extension (in case the foreigner is not obligated to submit a TM30 himself), only because his landlord doesn't follow the law?

- What can a foreigner do who is technically in a position where he has to submit a TM30 (for example he rents a house in his name), but the landlord refuses to provide the nessecary documents (house book, id card), so that the foreigner could do it by himself, and the landlord also refuses to the TM30 by himself?

 

You need to understand that when talking with immigration police, you don't need to ask why a law is as it is, this is just not their responsibility. Their task is to enforce laws, so you can talk with them about how they enforce it, and ways to comply with the law.

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, Bangkok Barry said:

In that case, what was the point of the meeting,

What is the point of most meetings?

It is usually just an excuse to travel (with or without a visa) and claim expenses

[Bangkok Barry]

5 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

What is the point of most meetings?

It is usually just an excuse to travel (with or without a visa) and claim expenses

 

How does that relate to the meeting with expats in Bangkok?

[Sticky Wicket]

Why ask why that's just the way it is

[Sticky Wicket]

I can only imagine the authorities think there are 000's of Manchurian candidates that will be triggered simultaneously and take over the country.

[scottiejohn]

3 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

How does that relate to the meeting with expats in Bangkok?

Because most meetings are a total waste of time and unless instigated by the Powers That Be (especially in LOS) nothing will happen no matter what questions were asked.

 

Since you are so wound up about it why did you not attend?

[RichardColeman]

I doubt you're going to get anywhere arguing with the people that get a cut of the storage fees for the TM30 forms !

[Mavideol]

1 hour ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

In that case, what was the point of the meeting, with people who have nothing to say except it's the law? A waste of their time and that of everyone who attended. It could, and did, apparently achieve nothing at all.

that was clear from the beginning, did you ever thought the Thai officials attending would change anything to their stone written laws, lucky thy show up, honestly I was expecting them not show up based on some worthless excuse but they did come for the show and face saving, nothing else. If and I say IF again, they had any intentions of changing anything they didn't need a meeting to do so, they read TV, they know our opinions about their laws/actions, they are loosing business/tourists on a daily basis yet they do nothing to change/improve that. As my IMO keeps repeating .... "this is our country, you not happy go back to your country"... I told him you bring billions baht in and yet he keeps repeating over and over the same sh.. I gave up on arguing, or trying to have an interesting conversation with them,  it's a waste of time & energy and no longer worth the aggravation of trying to provide them with any feed back

[smutcakes]

As someone pointed out your questions are complete rubbish and have no relevance to the topic which was discussed. They would of simply ignored your questions or just said it was not their responsibility or they were carrying out instructions.

 

When you have a meeting with authority there is no point going in all guns blazing as they will just blank you or simply not even bother answering and its not going to help the situation.

 

You need to handle these guys with care, dont put them on the spot and wrangle around the issue to try and get some meaningful substance.

 

Their answers would probably go like:

 

1 - This is about Thailand not other countries. They follow the laws, not write them.

 

2 - Big picture question with lots of unsubstantiated conjecture. Question probably cut off half way through.

 

3 - You really think this is a proper question to ask at this type of event? Its police job to police local Thailand, immigration have nothing to do with this? What do you want them to say?

 

4 - I agree with you, but they would just revert to the long standing law.

 

5 - No idea, i did not think people still had to leave the country, i thought that was for tourists. Pass.

 

6 - Nothing to do with TM30 which was what the event was about.

 

7 - Nothing to do with TM30.

[Bangkok Barry]

13 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Because most meetings are a total waste of time and unless instigated by the Powers That Be (especially in LOS) nothing will happen no matter what questions were asked.

 

Since you are so wound up about it why did you not attend?

 

Because I live 700 kms from Bangkok. Not that I have to justify myself to you.

[drbeach]

1 hour ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

In that case, what was the point of the meeting, with people who have nothing to say except it's the law? A waste of their time and that of everyone who attended. It could, and did, apparently achieve nothing at all.

Which is why I decided not to attend, although I initially registered myself.

[ColeBOzbourne]

3 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Why did no-one raise the following questions and demand an explanation?

We are guests in their country, I don't believe we have the right to make demands. I really don't like it when foreigners go to my country (USA) and make demands.

[drbeach]

I fully agree with BangkokBarry.

 

You have raised some excellent questions. Number 2 for example, I have also been wondering about myself.

 

Why not introduce an "electronic travel authority" or ETA, pioneered by Australia but now being used by such countries as the USA, Sri Lanka and most recently, New Zealand, which will be introducing the requirement next month?

 

It would solve most of the issues Thailand currently faces with foreign criminals - they could be vetted before arrival, and a small fee payable by credit card would be charged, thus giving the country extra revenue. It would have little effect on tourism, since most visitors would be granted an ETA within minutes to hours. The ETA itself would be valid for anything from 2 years to the life of the passport.

 

Instead, Thailand applies contradictory logic - let's try to bring in a potential 2.7 billion visitors from China and India in visa-free, even though citizens from these two countries are, other than Burmese, Lao and Cambodians statistically the most likely to overstay and create a security risk for the country just so we can generate more revenue!!

 

I mean, who are they kidding. Who wants to come to a police state where the government wants to track your every move? Decide now - either your target is to reduce security threats to the country by vetting visa applicants more closely or you let everyone in because you need the money but at the same time you take the risk that entails.

[Bangkok Barry]

Just now, ColeBOzbourne said:

We are guests in their country, I don't believe we have the right to make demands. I really don't like it when foreigners go to my country (USA) and make demands.

 

What demands? Asking them to explain their policy isn't a demand, it's a conversation related to matters they were at the meeting to address. Or that was supposedly the intention of the organisers. I can't imagine they set up the meeting merely to tell the authorities what they felt and leave it at that. That could be done in a letter.

Does your country treat their guests like criminals, by the way? Making them report their whereabouts when they go home, report as if on probation every three months? Hmm?

[drbeach]

21 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

that was clear from the beginning, did you ever thought the Thai officials attending would change anything to their stone written laws, lucky thy show up, honestly I was expecting them not show up based on some worthless excuse but they did come for the show and face saving, nothing else. If and I say IF again, they had any intentions of changing anything they didn't need a meeting to do so, they read TV, they know our opinions about their laws/actions, they are loosing business/tourists on a daily basis yet they do nothing to change/improve that. As my IMO keeps repeating .... "this is our country, you not happy go back to your country"... I told him you bring billions baht in and yet he keeps repeating over and over the same sh.. I gave up on arguing, or trying to have an interesting conversation with them,  it's a waste of time & energy and no longer worth the aggravation of trying to provide them with any feed back

Are you sure they read TV? If so they should be aware of how many expats/tourists/foreigners no longer love Thailand and want to leave. This should give them impetus enough to make changes so as to make Thailand more competitive compared to it's neighbors. Of course if Thailand prefers that Laos and Cambodia overtake the country, then so be it.

 

Given the terrible English of the Thai panelists, i doubt they would understand half of what's written here.

[ThaiBunny]

2 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Does your country treat their guests like criminals, by the way? Making them report their whereabouts when they go home, report as if on probation every three months? Hmm?

Why do some people persist in demanding that Thailand be exactly like their home country?

[drbeach]

2 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

What demands? Asking them to explain their policy isn't a demand, it's a conversation related to matters they were at the meeting to address. Or that was supposedly the intention of the organisers. I can't imagine they set up the meeting merely to tell the authorities what they felt and leave it at that. That could be done in a letter.

Does your country treat their guests like criminals, by the way? Making them report their whereabouts when they go home, report as if on probation every three months? Hmm?

I fully agree.

 

In many other countries, foreigners make far greater and more unreasonable demands based on a far less intrusive policy than what we're seeing here in Thailand (case in point is illegal immigrants making demands in the USA). We law abiding foreign citizens have every right to make "demands" otherwise we can also vote with our feet and take our money and investments elsewhere. Then the country will suddenly try to make us feel welcome in a futile attempt to try to get us to change our minds.

 

Thailand isn't that special anyway and if it's economy collapsed it would barely be noticeable on the global stage. Already manufacturers are pulling out of the country due to high costs and the extremely over valued Baht - a Japanese electronics manufacturer in Chonburi pulled out at the end of August resulting in hundreds of jobs losses, while GM is cutting 327 jobs at it's Rayong pickup and SUV manufacturing plant. In 2015 they stopped making passenger cars in Thailand and I wouldn't be surprised if numerous automotive manufacturers, all of which are foreign owned, will pull out of Thailand over the coming 5-10 years and move their production to Myanmar, Vietnam and Indonesia.

[ColeBOzbourne]

18 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

What demands?

Your demands, OP. I quoted your original post where you said, 'why didn't anyone ask these questions and "demand" answers.' Who are you, or anyone else, to "demand" that a foreign government answer your questions simply because you are upset about something?

Edited September 3, 2019 by ColeBOzbourne

[Orton Rd]

They were not talking to a foreign government but the Police, I'd like to know why they ignored the law for almost 40 years., if that is not too 'demanding'

Edited September 3, 2019 by Orton Rd

[drbeach]

1 hour ago, Orton Rd said:

They were not talking to a foreign government but the Police, I'd like to know why they ignored the law for almost 40 years., if that is not too 'demanding'

Good point. Perhaps they enforced the law for the first year, but once the Cambodians and Vietnamese left the refugee camps it was back to business as usual. No reason to enforce this now, except (maybe?) for migrant workers from these three countries but it shouldn't be imposed on the rest of us. We bring in the big bucks with our spending habits and our investments in this country (by we I'm talking about expats ranging from Chinese and Japanese to westerners).

[ColeBOzbourne]

1 hour ago, Orton Rd said:

They were not talking to a foreign government but the Police, I'd like to know why they ignored the law for almost 40 years., if that is not too 'demanding'

No, that is not too 'demanding' at all. You said you would 'like' to know, rather than my issue with the OP who said he would 'demand' to know. There is a big difference.

 

By the way, the police are a body of officers representing the civil authority of the government. I simply do not believe guests in a foreign country have the right to make demands. Asking is fine. Demanding is not.

 

[Bangkok Barry]

3 hours ago, smutcakes said:

As someone pointed out your questions are complete rubbish and have no relevance to the topic which was discussed. They would of simply ignored your questions or just said it was not their responsibility or they were carrying out instructions.

 

When you have a meeting with authority there is no point going in all guns blazing as they will just blank you or simply not even bother answering and its not going to help the situation.

 

You need to handle these guys with care, dont put them on the spot and wrangle around the issue to try and get some meaningful substance.

 

Their answers would probably go like:

 

1 - This is about Thailand not other countries. They follow the laws, not write them.

 

2 - Big picture question with lots of unsubstantiated conjecture. Question probably cut off half way through.

 

3 - You really think this is a proper question to ask at this type of event? Its police job to police local Thailand, immigration have nothing to do with this? What do you want them to say?

 

4 - I agree with you, but they would just revert to the long standing law.

 

5 - No idea, i did not think people still had to leave the country, i thought that was for tourists. Pass.

 

6 - Nothing to do with TM30 which was what the event was about.

 

7 - Nothing to do with TM30.

 

My major point was that the meeting should have been about more than the TM30 - the missed opportunity I spoke of. I thought that was obvious, as it was the headline.

The police and immigration are basically the same, which is why you can report yourself to the local police if not near an immigration office. Except, as usual in Thailand, not everyone knows the rules or makes up their own and says it is nothing to do with them and sends you away.

If those at the meeting have no authority, why were they there? Just to listen and tell you it's the law? Was that the intention of the meeting, if not to get answers?

[Bangkok Barry]

35 minutes ago, ColeBOzbourne said:

No, that is not too 'demanding' at all. You said you would 'like' to know, rather than my issue with the OP who said he would 'demand' to know. There is a big difference.

 

By the way, the police are a body of officers representing the civil authority of the government. I simply do not believe guests in a foreign country have the right to make demands. Asking is fine. Demanding is not.

 

 

When a body of any kind is making unreasonable demands, in this case suddenly after the law has existed for 40 years and been ignored by that body, and in such a draconian way that it has received publicity all over the world from such bodies as the BBC and the Asia Review, laws that make demands upon us that border on human rights abuse (I'm referring to points I raised at the OP, and not only the TM30) and are discriminatory against all foreigners - or aliens as they like to call us - then anyone affected by those rules is fully justified in demanding to know why that is so and in turn how it is justified by them.

 

That is the way things work, world over. Governments are constantly questioned by other governments, and people are constantly questioning unfair and discriminatory treatment whether they are citizens of that country or not. People should and do demand answers. Every - every - alien in Thailand is being treated as a potential criminal, from casual workers from neighbouring countries to elderly retirees to those running a business to those supporting a Thai family. All of them - every one - is treated as a potential criminal and a danger to national security and made, several times a year and year after year, to report themselves to the authorities. That is not how the real world works, even in the most repressive regimes.

 

So we'll have to disagree on whether it is right or not to demand they justify their discriminatory and unfair behaviour over some imaginary and non-existent threat. If someone is mistreating me for absolutely no reason at all then I really, really want an answer as to why. And many of us are tired of simply asking and increasingly are demanding to know how such treatment is justified when we are doing nothing wrong. We as the abused have the right to know, whether in our own country or not.

Someone also needs to point out that it is a massive waste of their money and manpower, their human resources, that 99.9 per-cent of the time produces no benefit at all to them or anyone else. That money could be spent on establishing a modern, state-of-the-art visa system that relies on technology rather than mountains of paperwork (see post #16 above). At the moment, what happens to the forms we have to fill in, giving the same photo and the same information over and over and over and over again? They clearly don't retain it, otherwise they wouldn't have to keep asking for the same information year after year after year.

[Mavideol]

3 hours ago, drbeach said:

Are you sure they read TV? If so they should be aware of how many expats/tourists/foreigners no longer love Thailand and want to leave. This should give them impetus enough to make changes so as to make Thailand more competitive compared to it's neighbors. Of course if Thailand prefers that Laos and Cambodia overtake the country, then so be it.

 

Given the terrible English of the Thai panelists, i doubt they would understand half of what's written here.

have to disagree with their English proficiency, some are really and really very good they just are not on thee front lines but working on the back ground (trust me, (unfortunately) I know for the fact). I do think as it was brought up in previous conversations they do infiltrators here at TV, same as do the Chinese. In regards to them knowing or caring about our lost love of Thailand, they couldn't care less like they can't care less the baht is very strong they couldn't care less their exports are falling behind when comparing to their neighbors, we better come to terms with it (unfortunately) as our voices will not be heard nor our concerns will make them change..... plenty of money in reserve, "pretended" democratic elections, they guy didn't swear in as supposed to and the list keeps growing, question,... did the Thais care? NO the only ones complaining and placing their "uncalled" for opinions were us the foreigners, we are tourists , long term tourists but still tourists and for ALL of them (Thais, police and IMO included), tourists are walking ATM's some loud noisy / speaking walking ATM's

[Bangkok Barry]

3 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

Why do some people persist in demanding that Thailand be exactly like their home country?

 

I haven't met any. Have you?

[JRG23]

Didn't learn much from the FCCT event.

Edited September 4, 2019 by JRG23

[LukKrueng]

18 hours ago, Mavideol said:

they are loosing business/tourists on a daily basis yet

 

<snip>

 

... I told him you bring billions baht in

do you really think legitimate tourists (those who actually come for short visits, not those who live here long time on tourist visas / visa exempts) know or care about TM30 and other immigration issues? Do you think that's the reason for lower numbers of tourists now??

 

as for bringing billions baht into the country, according to so many threads and posts here on TV, most people just try to find ways around it all the time whereas the new regulations try to find ways to make sure the funds actually come in. If no money comes in why would the Thai government/people want a bunch of retirees living here?