Why "krung Thep" And Not "nakhon Thep"?

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

We all know what the name Krung Thep means, but can anyone throw light on why in this case "krung" is used for "city"?

Krung is of Khmer origin and appears nowhere else in Thai town names. "Town" is usually either nakhon, as in Nakhon Pathom, Nakhon Sawan etc., or -buri, as in Kanchanaburi, Lopburi etc.

Was krung an "en vogue" word when Ban Makok was renamed Krung Thep? All the towns with nakhon or -buri in their names are of course much older than the relatively young Krung Thep/Bangkok. Or did krung just sound more unique? I wonder.

It's also quite unusual to have a Khmer-Skt. compound in a town name here. The only other one I can think of is Nakhon Phanom (Khmer phnom = mountain).

[dr_Pat_Pong]

We all know what the name Krung Thep means, but can anyone throw light on why in this case "krung" is used for "city"?

Krung is of Khmer origin and appears nowhere else in Thai town names. "Town" is usually either nakhon, as in Nakhon Pathom, Nakhon Sawan etc., or -buri, as in Kanchanaburi, Lopburi etc.

Was krung an "en vogue" word when Ban Makok was renamed Krung Thep? All the towns with nakhon or -buri in their names are of course much older than the relatively young Krung Thep/Bangkok. Or did krung just sound more unique? I wonder.

It's also quite unusual to have a Khmer-Skt. compound in a town name here. The only other one I can think of is Nakhon Phanom (Khmer phnom = mountain).

There's no mountain around Bangkok. Probably a word of differentiation from the Nakhon Nowhere's

[PvtDick]

I understand that "krung" is used only in relation to the capital city, whereas "nakhon" is an ordinary city.

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

I understand that "krung" is used only in relation to the capital city, whereas "nakhon" is an ordinary city.

That would make perfect sense.

[chanchao]

Possibly... Though, Ayudhtaya is in full: Phra Nakorn Sri Ayudthaya. Shows like that on official things and even car license plates from there. So with "Nakhorn" in there. And it's very much a (ex-)capital & respected holy city. My dictionary has 'capital (city)' for both Nakorn as well as Krung. Actually for Ayudthaya you sometimes also hear 'Krung Sri Ayudthaya (as in the bank name).

Actually, Bangkok DOES have Nakhorn in it, as for most official occaisions, news broadcasts and such, the name 'Krung Thep Maha Nakhorn' is used. Appears like that on Bangkok car license plates too.

Then again, as a prefix for captials of other countries, krung is also used. As in Krung London, Krung Paris, Krung Rome, etc. Yet I couldn't find any "krung new york" on Google, or any other non-capital big city with krung..

[chanchao]

(Now some geeky person can fill in the full name of Bangkok... )

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

Possibly...  Though, Ayudhtaya is in full:  Phra Nakorn Sri Ayudthaya.  Shows like that on official things and even car license plates from there.  So with "Nakhorn" in there.  And it's very much a (ex-)capital & respected holy city.  My dictionary has 'capital (city)' for both Nakorn as well as Krung.  Actually for Ayudthaya you sometimes also hear 'Krung Sri  Ayudthaya (as in the bank name). 

This might support my initial hypothesis that the word "krung" could have become "en vogue" at a relative late point in time. Ayutthaya is of course a much older town than Bkk. (As an aside, I always find it ironic that Ayutthaya, the name meaning "[The town] not to be warred upon" was almost completely destroyed in war.)

Charoen Krung Rd., the "Road of the Prosperous [Capital] City), was built and named in the 1860's, also at a relative late stage. Interesting to note that in this case the adjective is placed in front of the noun, whereas normally in Thai it's vice versa.

[meadish_sweetball]

Sorry to stick my neck out, but I always interpreted "[Thanon] Charoen Krung" in the usual Thai sense, in which case it might be translated as "[the road] intended to make the city prosper".

I have nothing to back that up, though. Is the translation you present an official one?

[p1p]

(Now some geeky person can fill in the full name of Bangkok... )

OK, you wanted it, the certified longest place name in the world:

Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Piman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit.

Hopefully I'm not too much of a geek!

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

Sorry to stick my neck out, but I always interpreted "[Thanon] Charoen Krung" in the usual Thai sense, in which case it might be translated as "[the road] intended to make the city prosper".

I have nothing to back that up, though. Is the translation you present an official one?

I've never seen an official translation, but I don't think "Thanon Charoen" would make any sense. "The road that makes ... prosperous" sounds a bit far-fetched to me - firstly as a translation, and secondly as an idea or concept.

It would be interesting to find other adjective-plus-Krung combinations to see which way round they're placed. I would except Krung Thai Bank from that since it's probably a fairly modern name.

[PvtDick]

Other "krung" roads, off the top of my head, are:

Chalongkrung Road

Krungkasem Road

then, there are the numerous roads that use "Krung" as being short for Krungthep, together with another geographic locality linked by the road, such as:

Krungthonburi Road

Krungthep-Nonthaburi Road

Krungthep-Kreetha Road

[chanchao]

And krung thon bridge of course.. :-)

As for Charoen Krung being an exception in that it's an adjective in front of a noun, I wonder if this is specific for the word 'charoen' ? Indeed there are some roads in Chiang Mai with charoen in it and both also appear in front. (charoen prathet, charoen muang and charoen rat; all mean pretty much the same too and are close together. ;-)

Is charoen really an adjective though? When it appears after a noun then it's actually a name, not an adjective.. As in 'Raan Charoen', "Charoen Store" . (Funnily enough my dictionary lists is as a verb.. weird.. I can just about see adverb.. )

[PvtDick]

I believe "charoen" it is used as a verb, rather than an adjective, in those street names you mention. Ie., Charoenkrung = "to make the capital prosperous".

[snowleopard]

(Now some geeky person can fill in the full name of Bangkok... )

With complimentary translations included for dessert!

krungthep mahanakorn

The great city of angels,

amorn rattanakosin mahintara yutthaya mahadilok phop

the supreme unconquerable land of the great immortal divinity (Indra),

noparat rajathani burirom

the royal capital of nine noble gems, the pleasant city,

udomrajaniwes mahasatharn

with plenty of grand royal palaces,

amorn phimarn avatarnsathit

and divine paradise for the reincarnated deity (Vishnu),

sakkatattiya visanukam prasit

given by Indra and created by the god of crafting (Visnukarma).

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

And krung thon bridge of course.. :-)

As for Charoen Krung being an exception in that it's an adjective in front of a noun, I wonder if this is specific for the word 'charoen' ?  Indeed there are some roads in Chiang Mai with charoen in it and both also appear in front. (charoen prathet, charoen muang and charoen rat; all mean pretty much the same too and are close together. ;-)

Is charoen really an adjective though?  When it appears after a noun then it's actually a name, not an adjective..  As in 'Raan Charoen', "Charoen Store" .  (Funnily enough my dictionary lists is as a verb.. weird.. I can just about see adverb.. )

Yes, you're right. I know Charoen Prathet Rd. but never thought of it. "Charoen" does seem a strange word and I have a suspicion it might also be of Khmer origin.

Tai-derived word are mostly one-syllable-words, and I can't think of a Sanskrit word which could be the root of "charoen". It would be interesting to know in which order noun and adjective are placed in Khmer.

Strange, that "charoen" is supposed to be a verb. In expressions like "kon charoen" it is clearly used as an adjective.

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

(Now some geeky person can fill in the full name of Bangkok... )

With complimentary translations included for dessert!

krungthep mahanakorn

The great city of angels,

amorn rattanakosin mahintara yutthaya mahadilok phop

the supreme unconquerable land of the great immortal divinity (Indra),

noparat rajathani burirom

the royal capital of nine noble gems, the pleasant city,

udomrajaniwes mahasatharn

with plenty of grand royal palaces,

amorn phimarn avatarnsathit

and divine paradise for the reincarnated deity (Vishnu),

sakkatattiya visanukam prasit

given by Indra and created by the god of crafting (Visnukarma).

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

These translations are often a bit loose. "Amorn", which crops up in this translation one time as "supreme", and another time as "divine", actually means "eternal" (from Skt. amara = lit. "undying").

Vishnukarma is correctly speaking the heavenly architect of Indra.

Interesting to note also that all the words in this exhaustingly long name are of Sanskrit origin, with the exeption of "krung".

[Johpa]

Krung is of Khmer origin and appears nowhere else in Thai town names. "Town" is usually either nakhon,

Seeing how most aspects of the Thai Royal court was borrowed from the neighboring Khmer empire including architecture, court structure, symbolisms, and even Royal Thai (raatchasaap is really plain Khmer) it is no wonder that the nascent Thai court decided to borrow a Khmer influenced word for the new capitol.

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

Seeing how most aspects of the Thai Royal court was borrowed from the neighboring Khmer empire including architecture, court structure, symbolisms, and even Royal Thai (raatchasaap is really plain Khmer) it is no wonder that the nascent Thai court decided to borrow a Khmer influenced word for the new capitol.

Good point. Ratchasaap is indeed mainly from Khmer, though the name itself is from Sanskrit (raja-shabda = royal sounds/words/language).

Aside from Khmer, there are also some Sanskrit elements in Ratchasaap, but these may have been imported into Cambodia by Indian Brahmins. Indian-Khmer Brahmins later settled in Nakhon Si Thammarat and were subsequently invited to the court of Ayutthaya. Their few remaining descendants can be found at the Brahmin Temple (Bot Prahm) in Sao-Ching-Cha, Bangkok.

A word like "savoey" (eat) is undoubtedly from Khmer, but I reckon "sadet" (royal procession) is from Sanskrit (I'm not sure how it's spelled in Thai). Another interesting subject in itself!

[meadish_sweetball]

Strange, that "charoen" is supposed to be a verb. In expressions like "kon charoen" it is clearly used as an adjective.

It is not so strange as it may seem at first. The structure of Thai is less clear cut than that of Indo-European languages.

My Haas presents "jaroen" as a verb primarily, meaning 1) progress, advance, develop, grow, thrive, propser. 2) fig. to pursue, cultivate, promote (in certain expressions only) and in the example of "khon jaroen", it is used as an attribute to "Khon", but not an adjective - He develops his people. They are now "developed people".

Traditional grammar is a blunt instrument for dissecting Thai, since this grammar was developed with Latin as a yardstick. Whenever a language was analysed and found to differ from Latin, linguists would deem that this language was "incorrect", which is as absurd as to say that a banana is incorrect because it doesn't look like an orange.

Still, to stick with the familiar labels, adjectives and verbs are closer to each other in Thai than in Indo-european languages (the copula can be said to be included in the "adjective", which means that the words which are classified as adjectives gain a more verbal character, whereby they are sometimes clasified as "adjectival verbs"), and the flexibility of words jumping the traditional grammatic boundaries are greater.

To build on your pattern of khon jaroen:

khon (thii) ruu - people (who) know = "informed people"

thanon (thii) jaroen krung - the street (which) makes the (capital) city prosperous

That is the basic pattern I was talking about in my previous post.

[Richard W]

Good point. Ratchasaap is indeed mainly from Khmer, though the name itself is from Sanskrit (raja-shabda = royal sounds/words/language).

Aside from Khmer, there are also some Sanskrit elements in Ratchasaap, but these may have been imported into Cambodia by Indian Brahmins. Indian-Khmer Brahmins later settled in Nakhon Si Thammarat and were subsequently invited to the court of Ayutthaya. Their few remaining descendants can be found at the Brahmin Temple (Bot Prahm) in Sao-Ching-Cha, Bangkok.

A word like "savoey" (eat) is undoubtedly from Khmer, but I reckon "sadet" (royal procession) is from Sanskrit (I'm not sure how it's spelled in Thai). Another interesting subject in itself!

Ratchasap (ราชาศัพท์) is indeed compsed of Sanskrit elements, but if composed in Sanskrit, the second vowel would be short, giving *ราชศัพท์. The form of this word in Khmer also has a long vowel in the second syllable.

A word like "savoey" (eat) is undoubtedly from Khmer, but I reckon "sadet" (royal procession) is from Sanskrit (I'm not sure how it's spelled in Thai). Another interesting subject in itself!

'sadet' (เสด็จ) does not seem to be Sanskrit. The spelling - sor-dor, not sor-tor and the short /e/ both argue against Sanskrit or Pali as the origin. The syllabic structure (sesquisyllabic) argues for Mon or Khmer, as it isn't breaking up a Sanskrit consonant cluster. In the sense of 'his highness', I assume สมด็จ is a more elevated form, though normally (in Khmer loans in Thai, at least) the infix is -am-, not -om-.

At least the RID gives the etymology of "savoey" (เสวย).

[Richard W]

Traditional grammar is a blunt instrument for dissecting Thai, since this grammar was developed with Latin as a yardstick. Whenever a language was analysed and found to differ from Latin, linguists would deem that this language was "incorrect", which is as absurd as to say that a banana is incorrect because it doesn't look like an orange.

What of the native tradition? I admit a Sanskrit starting point may be no better than a Latin starting point.

[meadish_sweetball]

QUOTE (meadish_sweetball @ Sat 2004-06-05, 09:59:08)

Traditional grammar is a blunt instrument for dissecting Thai, since this grammar was developed with Latin as a yardstick. Whenever a language was analysed and found to differ from Latin, linguists would deem that this language was "incorrect", which is as absurd as to say that a banana is incorrect because it doesn't look like an orange. 

What of the native tradition? I admit a Sanskrit starting point may be no better than a Latin starting point.

I can only speak of what I know, and while I have heard that grammar was developed and practiced in India independently of Europe, I do not know anything else about it, and what is more, I do not know any Sanskrit either, apart from what little shards I have been able to pick up through the highly polarized filter of the Thai language.

In other words, I cannot follow much of your reasoning, or that of The Ghost of Phoolan Devi, simply because I lack the proper knowledge - and I do not have the time (am not interested enough?) to take the trouble to acquire it. My primary interest is Thai. Good point though.

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

A word like "savoey" (eat) is undoubtedly from Khmer, but I reckon "sadet" (royal procession) is from Sanskrit (I'm not sure how it's spelled in Thai). Another interesting subject in itself!

Ratchasap (ราชาศัพท์) is indeed compsed of Sanskrit elements, but if composed in Sanskrit, the second vowel would be short, giving *ราชศัพท์. The form of this word in Khmer also has a long vowel in the second syllable.

You're right of course, it's a short a as in "shabda".

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

khon (thii) ruu - people (who) know = "informed people"

thanon (thii) jaroen krung - the street (which) makes the (capital) city prosperous

That is the basic pattern I was talking about in my previous post.

I can see your point now. Unfortunately, the moment Thanon Charoen Krung becomes Charoen Krung Rd. the original meaning gets obscured.