Pond - Lagoon

[bubbaba]

I would like to develope, as part of my landscaping, a small lagoon-pond that would be stocked with editable fish.

I live near Khorat. The soil looks like clay, however, I don't think it would hold water. I would like the lagoon-pond to wander over approximately 25% of a Rai of land. I think the lagoon-pond should be about 1.5 meter deep in the middle with slooping sides. Something like Lumpini Park Lagoon only much, much smaller.

We have many fruit trees and a few other types of trees plus an area for garden, about 30' by 30'. The location of the trees would dictate the direction of, wandering of, the lagoon.

How would I build something like this? Any ideas? Cement sides, plastic, clay, what? What about depth? How do you control plant growth?

What ever and all information would be appreciated. Thanks guys.

[RamdomChances]

Depends on what type of soil you have and how far down the watertable is. Clay holds water beter, but you'll always get some seapage, if you don't get down to the water table it will probaly dry out in hot season just through evaporation.

I'd try to go deeper than 1.5 meters, Mabye a plastic membrane covered with soil, it wont be 100% water tight but will help, obviously if you get down to water you need to make sure it can get into your pond. Netting on the banks helps keep the sides from eroding and stuff will eventually grow through it.

1/4 rai actually isnt that big, mine's about 1/2 rai, fish should help to keep the veg down, I've got pak-bung in mine which you can eat as well and it does'nt get overgrown. I'd like some water lotous but I don't think the pond is big enough, you can also eat the seeds off that (might have the wrong name for that, it's called Dok Bua in thai). Another one is Pak Bout (?? Havent a clue what it called in english) but these grow really quickly and are'nt very nice, both the last two help keep the water clean as well.

Fish if you're not wanting to do it commercialy then I'd do a mix Pla Taptin/Pla Nin (vegies) Pal Dook (Catfish, omnivors) and Pla Chon (Carnivors) keep the numbers of Pla Chon much lower than the rest, you should'nt have any problems with algae either as the fish will eat it. Trees up to you I don't really know much about them, I have'nt got any around mine but would like some. Bannana is popular but probaly cos it likes lots of water.

Digging you should get it for free if you don't want the soil, there are a couple of posts on digger prices around but say 1,000-1,800/hour, a tractor to profile the ground about 400 bhat/hr, you may need to hire a truck as well if you want to move the earth any distance.

You need to think about some form of overflow for the wet season especialy if you have a large catchment area (mine will fill from just about empty with one good downpour)

[bubbaba]

Thank you RC for the information. I really appreciate it. I want to do many things, but, lack of information really makes life tuff sometimes.

I notice on this or another forum that you are out of the farming business and going back home for awhile. I am sorry to hear about your problems. I wish you the best of luck.

If I don't get down to the water table and my lagoon-pond would dry up during the hot weather, how many times a year do you think it would dry. Would I have to refill it once a year, two or more times a year?

What do you think about using cement?

We are building/living on my mother-in-law's farm. About 30 plus rai here and maybe another 30 or so rai scattered around the local area here. They have a hand dug well with cement rings like you use for septic tanks. She say's it is 37 meters deep. I uncovered the well and looked in. It's about 30 to 40 feet to water. The well has not been used for a few years since the pump died. Is it correct to assume that that is the water table for this area?

I plan to fill the pond, if necessary, from the well. I could also keep it topped up from the well. My mother in law and I both have a small garden area. If I wind the small lagoon from the pond area to near to my garden and then on to hers and then back to the pond area we could get water for the gardens from lagoon and maybe some free fertilizer too. I also plan to build some type of water falls for beauty, sound, and looks and possibly a way to add air to the water. Along this lagoon I also plan to plant in pots, underwater, some of the plants (don't know the names) along the way for beauty with maybe some type of walking path near the lagoon. (I would love to do this plan on mother in laws 30 plus rai, but I don't want to start a family war - but it is a nice thought for a large lagoon.) Does this plan sound workable? Any info?

Don't worry about telling me words in Thai. My wife speaks english well and when she is away on business I live in a moo baan where I think I am the only english speaking person. My mother in law speaks only a lao-thai whatever. My dictionary and sign language works best. I am learning Thai fast. Just give me info in Thai or English and my wife can sort if out.

Thank you again.

[RamdomChances]

Yes out for the time being, thanks for the well wishes.

Drying out. To be honest I've no idea. Evapouration rates vary so much, I've done some checking on the net and just through putting some water into something and seeing how much it goes down, say very roughly 1cm a day. Sepage is another problem, ponds will naturaly self seal to a certain extent over a few years. A plastic membrain will help, even if its just rolls of plastic layered over each other and covered with earth, I think you can get actual pond liners and they hot glue the seams but I don't really know anything about them.

I'm not sure on cement, it's going to be expensive, you could probably sort you well out or drill a bore for the same price. You'd probaly get some leaching at least initialy, I don't think it looks that nice either and creates a pretty sterile enviroment unless you cover it with earth.

I keep my fish mainly for eating and sell some now and again, pretty low intensity with minimum feeding, to do that you need to create some sort of eco-system, get some bugs in there ( a light above the pond is good) some algae (manure) and some plants, not sure how concrete would fit into that

I would of thought that the top level of the water is the current water table so 30-40 feet would be about 10 meters down ? You wont get that far with your pond and even if you did it would'nt look nice. I keep mine toped up from my bore and it does'nt take that much, I have'nt put any in for about 2 weeks and its droped about 50 cm, I can put about 10 cm in just leaving it run overnight. My problem is drainage, forgot to put an overflow in when I was building it and I have a huge catchment area which is why I'm runing it down a bit at the moment as if we have a storm it will be briming.

It sounds a lovely plan, I'd like to do something simular later mabye go up to about 1-1.5 rai, definatly build a sala into it. If its going to be ornamental as well you really need to be able to regulate the level otherwise even without it drying out your going to have an ugly muddy puddle in the dry season.

I usually try to put both Thai and English words into the post because both are usually spelt wrong so it gives people a double chance of understanding me

There a lot of the guys here with ponds but mainly for fish farming they could probably at quite a bit, where are you staying anyway ?

Oh forgot, if you dont have mains drainage and just rely on the Thai style soak away pits you might run into a few probes, if the bottom of the pit is below the top water level of the pond they will fill up much more rapidly, mabye worth getting a few more dug before hand, they are'nt expensive. Dry season we don't ever have to pump ours out rainy about once a week.

RC

[Francis Maube]

We experienced with digging fish ponds a few years ago, so here is what I can contribute. The soil is also light clay, the water table is about 8 meters below the surface, the ponds are about 3 meters deep. We did not lay any plastic sheet, concrete or whatever. Well, they simply do not hold any water, so the water pump had to run all day but since we are on the river it was not much of a problem, except of course the amount of diesel that had to be used. We ended up planting teak trees in the ponds and they are doing just fine.

When it comes to concrete here is what we learned. There was a concrete pond when we bought the land, nearly 20 years ago. The cement job did not look well though, although the previous owner had poured a lot but was not reinforced. Since the land was not watered the clay would contract and expand according to the rainy and dry season thus causing the concrete to crack and leak. We tried to fill it up a couple of times but even with the pump delivered about a 100 US gallon a minute, it would not hold much and certainly not for very long. We ended up filling it up with the soil excavated from the new ponds...and planted teak on it.

Its not much but hope it will help a bit.

[bubbaba]

I noticed in some other place on this forum that there was instructions for making a concret pool/pond that would be adquate for keeping koi and the like. The construction of a pond such as this is much more, I think, then what would be needed for a simple fish pond, lagoon type thing.

Is there anywhere on this forum, instructions for making a simple fish pond with cement, plastic, etc? A simple step by step procedure.

[macb]

Well have a bore on the farm not far from my house about 50 metres away, and its been emptied, idea make deeper with digger and make tidy and make a fishing platform for me and friends and add some fish, pla nin pla douk any advice guys, plant coconut and banana round the edges

[chownah]

I don't know what you mean when you say that the bore has been emptied...do you mean that it ran out of water during this dry season or do you mean that it never has any water ever.

[RamdomChances]

Macb do you mean your pond ? generaly as I understand it a Bore is a small diameter hole drilled down to the water table and the water pumped out. Anyway if it's your pond have a look here

edited as posts now merged

[macb]

chowna and Randomchances :

Sorry my pond its living in Khmer village now I speak like them lol.

They call them bores, so yeah its a pond and they a mixture of drying up cos its shallow and purposeful emptying took the fish out ready for me to make deeper and wider I think, I will get some pics as it is at the moment and post here

[RamdomChances]

I've merged the two topics

[thedi]

When it comes to concrete here is what we learned. There was a concrete pond when we bought the land, nearly 20 years ago. The cement job did not look well though, although the previous owner had poured a lot but was not reinforced. Since the land was not watered the clay would contract and expand according to the rainy and dry season thus causing the concrete to crack and leak. We tried to fill it up a couple of times but even with the pump delivered about a 100 US gallon a minute, it would not hold much and certainly not for very long. We ended up filling it up with the soil excavated from the new ponds...and planted teak on it.

Its not much but hope it will help a bit.

Hello Francis

I am about to redo my pond in the garden in our home in Khon Kaen. It is about 1 rai, 3 meters deep. The water was very turbid and muddy (visibility about 25 cm only). Last month I pumped out what there was left of it (a bit more than 1 meter). The ground was covered by about 50cm to 1m of clay slick. I have now 8 men dig this clay slick out and deposit in a corner of the garden. I will plant gras there to keep it from going back to the pond with the rain.

I had too much fish in the pond before, they eat all water plants. Now I want to restart the pond with new water, less and smaller fish and more water plants.

My goal is a pond where I can swim - but not a swimming pool - just a pond with lotus and other water plants at the border. The water does not have to be clear like in a swimming pool, but acceptable to go for a swim (visibility 1m or more). As I said above, before the water was very turmid and muddy from the clay slick which was chummed by the fish (white fish, 100 of about 1 kilo and a lot of smaller ones).

I plan to lay out the ground with cement and sandstone plates, just enough to have a firm ground, maybe 3 to 5 cm thick. I do not mind, if this sealing breaks up, the goal is not to keep the water in the pond - the clay solves this problem. The goal is only to have a firm ground and less problems with turbid water from clay which may be chummed by fish and playing kids.

The banks will be natural earth, so I can plant lotus and other water plants. The cement & sandstone plates will be only in the center, where the pond is 2 to 3 meter deep. On the banks I will make steps with small walls and earth filled up, so I can use plants which like different water levels and the banks will not erode into to deep part of the pond.

My question to you: when your pond with a concret ground broke up with the contracting and expanding of the clay, how did it break up?

Were there just cracks so it did not hold water or did it break up completly, so that my goal, to seal away at least 95% of the clay would not work too?

My pond gets only rain water from our garden. The water level differs from 1.5m to 3m. So I may run into this kind of problems with expanding and shrinking clay es well.

Whould it be better to use just gravel instead of cement, so it could move with the contracting and expanding clay?

---

An other point: i had a small koy pond in front of the house which was made of cement. The water was always green from algae. Last year I changed the fish there too - it has now only very small fish and planted more plants and installed a filter system. There is now clear water in that small pond.

My question: will I have an algae (green water) problem when I use cement in the big pond?

Any suggestions would be greatly appriciated.

Thedi [email protected]

[Maizefarmer]

Your problem here will be the concreate base cracking - especialy in the dry season when the natural water table drops and the earth beneath the base dries out and starts to move.

Here an idea to consider:

Find a building site where they are tearing down some buildings. Offer to to take the hardcore (they will delivery it for free if not to far). Spread this out on the base. Throw into/onto it a weak concreate slush - very watery so it runs into the spaces between the hardcore and acts as a stabiliser. Stick bent nails or 4" pieces of bent 1/8" re-bar - spaced roughly every 24" - 36" (as much as 48" - 60" will also be fine)

Alow to dry for a few days.

Over this lay re-bar mesh 6" - 8" sqaure will be fine. Tie it down with wire to the nails/hooks you located earlier.

Over this throw your concreate base - about 1.5" - 2" thick will be more than enough. Add waterproofing and strengthing powder/liquid to the mix.

Spary 3 or 4 times per day with water as it cures - keep it moist and allow to cure for about 10 - 14 days before filling.

If you wish to slope of profile the base and sides - establish the gradient from the highst part of the land to the lowest part of the land and place a bottom drain at the lowest part (of course do this before you throw you mix). You may even consider putting a "trap" at the drain point (a square hole 6' sides and 6' deep) - with grid over it it will act as a good low point for all the shit and other rubish to settle in.

Just how you intend to keep the water clear (if thats what you want) with a shallow pond that size, is another story. You are going to battle I think, unless you also invest in a filter system (theres a thread somewhere on the forum with some basic info on natural type filters you could read).

MF

[macb]

I've merged the two topics

Well what I am going to do is dig out the pond or shall I call it lake it is dry now and fish have been collected.

It is very shallow I want to go about 3 metres deep make bank and plant banana and coconut and use part of the bank top to plant veg herbsa etc.

It will be fenced off to keep the cattle out etc.

Tomorrow will get some pics as mentioned before to post on here.

Thanks RC for the Merge

[ozzydom]

For starters a 1 rai concreted pond is a huge and expensive undertaking, you are talking 5-600k baht concrete alone without rebar,probably all up way over a million baht, then you will still be left with the problem of algae, silting up during the wet season etc.

Unless its a mountain lake you will not have clear water,and to filter that amount of water would be expensive in the extreme. Look around the ponds,water storage ,lakes in Thailand how many are clear?

My feeling is that you are better to try and go along with the natural processes of nature .IE dry and wet seasons,you will not beat them but by a bit of planning you can alleviate or minimise many of the problems.

Whether square,rectangular or contoured there are a few things that can be done to achieve a satisfactory result.

Two metres is ample for a pond as any deeper sunlight does not penetrate and the water in the deeper pond will be rank.

If fish is the main useage ,most fish only live in the top 0.5-1metre.

The banks should be minimum 3 to 1 ratio as an absolute minimum,the banks should be netted then overplanted with ready to lay lawn sections,this will minimise the effects of erosion which is the main contributor to muddy pools.

At 4 or 5 to 1 ratio it can be mowed (with a catcher). The green colour ed water in ponds is normally zooplankton and micro organisms which live on the litter which ends up in the pond and breaks down, these are also food for fish such as Pla Nin.

Large trees look nice around a pond but add a huge amount of debris and humus into your pond,so when planning look to plants and trees which dont shed to much. Lemon Grass is a great soil retainer if close planted around the top edge of your embankments and looks nice within a year or two.

Thats enough to digest in one go .These suggestions come from my own experiences with our 3x1rai ponds here in Issan and my Landscaping experience in Oz. PM me if you have questions that I might be able to help with.

Cheers

Dom

[Lickey]

Ozzydom, a very good informative post!! we have 6 rai of spare hillside clean land and when we had irrigation problems in jan/feb/mar {borehole drying up } i considered having a lagoon done for water catchment in the coming wet season, i saw a post about giving away soil for free and Ms got 2 operators to look at land, its a heavy red clay soil, both were very interested and if they needed soil would be in touch, bring a backhoe and take what they wanted, {point of interest, a backhoe in UK is a wheeled JCB with a bucket on the front and a backacter digger arm on the back, the usual ones i see here are known as 360s and are tracked} anyway, this fella said no need for any lining, if we could give him a good water supply down the sides of the lagoon, he would whack the clay soil hard with 360 ditching bucket and should be water tight within a year, Have yet to hear from him for soil..

If this does happen, netting the banks and planting a binding weed of sorts sounds like its the best way to hold banks together, I absolutley agree with you about planting trees around lagoon, the debris ive seen in local lagoons looks terrible, the waters are a muddy yellow and i cant see 13mm under the surface, perhaps covering it with the same netting we use over the salad beds, lagoon size would be about half rai so i think this cover would be cheap enough,

Good post Ozzy, given me lots of ideas, cheers, Lickey..

[macb]

WEll yesterday took the pics as promised of the pond/lake/bore whatever we are going to refer to it as, I paced it out its about 21 m x 25 m.

Intention remove some of the trees not all, make it deeper and bigger where can plant as mentioned previously and put a fishing platform in for me, and then add some fish pla nin pla douk etc.

[chownah]

Macb,

Are you going to keep the rectangular shape or give it some curves?

Chownah

[ozzydom]

WEll yesterday took the pics as promised of the pond/lake/bore whatever we are going to refer to it as, I paced it out its about 21 m x 25 m.

Intention remove some of the trees not all, make it deeper and bigger where can plant as mentioned previously and put a fishing platform in for me, and then add some fish pla nin pla douk etc.

macb, you can make a nice pond out of what I see in the piccy,s, any shape you desire, all you need is a tractor with blade, from what I see an excavator is not necessary,after the wet season just pump the existing ponds dry and after drying out for a few weeks, attack it.

A tractor makes less mess and does a better job of long angle embankments, notice the lack of erosion in the pond with long angle banks.

I get 1 rai ponds dug by tractor for between 7 and10k.Great potential there to bring your plans to fruition.

A floating pontoon and walkway would be great for relaxing on or tossing a line.Easy to build and always a constant height from the water.

[macb]

pics I thought I had put them on here never mind here they are again:

THe lake pond bore whatever paced out measures 21m x25 m there is a chicken hut close to one edge thats going to be moved so the site will be bigger,.

[Sakeopete]

We built our pond February of 2005 it measured 45m x 25m 3.5m with no lining. I kept the soil and it cost us about 80k and took 3 days with a backhoe and 2 dump trucks. As soon as the rainy season started I had about 100 trees planted around the pond mango, coconut, tamarind, jack fruit and banana plants. I let the natural grasses cover the ground using a gas trimmer to keep it neat. We didn't stock the pond but it is teaming with many different varieties of fish. I decided to help the ecosystem by transferring plants from a nice pond on government land to my pond plus added some manure to help bacterial growth and nitrates. The pond has not gone dry through the 2 dry seasons and we use it to water the trees and some crops.