U.S. warships sail in disputed South China Sea amid tensions

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

3 hours ago, zydeco said:

They're not disputed. They're illegal.

No international legal ruling on the ownership of the islands or the maritime boundaries. That’s why it is still disputed. 

Which is the oversight that allowed the Chinese to build them while people in power languidly gazed at the constantly updating satellite imagery, happy with China's statements that they were for peaceful purposes only.

 

Then all of a sudden there was guns and bombs and rockets on them!

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

It’s building in disputed islands not illegal islands. That aside, I agree with you that it’s a provocative act by China. 

That and making reefs and shallows, that for some were submerged for maybe 90% of the time and thus not UNCLOS classified as anything that can be claimed to have a 'coast', suddenly becoming islands.

 

...with coasts.

Edited November 22, 2019 by NanLaew

[Bundooman]

9 hours ago, Traubert said:

China is preventing that how exactly?

Try educating yourself - find out!

[bristolboy]

5 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

Yeah thats what they need, popping a shot at the US and starting a war they cant win. Glad to see you are advocating for the death of millions of chinese

If ever there was an example of a Pavlovian response this is it. Has it occurred to you that just possibly nobody could win such a war? Do ya think only a few Americans are going to die should such a conflict occur? 

[MeePeeMai]

6 hours ago, rabas said:

Not quite as provocative as building illegal islands in the middle of busy international waterways, claiming them as your territory and covering them with military bases advanced radars and offensive weapon systems.

 

 

.... but the Chinese claim they are just rest areas for the Chinese fishermen!

[bristolboy]

On 11/22/2019 at 8:22 AM, Traubert said:

Harass them how exactly?

Here's one instance of how:

Philippines reports harassment of its fishermen by Chinese ships near Scarborough

 

The Philippines said on Tuesday (Sept 27) that Filipino fishermen were harassed earlier this month by China's Coast Guard near a disputed atoll some 200km off its main island of Luzon.

In a report, the Philippine Coast Guard said three Chinese coast guard ships chased away three Philippine fishing boats near Scarborough shoal on Sept 6.

There was a brief chase and heated exchanges, the report said. 

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/philippines-reports-harassment-of-its-fishermen-by-chinese-ships-near-scarborough

Edited November 23, 2019 by metisdead
14) You will not post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles). Please only post a link, the headline and the first three sentences.

[Traubert]

10 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

Really dude? The entire world knows exactly what China is doing, except for Chines sycophants.

So tell me how they're preventing freedom of navigation in the SCS.

 

11 hours ago, Thainesss said:

 

This guy either fumes at the USA through personal bias or has zero clue what China does to other SEA nations - or both. 

Im gonna guess both. 

Guess away but you still didn't answer the question.

 

It's a carbon copy of the 'erosion of freedoms' argument in Hong Kong. Everybody says it but no-one can explain how.

[Number 6]

4 minutes ago, Traubert said:

They aren't trying or trying to stop anyone sailing through it. 80% of the trade that sails through there is Chinese so they'd be pretty dim to that eh?

 

By the way, Phillipines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia and Taiwan have also occupied islands in the SCS that are under dispute. Is that fkucing serious too, or just the Chinese? Vietnam has 43 militarised islands in the region, China 5 allegedly. Plus China've agreed with Duterte to jointly explore oil reserves in the region.

 

You're all just reading western Sinophobic news.

The difference is that those nations you've mentioned at least have some tacit, superficial claim on those reefs especially Philippines, Taiwan and Vietnam. Mainland Communist China's claim is an utter joke. If the Filipinos had any balls they would have blown those islands up years ago.

[wwest5829]

12 hours ago, Traubert said:

Yeah, all of SE Asia rolls it's eyes thinks 'oh just sod off will you....'

In the loop of the discussions between these nations on this subject are we?

[wwest5829]

12 hours ago, Traubert said:

China is preventing that how exactly?

The peoples Republic of China has unilaterally declared 90% of the South china Sea as its own foreign territory, built the artificial land masses and militarized the same. They are stating that no nation has the right to sail in these international waters if approaching their new lands claim. The International Court in the Hague has already ruled that China has no justification for this sovereignty claim. The rub is coming from the US and other nations ignoring China's claim. Tension caused by China's actions.

[wwest5829]

8 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

No international legal ruling on the ownership of the islands or the maritime boundaries. That’s why it is still disputed. 

Iternational Court in the Hague has ruled that China has no right under international law to make its unilateral claims in the South China Skas.

 

[placnx]

The main objective of these "islands" as well as the air control zones is to make it impossible for the US or anybody else to help Taiwan avoid Anschluss with the Fatherland. 

[Traubert]

3 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

The peoples Republic of China has unilaterally declared 90% of the South china Sea as its own foreign territory, built the artificial land masses and militarized the same. They are stating that no nation has the right to sail in these international waters if approaching their new lands claim. The International Court in the Hague has already ruled that China has no justification for this sovereignty claim. The rub is coming from the US and other nations ignoring China's claim. Tension caused by China's actions.

It was actually the Republic of China and therefore by default the People's Republic, the People's Republic claiming full soverignty of the present day Taiwan and vice versa. Nobody wants Taiwan to be Chinese so they obligingly miss that bit out. Agreed they are saying that foreign warships should not broach the twelve mile limit, but so do all the other countries in the dispute, except by invitation or prior agreement.

 

The panel in the Hague was not a court, it was an arbitration panel raised unilaterally, and at the urge of the USA, by the Philippines. China never participated or indicated otherwise stating that they didn't recognise it. Duterte, since elected, said he disregarded it in exchange for concessions on infrastructure and assistance in his war on drugs. Only outsiders have their knickers in a knot about that.

 

China is a signatory to UNCLOS. Guess who isn't? Yeah, the people stirring the pot.

[Traubert]

14 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Here's one instance of how:

Philippines reports harassment of its fishermen by Chinese ships near Scarborough

 

The Philippines said on Tuesday (Sept 27) that Filipino fishermen were harassed earlier this month by China's Coast Guard near a disputed atoll some 200km off its main island of Luzon.

In a report, the Philippine Coast Guard said three Chinese coast guard ships chased away three Philippine fishing boats near Scarborough shoal on Sept 6.

There was a brief chase and heated exchanges, the report said. 

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/philippines-reports-harassment-of-its-fishermen-by-chinese-ships-near-scarborough

So you base your ideas on a three year old plus incident that ended in a stalemate, before the present accord between China and the then newly elected Duterte's Philippines?

 

Pardon my scepticism, but some here told me to educate myself.

[worgeordie]

There's an election coming up, so start a war ????

or at least give the population an enemy to hate,fear.

regards worgeordie

[impulse]

1 hour ago, Traubert said:

It was actually the Republic of China and therefore by default the People's Republic, the People's Republic claiming full soverignty of the present day Taiwan and vice versa. Nobody wants Taiwan to be Chinese so they obligingly miss that bit out. Agreed they are saying that foreign warships should not broach the twelve mile limit, but so do all the other countries in the dispute, except by invitation or prior agreement.

 

The panel in the Hague was not a court, it was an arbitration panel raised unilaterally, and at the urge of the USA, by the Philippines. China never participated or indicated otherwise stating that they didn't recognise it. Duterte, since elected, said he disregarded it in exchange for concessions on infrastructure and assistance in his war on drugs. Only outsiders have their knickers in a knot about that.

 

China is a signatory to UNCLOS. Guess who isn't? Yeah, the people stirring the pot.

 

So let's summarize...

 

China signed the UNCLOS, which specifies a mechanism to resolve disputes, and doesn't allow building islands where none exist then claim sovereignty over the surrounding waters. 

 

Then, in violation of the agreement they signed, they built islands where none existed, claimed sovereignty over the surrounding water and refused to resolve that issue according to the agreement they signed.

 

I have a lot more respect for nations that don’t sign agreements than the one that signs agreements they never intended to honor.

Edited November 22, 2019 by impulse

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, Traubert said:

So you base your ideas on a three year old plus incident that ended in a stalemate, before the present accord between China and the then newly elected Duterte's Philippines?

 

Pardon my scepticism, but some here told me to educate myself.

You don't like that one? How about this?

China blocking Malaysian and Vietnamese oil and gas vessels shows greater willingness to intimidate, says think tank

• Actions at Vanguard Bank in disputed Spratly Islands ‘raises collision risk’
• Think tank cites data showing China has harassed those countries’ ships for at least six weeks

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3018951/china-blocking-malaysian-and-vietnamese-oil-and-gas-vessels

[toast1]

Freedom is worth little to many here. 

 

 

[rabas]

Many are here for freedom.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by rabas

[RickTik]

There are multiple reasons why this latest U.S. warship event occurred in the South China Sea. Yes, the "freedom of navigation" right to travel freely in international waters is one of those reasons. However, you have to look at the whole story. I'll sum it up with two words: Hong Kong.

Translation? - External pressure from foreign "special interests" is being put on Beijing from multiple angles. 

Why? To make it more tricky and difficult for Beijing to aggressively go in and clean up the mess in Hong Kong.

"The Art of War"

Edited November 23, 2019 by RickTik
Fine tuning verbiage..

[tifino]

 I wonder how long before the South of China Sea, gets totally filled? 

Then they could totally surround Taiwan putting it into a captured lake! 

 

Chinese very quick to make islands...

- every one else waits until a volcano does it

[metisdead]

A post containing profanity has been removed as well as the replies:

 

8.) You will not post disruptive or inflammatory messages, vulgarities, obscenities or profanities.

 

Some other posts containing trolling language regarding barstools have been removed. 

[Bassosa]

China apparently doesn't need allies. The country is basically alienating itself from the rest of the world. What's the thought process behind that I wonder? Or is it just incompetence?

[NanLaew]

11 hours ago, Traubert said:

Duterte, since elected, said he disregarded it in exchange for concessions on infrastructure and assistance in his war on drugs.

 

As I mentioned in another thread, Duterte got a reach-around, got some freebies that played into China's opinion that deals must be made with individual marine stakeholders rather than the arguably harder to achieve but more logical 'international' agreement that would kick their wild and unfounded territorial claims into touch. Divide and conquer strategy 101.

Edited November 23, 2019 by NanLaew

[NanLaew]

15 hours ago, Traubert said:

So tell me how they're preventing freedom of navigation in the SCS.

 

In my sphere of work, it is persistent interference by Chinese flagged vessels with marine seismic surveys being done by service companies under legal contract to PetroVietnam and their partners within the Vietnamese EZ. The first one was around 2009, well before they invented the 9-dash-line and built islands on shoals. There's also drilling inside a deepwater Vietnamese offshore concession in 2015. I have pictures and videos and radar screen grabs of all of them as part or my assigned duties.

 

Much more recently, it is openly conducting their own marine seismic survey using Chinese flagged vessels operating well within the Vietnamese EZ. AIS radar tracking shows the Chinese seismic vessel using one of the newly created islands for operational resupply. This in conjunction with a Chinese flagged 'support vessel' roaming further afield and harassing Vietnamese supply vessels supporting pre-existing offshore oil and gas production facilities well inside the Vietnamese EZ, again using one of these Chinese islands for a home port.

Edited November 23, 2019 by NanLaew

[Eric Loh]

3 hours ago, Bassosa said:

China apparently doesn't need allies. The country is basically alienating itself from the rest of the world. What's the thought process behind that I wonder? Or is it just incompetence?

Perhaps the following link will help you to understand more of how China is engaging the world. You will be surprised by lots of information that will contradict your view that China doesn’t need allies. By the way. China contribute the most personnel in UN peacekeeping forces around the world. 
https://chinapower.csis.org/china-military-diplomacy/

[NanLaew]

13 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

Perhaps the following link will help you to understand more of how China is engaging the world. You will be surprised by lots of information that will contradict your view that China doesn’t need allies. By the way. China contribute the most personnel in UN peacekeeping forces around the world. 
https://chinapower.csis.org/china-military-diplomacy/

Good information, thanks for that.

 

Here is (another) analysis on how the current US Administration's disengagement with ASEAN and southeast Asia has played out. So far this year, the US State Department has given about the same attention to detail to this region as it has to Sub-Saharan Africa.

 

https://www.iseas.edu.sg/images/pdf/ISEAS_Perspective_2019_97.pdf

 

OUTLOOK

 

The political disconnect between the Trump administration and Southeast Asia is likely to continue for the remainder of 2019 and possibly into 2020. The White House is currently preoccupied with the impeachment inquiry into President Trump’s alleged abuse of power. The Congressional inquiry could stretch into 2020. Even if it does not, US politics will be dominated by the run-up to the November 2020 presidential election.

 

*Edited for Fair Use*

Edited November 23, 2019 by Scott
Edited for Fair Use

[Vacuum]

On 11/22/2019 at 12:25 AM, webfact said:

U.S. Navy warships, on two occasions in the past few days, have sailed near islands

'World police' at work.

[marqus12]

44 minutes ago, Vacuum said:

'World police' at work.

Very similar in action to a Thai policeman, only in the global version.

It is a pity that the Chinese version of the world is so uninspiring.

[NanLaew]

6 hours ago, Vacuum said:

'World police' at work.

Since around 2005, I have observed parts of maybe a dozen USN freedom of navigation exercises offshore Vietnam and PI. Most have been monitored on radar and quite distant but a few have eventuated where we were working. After a courteous exchange of formalities over the radio and confirming what we're about, we are wished fair seas and left to get on with it.

 

On the other hand, Chinese agency vessels have stalked our operations and on several occasions deployed trailing gear that severed our towed arrays, costing several hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment loss and damage. On other occasions, they have sailed on collision courses, forcing emergency maneuvers which aren't always easy when towing something about 5 nautical miles long. A couple of times, the Chinese Navy have also parked their destroyers beam-on less than 2 nm ahead while insisting we are in Chinese waters and need to stop, turn around and leave the area immediately. They are oblivious to the high risks they pose to our vessel and themselves since stopping or turning quickly are NOT available options for the survey vessel which is always displaying limited maneuverability flags and shapes and is identified as such in international notifications to shipping. Fleets of Chinese fishing boats have been known to jettison 'old' fishing nets containing steel warps and other debris that fouls the towed gear as well as wheels and steering of our picket boats as we sail through the mostly submerged debris field. Collectively, the time lost on these interruptions to our work has cost varying clients and contractors tens of millions of dollars.

 

Sometimes we wish the 'world police' would stick around and waive a gun at these latter day pirates and privateers.