Rice Crop Profitability

[farmerjo]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I'm not that bothered about organic farming, but always thought it was a bit short sighted, for the human race, to design and sell plants that can't reproduce.

I agree.

It's technology moving very fast.

All industries are similar,it's replacement rather than fix.

There still is choice for non sterile seeds out there but they do add risk.

[IsaanAussie]

Lets divert this back to topic. I came here Thailand over 20 years ago and have experienced the changes in rice farming during that time. In 1999 over 70% of the population derived their income from farming (including rice), today that figure is approaching half (including population increases). The annual rice production has been static on average and the cost of material inputs hasn't varied much. Whilst the farm gate price has varied it too has remained close to the same or has dropped slightly. That suggests there has been a productivity increase, most likely due to the introduction of mechanisation and the large reduction in manual manhours required.

I would be interested in other people's view on the effects on profitability of rice farming over the last 20 years. 

[kickstart]

11 minutes ago, IsaanAussie said:

Lets divert this back to topic. I came here Thailand over 20 years ago and have experienced the changes in rice farming during that time. In 1999 over 70% of the population derived their income from farming (including rice), today that figure is approaching half (including population increases). The annual rice production has been static on average and the cost of material inputs hasn't varied much. Whilst the farm gate price has varied it too has remained close to the same or has dropped slightly. That suggests there has been a productivity increase, most likely due to the introduction of mechanisation and the large reduction in manual manhours required.

I would be interested in other people's view on the effects on profitability of rice farming over the last 20 years. 

Some where I think the UK I have a photo of a buffalo  ploughing  a rice field in Issan that must be 20 plus years ago ,I would say that guy would have been a sustainable farmer ,those days are now gone ,he would now be using a Kwie - Lec ,but with a Kwie- Lec at 60-70 000 baht ,plus fuel costs ,makes the buffalo seem very cheap ,I know he can now produce a lot more rice than before ,and sell a lot more ,but is his bottom line any better than before?( not including government subs ).

My area is mainly corn and cane,and cassava ,with a few areas that grow rice ,the reason they grow rice is recourse nothing else will grow bar some cassava ,( sesame seed does well in some years ),land is Kee-Pet,very light and sandy ,they are now about all mechanized  tractor plough/rotavator does the land work combine does all the harvesting ,they would just sow they seed and and do the fertilizer and spraying them self's .

But, most small farmers will get some one in to do the tractor work and harvesting ,as before the Kwie -Lec did the land work rice was grown in a nursery bed and transplanted out ,then harvested by hand ,with the mobile thrasher ,trashing out the crop .

If you look mat they bottom line I would say they would be worse  off ,contracting charges taking away the profits ,and as we know very few new entrants are are taking up  farming as a career,these farmers  now can not physically do all the laboring involved with rice farming .  

Your suggestion that productivity has increased I would agree with you ,like I said contracting charges  are taking away that productivity increase. 

Again in this area the Achilles heel is rent charges wife's son in law is now paying 1200 baht/rie /year rent you need to grow some rice just to pay the rent ,a few bigger rice farmers rent more than they own even with mechanization and they own equipment,  just the rent alone makes making money hard. 

[farmerjo]

I must say i'm out of date with contractor prices for rice and in general.

I do know i tried contractors when i 1st came here and it prompted me to buy my own machinery.

The method of planting rice these days is still up for discussion.

Transfer from nursery,broadcast or direct drill with a planter.

That would be where you would see a difference in input costs.

[kickstart]

15 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

I must say i'm out of date with contractor prices for rice and in general.

I do know i tried contractors when i 1st came here and it prompted me to buy my own machinery.

The method of planting rice these days is still up for discussion.

Transfer from nursery,broadcast or direct drill with a planter.

That would be where you would see a difference in input costs.

I would say the way to go is direct drill with a drill ,ploughing ,pumping water,rotavating takes a big slice of the profit ,did you direct drill some rice ?and how did it do,

TV's slugs 11 posted some photos of his direct  drilled rice ,he said he was tired of getting tractor stuck  and just hard work ,and his crop looked a picture  ,I think that is the way to go .

With climate change and the shortage of water ,some farmers may not have a lot of chose ,and how long before we have Khow- Rie, dry land rice ,Thai's say Khow-Rie does not taste  the same ,but again   in the not so distant future ,they might no have a lot of chose. 

[IsaanAussie]

The main differentiator is water. Central plains is irrigated and can grow 3 or 4 crops of short season varieties.

Here in Isaan it's one crop of longer season Hom Mali. Without puddled paddies, options for planting are restricted to broadcast plough in or direct seeding. Without adequate rainfall Isaan has suffered by the re-emergence of diseases such as rice blast. 

Despite government attempts to limit off season rice crops in the central plains, they have been planted and the government is being forced to release water into the system which has reduced supply to the capital and increased the salt content of the river and even the ground water. 

Research for Hom Mali yields all but stopped over 20 years ago and now it struggles to compete against neighbouring country alternatives. 

In my case, 10 years ago we would make about 4-5,000 baht profit per rai. Today we run at several hundred baht loss/rai. But take that in context, we have zero capital investment to return on, our labour content is almost zero, and we save 10K per year by not having to buy rice wholesale. 

[ozzydom]

On 1/22/2020 at 6:20 PM, ireckonso said:

Vietnam seems to be doing quite well growing rice but they work hard and are open to new technology and foreign expertise. 

Read the other day that ,through variety development and growing techniques, Vietnam now harvests up to 2000kg per rai of Jasmine rice whereas Thailand has sat on its hands in this regard and is still sub 500 kg per rai.

 

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, ozzydom said:

Read the other day that ,through variety development and growing techniques, Vietnam now harvests up to 2000kg per rai of Jasmine rice whereas Thailand has sat on its hands in this regard and is still sub 500 kg per rai.

 

Same has happened in China over the last ten years. From 200 kg/rai to 2,000/rai. Here development of the Hom Mali 105 was undertaken some 30-40 years ago and achieved a huge advantage in quality plus allowed very poor soils to produce rice under dry land conditions and yields increased from 200 to over 500 kg/rai. Hopefully more research and development will benefit farmers by increasing yields within what is a very controlled cost environment. 

[Grumpy John]

4 years since we grew rice. Everything was done for us,  we supervised.   Well we did walk around one time and throw fertiliser into the paddies. 20 rai but 2 rai nOT so good.   Around 15.8 ton,  we made after expenses around 32k baht.  All the workers were family or friends but they still charged the going rate.  When we previously did more of the work we made 60 to 65k baht but the 2rai was good then and we got more tonnage.  Why in god's name would a farang want to become a rice farmer?  

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, Grumpy John said:

Why in god's name would a farang want to become a rice farmer?  

My prime reason for staying involved is simply to reduce the cost of living. 

[ireckonso]

Cheaper just to buy the rice here.

[kickstart]

On 1/22/2020 at 6:20 PM, ireckonso said:

Vietnam seems to be doing quite well growing rice but they work hard and are open to new technology and foreign expertise. 

What is it that Vietnam dose that Thailand does not ,it can not be all verites ,what I have seen from You Tube videos they just use ride on Kwie -Lec's. for they land work

 If  some one imported some Vietnam strains of rice ,would Thai yields double over night,or would it be like in my field of dairy cattle ,imported breeds in the form frozen semen ,comes to Thailand inseminated on Thai cows ,milk yield goes up only 15% not 50% like some think ,due to poor feed and management .

Or in Thailand's case, poor fertility of the land ,lack of organic matter ,years of mono culture of rice .

As IA said the central plains in a good year can  produce   3 crops a year and Issan one crop a year.so what new technology could Thailand use especially in Issan to up the yields,can not all to do with water ,I know that does play a big part ,what else. 

[farmerjo]

On 1/22/2020 at 7:05 PM, ireckonso said:

I have 160 acres back home I lease out because I cant make any money on it after the expense of everything to farm it i am working for free.

Welcome to Thailand.

 

[Scott]

Inflammatory, troll post reported and removed.   Continue with the nasty remarks and face a suspension.  

 

[ozzydom]

12 hours ago, kickstart said:

What is it that Vietnam dose that Thailand does not ,it can not be all verites ,what I have seen from You Tube videos they just use ride on Kwie -Lec's. for they land work

 If  some one imported some Vietnam strains of rice ,would Thai yields double over night,or would it be like in my field of dairy cattle ,imported breeds in the form frozen semen ,comes to Thailand inseminated on Thai cows ,milk yield goes up only 15% not 50% like some think ,due to poor feed and management .

Or in Thailand's case, poor fertility of the land ,lack of organic matter ,years of mono culture of rice .

As IA said the central plains in a good year can  produce   3 crops a year and Issan one crop a year.so what new technology could Thailand use especially in Issan to up the yields,can not all to do with water ,I know that does play a big part ,what else. 

soil improvement would go a long way to improving yield.

The usual practice around here is to just leave stubble on compacted paddy until burning it about February then waiting for first rain to soften the paddy enough to plough .

Turning over the stubble to fallow then discing one time if weeds emerge would be of benefit instead of parking the iron horse and hanging the hammock until May/June.

[IsaanAussie]

45 minutes ago, ozzydom said:

soil improvement would go a long way to improving yield.

The usual practice around here is to just leave stubble on compacted paddy until burning it about February then waiting for first rain to soften the paddy enough to plough .

Turning over the stubble to fallow then discing one time if weeds emerge would be of benefit instead of parking the iron horse and hanging the hammock until May/June.

These two posts sum up the position as I see it. I am trying to think up a way of achieving soil improvement and increasing yields without introducing too much extra cost. The period available is between Dec and May some 6 months. As Oz outlined incorporating the stubble. Bale the straw and use that for straw bale vegetables/mushrooms before incorporating back into the paddy. The provides part of the carbon SOM.

KS's question on what else can we use is a good one. EM and trichodermia innoculation is one way to help break down the straw and to combat against diseases like rice blast. Growing fodder crops or green manure in the paddy looking for nitrogen increase. 

 

12 hours ago, kickstart said:

13 hours ago, kickstart said:

what new technology could Thailand use especially in Issan to up the yields,can not all to do with water ,I know that does play a big part ,what else

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by IsaanAussie

[farmerjo]

1 hour ago, ozzydom said:

soil improvement would go a long way to improving yield.

The usual practice around here is to just leave stubble on compacted paddy until burning it about February then waiting for first rain to soften the paddy enough to plough .

Turning over the stubble to fallow then discing one time if weeds emerge would be of benefit instead of parking the iron horse and hanging the hammock until May/June.

Oz,i leave the stubble on top to use as a soil armour to retain subsoil moisture.For me pumping water is the biggest expense.

I have found burning just prior to planting also helps with disease so no pesticides are needed in crop normally saving another input cost.

While as you suggest fallowing is also good for disease and weed control you will require more water to get started and nitrogen on the next years crop.

What i see here in my area for low yields is late plantings with people retaining the same seed from the previous year(long season variety) rather than keeping the option open for when the season breaks and using a variety according to conditions.

 

[Grumpy John]

There's a rice farmer over in Nam Om who lives in our village that no-one......maybe no-one likes who rotavates his paddies after the rice harvester has been through.  I thought that is a smart way to do it.   There is absolutely no sense in waiting till its dry to burn the stubble. Interesting thing is there is energy in the fresh stubble which will enhance the soil.  My guess is he can use less fertiliser as well.  He always has a bonus rice crop as its right next to our #2 orchard and I see it every year. 

[farmerjo]

5 hours ago, Grumpy John said:

There's a rice farmer over in Nam Om who lives in our village that no-one......maybe no-one likes who rotavates his paddies after the rice harvester has been through.  I thought that is a smart way to do it.   There is absolutely no sense in waiting till its dry to burn the stubble. Interesting thing is there is energy in the fresh stubble which will enhance the soil.  My guess is he can use less fertiliser as well.  He always has a bonus rice crop as its right next to our #2 orchard and I see it every year. 

The most disliked job on my farm is unblocking rotovator blades full of heavy clay and straw.

Rototiller may work ok.

Might be 10% of goodness in the stubble.

The rest will require breaking down.

Edited January 27, 2020 by farmerjo

[EVENKEEL]

Never seen the rice stubble burned. Usually for the cattle to open graze, wife's mother will have a Kobota come in and disc under after harvest to give the soil a kick. But, I've been away from Isaan for past 2+ years.

[bwpage3]

Me and my wife have had a rice farm for over 10 years.

 

It feeds the extended family and never makes one baht.

 

In fact it seems we are always spending more money each planting season.

 

If you were the sell it, the millers have a racket and never pay what is close to a fair price.

 

If you don't sell to them, things can get really nasty

 

Lose, Lose situation all around.

[kickstart]

On 1/25/2020 at 11:40 AM, IsaanAussie said:

These two posts sum up the position as I see it. I am trying to think up a way of achieving soil improvement and increasing yields without introducing too much extra cost. The period available is between Dec and May some 6 months. As Oz outlined incorporating the stubble. Bale the straw and use that for straw bale vegetables/mushrooms before incorporating back into the paddy. The provides part of the carbon SOM.

KS's question on what else can we use is a good one. EM and trichodermia innoculation is one way to help break down the straw and to combat against diseases like rice blast. Growing fodder crops or green manure in the paddy looking for nitrogen increase. 

 

12 hours ago, kickstart said:

Photos I took today ,these fields have been mone cropped with rice for a good few years ,this is a crop of Mung Beans ,sown about the new year ,the odds of the owner getting a crop is slim ,no rain and the imminent  hot season on its way ,but I think he is not to bothered ,he will plough it all in as a green manure .

You can see the seed bed is not good ,he used either a Ford and a 7 disc plough and seeder or a little  Hino and 5 disc plus seeded straight in to the rice stubble ,either way the input was not that much ,a total of about 20 rie ,this is the second, ,third time he has done this ,over the past 4 years ,the land is not heavy ,and mung beans do not need a lot of water .

Might not be easy  to do on very  light Issan soil ,but even there if it is only a poor crop ,it will still provide some soil improvement .

[IsaanAussie]

A friend sowed mung beans and sunn hemp last year relying only on residual soil moisture. Similar result to this, green manure to plow in and a small crop of mung beans that fed the animals for a while. Best result was the N stored and SOM added which can't hurt the next rice crop.

What if you could water that plot twice with say an inch of water each time? Roughly that would need 500 cubic metres of water per hectare or 80 odd CM per rai. The cover/green manure crop would benefit as would the soil and preparation for the rice crop. 

A combination of ponds and ground water storage. I am looking at recharge wells at the moment with this in mind. I need to dig some holes and find out what the aquifer is made up of and at what depths.

Appreciate any input at the moment.

 

[morphem]

My data for the last 10 years (i check the bills and profits every year)

Our family use 20 rais for common rice farming.

 

- location is central thailand, near Nakhon Sawan

- Average total planting and harvesting (done by professionals) cost : 50k bahts

- Average total harvest sale price : 100k bahts

- Net income per harvest = 50k bahts

 

Note:

- On a rainy year, we can make 2 harvests, only one during a dry year.

- The rice land my wife bought 10 years ago is today worth 4 times the initial price

 

Hope this helps

 

 

[kickstart]

10 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

A friend sowed mung beans and sunn hemp last year relying only on residual soil moisture. Similar result to this, green manure to plow in and a small crop of mung beans that fed the animals for a while. Best result was the N stored and SOM added which can't hurt the next rice crop.

What if you could water that plot twice with say an inch of water each time? Roughly that would need 500 cubic metres of water per hectare or 80 odd CM per rai. The cover/green manure crop would benefit as would the soil and preparation for the rice crop. 

A combination of ponds and ground water storage. I am looking at recharge wells at the moment with this in mind. I need to dig some holes and find out what the aquifer is made up of and at what depths.

Appreciate any input at the moment.

 

 

It is the what  if bit, you have said it is the SOM that is the problem ,this guys mung beans,in my last post,  will help ,driving past again this evening his water supply is a ditch that comes from a local small river ,that is now almost dry ,he has some water ,but not enough ,if he had the water  would the cost of pumping water outweigh the gains made in SOM,for the following rice crop .

Members have been posting about trying to improve they Thai rice farming families lot,most say they will sink a bore hole ,thinking more water will solve the problem ,but if the soil is not fertile water alone will not help,and it would take 2-3 years ? of green manuring to get the land back to some sort fertile state.

Not an easy problem to solve .    

[khwaibah]

To add gasoline to the fire..

 

 

[Liverpudlian]

On 1/22/2020 at 5:36 PM, IsaanAussie said:

Your "in other words" conclusion is incorrect, I have a very good idea. Pity you cannot grasp the concept of family funds that applies here, perhaps in time. I freely admit to having thought I was being ripped off for years but now understand how it works. In bottom line terms I made a paper profit of over 10K baht and have next years seed and enough to eat for this year. 

At least you can put a deposit down on a motorbike and put the bycycle away as a stand by  been there seen it and gained the badge 

[farmerjo]

On 2/19/2020 at 9:18 PM, kickstart said:

Photos I took today ,these fields have been mone cropped with rice for a good few years ,this is a crop of Mung Beans ,sown about the new year ,the odds of the owner getting a crop is slim ,no rain and the imminent  hot season on its way ,but I think he is not to bothered ,he will plough it all in as a green manure .

You can see the seed bed is not good ,he used either a Ford and a 7 disc plough and seeder or a little  Hino and 5 disc plus seeded straight in to the rice stubble ,either way the input was not that much ,a total of about 20 rie ,this is the second, ,third time he has done this ,over the past 4 years ,the land is not heavy ,and mung beans do not need a lot of water .

Might not be easy  to do on very  light Issan soil ,but even there if it is only a poor crop ,it will still provide some soil improvement .

looking good KS.

Some research out of Aus now suggests you can sow some legumes and pulses deeper(up to 20 cm) to overcome moisture stress.

 

"Lentils and chickpeas, in particular, are different to a lot of cropping plants in that instead of sending up the coleoptiles, those stay underground, which means you can sow them pretty deeply," Dr Rich said.

[IsaanAussie]

10 hours ago, kickstart said:

 

It is the what  if bit, you have said it is the SOM that is the problem ,this guys mung beans,in my last post,  will help ,driving past again this evening his water supply is a ditch that comes from a local small river ,that is now almost dry ,he has some water ,but not enough ,if he had the water  would the cost of pumping water outweigh the gains made in SOM,for the following rice crop .

Members have been posting about trying to improve they Thai rice farming families lot,most say they will sink a bore hole ,thinking more water will solve the problem ,but if the soil is not fertile water alone will not help,and it would take 2-3 years ? of green manuring to get the land back to some sort fertile state.

Not an easy problem to solve .    

Definitely not easy and very complex issues. Here the soil is "stuffed" and has to be regenerated to see any improvement in yield. Even in the worst rainfall year, the total is more than enough to grow rice if managed. The problem is basically getting the rain when you want it. More often than not we have planted in July after waiting for enough rain. The result is we harvest later and get less for the crop. We get the heaviest rain late in the season when the rice doesn't need it.

Yes I could dig bores but the ground water level has dropped from 3 to 8 metres already. I don't believe bores are sustainable unless we increase the amount of rainfall that goes back into the aquifers.

Part of the drop in the water table here is due to increased drainage of what was natural wetlands. This increases the runoff rate and amount. Exactly the opposite of what is needed. The rain water needs to be slowed down. Because of the clay nature of our soil, as it becomes saturated, the infiltration rate slows down. 

So what is the answer apart from bigger ponds? Imagine you have a bore. Surround that with a concrete ring well down to the top of the aquifer system and fill that with gravel. In my case that is about 3 metres. Any surface water entering the well goes into the ground and infiltrates the sandy aquifier quickly right above the bore. Set the top edge of the recharge well level with the desired depth of water in the paddy to maintain that throughout the season with excess water going into the bore. 

[kickstart]

On 2/21/2020 at 9:30 AM, farmerjo said:

looking good KS.

Some research out of Aus now suggests you can sow some legumes and pulses deeper(up to 20 cm) to overcome moisture stress.

 

"Lentils and chickpeas, in particular, are different to a lot of cropping plants in that instead of sending up the coleoptiles, those stay underground, which means you can sow them pretty deeply," Dr Rich said.

Lentils and chickpeas are a big part of the Indian diet ,and grow well there , with a  similar climate should do well here in Thailand ,if you can find the seed .

Here in Thailand the nearest we have that could be sown deep would Black Beans ( the ones you get in your Khow Lum ,the sticky rice in a stick of bamboo),I think they are of the same genera as the beans we use to sow in the UK ,by spreading them on top of the land and ploughing them in .