until when was Isaan part of Laos?

[NanLaew]

Just now, emptypockets said:

Just now, NanLaew said:

Does it matter? She looks happy.

500 baht in the purse, course she happy.

Hah-loy?! You serious?

 

She saw him coming that's for sure.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

Does it matter? She looks happy.

I would not be happy if those teeth got anywhere near my family jewels.

[melvinmelvin]

7 hours ago, AjarnMartin said:

A small avalanche... as I was led to believe, ‘falang’ actually comes from the history of French Indo China when the French (falang set?) colonised the region of SE Asia?. Since then, all white visitors are so named? Maybe this is too simplistic but it sounds reasonable? Of course, Thailand doesn’t recognise ANY colonisation, for whatever reason (Japanese in WWII?).

 

maybe your (falang set?) is a bit off,

what I have learned; the origin is from farsi and refers to french people,

the word farangsi is still used in farsi today

[puchooay]

4 hours ago, Hank Gunn said:

So many people make the mistake of assuming that all of Isaan is a monolithic region linguistically and culturally, that after you have come up onto the Korat Plateau that everyone speaks "Lao Isaan" or some derivative dialect of such. If anyone cared to actually look at a map, they'd see that the lower section of Isaan is bordered by Cambodia to the south, with many locals (including the powerful Chidchob family of Newin Chidchob fame, who own the Buriram United football club and the Thunder Castle complex that includes the football stadium and MotoGP hosting racetrack) speaking a unique dialect of Khmer called Khmer Surin. The cities of Buriram and Surin, both capitals of their respective provinces, are each less than 100km from the Cambodian border.

The Chidchob family do not speak Khmer (note: it is not known as Khmer Surin but rather just "Khmer) as a native tongue. They are of Chinese decent and have learnt the language as choice rather than by ancestry. Mr Newin's wife and her family actually hail from Chiang Mai.

 

Hate to split hairs but Surin and Buriram are not cities.

[puchooay]

13 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

maybe your (falang set?) is a bit off,

what I have learned; the origin is from farsi and refers to french people,

the word farangsi is still used in farsi today

Agreed. The most likely origin is Farsi/Persian. However, I believe it was probably referring to the Franks during the crusades rather than the French.

[melvinmelvin]

3 minutes ago, puchooay said:

The Chidchob family do not speak Khmer (note: it is not known as Khmer Surin but rather just "Khmer) as a native tongue. They are of Chinese decent and have learnt the language as choice rather than by ancestry. Mr Newin's wife and her family actually hail from Chiang Mai.

 

Hate to split hairs but Surin and Buriram are not cities.

learning learning learning

Surin in Surin Province is not a city

BuriRam in BuriRam province is not a city

 

ok, but what are these two then? (amp muang - OK, but isn't that roughly what we call cities?)

 

[kensawadee]

I don't have any helpful knowledge. BUT I love Issan and am enjoying the topic very much.

Thank you OP and posters for your interesting input.

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, puchooay said:

Agreed. The most likely origin is Farsi/Persian. However, I believe it was probably referring to the Franks during the crusades rather than the French.

The story I usually tell is that it was a tribe of Iranian traders (possibly Farsi) whos tribal name was "Farangi". As they were the first "Westerners" they'd seen the locals assumed that all people from the West were called Farangi.

 

There are so many different versions, I doubt we'll ever know the truth.

[puchooay]

5 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

learning learning learning

Surin in Surin Province is not a city

BuriRam in BuriRam province is not a city

 

ok, but what are these two then? (amp muang - OK, but isn't that roughly what we call cities?)

 

I would say that the translation of "muang" would be "town". "Mahanakorn" is city. Bangkok is the only place that is recognised as a city. Bangkok is not part of any province.

[melvinmelvin]

In the past I did read a lot of Thai history, have forgotten most though.

 

(think I will colour print the maps posted by khunPer - very informative)

 

anyway,

what I do remember from my reading exercises;

 

originally isaan is not actually the name of an geographical area

bu rather the name of the people that inhabitates the area,

(in the distant past they seeped down from China and through today's Laos/VietNam)

 

also,

Isaan is not well defined geographically (that also goes for all areas in Siam),

kings/cheftains of the past (until fairly recent) were not particular about where does that tree belong?

Laos or Isaan? And that river and its fish belongs to? Kamen or Laos or Thai? Who knows?

The were more concerned about tax collection (like US-IRS, the revenuers),

who (which king) can burden that village/city with taxes and who can tax those etc.

 

thats is some of the reasons that still today the borders Laos/Kamen/Pama/Male is not totally well defined.

 

(beer time)

 

[melvinmelvin]

7 minutes ago, puchooay said:

I would say that the translation of "muang" would be "town". "Mahanakorn" is city. Bangkok is the only place that is recognised as a city. Bangkok is not part of any province.

 

well, ok, but not calling KK or HatYai or Udon Thani a city is stretching the use of English quite a bit, but never mind.

 

(so, for not being a or in a province Krung Thep is compensated by being referred to as a city as a consolation price)

 

[puchooay]

7 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

The story I usually tell is that it was a tribe of Iranian traders (possibly Farsi) whos tribal name was "Farangi". As they were the first "Westerners" they'd seen the locals assumed that all people from the West were called Farangi.

 

There are so many different versions, I doubt we'll ever know the truth.

I would doubt it referred to Iranians when the word refers to white skinned people. I believe Farangi was a Persian word referring to white westerners. Looking at languages around the region of Asia and especially south east asia, many of the languages have a similar word to refer to westerners. I would think that Farangi was the base word and changed according to pronunciation in other countries. The first westerners to visit Thailand in more modern times are generally regarded as Portugese. They are the ones that introduced the guava to Thailand. Hence we have "khon farang", "dton farang" and "pon farang".

[tifino]

12 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

The story I usually tell is that it was a tribe of Iranian traders (possibly Farsi) whos tribal name was "Farangi". As they were the first "Westerners" they'd seen the locals assumed that all people from the West were called Farangi.

 

There are so many different versions, I doubt we'll ever know the truth.

dejavu; when the people alighted the plane, and the tribals on the ground heard the 'Gods' give their inaugural greeting; declaring "we're the Fookarewe" 

 

[Moonlover]

8 hours ago, mfd101 said:

And not to mention the bottom 1/3 which is mostly Khmer, with the borders/boundaries moving back & forth MANY times over the last 1000 years. And then there's the Vietnamese, numerous in Cambodia (not for no reason) ...

And just to make the picture even more vague, Phra That Phu Pek is an ancient Kymer temple ruin in Sakon Nakhon.

[Hank Gunn]

47 minutes ago, puchooay said:

The Chidchob family do not speak Khmer (note: it is not known as Khmer Surin but rather just "Khmer) as a native tongue. They are of Chinese decent and have learnt the language as choice rather than by ancestry. Mr Newin's wife and her family actually hail from Chiang Mai.

 

Hate to split hairs but Surin and Buriram are not cities.

I can only go on what I read on Wikipedia, as regards the Chidchob family background (and of course that could be wrong) but it's what I read. (I'd be curious to know your sources regarding the family and how you know what languages they speak.)

 

With regards to the term "Khmer Surin" it is indeed a dialect of Khmer, distinct from Khmer (the term used to describe the people and language of Cambodia). It is what differentiates it from "regular" Khmer, spoken in the majority of Cambodia outside of that country's northwest. (My wife and her family all speak it and she has told me that she does not fully understand Khmer, only able to pick out a few words). The term is also used by linguists to describe this dialect but is also interchanged with Northern Khmer, Khmer Lue, Thai Khmer, and Upper Khmer.

 

With regards to the names of the towns of Surin and Buriram, yes I referred to them as cities and while they are really just towns (pop. of Buriram is less than 35k I believe) in relative terms to the rest of the provinces, they are cities. Also, where I come from in the US, Silicon Valley, most of the towns (e.g. Palo Alto, Mt. View) all with a population of around 65k are still referred to as cities. 

[puchooay]

14 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

well, ok, but not calling KK or HatYai or Udon Thani a city is stretching the use of English quite a bit, but never mind.

 

(so, for not being a or in a province Krung Thep is compensated by being referred to as a city as a consolation price)

 

Agreed. Obviously the places that you listed were much smaller years ago. In the present time the word "town" is not sufficient to describe places of those sizes.

[melvinmelvin]

44 minutes ago, puchooay said:

Agreed. The most likely origin is Farsi/Persian. However, I believe it was probably referring to the Franks during the crusades rather than the French.

yes, Franks and crusads come to mind

 

[DannyCarlton]

2 minutes ago, Hank Gunn said:

I can only go on what I read on Wikipedia, as regards the Chidchob family background (and of course that could be wrong) but it's what I read. (I'd be curious to know your sources regarding the family and how you know what languages they speak.)

You are correct that the Chidchob family are Thai Chin (aren't all Thai elite families?)

[puchooay]

24 minutes ago, Hank Gunn said:

I can only go on what I read on Wikipedia, as regards the Chidchob family background (and of course that could be wrong) but it's what I read. (I'd be curious to know your sources regarding the family and how you know what languages they speak.)

 

With regards to the term "Khmer Surin" it is indeed a dialect of Khmer, distinct from Khmer (the term used to describe the people and language of Cambodia). It is what differentiates it from "regular" Khmer, spoken in the majority of Cambodia outside of that country's northwest. (My wife and her family all speak it and she has told me that she does not fully understand Khmer, only able to pick out a few words). The term is also used by linguists to describe this dialect but is also interchanged with Northern Khmer, Khmer Lue, Thai Khmer, and Upper Khmer.

 

With regards to the names of the towns of Surin and Buriram, I did not refer to them as cities (pop. of Buriram is less than 35k I believe) but I did refer to them as their respective provincial capitals. As for referring to them as such, that is how my wife's family and all the locals refer to these towns. If we are heading back to Buriram town, where we live, people will ask "Bai Buriram mai?" (i.e. You go to Buriram?). The same with going into Surin town.

I am not questioning the existance of the dialect. Just that it should not be referred to as "Surin Khmer". Simply "Khmer" to the people who speak it in Surin, Buriram, Sissaket and SaKeaw.

 

With regards to the Chidchob family, I have met them and taught their children, nieces and nephews.

 

Agreed that Buriram is used when referring to the town. Strangely it is the only place, "muang" being the correct term, that does not have a specific and distinctive name, such as Nang Rong or Prakhonchai (for example). HAving said that the term "Muang Buriram" can be heard. Much the same format as in every province.

[Hank Gunn]

21 minutes ago, puchooay said:

I am not questioning the existance of the dialect. Just that it should not be referred to as "Surin Khmer". Simply "Khmer" to the people who speak it in Surin, Buriram, Sissaket and SaKeaw.

 

With regards to the Chidchob family, I have met them and taught their children, nieces and nephews.

 

Agreed that Buriram is used when referring to the town. Strangely it is the only place, "muang" being the correct term, that does not have a specific and distinctive name, such as Nang Rong or Prakhonchai (for example).

I think regarding the Khmer Surin dialect, I never questioned your acknowledgement of it. I just think you're being a bit pedantic in saying "it should not be referred to as 'Khmer Surin'". Yes, I know the locals refer to this dialect as simply "Khmer" but in referring to it to non-speakers on a forum such as this, I've used the term that is used by other non-speakers (we are after all on an English language forum). It is after all distinct from the Khmer spoken in Phnom Phen and most of Cambodia.

 

And as I said with regards to the Chidchob family, my source was Wikipedia, which I'm very skeptical of, fine for the definition of a simple mathematical formula but often open to question with regards to biographical info. So I'm not surprised at that. 

 

With all that being said, are you a local here in Buriram town? (I'm relatively new here, having just arrived a couple of yrs. ago.)

[Hank Gunn]

29 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

You are correct that the Chidchob family are Thai Chin (aren't all Thai elite families?)

Actually, I didn't make that claim. It was user puchooay that corrected my original claim that the Chidchob family was of local Khmer descent.

[puchooay]

12 minutes ago, Hank Gunn said:

arding the Khmer Surin dialect, I never questioned your acknowledgement of it. I just think you're being a bit pedantic in saying "it should not be referred to as 'Khmer Surin'".

Not being pedantic. I have never heard anyone refer to the language as Khmer Surin or Surin Khmer. Anytime I have spoken it with locals they have only ever said " Oh, you speak Khmer" (in Khmer of course). My wife speak Khmer. I'm sure if I asked her she would prefer it to be called Buriram Khmer. 555

 

I have lived in Buriram for about 21 years, although I am currently in UK.

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, puchooay said:

Not being pedantic. I have never heard anyone refer to the language as Khmer Surin or Surin Khmer. Anytime I have spoken it with locals they have only ever said " Oh, you speak Khmer" (in Khmer of course). My wife speak Khmer. I'm sure if I asked her she would prefer it to be called Buriram Khmer. 555

Yep, pronounced Khmen. Only spoken in a couple of Cambodian provinces close to the Thai border. Completely different to Khmer spoken in Phnom Penh. i've tried a couple of very basic Khmer phrases on girls from Surin and they look at me as if I was from Mars.

[otherstuff1957]

I skipped a couple of pages, so this point may have been made before. 

 

Until the early part of the 20th century, communication and transportation between Bangkok and various parts of Thailand could take weeks.  This meant that local rulers had much more autonomy than regional governments have now. 

 

The Kingdom of Siam was not really a country in the way that we think of a country now, it was more of a collection of fiefs where the local ruler sword personal fealty to the King of Siam and paid a yearly tribute.  This was especially true of the parts of Cambodia, Laos and Malaysia that the maps show as being part of Thailand.

 

It wasn't until King Chula's reign that Siam became a modern country with an official language, school system, etc...

 

[Hank Gunn]

40 minutes ago, puchooay said:

Not being pedantic. I have never heard anyone refer to the language as Khmer Surin or Surin Khmer. Anytime I have spoken it with locals they have only ever said " Oh, you speak Khmer" (in Khmer of course). My wife speak Khmer. I'm sure if I asked her she would prefer it to be called Buriram Khmer. 555

 

I have lived in Buriram for about 21 years, although I am currently in UK.

Yeah, no worries. I'm probably being a bit pedantic in using the "Khmer Surin" term but that is what the language/dialect is known as. Now the locals, like my wife, her family and everyone in her village refer to it simply as Khmer, just as your wife does. However, whenever I speak to other non-Thais, including those men who I know that are married to Thais from other regions, I use that term because it distinguishes it from the main Khmer language spoken in the majority of Cambodia. (Otherwise, many of those folks, including my own family, would probably think my wife could fly into Siem Reap or Phnom Phen and start conversing with the locals there.)

 

Also, getting back to the original topic, my first post stated that most people think that everyone in Isaan/the Korat Plateau speaks Lao or some derivative thereof. By specifically using the term Khmer Surin to designate the first language of my wife and many people here in southern Isaan, I was trying to inform others on this topic. If I had referred to this language as just Khmer, I think many people would have thought that the people here spoke the same language as that spoken in the majority of Cambodia (which is not correct) rather than the distinct dialect that it actually is.

[asanee]

Exactly-what otherstuff states is how it was. Do not think in strict borders etc-not even EURope at that time had it. It could also very well be possible for a certain area that the ruler there paid tribute (just to make sure) to both the adjacent kingdoms, as was also sometimes the case in Europe in the middle ages. Who paid the money to whom was about the only criterium used to determine who the ruler was thought of to be. Plus there was (and partly still is) endless nothing. Thats why also it was no use of making out exact borders or this is my ricefield or whatever-you just moved on a few rai if you had none or did not like it. Thats still the source of eternal strife about those chanotes for the land ownership.

It also seems likely that the Khmer (and Cham) were slowly but persistently pushed further away to the south what is now Cambodia by groups of people originally from China, where over population (relative for the time) was more rampant-and drought and hunger also struck far more. These gradually also mixed and became the Lao of the 1.000.000 elefants (Lan xiang or lan chang)-probably even more elefants as people. 

Thanee is supposed to be city, but in many language other as this /en/ there is no real distinction between city and town. I myself never could believe how those USAers could call a village of 4/5000 people a town(ship). A real city in EUR had special rights and walls around it in the middle ages with gates that were closed at dusk to open by dawn. TH only has ever had very, very few of that-mostly only when and where the king of the time lived, kind of extended castle.

[Alex2554]

1 hour ago, puchooay said:

Not being pedantic. I have never heard anyone refer to the language as Khmer Surin or Surin Khmer. Anytime I have spoken it with locals they have only ever said " Oh, you speak Khmer" (in Khmer of course). My wife speak Khmer. I'm sure if I asked her she would prefer it to be called Buriram Khmer. 555

 

I have lived in Buriram for about 21 years, although I am currently in UK.

How did you learn the language?

[puchooay]

15 hours ago, Alex2554 said:

How did you learn the language?

Living in a Khmer speaking village. Hearing the language everyday. Not difficult to pick up. I am not by any means fluent but can have a little chat.

[khunPer]

On 2/29/2020 at 12:48 PM, melvinmelvin said:

In the past I did read a lot of Thai history, have forgotten most though.

 

(think I will colour print the maps posted by khunPer - very informative)

 

anyway,

what I do remember from my reading exercises;

 

originally isaan is not actually the name of an geographical area

bu rather the name of the people that inhabitates the area,

(in the distant past they seeped down from China and through today's Laos/VietNam)

 

also,

Isaan is not well defined geographically (that also goes for all areas in Siam),

kings/cheftains of the past (until fairly recent) were not particular about where does that tree belong?

Laos or Isaan? And that river and its fish belongs to? Kamen or Laos or Thai? Who knows?

The were more concerned about tax collection (like US-IRS, the revenuers),

who (which king) can burden that village/city with taxes and who can tax those etc.

 

thats is some of the reasons that still today the borders Laos/Kamen/Pama/Male is not totally well defined.

 

(beer time)

Just checked up on English Wikipedia – faster than re-reading lots of pages in a book for quotes – here is what Wikipedia says about the name Isaan/Isan, a part of the "Korat Plateau"; hmm. I used to say "Isaan Plateau", but seems like I should change that...

 

Quote

The national government claimed that the name "Isan" was derived from Sanskrit Īśāna, a name of Shiva they claimed referred to his rule of the northeast (Sanskrit īśānya). This interpretation was intended to reinforce Isan's identity as the northeast of Thailand, rather than as part of the Lao kingdom which was recently created by the French colonial discourse, as "race was then an important ideological tool for French colonialists in the attempt to seize the 'Laotian' and 'Cambodian' portions of Siam."

 

–And about history and colonization...

Quote

Isan has a number of important Bronze Age sites, with prehistoric art in the form of cliff paintings, artifacts and early evidence of rice cultivation. Iron and bronze tools such as those found at Ban Chiang may predate similar tools from Mesopotamia.

The region later came under the influence of the Dvaravati culture, followed by the Khmer Empire. The latter built dozens of prasats (sanctuaries) throughout Isan. The most significant are at Phimai Historical Park and Phanom Rung Historical Park. Preah Vihear Temple was also considered to be in Isan, until the International Court of Justice in 1962 ruled that it belonged to Cambodia.

 

After the Khmer Empire began to decline in the 13th century, Isan was dominated by the Lao kingdom of Lan Xang, which had been established by Fa Ngum. Due to a scarcity of information from the periods known as the dark ages of Cambodia, the plateau seems to have been largely depopulated. There were few if any lines of demarcation, for prior to the 19th century introduction of modern mapping, the region fell under what 20th century scholars called the "mandala system". Accordingly, in 1718 the first Lao mueang in the Chi River valley — and indeed anywhere in the interior of the Khorat Plateau — was founded at Suwannaphum District (in present-day Roi Et Province) by an official in the service of King Nokasad of the Kingdom of Champasak.

 

The region was increasingly settled by both Lao and Thai emigrants. Thailand held sway from the 17th century, and carried out forced population transfers from the more populous left (east) bank of the Mekong to the right bank in the 18th and 19th centuries. This became more severe following the Lao rebellion (1826–1828) for complete independence of 1826–9. In the wake the Franco-Siamese War of 1893, the resulting treaty with France and the Anglo-Siamese Treaty of 1909 made the plateau a border region between Thailand and the Laos of French Indochina.

 

In the mid-20th century, the state-supported assimilation policy called Thaification promoted the ethnic integration of Isan into the modern conception of Thai nationality and de-emphasized the use of ethnic markers, for ethnic Laos and Khmers, as it was deemed uncivilized and to prevent ethnic discrimination among the Thai people.

Here mentioned about the forced population transfers in 18th and 19th centuries, so it began before Mongkut (Rama IV).

 

–And about language...

Quote

Before the central government introduced the Thai alphabet and language in regional schools, the people of Isan wrote in the Lao alphabet, a very similar script that Thai adopted. Most people speak Isan, a variety of Lao, as their first language. A significant minority in the south also speak Northern Khmer.

 

[puchooay]

9 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Just checked up on English Wikipedia – faster than re-reading lots of pages in a book for quotes – here is what Wikipedia says about the name Isaan/Isan, a part of the "Korat Plateau"; hmm. I used to say "Isaan Plateau", but seems like I should change that...

 

 

–And about history and colonization...

Here mentioned about the forced population transfers in 18th and 19th centuries, so it began before Mongkut (Rama IV).

 

–And about language...

 

As someone already mentioned, Wikipedia is not the best source of information for many subjects. Many pages will contain opinions or information that someone has learned 2nd, 3rd or even 4th+ hand. This can lead to misinterpretation and becomes a bit like Chinese whispers.

 

The quoted text above is, sadly, one of those instances.