lithium now cheaper then lead-acid?

[sirquest007]

Hi all,

I need to share this with you guys (and girls)
Last year I replaced my inverter with one from EASUN (NOT !! recommend)
The device that was delivered turned out to be defective and charged my 48v system with 78v.
By by my new 16 x 200Ah lead-acid... + 125.000 thb go POEF.. now 1000kg old lead.

The inverter has been returned to China and I have received new inverter, 3 x 3.2kw Revo II (I can highly recommend) (Via Alibaba)

Now the MPPT inverters are good, I need to replace the 16 x 200ah, who, while they act like fully charged, wont last 1/2 night.. (empty, some even down to 8.5v)
Yes, the lead acid are really busted, dead.

(I will try to bring them back to life with de-sulphate pulsing. that takes about 8 weeks for 200ah. If that still won't work, the Epson salt trick)

Back to Topic.
I ordered (and received) 32 x 152Ah lifepo4 cells from Haomi Electrionic Trading 
32 * 3.2V 152Ah LiFePO4 lithium batteries for $1602,- incl. DDP to Isaan
DDP = all costs paid, including tax, and delivered at my doorstep!)

Now I life remote location, we need to live off-grid as the closest electrical connection is 8km from our home.
For people more close to BKK this price even can be lower.

Yes, LiFePo4 is little more complicated then lead-acid.
It does need BMS (Battery management system)
Thrust me, it is really simple to install. (link to famous youtuber Will Prowse, he's good!)

Anyway..
They have a few special offers:
120Ah batteries for $ 37.50
152Ah batteries for $ 43,-
280Ah batteries for $ 79.80

It is special offer, so please mention my name (Frank, from ThaiVisa)

Lifepo4 is more efficient 95% while lead-acid have 70% 
Every KW you put in there, with lead-acid 30% is lost as heat

Lifepo4 have no memort and can be used almost 100%. 
Lead acid need to stay full at-least 40% better 60% to have many cycles.
With lifepo4 you have more cycles (2000 tov lead 500), and you can use like 95% !!

5kw system need 600Ah on 24 volt to really deliver the 5KW.
that is 6 x 12v 200AH. = 50.000thb or $ 1600
lifepo4 need 8 x 280ah cells = 20.100thb or $640 (+ $300 transport) = $940,-
BMS is $120,-
total price: 1060,- (for + 6.5KW)

You probably need less time to make the installation as the heavy 70kg lead-acid would take.


This seller offers OK pricing, but you need to educate yourself by informing pricing from different transport companies as well.
A few transport companies I use for quotations: JWLogistics, QTCY (often cheapest), Bohang logistics
 

General information: How to order Chinese Batteries

For BMS, I ordered the  "A/2A Active Balance Battery Protection Board Smart BMS" 
this seller is know company for Chargery and Daly BMS, and now have developed this new type!

(on aliexpress they are called "IC GOGOGO Store" on Alibaba E&J Technology Group)

 

It is available for shipment!! 

It ain't the cheapest option, price start at $95

 

Mine, the 24S 1A 300A, is $119.28

 

I'll update you when I have received and tested.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sirquest007]

I found new seller for the 152Ah, the old seller already is out of stock.
Xuba: (bus-bars + screws are standard included)
3.2v 152Ah LiFePo4 Battery for $ 43.00 

[OneMoreFarang]

I like to read about your long term experience with Lithium batteries. I know from RC that they are sensitive in many ways. Anybody who uses them must be careful with charging (never above x V, limit A), carful with using them (never below y volt, limit A), storage, physical protection, no water, and and and.

And if something goes wrong they guarantee fireworks.

What can go wrong with lead-acid? Almost nothing. Worst case they fail.

What can go wrong with Lithium. Almost anything...

 

 

[sirquest007]

I have to disagree!!  ???????? ????   A lot

Apples with apples please!!!

lead acid. batteries can explode. And battery acid, that you don't want on your skin!
during charging they produce explosive gasses. the building can explode
put an iron bar on both poles.... yes, same fireworks!!

12v lead acid discharge below 10.5 volt... Dead
3.2v lifepo4 discharge below 2.5 volt .... dead (or for 4 cells that is 10v)

12 volt lead acid over charge 16.5 volt... first boiling with loads of explosive gass, longer... kaboem. (if lucky, only dead)
3.2v lifepo4 4.2v over charge (or by 4 16.8) heat-up, expand, special ventilation hole pops open, charge is automatically disconnected, no more charge. no more heat, no explosion, no dangerous gasses.

in a car fire??
A tesla full of lead acid and put on fire or
A tesla with same amount of kw/h in lifepo4 on fire??
I don't know.

A car with tank full of petrol / diesel / LPG/CNG say Kaboom on fire
probably a tesla will do the same
we talk about stored potential power that is released in short time.

then it does not matter if it is lifepo4, gasoline, diesel, kerosene, nuclear..

I wonder if you do the same test as the YouTube video on butagas tank with same KW/h potential what will happen ????

Compare apples with apples please!!

 

[sirquest007]

Yes, there are less safe li-ion cells.

we are talking about lifepo4
You can see the safety cap between the 2 poles.


 

[sirquest007]

 

[sirquest007]

11 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I like to read about your long term experience with Lithium batteries. I know from RC that they are sensitive in many ways. Anybody who uses them must be careful with charging

Yes, I agree that anyone uses any battery should be careful when charging, and use the correct charger intended for this use.
as long as the charger is not broken, there is nothing to worry about.

what people seem to forget is the potential power.
in Holland we used to have something like spartamet, a bicycle with small petrol engine, small tank of 3.5L
the distance was about the same as modern electric bike. and... with fire, the 3.5l gasoline give nice flames...

All people like cheaper, cheapest, and don't worry about the safety.
yes, when you make a welding connection wrong in a battery pack, it will give problems. Especially build for high discharge
how often do you see a bike in flames?
or a scooter? And probably for scooter most have petrol engine...
as most scooters use lifepo4.
(solar system is low discharge. an ebike can give all power in 1 hour or 30 minutes. solar takes all night ????  )

long time experience..
i'm sure you already have!!
your electric shaving machine? 
your phone?
laptop?
list goes on and on and on.

phone uses prismatic cells, like lifepo4.
most laptops use the 18650

how many laptops do you know to explode?
 

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, sirquest007 said:

long time experience..
i'm sure you already have!!
your electric shaving machine? 
your phone?
laptop?
list goes on and on and on.

phone uses prismatic cells, like lifepo4.
most laptops use the 18650

how many laptops do you know to explode?

The author talks about "my new 16 x 200Ah"

That is 3,200Ah = 3.2Ah = a lot of power.

There is a huge difference if a little battery goes boom or a big battery.

And phones, etc. are full of electronic to control that battery.

The author does not mention how much effort he put into charging, discharging, water protection, etc.

Personally I would be VERY CAREFUL with that amount of LiPo power.

[sirquest007]

please keep it personal, Frank or "sirquest007" is my name ???? 
not "The author"

yes, I purchased 16x 12v@200ah lead acid last year. One year old is new in my book.
sadly due malfunction they got charged at 78v.
they are dead now.

As replacement I have 32x 3.2v@152ah lifepo4
a battery management system that is always (should be) used with lifepo4 (and li-ion) 
This is the electronic that controls the battery.

I write about my solar setup, just read my previous posts.
I have Revo II MPPT inverter and 27x 330w solar.
Water protection?
Inside my home, it doesn't rain there ????
We are not talking about e bike or outside product, but solar power storage.
For lead acid and lifepo4 it is the same, as long as the poles stay dry, no problem.
Submerse them, the stored power is released. And yes, Lifepo4 can release stored power faster then lead.
if you are afraid of it, don't use it. Your fear does not make it dangerous! Ignorance behaviour does.

Please "onemorefarang", read before you shout.
OK, it's clear you are afraid of something you don't know anything about, and like to shout and show drastic video.
almost like you have nothing better to do then shout, without knowledge.
I know there are a few forum members who (sadly) pollute the forum this way.
Those people are probably lonely, try to get attention how ever they can. (negative attention is also attention)
 

Me, I like to show my fellow forum members what is possible.
There is more in the world then DoHome!
Unless you have more money then you can spend in a life time, you need to be careful how you spend.
One way is buying at the source.
(yes, the market is cheaper then 7-11 !!!, at the farmer even less!) (but then you need to leave BKK central)

If you are afraid for DIY, don't do it!!
But don't let your lack of skills and knowledge stop you, to try to freak out other readers. ????
It's entertaining! 

And yes, 16x200Ah at 12v was 38kw/h, if lead acid would be fully usable.
realistic about 15-20kw./h
For Off-grid 20kw/h is a normal buffer.
It gives power for about 4 or 5 rainy days without Sun
Not all have the luxury to be grid connected!!

"16 x 200Ah"

That is 3,200Ah = 3200Ah = not like your powerbank 3.200ma! = 3.2A
(powerbank.. you know, the one you use to charge your phone when there is no power socket??)

Oh... yeah, those are the scary 18650 cells from your youtube video.. like the ones in yout laptop, shaver, and ebike!

Ampere alone won't tell much, it's the wattage that counts!
Ohms law. 
Back to high school ????
 

 

 

 

[Susco]

9 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I like to read about your long term experience with Lithium batteries. I know from RC that they are sensitive in many ways. Anybody who uses them must be careful with charging (never above x V, limit A), carful with using them (never below y volt, limit A), storage, physical protection, no water, and and and.

And if something goes wrong they guarantee fireworks.

LifePo4 batteries is not a Li-on battery.

 

LifePo4 batteries can be discharged to virtually zero, and will also give full power until they are completely empty, unlike Li-on batteries.

 

They also hold their power. I have an airsoft gun which has a lifePo4 battery, and I can just put it down for 1 year, and pick it up and start using it.

 

Try that with a Li-ion or NiCad battery.

 

I also believe that LifePo4 batteries can be send by air, due to the low risk of explosion, at least that is how my battery was sent from HK.

[fruitman]

1 hour ago, Susco said:

LifePo4 batteries can be discharged to virtually zero, and will also give full power until they are completely empty, unlike Li-on batteries.

 

That's wrong info, lifepo4 should never get discharged totally, the minimum you should discharge them to is 2.5V a piece...

[Susco]

19 minutes ago, fruitman said:

That's wrong info, lifepo4 should never get discharged totally, the minimum you should discharge them to is 2.5V a piece...

 

https://www.solacity.com/how-to-keep-lifepo4-lithium-ion-batteries-happy/

Discharging an LFP Battery

LiFePO4 Discharge Voltage vs. SOC

Most of the time during discharge, the battery Voltage will be right around 13.2 Volt. It varies by just 0.2 Volt all the way from 99% to 30% SOC. Not long ago it was a Very Bad Idea™ to go below 20% SOC for a LiFePO4 battery. That has changed, and the current crop of LFP batteries will quite merrily discharge all the way down to 0% for many cycles.

 

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/10779/official-depth-of-discharge-recommendations-for-li.html

 

Battleborn says this: "Most lead acid batteries experience significantly reduced cycle life if they are discharged more than 50%, which can result in less than 300 total cycles. Conversely LIFEPO4 (lithium iron phosphate) batteries can be continually discharged to 100% DOD and there is no long term effect. You can expect to get 3000 cycles or more at this depth of discharge. "

[OneMoreFarang]

11 hours ago, Susco said:

LifePo4 batteries is not a Li-on battery.

 

LifePo4 batteries can be discharged to virtually zero, and will also give full power until they are completely empty, unlike Li-on batteries.

 

They also hold their power. I have an airsoft gun which has a lifePo4 battery, and I can just put it down for 1 year, and pick it up and start using it.

 

Try that with a Li-ion or NiCad battery.

 

I also believe that LifePo4 batteries can be send by air, due to the low risk of explosion, at least that is how my battery was sent from HK.

Thanks

It seems there are many Lithium batteries with (very) different behavior. I am used to LiPo and LiFe, and especially the LiPo are dangerous.

 

I just checked on Wikipedia:

Safety

One important advantage over other lithium-ion chemistries is thermal and chemical stability, which improves battery safety. LiFePO₄ is an intrinsically safer cathode material than LiCoO₂ and manganese spinel, through omission of the cobalt, with its negative temperature coefficient of resistance that can encourage thermal runaway.

[blackcab]

Moved to the Electrical Forum.