Third World In Whose Eyes?

[Robski]

Reason for edit; lack of interest.

Edited April 9, 2007 by Robski

[canuckamuck]

Material things are vastly over rated. Poverty is on those who are poor in spirit.

Canuckamuck your posts are normally interesting and intelligent, but you have really shown your true colours with this thread.

You've stated your own position and then asked other posters to state their opinions, that they do not agree with your view does not make them 'hypocrites' for living in or visiting Thailand. The criticism is aimed at you, not at Thailand.

A very interesting quote above from someone who claims to come from a poor background, claims to know enough about poverty to know the difference between the poverty trap and freedom of choice and who is obviously able to enjoy the kind of material comforts that 90% of Thais only dream of.

I am not really sure I get what you are saying here, but I will admit I am fairly far out in my defensive stance. But I think you have me a bit confused with some other posts. I never disputed anyone’s observation that here are some serious problems here. I guess I am a bit caught off guard by having guys like Cdnvic, whose last Thread was a Thailand love offering, is down in the trenches with the negatoids.

I do see there were good points and a fairly accurate placement of Thailand in economic terms, I learned a bunch there, but I remain that there are some out here who couldn’t say a nice thing about this place if there life was on the line.

Poverty is on the poor of spirit, poverty is a mentality. I have seen fly-covered children dying in the sun, racked by malnutrition, no energy to move to the shade. This place is better than that. Thailand is capable of feeding it's young.

I never claimed to come from a poor background, my wife did. I had a good life and built a good career eventually.

[PeaceBlondie]

I ran out to swim and do some errands (managing to totally avoid Sonkran pre-festivities, hoorah!), and am happy to see that y'all have solved the problems.

Starting with the semantic problem, I'm glad to see you've decided that 'third world' ain't what it used to be, and is now a term to describe developing nations, that are still trying to develop. Speaking of semantics, developing is a present tense, progressive verb or participle, and it's active. That means that the thing being described is still in the process of developing, perhaps by its own actions. Developed however, is a past, perfect, passive participle, meaning that the thing has already been developed, perhaps not by its own actions.

Thailand is not over yet until the fat lady sings, and she hasn't even cleared her throat, yet. I hope she does not develop quite like my own country has, because the USA isn't very sanook any more. Only on Spring Break do children frolic in the water. Only in North America, Europe, and Australiasia, plus other places, do people stare endlessly at idiotic television shows.

My first speech to Thai educators had as its theme, "Don't let Thai schools become like American high schools!"

[kmart]

Reason for edit; lack of interest.

Agree entirely.

[ThaiGoon]

I remain that there are some out here who couldn’t say a nice thing about this place if there life was on the line.

So true.

[Robski]

Poverty is on the poor of spirit, poverty is a mentality.

That's just plain wrong, poverty is a state of being not a state of mind. Your condecension continues.

Comparing the poverty of Thailand with the poverty of Bangladesh, or the other half dozen poor countries does not make the situation of poor Thais any less acceptable to them when there is such obvious wealth in Thailand. There are people living in poverty in the UK and USA and I guess they are better off than the poor of Isaan, but it doesn't make it any more acceptable for them.

You said about your wife returning to the family straw hut and saying how well off they were compared to Pakistan,

but you and your wife don't live in a straw hut do you? And then you try and tell me material things are overated.

Poverty is a mentality!? I think you will find it is a reality for many and a product of social engineering.

[Maigo6]

I remain that there are some out here who couldn’t say a nice thing about this place if there life was on the line.

So true.

Then again, have you seen how some Farangs live, being stuck in some crappy little Fan room in a crummy little Soi in Pattaya is hardly likely to promote good feelings about ones situation in life.

Being in a good financial position in Thailand does wonders to the perception of life in Thailand, even though it maybe a totally selfish viewpoint.

[cdnvic]

I guess I am a bit caught off guard by having guys like Cdnvic, whose last Thread was a Thailand love offering, is down in the trenches with the negatoids.

It's called keeping an open mind rather than choosing a side. There's things I love about Thailand and things that drive me nuts. I try to enjoy the former, fix what I can of the latter, and come to terms with what remains.

It's not a matter of being pro-thailand, or negatoid, whatever that means. It's having an honest opinion.

Edited April 9, 2007 by cdnvic

[ThaiGoon]

Then again, have you seen how some Farangs live, being stuck in some crappy little Fan room in a crummy little Soi in Pattaya is hardly likely to promote good feelings about ones situation in life.

I can see that. But I don't think it's fair for them to be overly cynical of Thailand just because they have a crappy life. They themselves are mostly responsible for their own plight. Even poor people in Thailand can better their lives through hard work and optimism. Majority of Chinese immigrants were hardly well off people when they started off their lives here. I'm sure they didn't become successful later on by being cynical and miserable.

[Robski]

Maigo strikes again,

The thing about these types of discussions is that even though it is about relative poverty, it does give those that are considerably better off than the rest of us the chance to remind us just how well insulated they are from lifes bothersome little details.

Thanks for that. Now go and roll around in some cash. ZzZzZzZz

Edited April 9, 2007 by Robski

[ColPyat]

Before '97 i could feed me and the wife for 100 Baht a day very well, now that doesn't even cover one meal for the two of us.

Huh?

Anyway, Canuckamuck's been presenting a pretty fair and balanced view of Thailand. Yet he's now under attack by those who "wish Thailand well" because his obvious crime is he chose to talk about some positive Things about Thailand. A lot of nice people on here I must say.

What means 'Huh'?

Very simple - ten years ago for rice, veggies and meat we budgeted about 100 Baht a day, and now the same 100 Baht does not even pay for one meal for the two of us.

[ThaiGoon]

A lot has been said about poverty in Thailand, but I don't see anyone who's bemoaning about it bothered to look at the data from the UN which clearly shows that the number of Thai people who live under poverty line has been steadily declining since 1988.

[canuckamuck]

Poverty is on the poor of spirit, poverty is a mentality.

That's just plain wrong, poverty is a state of being not a state of mind. Your condecension continues.

Poverty is on the poor of spirit. Poverty is a mentality. When a person spirit is broken, then the real effect of poverty set in. Poverty is a creeping death. Being poor is not necessarily the same thing. Thais have opportunities that some will take and improve their situation, how is that condescending?

Do you somehow imagine I blame the poor for being poor? That’s wrong. I am saying they have it better than some. I think I would rather be homeless here than back in Canada. But that doesn’t mean I have no sympathy.

I have spent much time in huts; I have no problem being real. But I can afford a house, so I have a house. So would anyone else. Otherwise someone might come and lock me up.

Social engineering? The poor have been around a lot longer than that.

[ThaiGoon]

What means 'Huh'?

Very simple - ten years ago for rice, veggies and meat we budgeted about 100 Baht a day, and now the same 100 Baht does not even pay for one meal for the two of us.

I huhed because the last time I was in Thailand (which was about a year ago), I could easily get three full meals for about 100 Baht even in Bangkok (more comfortably so outside Bangkok and a few other major cities.) So I guess you and your wife must have had quite an appetite.

[ColPyat]

ColPyyat:

I agree with nearly everything you said except for the bit about Iran, My point is that Iran is horrendous place to be poor, not that it wasn't more developed than Thailand. I also think it must be a bad place to be an infidel.

Every place is rather horrendous if poor. In Iran though you see a lot less poverty than in many places, also less than here in Thailand. And being non-Muslim in Iran is actually not bad at all - you can brew and drink your own alcohol, etc. There is a large Christian minority in Iran.

Many years ago i escaped the Ramadan from Pakistan into Iran, where life was a lot easier, food available everywhere. Crime rate in Iran is very low too, it is one of the safest countries i have ever been in.

[ColPyat]

What means 'Huh'?

Very simple - ten years ago for rice, veggies and meat we budgeted about 100 Baht a day, and now the same 100 Baht does not even pay for one meal for the two of us.

I huhed because the last time I was in Thailand (which was about a year ago), I could easily get three full meals for about 100 Baht even in Bangkok (more comfortably so outside Bangkok and a few other major cities.) So I guess you and your wife must have had quite an appetite.

I'm the one with the appetite, i am not small, and all that space has to be filled. I am not talking about street food, but self cooked food.

A good meal for me consists of two large plates rice of the best available quality, and at least three or four large side dishes. Veggies and meat should be best quality as well.

[canuckamuck]

ColPyyat:

I agree with nearly everything you said except for the bit about Iran, My point is that Iran is horrendous place to be poor, not that it wasn't more developed than Thailand. I also think it must be a bad place to be an infidel.

Every place is rather horrendous if poor. In Iran though you see a lot less poverty than in many places, also less than here in Thailand. And being non-Muslim in Iran is actually not bad at all - you can brew and drink your own alcohol, etc. There is a large Christian minority in Iran.

Many years ago i escaped the Ramadan from Pakistan into Iran, where life was a lot easier, food available everywhere. Crime rate in Iran is very low too, it is one of the safest countries i have ever been in.

Assumption exposed: I apologize.

[Maigo6]

Maigo strikes again,

The thing about these types of discussions is that even though it is about relative poverty, it does give those that are considerably better off than the rest of us the chance to remind us just how well insulated they are from lifes bothersome little details.

Thanks for that. Now go and roll around in some cash. ZzZzZzZz

Don't worry Robski, the very hot weather will be over soon.

A fan room will be fine then.

[ThaiGoon]

I'm the one with the appetite, i am not small, and all that space has to be filled. I am not talking about street food, but self cooked food.

A good meal for me consists of two large plates rice of the best available quality, and at least three or four large side dishes. Veggies and meat should be best quality as well.

And I thought you were talking about an average meal for "average Thais." Didn't know you meant Kobe beef and stuff.

[ColPyat]

ColPyyat:

I agree with nearly everything you said except for the bit about Iran, My point is that Iran is horrendous place to be poor, not that it wasn't more developed than Thailand. I also think it must be a bad place to be an infidel.

Every place is rather horrendous if poor. In Iran though you see a lot less poverty than in many places, also less than here in Thailand. And being non-Muslim in Iran is actually not bad at all - you can brew and drink your own alcohol, etc. There is a large Christian minority in Iran.

Many years ago i escaped the Ramadan from Pakistan into Iran, where life was a lot easier, food available everywhere. Crime rate in Iran is very low too, it is one of the safest countries i have ever been in.

Assumption exposed: I apologize.

If you enjoy traveling, i would really advise you to travel in Iran - it's one of the greatest places i have traveled in. Beautiful architecture, excellent food, generally very friendly people, stunning landscapes, and very safe. The only thing you should observe is conservative dress, and a headscarf for your wife.

[ColPyat]

I'm the one with the appetite, i am not small, and all that space has to be filled. I am not talking about street food, but self cooked food.

A good meal for me consists of two large plates rice of the best available quality, and at least three or four large side dishes. Veggies and meat should be best quality as well.

And I thought you were talking about an average meal for "average Thais." Didn't know you meant Kobe beef and stuff.

Good food is one of the great pleasures in life. I guess that's why i married a professional cook.

[canuckamuck]

If you enjoy traveling, i would really advise you to travel in Iran - it's one of the greatest places i have traveled in. Beautiful architecture, excellent food, generally very friendly people, stunning landscapes, and very safe. The only thing you should observe is conservative dress, and a headscarf for your wife.

Consider it on the list, I hope I can make it before it glows in the dark.

[Robski]

Don't worry Robski, the very hot weather will be over soon.

A fan room will be fine then.

That's very comforting to know, the park bench is ideal at the moment,

but I really should save hard from my job as a beggar to get a fanroom for the rainy season.

After all poverty is a state of mind, this time next year I might try for airco.

[bendix]

Maigo strikes again,

The thing about these types of discussions is that even though it is about relative poverty, it does give those that are considerably better off than the rest of us the chance to remind us just how well insulated they are from lifes bothersome little details.

It does? Where can I sign up?

[Heng]

Then again, have you seen how some Farangs live, being stuck in some crappy little Fan room in a crummy little Soi in Pattaya is hardly likely to promote good feelings about ones situation in life.

I can see that. But I don't think it's fair for them to be overly cynical of Thailand just because they have a crappy life. They themselves are mostly responsible for their own plight. Even poor people in Thailand can better their lives through hard work and optimism. Majority of Chinese immigrants were hardly well off people when they started off their lives here. I'm sure they didn't become successful later on by being cynical and miserable.

I'm of the opinion that it's more than fair that foreigners and farangs whinge and moan to their heart's content. It's not just farangs who are bitter about their adopted lands. Look how many African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Native Americans, and yes even Asian Americans are bitter about their own plights. Look how many have formed/joined violent gang subcultures because they have been unable to prosper within the system. The local farang is rather tame and docile by comparison despite living under a more restrictive legal framework. They don't march in the streets, they don't organize themselves into any kind of political force, they don't bear arms, ... all they do is threaten to leave while whinging a bit while sipping Beer Chang in their homes, in front of their computers, or on bar stools. All while paying the rent on time.

Edited April 9, 2007 by Heng

[taxexile]

I have spent much time in huts;

thai visa quote of the day.

[jezchesters]

This is rapidly going off topic...

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure that you will!), I think the OP was originally talking about the notion of the 'Thirld World'. Now, if you're from the privelidged West (as I am), the majority of people will think in terms of two categories - 'First World' (North America, Western Europe, Australasia and some East Asian countries) and 'Third World' (the rest of the world). Using those criteria, I can understand why a lot of people would say that Thailand is 'Third World' - something along the lines of 'well, if it isn't as developed as Europe or America, or is poorer than Europe or America, it MUST be Third World'.

However, the subtleties are being missed. If your average Thai villager met your average Botswanan villager (or urbanite for that matter!), whose life expectancy is 37 years, wouldn't they consider themselves to be 'First World' whilst the Botswanan to be 'Third World'? In life, most people will make decisions and judgements based on their own norms and expectations - it's natural!

So, the 'First World' or 'Third World' debate is futile - it will all depend on where you are standing at the time.

The reason why agencies and governments have a plethora of terminologies such as Developing Countries, Lesser Developed Countries, Least Developed Countires, Newly Industrialised Countries etc is because the world is a big place, and is composed of many different countries in different circumstances. This is why I quoted the HDI. It show' that Thailand isn't 'First World' - at the top looking down; neither is it 'Third World' - at the bottom looking up! It just depends on where you consider yourself to be on the ladder to guage Thailand's position relative to yourself, your country or your way of life!

Rant over

[canuckamuck]

Yeah that’s about the angle I was following, so both you and I are starry-eyed, Pie-in-the-sky, Polly Annas, who can’t discern an objective opinion.

I think really the argument was coming from those who really want Thailand to be the far edge of the civilized world. It makes their experience here more heroic and exotic. It isn’t much fun to think that this is actually a pretty soft place, existence is basically guaranteed. That is not saying people don’t work hard, many work very hard, they just aren’t likely to get put in a political prison, tortured by a death squad, or starve to death.

Thanks Jezchesters for actually reading the OP.

[dantilley]

I have spent much time in huts;

thai visa quote of the day.

Agreed. By the way, do you think you could change your avatar some time? It makes me wince every time I see it.

[bingobongo]

I remain that there are some out here who couldn't say a nice thing about this place if there life was on the line.

So true.

very true, given the growing unrest in the south, the bombings in Bnagkok (more to come), and the coup, your life is very much going to be on the line. so why say anything nice given the reality that thailand is no longer the land of rainbows and lollipops. sorry you are in such denial