Third World In Whose Eyes?

[wintermute]

That doesn't preclude us from discussing what's wrong in Thailand and how it could be made better. No matter what country you are in, there are people discussing local problems and how they should be fixed.

Yes Cdnvic you are right, I never suggested otherwise. Just tired of those who are too lazy to give a bit of balance, griping is so easy.

There is plenty of balance people have already stated the good points of Thailand as well. People are more perturbed by your slippery slope reasoning. Just because there is criticism of Thailand doesn't mean people think it's the "worst" country out there in the world. However as others have pointed out you do insinuate (as do many uneducated Thais) that Thailand is somehow on par with developed nations and that everything is rosey. That is far from the truth and it's the typical starry eyed point of view that one is coerced into taking while in Thailand.

Thailand should not be compared with sub-saharan Africa or the various central asian -stans out there. Instead it should be setting its goals higher comparing itself with the true developed asian nations out there. However, it currently does not even come close to the development of those other nations.

Edited April 9, 2007 by wintermute

[canuckamuck]

ColPyyat:

I agree with nearly everything you said except for the bit about Iran, My point is that Iran is horrendous place to be poor, not that it wasn't more developed than Thailand. I also think it must be a bad place to be an infidel.

[jeebusjones]

If you are basing your response on the title of my thread alone, then you might make all sorts of assumptions I guess, Most of the thread titles here are fairly incoherent.

My opening paragraph explained my point, as is the logical process. Next time perhaps I’ll just pop up a title.

Anyhow the title of my thread more implies a question about the perception of third world characteristics in Thailand, the sub-heading suggest a comparison of good and bad. Pretty easy even without the opening paragraph.

The bulk of your opening post talks about why you think Thailand shouldn't be considered "third world." "Third world" is a term that is often misused, but everyone understands the intended meaning. (It's like people saying VOA when they mean to say visa exemption!)

The first three paragraphs of your OP, combined with the title, are probably why most people are responding with negative things rather than positive. Thailand is not considered to be a developed country by most respected sources around the world. Your post seemed to imply that you believe Thailand is developed, or at least approaching developed status. People are simply pointing out why Thailand is not considered to be a developed nation. Forgive them for using an outdated and incorrect term.

To say that Thailand is not fully developed, and to discuss some of it's weak points is not to say you hate Thailand, as others have pointed out. Thailand has many flaws, but I still enjoy living here and find my life to be much fuller than it would be in the US. I think most people here have similar feelings.

But, to answer your question about "what (for the lack of a better term) is reasonably modern:"

Shopping malls and cinemas.

Edited April 9, 2007 by jeebusjones

[ThaiGoon]

Before '97 i could feed me and the wife for 100 Baht a day very well, now that doesn't even cover one meal for the two of us.

Huh?

Anyway, Canuckamuck's been presenting a pretty fair and balanced view of Thailand. Yet he's now under attack by those who "wish Thailand well" because his obvious crime is he chose to talk about some positive Things about Thailand. A lot of nice people on here I must say.

[jeebusjones]

Before '97 i could feed me and the wife for 100 Baht a day very well, now that doesn't even cover one meal for the two of us.

Huh?

Anyway, Canuckamuck's been presenting a pretty fair and balanced view of Thailand. Yet he's now under attack by those who "wish Thailand well" because his obvious crime is he chose to talk about some positive Things about Thailand. A lot of nice people on here I must say.

I don't think he's being attacked by anyone. People are just discussing their various opinions. So far most people have been very courteous and respectful.

[canuckamuck]

Wintermute:"There is plenty of balance people have already stated the good points of Thailand as well. People are more perturbed by your slippery slope reasoning. Just because there is criticism of Thailand doesn't mean people think it's the "worst" country out there in the world. However as others have pointed out you do insinuate (as do many uneducated Thais) that Thailand is somehow on par with developed nations and that everything is rosey. That is far from the truth and it's the typical starry eyed point of view that one is coerced into taking while in Thailand. "

Criticism is essential, cynicism is destructive, optimism is healthy, and negativity is lazy and usually dishonest.

I guess I have branded myself an eternal optimist of Thailand, ‘Starry-eyed’ you say. I guess that is the result of my propping up the pro side of Thailand.

If you really looked at my reasoning, and ignored what you felt I implied. You would see I am saying:

For me, as a foreigner, Thailand offers me a better quality of life than my homeland, at least in many regards.

For Thais, I am saying they have a lot to be thankful for, they are better off than most.

If that is “Starry-eyed’ than I am guilty as charged.

[ThaiGoon]

Criticism is essential, cynicism is destructive, optimism is healthy, and negativity is lazy and usually dishonest.

And I also would like to add that it's kind of eyeopening for me to now understand that people who really wish Thailand well are actually the likes of wintermute who in the past basically called Thai people retards and predicted Thailand to be the next Philippines. They also never said anything positive about Thailand. They always criticized, and if given a chance predicted a collapse of Thailand. But now I know they just called Thai people retards because they loved us and this country and wished us well.

Edited April 9, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[jeebusjones]

And I also would like to add that it's kind of eyeopening for me to now understand that people who really wish Thailand well are actually the likes of wintermute who in the past basically called Thai people retards and predicted Thailand to be the next Philippines.

Wintermute has some very reasonable points. And regarding his "prediction," if you'll recall the very same prediction was made by the Financial Times not too long ago.

[ThaiGoon]

And regarding his "prediction," if you'll recall the very same prediction was made by the Financial Times not too long ago.

Would you be kind enough to find it and post it on here again? Thanks. I'm looking forward to reading it. Also, if you can find any concrete stats to support your claim of Thailand being "a very very poor country", I would appreciate it as well.

[brahmburgers]

Thaigoon found this bit of data: "Just a couple of corrections. Firstly, Thailand's GDP per Capita is $9,100 (2006 est.) per CIA factbook."

First off, I doubt is takes in to account the millions of dirt-poor people on the fringes. Secondly, when yu take in to account the obscenely rich 2% at the very top, then it might make some sense. I agree with most of what's been posted, including the opinions that graft is endemic in Asian (and African and Eastern European) countries. Whereas in most rich countries, there is graft at the upper echelons, in Thailand it seems to be ingrained at every level - from the vending stall usurers, to the border crossing agents - on up to the top, ad infinitum.

Most Thais seem to accept graft (along with copyright piracy) as a fact of life, but it winds up bleeding the little people of what little money they can scrape together - and creates great discrepencies in opportunity. One glaring example: many kids don't go to school because they can't afford the high prices for uniforms, shoes, books, carrying bags that are essentially required. For an impoverished family, one kid's school expenses might amount to 3 or 4 month's wages - IF the family even have any meagre income. There is no 'safety net' for the poorest - that (and other reasons) is why I would use the term '3rd World' to describe Thailand.

[wintermute]

And I also would like to add that it's kind of eyeopening for me to now understand that people who really wish Thailand well are actually the likes of wintermute who in the past basically called Thai people retards and predicted Thailand to be the next Philippines. They also never said anything positive about Thailand. They always criticized, and if given a chance predicted a collapse of Thailand. But now I know they just called Thai people retards because they loved us and this country and wished us well.

It's nice of you to put words in my mouth when I have never called all thais "retards" or anything close to that. You're basically acting in the role of self appointed propaganda minister of Thailand and it's amusing to watch you spin every news story or suppress criticism even remotely "negative" of Thailand. All this really shows is remarkable cultural or personal insecurity on your part. For your information, I do know of thais who are actually well educated and understand the concept of constructive criticism and debate.

[ThaiGoon]

Thaigoon found this bit of data: "Just a couple of corrections. Firstly, Thailand's GDP per Capita is $9,100 (2006 est.) per CIA factbook."

First off, I doubt is takes in to account the millions of dirt-poor people on the fringes. Secondly, when yu take in to account the obscenely rich 2% at the very top, then it might make some sense.

That's why later I added the posts about the Gini coefficient and some other data from UN.

And wintermute, I tried to get the exact quote of yours in which you basically said that, but apparently a chunk of your old posts have been deleted (for a good reason.) It was when we talked ablout IBM establishing a software development center in Thailand. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

Edited April 9, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[jeebusjones]

And regarding his "prediction," if you'll recall the very same prediction was made by the Financial Times not too long ago.

Would you be kind enough to find it and post it on here again? Thanks. I'm looking forward to reading it. Also, if you can find any concrete stats to support your claim of Thailand being "a very very poor country", I would appreciate it as well.

See this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...financial+times

And this is the article:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/40ddefb0-d82c-11db...0b5df10621.html

And for Thailand being a "very, very poor country," I will use the same source you quoted to me. From the CIA world factbook (all figures PPP and per capita):

United States $43,500

Canada $35,200

United Kingdom $31,400

Germany $31,400

Japan $33,100

Singapore $30,900

Korea $24,200

Uruguay $10,700

Mexico $10,600

Kazakhstan $9,100

Thailand $9,100

Iran $9,100

Brazil $8,600

Columbia $8,400

Thailand ties with Iran and Kazakhstan. It comes behind Mexico and Uruguay, two very poor countries. It comes just before Brazil and Columbia, which are the epitome of poverty an despair.

And with a per capita income (with purchasing power parity!) that's just 1/5 of the average income in my home country, then yes, I would say Thailand is a very, very poor country.

Stop being so frivolous.

[wintermute]

And wintermute, I tried to get the exact quote of yours in which you basically said that, but apparently a chunk of your old posts have been deleted (for a good reason.) It was when we talked ablout IBM establishing a software development center in Thailand. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

No, I don't actually unless you're referring to your usual hypersensitivity and temper tantrum throwing over criticism.

[canuckamuck]

And regarding his "prediction," if you'll recall the very same prediction was made by the Financial Times not too long ago.

Would you be kind enough to find it and post it on here again? Thanks. I'm looking forward to reading it. Also, if you can find any concrete stats to support your claim of Thailand being "a very very poor country", I would appreciate it as well.

See this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...financial+times

And this is the article:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/40ddefb0-d82c-11db...0b5df10621.html

And for Thailand being a "very, very poor country," I will use the same source you quoted to me. From the CIA world factbook (all figures PPP and per capita):

United States $43,500

Canada $35,200

United Kingdom $31,400

Germany $31,400

Japan $33,100

Singapore $30,900

Korea $24,200

Uruguay $10,700

Mexico $10,600

Kazakhstan $9,100

Thailand $9,100

Iran $9,100

Brazil $8,600

Columbia $8,400

Thailand ties with Iran and Kazakhstan. It comes behind Mexico and Uruguay, two very poor countries. It comes just before Brazil and Columbia, which are the epitome of poverty an despair.

And with a per capita income (with purchasing power parity!) that's just 1/5 of the average income in my home country, then yes, I would say Thailand is a very, very poor country.

Stop being so frivolous.

Economics is not my trade, so I need a bit of clarity here. Did that list place Thailand 11th in the world in PPP. That would be pretty good wouldn’t it? And equal to oil rich Iran?

What point were you trying to make?

[lannarebirth]

Criticism is essential, cynicism is destructive, optimism is healthy, and negativity is lazy and usually dishonest.

Like you I'm an optimist. In your list I might have included "to be pollyannaish is also lazy and dishonest". It's always preferable to see things as clearly as one can and then apply optimistic mind and effort.

[ThaiGoon]

And regarding his "prediction," if you'll recall the very same prediction was made by the Financial Times not too long ago.

Would you be kind enough to find it and post it on here again? Thanks. I'm looking forward to reading it. Also, if you can find any concrete stats to support your claim of Thailand being "a very very poor country", I would appreciate it as well.

See this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...financial+times

And this is the article:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/40ddefb0-d82c-11db...0b5df10621.html

And for Thailand being a "very, very poor country," I will use the same source you quoted to me. From the CIA world factbook (all figures PPP and per capita):

United States $43,500

Canada $35,200

United Kingdom $31,400

Germany $31,400

Japan $33,100

Singapore $30,900

Korea $24,200

Uruguay $10,700

Mexico $10,600

Kazakhstan $9,100

Thailand $9,100

Iran $9,100

Brazil $8,600

Columbia $8,400

Thailand ties with Iran and Kazakhstan. It comes behind Mexico and Uruguay, two very poor countries. It comes just before Brazil and Columbia, which are the epitome of poverty an despair.

And with a per capita income (with purchasing power parity!) that's just 1/5 of the average income in my home country, then yes, I would say Thailand is a very, very poor country.

Stop being so frivolous.

In terms of GDP per Capita, Thailand has been ranked around the mid 60's to the mid 70's out of 194 countries in recent years(per IMF.) I would say that places Thailand firmly in a midincome level country. Actually, if we use the standard criteria of mid income countries (at least $1000 in terms of nomial GDP per capita), Thailand has surpassed that mark several years ago (since the 80's I believe). (Right now Thailand's nominal GDP per capita stands at about $4,000 ish.)

I asked for your concrete stats, not your subjective opinion. Your claim that Thailand is a very very poor country is just a subjective statement and you obviously don't have anything to back it up. The numbers all say otherwise.

As for the Financial Time article, I already commented in the thread that the claim by a filipino with which the article ended can only be taken with a grain of salt. It's absurd. And no where in the article did it say that Thailand is destined to be the next Philippines.

Edited April 9, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[ThaiGoon]

And wintermute, I tried to get the exact quote of yours in which you basically said that, but apparently a chunk of your old posts have been deleted (for a good reason.) It was when we talked ablout IBM establishing a software development center in Thailand. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

No, I don't actually unless you're referring to your usual hypersensitivity and temper tantrum throwing over criticism.

It's not exact verbiage. But its essence was that.

[jeebusjones]

Economics is not my trade, so I need a bit of clarity here. Did that list place Thailand 11th in the world in PPP. That would be pretty good wouldn’t it? And equal to oil rich Iran?

What point were you trying to make?

The point was directed at "thaigoon," who is playing silly word games. And I think the point is fairly obvious: Thailand is poor. Iran may be "oil rich," but do you honestly consider Iran to be a rich, developed nation?

What was the point you were trying to make, canuck?

When this thread started it was fairly interesting and had the potential to be a constructive debate on the state of Thailand. But now it is just becoming ridiculous. People are jumping on one side of the fence and completely turning a blind eye to the other side.

What is the debate here?

Thailand is poor. It is a developing nation. It has many problems, including corruption, poor infrastructure, lack of social services and a terrible education system.

Do you honestly wish to deny that these things exist?

BUT, on the other hand, in the wide range of countries in the world today, Thailand is in the middle. It is much better than Botswana or Angola or Bolivia, but far below Sweden, Switzerland, the US etc...

It is also a very pleasant place to live, if you have some money. Great food, friendly people, beautiful girls and beaches.

To deny the negative points and only focus on the positive is very simple-minded, and reflects an insecurity in your own confidence about your decision to live here.

On the other hand, to deny the positive points and only focus on the negatives is very harmful for all people involved, and reflects a personality that wouldn't be happy anywhere in the world.

The issue isn't black and white. Some things are good, some are bad.

The way your OP was worded, it led me (and obviously many others) to believe that you were comparing Thailand to fully developed countries in the west. If people have added more negative points than positive ones, it's probably because there are many reasons why Thailand is not considered a developed country.

On the other hand, if you had wanted to talk about how Thailand is better off than Africa or Central America or other extremely impoverished countries, I'm sure you would have gotten many more positive responses. I believe you were actually asking for the latter comparison, but obviously most people misunderstood.

[ThaiGoon]

The point was directed at "thaigoon," who is playing silly word games. And I think the point is fairly obvious: Thailand is poor. Iran may be "oil rich," but do you honestly consider Iran to be a rich, developed nation?

Yeah, I'm playing silly word games by going prancing around in this thread claiming that Thailand is "very very poor counry" without anything objective to back it up.

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/D...:239419,00.html

Country Classification

For operational and analytical purposes, the World Bank’s main criterion for classifying economies is gross national income (GNI) per capita.

Income group: Economies are divided according to 2005 GNI per capita, calculated using the World Bank Atlas method. The groups are: low income, $875 or less; lower middle income, $876 - $3,465; upper middle income, $3,466 - $10,725; and high income, $10,726 or more.

......

Actually my memory was wrong. Thailand's GNI per capita as of 2005 was not around $4000. It's about $2,600. So Thailand is a lower middle income country.

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/D...:239419,00.html

Edited April 9, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[jeebusjones]

Yeah, I'm playing silly word games by going prancing around in this thread claiming that Thailand is "very very poor counry" without anything objective to back it up.

Of course it was subjective. "Poor" is a subjective word. It's purely relative and depends on who you're speaking to and what you're comparing. I was offering my opinion. Why do you take such offense to it?

Thailand is a poor country. Do you disagree with this?

Compared to the US, Thailand is very, very poor. Compared to Uganda, Thailand is very, very wealthy. So forget about the "very, very" and stop being so ridiculous.

Edited April 9, 2007 by jeebusjones

[wintermute]

The point was directed at "thaigoon," who is playing silly word games. And I think the point is fairly obvious: Thailand is poor. Iran may be "oil rich," but do you honestly consider Iran to be a rich, developed nation?

Yeah, I'm playing silly word games by going prancing around in this thread claiming that Thailand is "very very poor counry" without anything objective to back it up.

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/D...:239419,00.html

Country Classification

For operational and analytical purposes, the World Bank's main criterion for classifying economies is gross national income (GNI) per capita.

Income group: Economies are divided according to 2005 GNI per capita, calculated using the World Bank Atlas method. The groups are: low income, $875 or less; lower middle income, $876 - $3,465; upper middle income, $3,466 - $10,725; and high income, $10,726 or more.

......

Actually my memory was wrong. Thailand's GNI per capita as of 2005 was not around $4000. It's about $2,600. So Thailand is a lower middle income country.

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/D...:239419,00.html

By the world bank categorical definition "poor" would be an accurate layman's description. I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with labeling it as such given the income disparity between Thailand (lower middle income category) and the high income developed countries. The next category down from lower middle income is filled with countries from destitute african nations and other wartorn countries.

Edited April 9, 2007 by wintermute

[cdnvic]

It doesn't matter how optimistic you are about Thailand's future, if you can't be honest about it's present state then nothing good can be made of it.

Thaigoon, I sometimes feel sorry for you because you probably feel like one guy defending your country against an onslaught. However you create much of your own problem by taking constructive criticism and genuine concern for Thailand and acting as if it was an attack. It's not, and the more you try and make it out to be by exaggerating everything and seeing "very very" and "retarded" where nobody spoke them but in your imagination. That along with your frequent name calling makes you look silly and immature.

Accept the fact that there are problems with Thailand and that people are concerned and stop acting like an angry child every time people try to have a reasonable discussion about the state of Thailand, it's society, and economy.

I happen to love Thailand, as do many here. I also want things to improve for Thais as I do for the people of my own country. I know that neither is going to happen by putting on rose coloured glasses and saying that everything is going to work out fine. Progress just doesn't happen that way.

[ThaiGoon]

Thailand is a poor country. Do you disagree with this?

Thailand is a lower middle income country that's on the verge of becoming an upper middle income one in a few years. That's what World Bank and I see Thailand. And there's plenty of data to support that.

[ThaiGoon]

It doesn't matter how optimistic you are about Thailand's future, if you can't be honest about it's present state then nothing good can be made of it.

Thaigoon, I sometimes feel sorry for you because you probably feel like one guy defending your country against an onslaught. However you create much of your own problem by taking constructive criticism and genuine concern for Thailand and acting as if it was an attack. It's not, and the more you try and make it out to be by exaggerating everything and seeing "very very" and "retarded" where nobody spoke them but in your imagination. That along with your frequent name calling makes you look silly and immature.

Accept the fact that there are problems with Thailand and that people are concerned and stop acting like an angry child every time people try to have a reasonable discussion about the state of Thailand, it's society, and economy.

I happen to love Thailand, as do many here. I also want things to improve for Thais as I do for the people of my own country. I know that neither is going to happen by putting on rose coloured glasses and saying that everything is going to work out fine. Progress just doesn't happen that way.

Yeah, Jeebusjones didn't say Thailand is a very very poor country. It's my imagination. I also did a lot of name calling and overreacted since my first post in this thread.

And believe me I can tell the difference between constructive criticisms and cynical ones.

Edited April 9, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[canuckamuck]

What was the point you were trying to make, canuck?

When this thread started it was fairly interesting and had the potential to be a constructive debate on the state of Thailand. But now it is just becoming ridiculous. People are jumping on one side of the fence and completely turning a blind eye to the other side.

What is the debate here?

Well obviously this post is wandering, they all do. I made a point in my OP that TV posters use the term third world in a derogatory fashion, when the term itself is a bit vague. I was mistaken that there would be some valid comparisons made. Everyone just cherry picked and spewed out their predictable rants. The trend of the conversation has polarized the posters. This is fairly common, and not my fault. And very few have much to say in defense of the place they choose to live, and I find that fairly sad. I mean here we are a bunch of ‘first-worlders’ choosing to live on the other side of the planet, but refusing to admit this place is very appealing for whatever reason. Pretty poor guests by my standards. Exactly the stuff that creates anti-farang sentiment in the first place. A bunch of takers, taking, and criticizing the source.

It would be great if these threads developed some useful western solutions and brainstorming but you don’t get that here. I assume cynicism is pretty tough to avoid when you are obviously just here to take your piece. Probably a bit of, “I know I have no good intentions so the same must be true for you.”

The financial numbers put Thailand off of the bottom and no where near the top.

The _______ government is corrupt. Insert any country name in Blank.

Developing countries have poor education and low ethical standards, no kidding?

How about digging a little deeper, Thais act free, talk free, play free. Awesome, I don’t see that in the poor elsewhere. Must be something special here. Something that cannot be found anywhere, especially the blessed First world.

[Robski]

Material things are vastly over rated. Poverty is on those who are poor in spirit.

Canuckamuck your posts are normally interesting and intelligent, but you have really shown your true colours with this thread.

You've stated your own position and then asked other posters to state their opinions, that they do not agree with your view does not make them 'hypocrites' for living in or visiting Thailand. The criticism is aimed at you, not at Thailand.

A very interesting quote above from someone who claims to come from a poor background, claims to know enough about poverty to know the difference between the poverty trap and freedom of choice and who is obviously able to enjoy the kind of material comforts that 90% of Thais only dream of.

Edited April 9, 2007 by Robski

[cdnvic]

I mean here we are a bunch of ‘first-worlders’ choosing to live on the other side of the planet, but refusing to admit this place is very appealing for whatever reason. Pretty poor guests by my standards. Exactly the stuff that creates anti-farang sentiment in the first place. A bunch of takers, taking, and criticizing the source.

...and no shortage of holier than thou pundits lecturing the rest of us for daring to criticise what we see as wrong.

You have no clue what people on this board contribute to their communities, so you are in no place to talk down to them like that.

Edited April 9, 2007 by cdnvic

[ThaiGoon]

I mean here we are a bunch of ‘first-worlders’ choosing to live on the other side of the planet, but refusing to admit this place is very appealing for whatever reason. Pretty poor guests by my standards. Exactly the stuff that creates anti-farang sentiment in the first place. A bunch of takers, taking, and criticizing the source.

...and no shortage of holier than thou pundits lecturing the rest of us for daring to criticise what we see as wrong.

You have no clue what people on this board contribute to their communities, so you are in no place to talk down to them like that.

Come on. Let's be real here. There are a bunch of farangs in Thailand who are just like what Canuckamuck's described. I know some must have contributed to their communities, but Canuckamuck wasn't talking about them. You know what wintermute has contributed to his Thai community?

Cdnvic actually you are one of the more reasonable people who quite often does offer constructive criticisms about Thailand. (I really see that.) I'm sure Canuckamuck wasn't talking about you. So don't take offense and end up protecting those who deserve what Canuckamuck's saying about them. I'm pretty sure they are ones of the reasons why there's growing anti-farang sentiments among Thais. You can't deny that there's no cynicisms towards Thailand and Thai people in this forum. You can't say that every criticsm of Thailand on here has been constructive. That's reality. And those who are always cynical of Thailand are just what Canuckamuck said.

Edited April 9, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[Mid]

1/2 full or 1/2 empty ,

either way ,

there's a long way to go ............................