Lifestyle & Language

[meemiathai]

But many rural Thais speak Issan or Laos, Must you also learn Laos to really understand Thailand, Whenever I've been to the boonies its only the youngsters that can speak proper Thai - Are you suggesting that speaking to kids will give you as much understanding of village life as talking to the village elders?

Most older Thais in the rural areas can't read or write, do they not understand the REAL Thailand either?

What about someone born Thai who's mute/deaf? are they alos missing out on the REAL Thailand?

What about Canada, must you be Fluent in English AND French before you understand the REAL Canada?

At the rate its going, the US will be mainly spanish speaking in 50 years or so, will then all of a sudden the English speakers not know the real USA?

You are getting ridiculous now.

You are the only one here who goes on about the REAL ( ) Thailand, refusing to accept that strong language skills are necessary in order to communicate with the millions of Thais who do not speak English, and therefore getting a wider understanding of Thailand, its people, and the culture.

You are plain wrong when you think that most folks in the rural areas don't speak central Thai. Nowadays only the very old cannot speak central Thai at all, most young people do speak central Thai very well, and middle aged ones do as well, though with strong accents.

I think I understand what Ben is saying and I kind of agree with him. I feel that the argument here is like saying oranges are tastier than apples.

There are people who are capable of understanding a lot about a country and a lot about the mentality of the people of a country but can speak very little the language(due to a few reasons). Same there could be people who speaks a language quite fluently but can only understand very superficially about the country.

Language is just a tool to communicate, if one is capable of using an alternative, then it could be quite the same. Although I must agree that it is always better to also learn the language. Coz it is quite clear to me when I sometimes try to translate something from english to chinese

that there is actually no such concept in the other culture. That means one will have to actually speak the language to more easily understand that mentality.

[steveromagnino]

But many rural Thais speak Issan or Laos, Must you also learn Laos to really understand Thailand, Whenever I've been to the boonies its only the youngsters that can speak proper Thai - Are you suggesting that speaking to kids will give you as much understanding of village life as talking to the village elders?

Most older Thais in the rural areas can't read or write, do they not understand the REAL Thailand either?

What about someone born Thai who's mute/deaf? are they alos missing out on the REAL Thailand?

What about Canada, must you be Fluent in English AND French before you understand the REAL Canada?

At the rate its going, the US will be mainly spanish speaking in 50 years or so, will then all of a sudden the English speakers not know the real USA?

I think we are getting into semantics now. Can we simply agree that knowing the Thai language makes understanding Thailand and Thai people easier?

Beyond that you seem sure that a non-Thai speaking person can truly understand THailand as much as a Thai speaking one. I suppose eventually that might be true, after all anyone can learn anything with some effort. In my opinion, learning Thai is easy, and the benefits are massive for understanding the world around you; in your opinion they aren't. Fair enough.

I would say though that my beliefs apply to most of the things I do; regarding sailing, snowboarding, Muay Thai, windsurfing, triathalons, my area of study, my work, music - the people I tend to listen to and believe tend to have their own experience in each of these fields so they simply know and understand more than someone standing on the sidelines. But that is not to say it is impossible for someone to be able to 'truly understand' how to make a boat go fast or make great starts in a yacht race without ever having sailed themselves, but instead basing it all on reading, education and talking to experts. Let me know if you ever meet someone like that :-)

I just simply haven't met too many in the haven't done it themselves category; however no doubt it can be done.

And on that note, I have yet to meet a non-Thai speaker that actually didn't stand out like a sore thumb in rural Thailand, no matter how long they had been here. hel_l, despite my vastly hansum man good looks, whirling dervish grin, extensive collection of toothpaste and trail of used condoms, I find even I stand out like a sore thumb. But at least i can chat away with people and get some inkling of what life as a rubber tapper is like; how and when the boat guys in Phuket make their money and look after their boats; what various people think of the govt, politics and a few banned subjects, and so on. That makes me less of a sore thumb. More like a sore little finger.

So....pull my finger :-) Funnily enough, I doubt a non-english speaker would get that. Which is probably why they will never understand the glorious stench of 'the real cheese cutter'

Edited April 10, 2007 by steveromagnino

[Crow Boy]

I've been here 5 years and don't speak fluently, I'd like to but between the family, staff and businesses I just don't have time to learn - I'd rather spend my time keeping up with technology which enables me to earn a good salary and look after my family nicely, learning Thai wouldn't make me any more money or any happier here, I'll probably be fluent one day but would never rub it in people's faces who are not.

Reading through the posts there has not been one that I would interpret as "rubbing anyones face in it". The OP was what real advantages are there, if any, to learning to speak Thai. Some people have said in their opinion there are none, others inlcuding me think there are. Different views for different reasons.

To suggest that people who aren't fluent in Thai don't know the REAL Thailand, Shouldn't be issued Visas, get ripped off, aren't respected, don't understand any Thai people and won't experience true friendship or relationships is verging on the ludicrous and is certainly insulting to those who have great friendships, family, relationships and an enjoyable, amiable life here.

You are the one who has decide to make an issue about the so called REAL Thailand speaking Thai makes no difference, this is not what the OP was about. It would make my life impossible to do what I do every day without being able to read, write, and converse in Thai. Your life is apparently different. My wife does not speak English so we would not be able to converse, we would not have met, we would not have married, we would not have a child. The fact that I can speak to her in Thai allows me to do that or would you prefer she be the one to learn English?

I am the person who wrote the part about the visa and that is a relevant point refer to Visa Requirements Australia has implemented these changes in requirements for people who want to live and/or study in Australia. Thailand does not require the ability to converse in Thai to be granted any type of LONG term visa such as to study or live here.

Its sometimes the misunderstandings, getting lost, having Thais trying out their English, that can often make situations fun.

Absolutely correct and yet you want the Thais to be the ones in Thailand to speak English to foreigners who live here? If it was a mutual exchange in English and Thai and the solution was found then that would be good. However if the foreigner was able to converse in Thai then not only would he find out where he was, he may find out lots of other interesting things as well including how to avoid getting lost in the first place.

I could say that you haven't experienced Thailand until you have a Thai wife, a Baby, a business, have Thai staff to manage, have to deal with Thai customs or the Tax office etc...

Agreed and do that already, and add the in laws, next door neighbours, and the local kids who come and visit to ask me to explain their English homework to them. And the ability to talk to the doctor because my wife has a lump and understanding what he means, and the ladies in the markets. Going to a Thai movie without subtitles and being able to follow the plot. Listening to Thai songs and follow the words, able to sing karaoke (badly) with friends.

As my reading progresses I am looking forward to reading the many books in Thailand, written by Thais, for Thais, and understanding them. The vast majority of them will never be translated into English. Then I will start to understand that part which is the Thai in Thailand.

To suggest that there is some secret Thailand with mysterious secrets that are only unlocked when you become fluent in Thai is pretty ridiculous, the high handedness and condescension apparent from a lot of people who are Fluent and boasting of it actually suggests they have a far more limited knowledge of Thailand or Thai'ness than they seem to think.

Again I don't think anyone here has posted that they are fluent in Thai and I am not one of them. However I spend almost all my working day speaking Thai and at home it is the only language we share as a family. In another year I will start to teach my son how to speak English. If my family lived in the US, Englan, or Australia - she would learn English because that would help her to live in her adopted country. However this is Thailand - we speak Thai here.

Speaking and understanding a language is the beginning of understanding a culture, a people, and is a sign of respect that I think learning their language is a worthwhile exercise.

CB

[Tornado]

Well written Crow Boy, I wish I had the time and patience to put a post together like that.

I agree with your thoughts 100%. I also see a few similarities in every day life. Except I dont read or write.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Tornado

[percy2]

fluent which is the automatic understanding, comprehension and free flow of conversation in accent without thinking about it, saying anything incorrectly and completely understanding the context

Funny thing is according to this description I don't know many people who are fluent in their native Toungue , let alone a second language.

[Crow Boy]

fluent which is the automatic understanding, comprehension and free flow of conversation in accent without thinking about it, saying anything incorrectly and completely understanding the context

Funny thing is according to this description I don't know many people who are fluent in their native Toungue , let alone a second language.

I don't know about that - put me on a bar stool on a Friday evening with six mates and after a few rounds of drinks the whole lot of us saying stuff like "maaate I know what you mean", the comprehension factor kicks in after several more beers, and the conversation starts to free flow without any thinking about what they are saying. We are always saying to the noisy guys at the next table "so yeah what's wrong with what I said eh" and it is all within context as long as the context is long, convoluted, and totally meaningless. It is one of the reasons I practice on Thai Visa so as to get up to speed for these sessions.

CB

Edited April 10, 2007 by Crow Boy

[Flysiam]

Well written Crow Boy, I wish I had the time and patience to put a post together like that.

I agree with your thoughts 100%. I also see a few similarities in every day life. Except I dont read or write.

I must second the kudo to Crow Boy - nice response!

I think the OPS question is quite simple and yet here we are with multiple pages of criticism and flames and oneupmanships. I think it is a simple answer - Yes, there are advantages to knowing Thai and to whatever level of fluency you may attain. Just as you would knowing the native language in any other country you would go to.

For someone to define 'fluent' is a ways out there. Am I fluent in Thai? - maybe so. I went to Secondary School through MS 4 (old system) in Thai schools and International schools - Am I fluent in English? - maybe so ... have a degree from a University in the US. I have taught seminars in Thai... I am comfortable in my abilities.

To say that "I only know 2 - 3 people who are fluent....so thats all there is" is WAY out there. I am a farang and even today (35 + years later) when I meet with my old school friends, though I am very much on the 'inside' but notably on the 'outside' because I am farang. That division is very distinct in Thailand - argue with it if you must and I am sure there will be some that will but if you do I will stand by my OPINION and say you are kidding yourself. Even if you attain Thai citizenship you will always be a farang (if you are one) and wearing your Thai ID card around your neck as proof of your 'status' would do little but confuse someone for a few and create a giggle or two at most.

Learn the language whereever you go - it just creates a better feeling for all involved, ok you may get something cheaper too and you exercise a few brain cells along the way.

Lighten up everyone.

edited for spelling - lest someone think I am less fluent

Edited April 10, 2007 by Flysiam

[percy2]

fluent which is the automatic understanding, comprehension and free flow of conversation in accent without thinking about it, saying anything incorrectly and completely understanding the context

Funny thing is according to this description I don't know many people who are fluent in their native Toungue , let alone a second language.

I don't know about that - put me on a bar stool on a Friday evening with six mates and after a few rounds of drinks the whole lot of us saying stuff like "maaate I know what you mean", the comprehension factor kicks in after several more beers, and the conversation starts to free flow without any thinking about what they are saying. We are always saying to the noisy guys at the next table "so yeah what's wrong with what I said eh" and it is all within context as long as the context is long, convoluted, and totally meaningless. It is one of the reasons I practice on Thai Visa so as to get up to speed for these sessions.

CB

Thats fluid not fluent. I speak perfectly fluid Thai after about 10 pints.

I'm probably the loud one on the next table

[longway]

O.K., I need some comments/advice here...

I have been trying to learn Thai for almost two years now. I took a 6 week intensive Thai class from a local university. I hired a tutor for 6 hours per week. I set aside two hours each morning and evening to study Thai. I practice when I can at the market, with my Thai friends, on the phone...all seemingly to no avail.

I know I am not stupid or a bad student. I got through 4 years of undergraduate college, then a master's then 4 more years graduate school for a doctorate, so I know how to study...or so I thought.

The only response I get when I try to speak Thai to a native-speaker it seems is a puzzled look and finally resorting to English or sign language. A close Thai friend said, Kit (my nickname) you understand pretty good but you speak not so well.

I do have a physical disability which makes it difficult for me to enunciate words and the tones are killers for me.

Any advice. Oh, and forget handwriting Thai, my disability affects my fine motor movements so handwriting English is almost impossible, let alone Thai.

Serious suggestions please. How long did it take you to learn? What am I doing wrong?

I recently bought a CD called 'Improving your Thai Pronounciation' by Benjawan Poonsan Becker. Maybe doing enunciation drills will help you find a way around your problem. Just a suggestion, hope it helps.

[Naam]

You are the only one here who goes on about the REAL ( rolleyes.gif) Thailand, refusing to accept that strong language skills are necessary in order to communicate with the millions of Thais who do not speak English, and therefore getting a wider understanding of Thailand, its people, and the culture.

i like Thailand, i like thai people, i live in Thailand and i am since three decades interested in thai culture. however, i don't have to communicate with "millions of Thais" to obtain a better understanding of Thailand. being a farang who speaks four languages fluently and able to conduct basic communication in another three or four languages i have learned that it takes extremely high language skills to "learn about culture" from average people. most of us farangs will never acquire this level.

[ColPyat]

You are the only one here who goes on about the REAL ( rolleyes.gif) Thailand, refusing to accept that strong language skills are necessary in order to communicate with the millions of Thais who do not speak English, and therefore getting a wider understanding of Thailand, its people, and the culture.

i like Thailand, i like thai people, i live in Thailand and i am since three decades interested in thai culture. however, i don't have to communicate with "millions of Thais" to obtain a better understanding of Thailand. being a farang who speaks four languages fluently and able to conduct basic communication in another three or four languages i have learned that it takes extremely high language skills to "learn about culture" from average people. most of us farangs will never acquire this level.

I believe we have here a slight misunderstanding about the term 'culture'. The way how i use the term is not limited to classical poetry, court music and advanced philosophy, but the way of life, and thinking of people. Also contemporary culture, youth culture, social and political developments and how people from different sectors view them is culture. For that the only thing required are fluent colloquial skills, not though true fluency.

But one definitely gets a far wider understanding of Thailand if one can directly communicate more than the basic with people who had not the opportunity to learn English (which sadly is the majority of Thais, and it is not exactly their fault), and being able to listen into, and take part in discussions of the more educated when they speak in their own language.

[onzestan]

I think we are getting into semantics now. Can we simply agree that knowing the Thai language makes understanding Thailand and Thai people easier?

I fail to see why I have to understand something to be able to love it.

I have never understood women, but I do love them, and I think it's the same with Thailand.

Look how small children from different cultures and different linguistic backgrounds understand each other perfectly when playing.

Maybe it's not so much the language barrier that differentiates us but the screens we have put up (maybe unknowingly) and our attitudes towards life in general that create the barriers.

No offence intended.

cheers

onzestan

[GuestHouse]

i have learned that it takes extremely high language skills to "learn about culture" from average people. most of us farangs will never acquire this level.

I disagree.

I recall very well that it was not long after I started learning Thai that I started to become aware of the emphasis within the language on certain values. The most striking example is the emphasis of family and the multitude of titles for members of the cultural norm, the extended family.

Once language is understood to be a window on thinking and culture, it becomes a unique window on society. Importantly, it provides an insight into what Thais say is their culture and what their use of language reveals is their actual living culture.

I do agree that as Thai language skills improve this 'window' into Thai society becomes more available for the student of the language, but importantly s/he must also be a student of the culture.

If by temperament, intellectual ability or simple lack personal interest the Thai speaker is not inclined to investigate Thai culture through language, then his/her language skills are not going to instill an understanding.

Non Thai speakers may take comfort from this idea of a Thai speaker not necessarily understanding the culture. But I also believe that the insights a non Thai speaker has into Thai culture are restricted by the absence of Thai language.

This is patently true. The language carries and expresses aspects of the culture, if you don't have the language you cannot access this wealth of cultural information and expression.

There is also the problem of 'Source'. If you don't speak the language you must rely on people who speak both the language and your own language to interpret for you. This is problematic on a number of fronts. Firstly does your interpreter possess the language skills to accurately interpret on your behalf? Perhaps more importantly, is your interpreter telling you what 'IS' or are you being told 'What your interpreter believes ought to be'?

Language skill reveals this disparity in what Thais say is their culture and what their culture actually is.

That is not to say people who do not have Thai language skills can't have a deep knowledge of Thai culture, after all, just as temperament, intellect and personal interest can hamper examination of culture as a subject, so to can they drive that interest.

But it remains, if you don't have Thai language, then you are not hearing/reading everything, and much of what you are hearing, may not be true, you have no way of judging, you are reliant on your interpreter.

Edited April 10, 2007 by GuestHouse

[sbk]

Colypat said: I believe we have here a slight misunderstanding about the term 'culture'. The way how i use the term is not limited to classical poetry, court music and advanced philosophy, but the way of life, and thinking of people. Also contemporary culture, youth culture, social and political developments and how people from different sectors view them is culture. For that the only thing required are fluent colloquial skills, not though true fluency.

Agreed Colypat, however, I have to add that learning the local culture is more than just being able to converse but also participating in local customs. I am not fluent, not by a long shot. BUT, I get along with the local dialect just fine, understand pretty much everything around me (everyday conversation) and understand local life far better than someone who comes along and speaks fluent Bangkok Thai, and who also, I might add, won't understand more than 3 words in 10 from the locals.

That said, I participate in the local life. I go to weddings, funerals, house openings and ordinations with my husband. I know when to wai and who and how. And although I may not be able to explain it well to an outsider, I know it well enough myself to rarely make a mistake. I know how to behave at a funeral, what are the appropriate clothes to wear and when. Same with a wedding. Many of my husband's relatives laugh and tell me that I am just like a Thai person which, we all know I am not. But it is kindly meant and implies that I have learnt their ways enough to fit in.

Do I understand life in Isaan or the North or even the deep South? Nope. Don't speak the language and haven't spent any real time there. But I do understand where I live as well as any foreigner can hope to.

So, could someone who doesn't speak the local dialect have a similar understanding of what is going on around them? How could they? They don't even understand what is being said.

If you want to live with Thais in Thailand then it is important to make the effort to learn the language. I don't speak Bangkok Thai and have no wish to, I don't live there, rarely go there and if I had learned it instead of the local dialect I would have been left out of all that happened around me because I wouldn't have been able to understand.

If you have Thai family, or if you want to become part of the community you live in, then you must learn the language. If you want to be a permanent tourist then don't bother.

No smugness involved, just an understanding that if you live in a country and you want to take part in its life, you must learn that country's language. Regardless of what country it may happen to be; Thailand, Germany, or Greece. (that was a random pick of countries btw so please don't bother ripping it apart, thanks)

[soundman]

You are the only one here who goes on about the REAL ( rolleyes.gif) Thailand, refusing to accept that strong language skills are necessary in order to communicate with the millions of Thais who do not speak English, and therefore getting a wider understanding of Thailand, its people, and the culture.

i like Thailand, i like thai people, i live in Thailand and i am since three decades interested in thai culture. however, i don't have to communicate with "millions of Thais" to obtain a better understanding of Thailand. being a farang who speaks four languages fluently and able to conduct basic communication in another three or four languages i have learned that it takes extremely high language skills to "learn about culture" from average people. most of us farangs will never acquire this level.

I believe we have here a slight misunderstanding about the term 'culture'. The way how i use the term is not limited to classical poetry, court music and advanced philosophy, but the way of life, and thinking of people. Also contemporary culture, youth culture, social and political developments and how people from different sectors view them is culture. For that the only thing required are fluent colloquial skills, not though true fluency.

But one definitely gets a far wider understanding of Thailand if one can directly communicate more than the basic with people who had not the opportunity to learn English (which sadly is the majority of Thais, and it is not exactly their fault), and being able to listen into, and take part in discussions of the more educated when they speak in their own language.

For example:

Walk up to your falang staff & tell them to "pull their fingures out" & they'll get the message to work faster.

Walk up to the thai staff & tell them to "pull their fingures out" & they will ask from what?

Walk up to your falang staff & tell them that they have "a long back" & they'll look at you like you've come from Mars.

Tell that to your thai staff & they'll get the message that you think they are being lazy.

(Appropriate language for appropriate groups).

Cheers,

Soundman.

[ColPyat]

Agreed Colypat, however, I have to add that learning the local culture is more than just being able to converse but also participating in local customs.

Absolutely true, as well as the rest of your post.

[GuestHouse]

We should also accept that Thailand is a class ridden society and as such, the 'perks' that come with fluency are to a very large extent determined by the language set you are fluent in.

The wrong accent, the wrong dialect, and the wrong phraseology can and does slam doors shut quicker than a howling gale.

Better sometimes to speak no Thai than speak the wrong Thai.

[steveromagnino]

We should also accept that Thailand is a class ridden society and as such, the 'perks' that come with fluency are to a very large extent determined by the language set you are fluent in.

The wrong accent, the wrong dialect, and the wrong phraseology can and does slam doors shut quicker than a howling gale.

Better sometimes to speak no Thai than speak the wrong Thai.

Better sometimes to say nothing in any language and have people suspect I am an idiot, than open my mouth and confirm it.

Interestingly, I have MANY Thai friends who claim they do not really understand how Southern Thais (or Northern Thais or Isaan Thais) think or why they do what they do. Why? Because my Thai friends say 'first off, well they don't speak the same language as us, so I cannot understand what they are saying...therefore I don't really understand them.'

Of course, they don't actually say that. They say something in Thai that sounds like 'him south man, him not same same me why him tink differen me. No undersa-tan.' Or something to that effect.

Given that my mother has spent almost 60 years in New Zealand and still claims that 'all white people look much the same' that she cannot really understand what white people are thinking etc etc; and that is WITH speaking english....well I hate to think what my grandparents think, having lived there for almost 60 years and still unable to speak anything in ungrit beyond the McDonalds menu.

Guesthouse - I am totally with you on the language nuances; seniority, family, relationship of work to fun, time and punctuality, reticence to speak out at certain times, degrees of precision; all comes out clearly from the language. Understand and use the language effectively, and work becomes 'sometimes' more enjoyable and more productive. And I am surrounded by people graduating from places like LSE, Oxford, Duke, UCLA, etc - all still have certain conversations in Thai and certain conversations in english. Seems pretty selfish to make them all speak english just because of little old me.

Well not old, young.

Well not young.

Somewhere in the middle. 30 yung jaew na.

[sbk]

We should also accept that Thailand is a class ridden society and as such, the 'perks' that come with fluency are to a very large extent determined by the language set you are fluent in.

The wrong accent, the wrong dialect, and the wrong phraseology can and does slam doors shut quicker than a howling gale.

Better sometimes to speak no Thai than speak the wrong Thai.

Very true, and it does depend on where you live and who you interact with.

Outside of my island, I tend to speak very limited Thai as my accent and language immediately marks me as living in the South. In the area (ie, Samui, the mainland and nearby) my accent and language opens more doors for me than Bangkok Thai ever would.

Its a good idea to learn when and where (and with who) to use the Thai you know

[sbk]

Well not old, young.

Well not young.

Somewhere in the middle. 30 yung jaew na.

We'll let you have "young"

[steveromagnino]

Well not old, young.

Well not young.

Somewhere in the middle. 30 yung jaew na.

We'll let you have "young"

Nah ruk tee soot....

or should I say.....

suay jung hoo!

[GuestHouse]

Very true, and it does depend on where you live and who you interact with.

Indeed I agree, but here's an observation on how who you interact with is sometimes beyond what you may expect.

Like many foreigners, when I travel around Thailand I stay in mid to high end hotels and inevitably meet and interact with Thais who are staying in these hotels.

It is quite clear that the Thais who stay in these hotels are financially better off, or their bill is being paid by their employers. Now I'm not going to get into the old 'name dropping game', there is no need any one of us staying in these hotels is almost certain to meet Thais wealthy/connected/influential/well known (or all of those together). The Thai you speak to these people does matter - unless of course you are content not to speak to others you meet in the hotel (a personal choice for sure).

But there are times when you do not have a choice. At the immigration office, the employment office, at work, the bank, the police station, the hospital... you name it, if you are interacting with educated Thais the Thai you speak matters.

[soundman]

Very true, and it does depend on where you live and who you interact with.

Indeed I agree, but here's an observation on how who you interact with is sometimes beyond what you may expect.

Like many foreigners, when I travel around Thailand I stay in mid to high end hotels and inevitably meet and interact with Thais who are staying in these hotels.

It is quite clear that the Thais who stay in these hotels are financially better off, or their bill is being paid by their employers. Now I'm not going to get into the old 'name dropping game', there is no need any one of us staying in these hotels is almost certain to meet Thais wealthy/connected/influential/well known (or all of those together). The Thai you speak to these people does matter - unless of course you are content not to speak to others you meet in the hotel (a personal choice for sure).

But there are times when you do not have a choice. At the immigration office, the employment office, at work, the bank, the police station, the hospital... you name it, if you are interacting with educated Thais the Thai you speak matters.

So true. I pick up all the slang & gutter thai (issan, lao & kymen as well) from my staff, & my wife is contstantly correcting me. With your exact observations in mind...

Another article "Camerata's guide to PR" makes explicit note that when it comes to the language test, Camerata was out of sorts, speaking "spoken" thai quite well, however not understanding as well as he perhaps could off, for a better word for it, "correct thai".

Cheers,

Soundman.

[undercover]

This has been a very interesting topic for me.

...................................

A lot of these bubble-livers not only live in a bubble, but their only meaningful link to the world outside the bubble is their girlfriend/wife. Her viewpoint and take on things will color his viewpoint/take on things to a great extent.

...................................

I think this is very true, it shows the need to learn Thai so as to have a view of your own.

...................................

I spend almost all my working day speaking Thai and at home it is the only language we share as a family. In another year I will start to teach my son how to speak English. If my family lived in the US, Englan, or Australia - she would learn English because that would help her to live in her adopted country. However this is Thailand - we speak Thai here.

...................................

The comment above says it all, This is Thailand and we speak Thai here ! I like him live with Thai people, there is no farang around my house, I speak Thai everyday its not perfect (fluent) but I can talk about everything and they understand me, what more do I want ? sure it does make a difference what Thai you speak just as it would make a difference what part of England you came from, I came from the south of England my English is far different from somebody comming from Manchester or Bolton but I do understand them ( most of the time anyway ) as for speaking the Queens English or Bangkok Thai, leave that to the ones that worry about it.

[Tarragona]

Its a good idea to learn when and where (and with who) to use the Thai you know

Indeed.

And although it's perhaps not directly related to 'fluency' as such, it's perhaps worth considering that an 'advanced' user of the language should be able to adjust their register and language use to suit different situations and people - just as we all do in own first languages.

[Naam]

I believe we have here a slight misunderstanding about the term 'culture'. The way how i use the term is not limited to classical poetry, court music and advanced philosophy, but the way of life, and thinking of people. Also contemporary culture, youth culture, social and political developments and how people from different sectors view them is culture. For that the only thing required are fluent colloquial skills, not though true fluency.

But one definitely gets a far wider understanding of Thailand if one can directly communicate more than the basic with people who had not the opportunity to learn English (which sadly is the majority of Thais, and it is not exactly their fault), and being able to listen into, and take part in discussions of the more educated when they speak in their own language.

touché! i fully agree with your statement.

[Kyleandco]

Just think about it...how do you feel when someone speaks to you in another language that you don't understand?

I've seen the reactions that I get from thai people when I speak to them in their own tongue, they are so pleased that a ferang has taken the time to learn to communicate with them. On a working level, depending on the type of work your intending to do, it is very much needed.

I worked for 2 years with a company over there and my entire team was made up of thai's it was important that we all understood each other, so I had to learn.

Go on give it a try, you won't regret it.

Chok dee!!!

[GuestHouse]

as for speaking the Queens English or Bangkok Thai, leave that to the ones that worry about it.

There is a world of difference between worrying about this issue, and working the system.

Recognizing the bias towards 'correct Thai' within Thai society and then working to ensure that you and your family have the advantage that 'correct Thai' offers is plain common sense.

[qwertz]

We should also accept that Thailand is a class ridden society and as such, the 'perks' that come with fluency are to a very large extent determined by the language set you are fluent in.

The wrong accent, the wrong dialect, and the wrong phraseology can and does slam doors shut quicker than a howling gale.

Better sometimes to speak no Thai than speak the wrong Thai.

All true. There are people who can't say any thing nice in their mother tongue. This attitude doesn't improve if they learn another language. More important than what you can say is how you say it. My Thai is minimal but I know how to be polite and that opens a lot more doors than linguistic proficiency.

[samran]

But there are times when you do not have a choice. At the immigration office, the employment office, at work, the bank, the police station, the hospital... you name it, if you are interacting with educated Thais the Thai you speak matters.

I tend to speak quite polite Thai. I just don't have it in me to start using goo, mung, even around very close friends (though they'll be quite happy to speak this way with me). Probably a product of spending many summers with Thai relatives who always spoke politely to each other, so it rubbed off.

Speaking this way helps gets things done with a minimum of fuss with officialdom, and it served me well when I worked for government here as well. And while I have a Thai PP, I don't look Thai, so there is no confusing that I am just 'one of them'. There are no secret handshakes and special deals in Thai society to the exclusion of all farangs I as far as I've experienced. Speaking Thai, and speaking a certain way, helps.

In terms of giving insights into Thai culture, well, informally yes. Given status is such an imprtant part of Thai culture, the language used hints at certain things just not plainly visible to the non speaker.

Speaking of little things, I beleive understanding the language also helps you see/hear/feel the issues/politics/personality traits that exist amongst people and work places here. I'm no SNAG (as my wife will tell you - I aint mr sensitive), but the amount of times I've seen situations arise that my Farang collegues don't (and then proceed to walk into and make a hash of it), leads me to beleive that there are certain things which speaking the language helps you detect, and then negotiate.

Sure, you can live, work and prosper here. I have seen plenty of Farangs do that. Many people know a hel_l of a lot more about 'high' Thai cuture and history than I do, by reading books. And that is fine and good luck to them. But I don't know how I'd cope here if I didn't speak the lingo.....