Follow the science....

[Throatwobbler]

6 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

Ah good, you're back.... 

 

Care to follow up on your very strange opening post, by replying to my answer ? Post #4 to refresh your memory ????

Just want to make it clear that on here you have been saying follow the science where as on other threads you have been questioning what the scientists have been saying.

 It seems that you are able to say follow the science when you find someone whose science you agree with but when you don’t agree with what the scientists say you are happy to question it.

[Throatwobbler]

2 minutes ago, BeltAndRoad said:

If Neil Degrasse Tyson is considered a scientist then the very definition of science has become contaminated. 

Where an Earth did I mention Neil Degrasse Tyson? Nice try at deflection.

[cornishcarlos]

3 minutes ago, chessman said:

In the video the doctor talks a lot about how the health authorities agree with him but it turns out they don't.

 

A few people keep claiming this but when I ask them to post up some relevant videos, so we can see another angle, they don't !!

[BeltAndRoad]

2 minutes ago, Throatwobbler said:

Where an Earth did I mention Neil Degrasse Tyson? Nice try at deflection.

It's "Where on Earth" At least Neil would have known this.

[cornishcarlos]

7 minutes ago, Throatwobbler said:

Just want to make it clear that on here you have been saying follow the science where as on other threads you have been questioning what the scientists have been saying.

 It seems that you are able to say follow the science when you find someone whose science you agree with but when you don’t agree with what the scientists say you are happy to question it.

 

Ok, firstly "follow the science" is just the main topic of the video I posted. I wasn't actually telling you or anyone else to do that. It's a topic heading...

Secondly, yes I will always question things that I don't feel are right, even if it is by a scientist. Guess what, if a "mechanic" does something on my car that I'm not happy with, I'll question that too.

Thirdly, thank you for being a bit more respectful in your post. You see, there is no need for childish name calling.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by cornishcarlos

[steelepulse]

Another Dr giving stats.  Believe it or not, up to you.  This is a 4 minute video.  At the end he comes to the conclusion that the mortality rate is .1%  

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjS1HpA-Q48&

[scubascuba3]

This "follow the science" quote we keep hearing, bin it and instead follow the economics and enable people to get their lives back

[chessman]

20 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

A few people keep claiming this but when I ask them to post up some relevant videos, so we can see another angle, they don't !!

It’s a short, not very interesting video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhxAIOhCPHQ

 

the doctors claim that public health officials support him. They deny this. Dr Eriksson then walks back his quotes that claimed this support.

[Peter Denis]

19 minutes ago, CGW said:

Is it, watch the video and then tell me that!

https://www.foxnews.com/media/youtube-will-remove-content-goes-against-world-health-organization-recommendations-ceo-says

>>> I reacted on your claim that YouTube only features 'approved' videos.

 

13 hours ago, CGW said:

...

YouTube disallow any "news" or possible treatments for CV19 that hasn't been "approved" by "WHO" yes Bill Gates mob! another criminal act against humanity!

...

That statement is notably incorrect, as the video with those 2 doctors challenging the 'common narrative' is available on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU

 

Also I don't need FoxNews to be aware that Trump and the WHO are not on the same page.

It is a very complicated issue, and when doctors mix their medical knowledge/experience with political beliefs you get a toxic cocktail of fact and fiction.

[Throatwobbler]

26 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

Ok, firstly "follow the science" is just the main topic of the video I posted. I wasn't actually telling you or anyone else to do that. It's a topic heading...

Secondly, yes I will always question things that I don't feel are right, even if it is by a scientist. Guess what, if a "mechanic" does something on my car that I'm not happy with, I'll question that too.

Thirdly, thank you for being a bit more respectful in your post. You see, there is no need for childish name calling.

 

 

I do apologize for that yesterday.

[Throatwobbler]

29 minutes ago, BeltAndRoad said:

It's "Where on Earth" At least Neil would have known this.

I am sorry for my mistake. I doff my cap to your superiority.

[cornishcarlos]

8 minutes ago, chessman said:

It’s a short, not very interesting video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhxAIOhCPHQ

 

the doctors claim that public health officials support him. They deny this. Dr Eriksson then walks back his quotes that claimed this support.

 

Yes, very short but it would seem to be some conflict between what he (Dr Erickson) claimed and what the representative responded with.

I did watch his eyes in the video, and when being questioned about that actual claim, he does look a bit twitchy ????

[cornishcarlos]

2 minutes ago, Throatwobbler said:

I do apologize for that yesterday.

 

No worries... Forums are for sharing, venting, ranting, laughing... 

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

It's not only that, the person i was talking to today, is afraid to end up in jail for protesting, afraid of heavy fines for going out, and afraid about the state of the economy. And for the future in general.. A total mess.

I really hope that somebody will be held accountable for all this s**t.

I'm looking forward to our dear leader being held accountable for ruining so many lives. Whatever happens re the virus, so many are facing ruin. Thank goodness I'm on a pension.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

It is a very complicated issue, and when doctors mix their medical knowledge/experience with political beliefs you get a toxic cocktail of fact and fiction.

Yes. I really wish our politicians got their advice from as many Drs and scientists as possible, and not just the ones that align with their opinions. Unfortunately, politicians are the ones calling the shots when it's a medical problem that we are facing. Viruses are apolitical.

[chessman]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

Honestly, being a bit confused by the events as many of us, i have conflicting thoughts, and i really hope that you are right.

Yet, the stubborn disposition of the politicians and the media makes me fear for the worst.

I wish i was confident as you seem to be.

Both in Thailand and Italy, around 20% , if not more, of the population is relying on tourism, restaurants and pubs for a living, it seems that this kind of business is wiped out for the next few years.

This will be very hard on a lot of people. But it is not purely making a choice between lives and the economy. Restaurant attendance was massively down in the USA before states issued ‘shelter in place’ orders. In Sweden, there are few legal constraints but Easter holiday trips were down 95% compared to a normal year. Thailand or Italy is not going to be able to resurrect their tourism industry by simply lifting lockdowns. It’s not going to happen until people feel safe and confident, so the question is how can you achieve that? 
 

That’s why I wrote ‘Make sure you are doing enough testing, make sure you are clearly past your peak, open up slowly and have the capacity to test and contact trace the inevitable new outbreaks’. 


 

[sucit]

54 minutes ago, Throatwobbler said:

Just want to make it clear that on here you have been saying follow the science where as on other threads you have been questioning what the scientists have been saying.

 It seems that you are able to say follow the science when you find someone whose science you agree with but when you don’t agree with what the scientists say you are happy to question it.

What many are failing to admit, even scientists sometimes, is that there is no science. 

 

We do not know for certain if lockdowns work.

We don't even know for certain if ventilators work.

 

What we do know is lockdowns and high unemployment kills. 

 

That does not mean I have all the answers, but it does mean that we should admit to ourselves, the science basically says at this point that politicians are guessing with your life. That is right, guessing. 

 

I posted a scientific paper earlier that states the worst place you can possibly be right now is..... home! Outside in the sun is the best. This is what science is saying! 

 

Again, I have no answers, but my main problem is so many are assuming lockdowns are working. But, there should be a very healthy discussion about all this and about plans to reopen, and when and how it should happen. 

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.04.20053058v1

Edited April 26, 2020 by sucit

[Bluetongue]

Surely we could all agree that the science, medical research (whatever you want to call it) is evolving, as more data is collected, as more treatment is given, as more boffins play with it in the lab etc. What (to me) doesn't seem to be evolving, at least in the same way is the nature of the reaction, lockdown etc. It has evolved into a partisan argument where one side is digging in and the other getting more impatient. I personally am not going to blame the medical advisers or the politicians for going hard based on what was known at the start. But I think there is an element of hesitancy, and only partly rational fear, about taking too many large steps from here into what is still partly unknown. My personal interest stems from timing, when can I buy beer, when should I buy shares, when can I travel to do some work and catch up with other family and friends. Not likely for a few months at least. And I shudder now I see 2022 figuring on predictions and every time I hear "new normal". I am greatly worried about the long suffering Thai people, my lot here seem to be doing alright and I'll feed them if they need it.

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, chessman said:

That’s why I wrote ‘Make sure you are doing enough testing, make sure you are clearly past your peak, open up slowly and have the capacity to test and contact trace the inevitable new outbreaks’. 

Look, millions of people are already on the brink, do you think they will eat what, while they are increasingly harassed by this scientific dictatorship ?

I don't believe the tests anyway, one reason being, it's apparently possible to heal from the contagion and get infected again. We know already that huge numbers have been infected, and healthy people have not much to worry.

No, sorry, you are not going anywhere dragging on this show, instead a massive economic relief plan has to start immediately, or else.

[LomSak27]

19 hours ago, UbonThani said:

been saying for 6 weeks i dont believe it will kill more than swine flu

 

In 1 year the swine flu killed 12,469.

In two months Wuhan virus has killed 53,928
                                                                           (US#stats)

 

Statistically Wuhan has killed over four times as many people in less than a sixth of the time as swine flu. Get a more lethal virus if you want to make comparisons.  

[chessman]

19 minutes ago, sucit said:

What we do know is lockdowns and high unemployment kills. 

Some food for thought as you seem interested in what we definitively ‘know’ and ‘don’t know’

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/study-recessions-unemployment-mortality-rates-2015-10

[chessman]

5 minutes ago, LomSak27 said:

In 1 year the swine flu killed 12,469.

In two months Wuhan virus has killed 53,928
                                                                           (US#stats)

Stats like these are interesting. The stats calculated day-by-day during the virus are always relatively low. Then later researchers do adjustments based on year-on-year mortality. When this was done with swine flu the number of estimated deaths rose dramatically. 
 

it is likely we will see something similar with Covid 19,  a lot of people are dying in care homes and their homes and not being tested. There is already strong evidence that this is happening in the UK, northern Italy and Indonesia.
 

 

 

[uwe_rayong]

15 hours ago, Yinn said:

Thailand deaths per million .7,

infection 42 per million. 

Wear the mask.

Think Australia and Thailand will be ok soon. Two more weeks? Lucky.

 

Belgium 3,911 per million, death 597 per million. 

 

Europe/USA/SouthnAmerica/Indonesia will be problem 2+ month.

Italy lockdown long time already. Still about 500 die everyday.

 

 

2 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

83% of the deaths in Italy were 70yrs old and up allegedly... 

Chances of the majority of them having an underlying health issue is quite high.

 

Italy has tested every person that died within the last couple of weeks for Covid 19. If a 83 year old person, with a history of two strokes and diabetes was tested positive it counted as a "Covid 19" victim.

 

Now we see that 54% of the people that died have been 80 years or older.

If you add the group of "70 -79 years" you'll  get 84%. Pre-existing  illnesses are not the exception but the norm in this age group.

 

 

1.) If a person is 80 years, it is just more likely that they will die. That is one of the reasons a life insurance can get quite expensive or difficult to get , once one reached 80 years.????

2.) The Covid 19 tests on people that died recently, only confirms that they been infected with the virus. It does not proof that they died because of the virus, just with the virus.

 

So of course, some of those in the group of 84% (70 years or older) may have lived another couple of weeks, month or some may even years  and now they departed more early then absolutely necessary. but are the dramatic and draconian restrictions really worth effort the whole world puts in effect since several weeks and are we all ready to extend this for the next couple of month or years ? The situation will not change. 
Covid 19 can not be stopped by now, the cat is out of the box.

Only a vaccine , herd immunity or a very effective medication to cure the sick, could end this.

 

If the numbers in Thailand are only somewhat accurate (by that I mean, even if in realty 300%-400% more infections are existing in Thailand) it is still very low compared to other countries.

What happens when Thailand reopen the borders again ?

The visiting age group of 0-50 years are may infected with covid 19, and often totally asymptomatic!

That means they not feel sick, not have fever but still are Infectious, especially in the early stage (day 1-4) of the infection.

So, once the borders are open, Thailand will probably get a second wave of infections. It is inevitable. 

 

It can only be slowed down but not be stopped. 

 

Is it worth to sacrifice our way of live? 

Sacrifice our freedom? 

Kill the economy. Force millions of people to beg for alms. 

Millions of people lose there jobs, can't pay there rent, have to send there children hungry to bed and can't pay the school fees.

 

In my opinion the price we pay to extend the live of the most vulnerable persons, is too high. 

 

This is the "new normal" :

 

 

 

 

Flu Season in Thailand 2017 - 60321 person died of influenza and pneumonia. Source WHO / worldlifeexpectancy:

 

 

So if one compares the Covid 19 situation in Italy in 2020 (one of the worst affected countries) with the flu season 2017 in Thailand, Thailand had about 230% more fatalities in 2017 because of the flu.  Thailand may has something like 15% more population, but health care systems is not as high developed as in Italy.

 

In 2018 - 18000 people died of HIV in Thailand / source avert.org. Nobody was really interested in that....

 

 

But now: 

 

 

Songkran 2019 - 174 people died in the first three days in traffic accidents.

 

In my opinion is the price we pay, to extend the live of the most vulnerable people, too high.

 

 

[chessman]

24 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

harassed by this scientific dictatorship ?

On a thread called ‘follow the science’ you are now claiming this? 

[zhounan]

I agree. But I wonder what science is now? It seems a new religion, a priestly clergy, a new kind of Inquisition that threatens all those who are not aligned. Actually, this new science seems rather fascist.
This behaviour is very dangerous, especially not knowing what relations they have with big pharmaceutical companies and private investors.
I remind you that Science wanted to burn Galileo Galilei at the stake because he had proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not the other way around. Nobody wanted to put an eye inside his telescope. 

 

I think common sense is extremely important, we don't want a fascist scientific clergy, do we?

[scubascuba3]

The lockdown approach just isn't sustainable anyway, if we get another virus next year no country can afford or will do another lockdown

[chessman]

18 minutes ago, uwe_rayong said:

In my opinion is the price we pay, to extend the live of the most vulnerable people, too high.

You argue your point well, certainly if a lockdown extends for a long time then I will agree.

 

but how about a short lockdown to prepare our medical systems, to improve our capacity to test, to learn more about how this virus spreads and how deadly it is. A lot of European countries are already beginning to open up.

 

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

this is one of the most interesting and convincing cases for a (short) lockdown I have read.

Edited April 26, 2020 by chessman

[mauGR1]

9 minutes ago, zhounan said:

I wonder what science is now? It seems a new religion, a priestly clergy, a new kind of Inquisition that threatens all those who are not aligned. Actually, this new science seems rather fascist.
This behaviour is very dangerous, especially not knowing what relations they have with big pharmaceutical companies and private investors.

We know enough to be extremely suspicious of the whole lot.

[LomSak27]

 

7 minutes ago, uwe_rayong said:

In my opinion is the price we pay, to extend the live of the most vulnerable people, too high.

 

The term you are searching for; "Lebensunwertes Leben"

 

1 minute ago, zhounan said:

I remind you that Science wanted to burn Galileo Galilei at the stake because he had proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not the other way around. Nobody wanted to put an eye inside his telescope. 

Fake history now.  ????  Galileo was the scientist. The religious and political leaders of the day wanted him silenced or dead. 

 

3 minutes ago, zhounan said:

Actually, this new science seems rather fascist.

We live in the 2nd great age of nationalism. There are Very Fascist people and leaders in the world today. People who would like nothing better than to make life or death decisions for everyone. Scientists, naw, just read a bunch of these posts. With friends like these you don't need enemies,

[Rancid]

Hmm. I can dish up piles of experts saying its the end of civilization and another pile saying its little worse than the flu, albeit more infectious. So if the experts can't agree then how can the public? Since when did politicians ever get anything right?

 

The data can be bent in all directions to support either view, the reality is that the data should be straight forward and incontrovertible, why isn't it? Then of course always best to look at these experts, who have they been taking money from, are they being paid for their opinion, do they have a dog in this fight?

 

The media here has had viewership (and ad revenue) go up with the nonstop doom-porn, and this while we are yet to have a single death under 50yo. This is the same media with a long history of lying. My view is that it is nasty but didn't merit lock down, however I may be proven wrong. That aside my view changes nothing anyway.