Thais Embark On Native Missile Programme: Jane's

[Ijustwannateach]

Since it's vaguely related to this thread, here's a new article from Yahoo about the state of the space race in Asia.

[richard10365]

As a former Patriot Missile System reparier (27X), I think if the USA can build a missile to hit another missile then designing one to hit a plane can't be that hard.

You should talk to a former repairer of Russian SAMs who failed to hit much of anything in either gulf war, despite many of them being state of the art in the first round.

I'm not sure what your trying to say. Russian SAMs didn't hit much of anything or the Patriot didn't hit anything? Trail and error is how things work. Patriot did hit targets.

The gulf war it was used in was over a decade ago. The Patriot Missile System is like a large computer. Imagine a computer over a decade ago and imagine it today and think about the upgrades that have happened since then.

The Patriot didn't happen overnight. The US has been working the concept since the 1960s.

On 15 October 1964 The Secretary of Defense directed that the Army Air Defense System for the 1970s (AADS-70s) program name be changed to Surface-to-Air Missile, Development (SAM-D). 1975 SAM-D successfully engaged a drone at the White Sands Missile Range. In 1976, it was renamed the PATRIOT Air Defense Missile System. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot)

Will it take Thailand over 10 years to engage their first drone? Who knows. I do know if they never start then they will never reach their goal.

Edited April 15, 2007 by richard10365

[richard10365]

Thailand does have the skill base to do these things. What they might be lacking in is the leadership to accomplish this.

No it doesn't.

Speculation. There are enough high tech capable students out there in excellent universities who only need to be recruited and taught to do the job.

No it isn't speculation. Even India is lightyears ahead in these fields. Facts I'm afraid.

Speculation, you can't possibly know where and why the vast majorities of Thai engineers and scientist are located in the world.

It's basic economics and common sense, not guesswork! The most skilled Thai engineers and scientists either work overseas or for foreign companies. Not all of them obviously, but the cream of the crop certainly. There's a significant chance they were educated and given those opportunities abroad also.

Thailand seems to be able to copy HIV drugs from other countries. I'd imagine this is no small feat. There are more than 70 million Thai's here in Thailand. To think they are all rice farmers is a bit narrow minded. It wouldn't be too difficult to grab the best Thai minds and put them in a think tank to create a weapons system. If they are able to create a better product, then I can see Thailand in a business showdown selling their product to the rest of the world.

Nice strawman argument there claiming I said all Thais were nothing more than rice farmers which of course I did not imply. I said there is cheap labour in certain sectors but not in high tech fields to the degree that a project of the magnitude you are suggesting could be successfully undertaken. Thailand does not have the resources of highly skilled labour to compete in these fields against the existing players. A simple fact.

Your assumption that Thailand would be able to compete within this industry shows so little understanding or knowledge of said industry it would be almost impossible to debate with you.

Sorry mate, I don't mean to sound condascending but it is a laughable fantasy.

Not sure how I can argue with such an expert on Thailand that you seem to be (or think you are). Being a former Patriot Missile System Reparier and Patriot Instructor my knowledge on the subject are probably not as good as yours (whatever it may be). Also, being a detailed U.S. Army recruiter, I'm sure my expierence recruiting high quality candidates for highly technical military professions cannot compete with where you think all the really smart people are in or out of Thailand and what they are doing.

It wouldn't be that difficult to recruit the skill base needed for a project like this as long as the funds were avaliable to entice them to do the job.

Your arguments are based on speculation and not fact. Mine are based on expierence and fact.

[PeaceBlondie]

There must be at least a few world-class unis in Thailand (Chula, Thamasat, etc).

Not necessarily. Not by all the ranking institutions in the world. Ask a Western engineer the top schools. See where those Thai unis rank compared to MIT, Stanford, Rice, Georgia Tech, Texas A&M-College Station. Even Rensaleer Polytechnic. Nowhere near world-class. And I only mentioned a few engineering schools I know in the States.

[cm-happy]

So now, we're going to have Thai rocket scientists!! 5555555555. Maybe they'll turn Sav airport into their own testing range. Might as well use it for something. Or perhaps thats why Russians can enter without a visa. Use the Russian unemployed talent & expertise now that the cold war is over.

[cdnvic]

I'm not sure what your trying to say. Russian SAMs didn't hit much of anything or the Patriot didn't hit anything? Trail and error is how things work. Patriot did hit targets.

No, I was using the example of how the Russian SAMs, some of which were the latest designs, failed to provide an effective defense against even B-52s and older aircraft, let alone newer designs. The Russians have an aerospace industry with years of experience, Thailand has no real aerospace industry and would be in a tail chase just to catch up to the stuff that wasn't working for the Iraqis years ago.

[cdnvic]

Use the Russian unemployed talent & expertise now that the cold war is over.

They'd be smart to do that if they proceed with this dubious plan. After all, success in the American and Russian rocketry field was pretty dismal until they captured some Germans.

Edited April 15, 2007 by cdnvic

[richard10365]

I'm not sure what your trying to say. Russian SAMs didn't hit much of anything or the Patriot didn't hit anything? Trail and error is how things work. Patriot did hit targets.

No, I was using the example of how the Russian SAMs, some of which were the latest designs, failed to provide an effective defense against even B-52s and older aircraft, let alone newer designs. The Russians have an aerospace industry with years of experience, Thailand has no real aerospace industry and would be in a tail chase just to catch up to the stuff that wasn't working for the Iraqis years ago.

I do agree it would be quite a challenge for them create a missile defense. The benefit for Thailand is there is a lot of existing technology that is freely avaliable that they won't have struggle to get. In other words, they won't have to reinvent the wheel.

As Thailand progresses along in this endevor, offshoots of Thai technological advances will start to appear on the shelves across Thailand and the world. Look at all the civilian applications that are in use today that came from U.S. military defense programs ( the internet being one of them )

http://net.gurus.com/history/.

It would be an investment for Thailand if they were to do this.

Just a note cdnvic: I know you know your way around a computer. The link is not to educate you but others who may be reading this post.

Edited April 15, 2007 by richard10365

[jasreeve17]

There must be at least a few world-class unis in Thailand (Chula, Thamasat, etc).

Not necessarily. Not by all the ranking institutions in the world. Ask a Western engineer the top schools. See where those Thai unis rank compared to MIT, Stanford, Rice, Georgia Tech, Texas A&M-College Station. Even Rensaleer Polytechnic. Nowhere near world-class. And I only mentioned a few engineering schools I know in the States.

I studied a Beng electronic engineer degree in London and have worked in many different countries. I now work in Thailand, and have worked with Chula engineers (masters, PHD...) as well as many other Thai engineers (many from Khon Kaen).

The education system here is awful. I doubt, if any Thai educated Masters degree student would be able to complete the first year studies of an average UK university Beng elec eng course.

I've met many Thais with great academic ability, but it cannot be realised through the Thai education system.

Sorry, if you don't like my words, but it's my honest opinion - the locals have ability, but the teaching environment (including the very top places) are very poor.

Thai trained Thais cannot build a missile system to compete with US / UK / Soviet systems. To suggest otherwise is insanity.

(Us trained Thais working within a US corporate environment could be excellent additions to a missile development program, I'm sure. - but it's a very different thing.)

Richard 10365 - I don't think that you have strong knowledge of the Thai education systems and how the "make bold claim / can't do it - but pretend we can, til everyone forgets what we claimed" system here works.

Your thoughts are romantic, but the Thais have zero experience in this high-tech war mongering World (which is of course a good thing).

They cannot build their own missile system.

If they did, who would buy it? Locally, you'd have options from China, India, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Pakistan - but you'd buy Thai??? Are you sure?

[chownah]

Use the Russian unemployed talent & expertise now that the cold war is over.

Great, the Russian mafia will be running the Thai missile program.......

[Ijustwannateach]

It's an unfair generalisation to say that Thai students would be universally unable to pass foreign grad school programs or to function in a foreign research environment- I know several personally who have. The odds are against them with this awful no-pass system, but a few students manage to get themselves a good education nevertheless (and that's not only the ones who are in international schools or schools abroad). If I felt my job were hopeless, I'd get a different one.

[jasreeve17]

It's an unfair generalisation to say that Thai students would be universally unable to pass foreign grad school programs or to function in a foreign research environment- I know several personally who have. The odds are against them with this awful no-pass system, but a few students manage to get themselves a good education nevertheless (and that's not only the ones who are in international schools or schools abroad). If I felt my job were hopeless, I'd get a different one.

I'm sorry Steven but I'm less optimistic than you are. The Thai education system is not set up to teach or to encourage the search for knowledge. That includes Chulalongkorn, which is far above the other universities. Even if your heart is in the right place, you are fighting a losing battle and will make zero impact on the Thai education system.

I stick to my example. Having mixed with Chula masters engineering students at a teaching, social and business level, I have never met one that I'd employ. And, I doubt if any of them could go to a Western university and pass at a lower degree level.

I agree that Thais have ability and can be exceptional in a foreign environment (most do not due to their time spent in the Thai system).

Thailand does not have the capability to make a missile system, of note.

[bkkandrew]

Thailand does have the skill base to do these things. What they might be lacking in is the leadership to accomplish this.

No it doesn't.

Speculation. There are enough high tech capable students out there in excellent universities who only need to be recruited and taught to do the job.

No it isn't speculation. Even India is lightyears ahead in these fields. Facts I'm afraid.

Speculation, you can't possibly know where and why the vast majorities of Thai engineers and scientist are located in the world.

It's basic economics and common sense, not guesswork! The most skilled Thai engineers and scientists either work overseas or for foreign companies. Not all of them obviously, but the cream of the crop certainly. There's a significant chance they were educated and given those opportunities abroad also.

Thailand seems to be able to copy HIV drugs from other countries. I'd imagine this is no small feat. There are more than 70 million Thai's here in Thailand. To think they are all rice farmers is a bit narrow minded. It wouldn't be too difficult to grab the best Thai minds and put them in a think tank to create a weapons system. If they are able to create a better product, then I can see Thailand in a business showdown selling their product to the rest of the world.

Nice strawman argument there claiming I said all Thais were nothing more than rice farmers which of course I did not imply. I said there is cheap labour in certain sectors but not in high tech fields to the degree that a project of the magnitude you are suggesting could be successfully undertaken. Thailand does not have the resources of highly skilled labour to compete in these fields against the existing players. A simple fact.

Your assumption that Thailand would be able to compete within this industry shows so little understanding or knowledge of said industry it would be almost impossible to debate with you.

Sorry mate, I don't mean to sound condascending but it is a laughable fantasy.

Not sure how I can argue with such an expert on Thailand that you seem to be (or think you are). Being a former Patriot Missile System Reparier and Patriot Instructor my knowledge on the subject are probably not as good as yours (whatever it may be). Also, being a detailed U.S. Army recruiter, I'm sure my expierence recruiting high quality candidates for highly technical military professions cannot compete with where you think all the really smart people are in or out of Thailand and what they are doing.

It wouldn't be that difficult to recruit the skill base needed for a project like this as long as the funds were avaliable to entice them to do the job.

Your arguments are based on speculation and not fact. Mine are based on expierence and fact.

Just what the thread needs- an ex/present/future, CIA/FBI/Secret Service, Special unit/undercover/underpants, gung-ho yank spouting off...

[kayo]

Just what the thread needs- an ex/present/future, CIA/FBI/Secret Service, Special unit/undercover/underpants, gung-ho yank spouting off...

well hang on a sec... It might be an idea you know, one that hasn;t been tried before...

an a bunch of ex/present/future, CIA/FBI/Secret Service, Special unit/undercover/underpants, gung-ho yank in Thailand, get them involving themselves in domestic affairs, maybe call themselves consular operations.

They could help Thais develop their own missiles, armaments etc... maybe provide a bit for free as well.

Then they could prop up some puppet to take over the nation who would of course have only the best interests at play...

Best interests for whom? of course, as the result would be the ol' predictable "then they could come back ten years later to take down said puppet" etc etc etc....

PS> not intended as a dig at richard at all. Just a general stereotypical lighthearted ironic comment is all. I've a forum rep to protect an' all.

Edited April 15, 2007 by kayo

[chownah]

I don't really know if Thailand has the ability to develop a missile or not. We could make a judgement on this based on Thailand's track record for developing major technical research and engineering projects. Can anyone name some major research and engineering projects that have been developed by Thailand?.....I can't think of any but maybe there are some or is one. If there are none then this doesn't give me confidence that a missile system is a realisitic possibility. Anyone know of any they have successfully completed so far?

If you were going to hire someone to develop a missile for you wouldn't you want to see a list of projects they had successfully completed before you handed over the money?

Edited April 15, 2007 by chownah

[jasreeve17]

I don't really know if Thailand has the ability to develop a missile or not. We could make a judgement on this based on Thailand's track record for developing major technical research and engineering projects. Can anyone name some major research and engineering projects that have been developed by Thailand?.....I can't think of any but maybe there are some or is one. If there are none then this doesn't give me confidence that a missile system is a realisitic possibility. Anyone know of any they have successfully completed so far?

If you were going to hire someone to develop a missile for you wouldn't you want to see a list of projects they had successfully completed before you handed over the money?

Stop trying to use reason Chownah, you tried it earlier in this thread and it didn't work then either.

TiT.

[Thai-Spy]

I don't really know if Thailand has the ability to develop a missile or not. We could make a judgement on this based on Thailand's track record for developing major technical research and engineering projects. Can anyone name some major research and engineering projects that have been developed by Thailand?.....I can't think of any but maybe there are some or is one. If there are none then this doesn't give me confidence that a missile system is a realisitic possibility. Anyone know of any they have successfully completed so far?

If you were going to hire someone to develop a missile for you wouldn't you want to see a list of projects they had successfully completed before you handed over the money?

For that matter are there enough qualified specialists being produced by Thailand to even staff this project? Or toss out the word qualified; are there even enough warm bodies with degrees? Keep in mind that with no similar project currently underway (except some explosives work which can be adapted to warheads), everything has to be built from scratch. The brain-drain on more profitable endeavours would be frightful and only serve to set back overall economic development.

[richard10365]

Being an army recruiter gave me a real opportunity take talentless Americans that have absolutely no skills, a 12th grade education (sometimes GED), and find them jobs where they were trained and assigned to a duty positions doing a job they never did before.

With the right leadership and training, Thailand can produce a missile system.

I don't disagree with all the comments about the bad Thai educational system. I know it needs a lot of work. I also know people can be educated and trained.

Part of building their missile system could be to identify academically talented children place them in special schools to help develop their academic gift.

We don't know what Thailand will do to accomplish this task. At this point, most people are assuming Thailand will do this the same way it was done in the west. Another words, people are guessing what Thailand will do in the future. Keep in mind, this is Thailand and they might do things differently.

Sure there are people who have had expierence with Thai's who on paper were super qualified but performed well below standard. I'm sure there are people who know westerners who are super qualified but performed well below standard as well.

There are over 30 million working adults in Thailand. To assume they are all morons incapable of doing anything constructive such as build a missile system is absurd.

I'm sure Thailand has people who can put this together. They just need to be found, recruited and pointed in the right direction.

[Clipped]

Missiles are worthless against insurgents. Are they going to use the missles to solve the southern insurgent problem?

Thailand has some good engineers.....too bad neither of them worked on the new airport.

yeah too bad....if they didnt let a foreigner design the structure im sure it wouldve been alot better.

[jasreeve17]

Being an army recruiter gave me a real opportunity take talentless Americans that have absolutely no skills, a 12th grade education (sometimes GED), and find them jobs where they were trained and assigned to a duty positions doing a job they never did before.

With the right leadership and training, Thailand can produce a missile system.

I don't disagree with all the comments about the bad Thai educational system. I know it needs a lot of work. I also know people can be educated and trained.

Part of building their missile system could be to identify academically talented children place them in special schools to help develop their academic gift.

We don't know what Thailand will do to accomplish this task. At this point, most people are assuming Thailand will do this the same way it was done in the west. Another words, people are guessing what Thailand will do in the future. Keep in mind, this is Thailand and they might do things differently.

Sure there are people who have had expierence with Thai's who on paper were super qualified but performed well below standard. I'm sure there are people who know westerners who are super qualified but performed well below standard as well.

There are over 30 million working adults in Thailand. To assume they are all morons incapable of doing anything constructive such as build a missile system is absurd.

I'm sure Thailand has people who can put this together. They just need to be found, recruited and pointed in the right direction.

Richard,

You make some nice points. But others must be tounge in cheek.

What will the Thais do? - They will put their family members in key positions, well trained and high ability individuals will go to the back of the line...

Thailand will never produce a missile system because they will never have the right leadership and training.

Give it up mate. The grand national is over and your hourse fell at beaches. Throw that ticket in the bin...

[bkkandrew]

Being an army recruiter gave me a real opportunity take talentless Americans that have absolutely no skills, a 12th grade education (sometimes GED), and find them jobs where they were trained and assigned to a duty positions doing a job they never did before.

God does he go on...

I think a movie is in order - Richard can star as Rambo, Rocky, the whole Mission Impossible team, XXX and now - Kindergarten Cop!!!

[bkkandrew]

Hark - what can I hear?? Its the trainaing montage - Richard is gearing up:

rocky.bmp

Edited April 15, 2007 by bkkandrew

[richard10365]

Hark - what can I hear?? Its the trainaing montage - Richard is gearing up:

rocky.bmp

Grow up Andrew.