Do All You Farmers Have Work Permits ?

[undercover]

Just reading through the farming section, most of you seem to be working away plauging fields, making pig pens, putting up fences, taking livestock to market ect ect,

It sounds like your doing this work yourselves ? is it because its out in the sticks that you feel the law is turning a blind eye to farang working ? or have you all got working permits ? just seems strange with all we read on here.

[Tim207]

Just reading through the farming section, most of you seem to be working away plauging fields, making pig pens, putting up fences, taking livestock to market ect ect,

It sounds like your doing this work yourselves ? is it because its out in the sticks that you feel the law is turning a blind eye to farang working ? or have you all got working permits ? just seems strange with all we read on here.

Seeing as farming is a restricted occupation that you can not do even with a work permit I would guess that few here have one. On the other hand you can supervise workers and your family can obviously engage in farming. Anytime you read "I" or "we" you should assume that it is meant figuratively and that the actual activity is carried out by people with the legal authorization to do said activity.

I hope that answers your question.

[Lickey]

Most of us are retired and bored at times, so we go to the family farm to do something, weeding, plant new salad, pick fruit prepare for market ect,irrigation, all sorts of things, any revenue made my missus looks after.

If i could get a "ill do it when i feel like it, in my own part time work permit" i would..

[Pescator]

I think you could easily rephrase your question: does any of you farmers have work permit?

[Lickey]

2 posters asking the same question, does that mean we are are going to get our collars felt? tinkering about on the farm is a hobby for me, do i need a WP for a hobby?

[Maizefarmer]

As Lickey says - most guys are running small plots/projects to support themeselves and their partners - they are not running registered businesses.

The authorities have no vested interest in pursueing ex-pats on "technicalities" who do a bit on the side to support their families out in rural areas. It's a different matter though if you formalise your activites through a regsitered buisness - you do then up the scrutiny odd's, and it usualy starts from a fiscal/tax perspective (i.e. what is the company doing, what income is been generated, how is it been generated,who works for the company ect ect .....).

To answer Pescator's question - speaking for myself: yes, I have always had a work permitt and the farm runs as a Thai registered company owned off-shore (under the terms of the Treaty of Amity). I am the owner of the business (Treaty of Amity permitts 100% foreign ownership). The land is owned by my children - through an offshore trust structure, which I am a trustee of (along with the missus).

Does my work permitt say I can drive a tractor to plough land, or milk my cows, or drive my combine harvester. No - it does not, but it does allow me to train and supervise my staff in these tasks - and if that takes 20 years to do, then so be it ..... I guess if someone wanted to make a point out of it they could. It's never happened in 20 years and I see no reason why it would happen now.

I have never had a problem along these lines. I partly put that down to employing professionals who make sure the T's are crossed and the I's are dotted (taxes are paid, bills are paid ectect ...) - but most importantly, I put it down to "maintaining good relationships with the community" I and my wife live in (you can read into that what you wish).

MF

Edited April 14, 2007 by Maizefarmer

[undercover]

Thanks for the replys, I see what you mean it could take 20 years to explain how to drive a tractor and your only showing him, The reason I asked my question was that some time in the future as I too am getting older I will be thinking about mooving out into the sticks not that I want to start a farm but I do have farm experiance from in my youth when I worked on a dairy farm, so that type of life has an attraction for me, Tractors are what I like, I know the thought of some dithering old fool messing about with a pto shaft is not always a good idear but my mind is still that of a teenager like many old guys here !

[samran]

As Lickey says - most guys are running small plots/projects to support themeselves and their partners - they are not running registered businesses.

The authorities have no vested interest in pursueing ex-pats on "technicalities" who do a bit on the side to support their families out in rural areas. It's a different matter though if you formalise your activites through a regsitered buisness - you do then up the scrutiny odd's, and it usualy starts from a fiscal/tax perspective (i.e. what is the company doing, what income is been generated, how is it been generated,who works for the company ect ect .....).

To answer Pescator's question - speaking for myself: yes, I have always had a work permitt and the farm runs as a Thai registered company owned off-shore (under the terms of the Treaty of Amity). I am the owner of the business (Treaty of Amity permitts 100% foreign ownership). The land is owned by my children - through an offshore trust structure, which I am a trustee of (along with the missus).

Does my work permitt say I can drive a tractor to plough land, or milk my cows, or drive my combine harvester. No - it does not, but it does allow me to train and supervise my staff in these tasks - and if that takes 20 years to do, then so be it ..... I guess if someone wanted to make a point out of it they could. It's never happened in 20 years and I see no reason why it would happen now.

I have never had a problem along these lines. I partly put that down to employing professionals who make sure the T's are crossed and the I's are dotted (taxes are paid, bills are paid ectect ...) - but most importantly, I put it down to "maintaining good relationships with the community" I and my wife live in (you can read into that what you wish).

MF

maize,

quick follow up. Do you have PR here in Thailand, if so, does that help the WP process in any way from your persepctive?

[C-sip-degree]

Just reading through the farming section, most of you seem to be working away plauging fields, making pig pens, putting up fences, taking livestock to market ect ect,

It sounds like your doing this work yourselves ? is it because its out in the sticks that you feel the law is turning a blind eye to farang working ? or have you all got working permits ? just seems strange with all we read on here.

Undercover

You have a great imagination there, you better get started with your power take off, because where here now making millions of baht (don’t tell anybody).

I think your right with the dithering old fool part thou.

You must be joking Guys, running small plots supporting themselves and their partners.

I think this should be the other way around supporting projects for there partner that inevitably go tits up…wow now that could be a good thread.

Strange you say, well maybe strange is seeing a round eye do all of this work you have read on this.

Crack a cold one open…

Cheers

C-sip

[Maizefarmer]

As Lickey says - most guys are running small plots/projects to support themeselves and their partners - they are not running registered businesses.

The authorities have no vested interest in pursueing ex-pats on "technicalities" who do a bit on the side to support their families out in rural areas. It's a different matter though if you formalise your activites through a regsitered buisness - you do then up the scrutiny odd's, and it usualy starts from a fiscal/tax perspective (i.e. what is the company doing, what income is been generated, how is it been generated,who works for the company ect ect .....).

To answer Pescator's question - speaking for myself: yes, I have always had a work permitt and the farm runs as a Thai registered company owned off-shore (under the terms of the Treaty of Amity). I am the owner of the business (Treaty of Amity permitts 100% foreign ownership). The land is owned by my children - through an offshore trust structure, which I am a trustee of (along with the missus).

Does my work permitt say I can drive a tractor to plough land, or milk my cows, or drive my combine harvester. No - it does not, but it does allow me to train and supervise my staff in these tasks - and if that takes 20 years to do, then so be it ..... I guess if someone wanted to make a point out of it they could. It's never happened in 20 years and I see no reason why it would happen now.

I have never had a problem along these lines. I partly put that down to employing professionals who make sure the T's are crossed and the I's are dotted (taxes are paid, bills are paid ectect ...) - but most importantly, I put it down to "maintaining good relationships with the community" I and my wife live in (you can read into that what you wish).

MF

maize,

quick follow up. Do you have PR here in Thailand, if so, does that help the WP process in any way from your persepctive?

Yes - I have been a PR since the 1980's.

Does a WP help the PR process?

They are 2 seperate procedural issues i.e. in theory you can get PR without a WP history. I don't wish to quote time periods and all that (someone is sure to want to make a correction on some or other point I state - it's all detailed on the Visa & work Permitt threads), however, the overwhelming majority of people who are PR's worked in Thailand for a number of years before applying. Also note: a WP is no assurance that you'll get PR status, though I think the concensus is it certianly ups the anti in your favour.

And the other way round - does PR help the WP process?

In theory, no (again, it's a seperate issue) - inreality, yes - in my experiance over the years I found turning up to get it renewed each time has become nothing more than a paperwork/stamping formality - in & out in a matter of minutes (but on this last point I speak for my myself, not the experiances of others - and I know some people are given a frustrating round around every year)

MF

[frikkiedeboer]

Just reading through the farming section, most of you seem to be working away plauging fields, making pig pens, putting up fences, taking livestock to market ect ect,

It sounds like your doing this work yourselves ? is it because its out in the sticks that you feel the law is turning a blind eye to farang working ? or have you all got working permits ? just seems strange with all we read on here.

Undercover

You have a great imagination there, you better get started with your power take off, because where here now making millions of baht (don't tell anybody).

I think your right with the dithering old fool part thou.

You must be joking Guys, running small plots supporting themselves and their partners.

I think this should be the other way around supporting projects for there partner that inevitably go tits up…wow now that could be a good thread.

Strange you say, well maybe strange is seeing a round eye do all of this work you have read on this.

Crack a cold one open…

Cheers

C-sip

you got that one right! cant tell you how many farang send money to thai wife's relatives to start the "pig farm" when he finally come out on holiday to check what happened to his 200+k, there is always some excuse about the pigs died etc. thai/farang " pig farms" in isaan mostly consist of a pen or two of pigs paid for by the farang and the money he sends over monthly for the feed goes for "laaw khow" or chang.

i"ll go for the tits thing rather than start the small plot farm-at least i get to feel good for the money i wasted-(and it probably costs a lot less,too!) -although the only descent sized tits i found, mostly were artificial!

[SAP]

Just reading through the farming section, most of you seem to be working away plauging fields, making pig pens, putting up fences, taking livestock to market ect ect,

It sounds like your doing this work yourselves ? is it because its out in the sticks that you feel the law is turning a blind eye to farang working ? or have you all got working permits ? just seems strange with all we read on here.

Yes have a WP

And I am sure that maizefarmer will agree, that until Thai education system can start teaching critical thinking. Thailand will be in need for Falung expertise in agriculture.

Each year my job gets easier and easier, but each year there is always still critical decisions that justify my position.

And to the retiree's on their retirement/marriage visa's its just a hobbie.

Good luck with changing that PTO shaft!!!

[Maizefarmer]

mmmmm …. not so sure about the underlying tone to comments regards guys who find themselves looking back on a financial decision they took with respect to a relationship they had with a Thai girl. But yes, there is none-the-less some truth to what is said.

I think a lot of guys fail to appreciate it is an occupation that WILL NOT generate an income to pay a mortgage, to educate the kids, to finance a car, to run a home, to take a holiday and do all the things most Westerners are accustomed to doing – unless a few common sense considerations are bourne in mind.

I have time and time again seen that the house, the car, the start-up capital and everything else, is achieved with funds that formed no part of the ex-pats future intentioned or planned spending – but occurs on the basis of a relationship, which if the same “rules” were applied back home in their own country, they wouldn’t dream of getting themselves into. Unless the partners can BOTH discipline themselves to run the venture with a view to adopting the same financial principals as one would run any business (and the principals are as applicable in Thailand as they are in Western countries) – it becomes a matter of time only before the capital starts to dry up and problems start. It’s what happens when the heart is used to make decisions that should be made with the head. Keep emotions and feelings out of it.

Partners and relationships aside – the idea that any farming venture can or will run successfully with you in your home country, and 3rd parties running it this end for you – is pie in the sky. It will not work – even less so if those entrusted with your funds demonstrate no previous experience. It’s one thing having the idea – it’s a completely different matter making a success of it. On this point, frikkiedeboer is 100% correct.

That’s the second essential ingredient – your presence.

Believe me, whether it’s flower growing, pig farming, chickens, cattle, fish farming – your ongoing (or at the least regular) presence is an ABSOLUTE MUST . In most cases (at least if you want it to be a viable and commercial success so that it returns your capital, never mind any profit over and above that), you are going to find that agriculture is long hours and hard work – in particular if it involves livestock – which stands little chance of been successful in your absence.

Speaking for myself, the first 5 years were 24/7, 365 days a year, It was close on 10 years before I was financially secure and it is only within the last 3 - 4 years that I have got to the point where farm income alone has covered the cost of buying the land, building the house, the cost of equipment, livestock, of bringing up the kids, saving for their education, and been able to generate enough to secure my retirement.

Anyone wanting to secure themselves and their future on an ag based income with anything less than total commitment, a solid business approach, and allowing their heart to make decisions and not their head, stands a fair chance of looking back in a few years regretting what they done.

MF

[undercover]

Maizefarmer. How well said, your comments were a realy good read, I like the part about if it were in their own country they would not even think about it, somehow I can't imagine a guy in England for example being told by another guy that if you set me up in the farming business you dont need to hang around the farm yourself you can stay home and watch tv or go down the pub, me and my family will take care of everything and give you the money every month, Im sure that guy would just laugth at him say something like do you think I was born yesterday then walk away, but out here its, ok then how much do you need !

[Lickey]

Maize has hit the nail on the head!! you just have to be there, being a doddory old retired git with a protruding disc in my lower back, i had a couple of days off from going to the farm, when i did go, the tamarind pickers were there, usually 4 days to do the 50 trees, everywhere they took a break, there was plastic bags,bottles, and polystyrene cartons under the trees, I have an old 45gallon drum for this sort of waste near the farm toilet, the missus translated to them if they didnt take there waste to drum then they could get of site with no wages, their kids runned round the farm and picked up all waste, i gave them 10bht each for doing this, i suppose next time they come, they will leave rubbish again so i will pay kids to clean up, i dont mind, I do like a tidy clean farm, SO you just have to be there!!

I know this post is not much to do with work permits, sorry

[fruity]

Work permits are something I have been giving quite a lot of thought to since moving to Issan last year. Having lived on the Eastern seaboard for over a decade & having had work permits in the past. I am amazed to see so many farang around who are openly & obviously working without permits:obvious, as they are openly engaged in 'protected occupations'. From the guy in the night market who stands behind his stall cooking & making sandwiches to the guy who operates a couple of BIG farms, a feed mill, runs around in a three ton truck delivering etc. I have 'clocked' many more. Good luck to these people, but don't they realise they could be deported? I guess the powers that be are very much more lenient up here, no big farang concentration as in Pattaya for example, with most of us scattered around the place, so no one really taking much notice.

I take care of our Indu Brazil cattle, pigs, fish etc, but, all very much as a hobby, as in most cases.

Off topic, are there any farang interested / keep Indu Brazils? Would be good to know.

[Maizefarmer]

This Work Permit subject in agriculture and farming crops up from time to time oin this forum. So let me share what my take and experience is on this subject – I comment as a self-employed person in the farming industry (al-be-it legally speaking I work for my wife’s company), and also having worked for a large international company which served the farming and ag industry in Thailand (before I started farming).

Hopefully I can put this issue into a context that ex-pats can relate to and can use to help make a decision as to how best to structure activities for the situation you find yourself in. I am not a lawyer, I am not an employment expert, I only speak from the background of practical experience. Take it for what you feel it is worth.

One needs to understand the context in which employment in “protected occupations” legislation was written up in the first place – as a tool to ensure foreigners do not take jobs that Thais would wish to do. As far as farming is concerned, it was specifically drawn up to ensure national food security was not comprised or dominated by foreign interests.

By the same token that same law accommodates (should you read it carefully), and encourages foreign capital and foreign participation is agricultural projects that enhance Thai ag production and efficiency. I’ll cite some examples:

Cargill – one of the world’s largest ag conglomerates, it is the largest ag employment company in Thailand and seedstock producer (in particular maize). It is a foreign company employing foreigners in Thailand in senior management and research positions.

Syngneta – been down to Sygenta Silom office? Has around 6 – 8 Aussie expat staff.

Thai Danish Dairy - no longer, but until a few years back the largest dairy farming organisation in Thailand and dairy product processor – and whose staff compliment included ex-pat geneticists, vets and animal husbandry experts.

These are companies which play a major role in Thai agriculture production – a “protected occupation”. To say that foreigners may not farm is a broad sweeping statement that is not completely true. There is a legal framework in which foreigners can operate, a framework that accommodates them and encourages their input and participation in the ag business – and the above are examples of companies that legally employ ex-pats in the Thai ag industry. As some of you will quite rightly observe – yes, but surely not as tractor drivers, chicken feeders and flower pickers dairy parlour staff!

Correct - but they are, and can be involved directly, and physically in these activities. Not as tractor drivers or cow milkers per say, but as staff who oversee the training of Thai staff, the implementation of good practise, in quality control, stock selection ect ect …. I can think of a dozen examples were ex-pat staff would legally be physically involved at a ground roots level.

The question then is, what would constitute breaking the law, and how would it be determined? A good question, and one which I think goes someway to explaining why I don’t know of any cases in which the book has been thrown at an ex-pat for driving a tractor or milking a cow.

The key here, at least as far as the above examples are concerned, is that the work is been conducted within a legal framework, namely that of a company which has been setup and registered as an agricultural company under Thai law, and that the ex-pat personel hold work permitts which at least broadly defines where and what they can do.

Now contrast this with the average ex-pat who lives out in the country with his partner. Between them they come up with an idea – lets say fish farming.

He puts up the capital. They build some concreate tanks – he helps by helping to mix the cement, or drives the pickup to buy the fish food, or turns the pump on, or helps to catch the fish. Chances are this is not within the framework of a registered company to start with – so the first question is - who is working for who?

Secondly, he is more than likely not been paid (and if he is it's his own money to start with) - another component in defining employment. Bo, I m not stretching a point - these are legal consideratiuons in any case which seeks to demonstrate that employment law is been broken. By the same token I am not seeking to manipulate the argument into a defensive position - I am trying to provide a broad an objective view of the law and what constitutes it been broken.

So, has the law has been broken here, or can it be argued fairly and rightly he is, as would any decent caring partner be doing, helping?

Also, whose “farm” is it – it’s not his land, but he lives there. It is for all legal intents and purposes his partners’ land, his partners’ “farm” (or as often the case is, it is the partners familys land). That is how the law would almost certainly see it as it is almost certainly not going to be registered in his name.

And if a law is been broken, at what point does that start – does a Thai Immigration/Customs agent have to sit hidden with a camera and catch the guy x number of times feeding the fish, or turning the pump on, or helping pour the cement from a bucket?

Sorry, realistically I just don’t see it happening – I just don’t see a case here which amounts to the law been broken.

Then there is the 3rd type – the guy who fits in between these extremes: myself for example. I have 1400rai, I employ 8 people full time, and about 20 part time. I have close on 300 head of cattle, I produce anything from 1 ton to 3 tons of milk a day, my beef cattle carry an export health certificate – I am clearly not a case of “a few cows and a couple of rai” - no question about it, this is a commercial exercise however looked at. I have goverment health inspectors who turn up whenever the wish. I am clearly going to attract attention.

But hang on a sec – just whose business is this actually?

Yes, it is a registered Thai company. The paperwork shows the land to belong to a Thai company, the directors are all Thai citizens, and the shareholder is a trust structure which my kids are the beneficiaries of (they are both dual citizens - both Thai citizens , and one is also Brit, the other USA). I am er…. the Trustee of the trust (and the directors can do zip without the shareholders consent, who do zip without the trustees’ permission- who in turn represents the interests of the beneficiaries i.e my two kids). The business (i.e. the business which runs the farm – which rents it from the Thai company which owns it) is another Thai company – which is controlled by my wife - a Thai citizen. The relivant point here: I am an employee of my wife’s business – to be exact I am employed as an agricultural engineer. Now, go back and read the rule book – agricultural engineers are a legal occupation in this country for foreigners – and it is under this umbrella that I do what I do. In fact, for what it worth, before I started the farm I was employed in Thailand by an American agricultural equipment manufacturer as an agricultural engineer.

The overall point: I (or "we" if we consider the wife an equal partner - which she is at every level) have sought to establish a framework that is appropriate for what the business does - a framework within which I can and do work legally - at least so far as it is practicaly possible. this may not be the way for you to go about things - I am trying to provide an overview which takes into consideration different cicumstances, size, capital ect ...

Does my work permitt allow me to drive a tractor – yes and no. In the course of my employment for my wifes company e.g. in the testing, maintenance and training/teaching or staff, yes I can (and I have a valid Thai license to drive the ###### thing on public roads - how many Thai tractor drivers have a license - less than 10% if you want to know). What I am not allowed to do is drive that tractor in the normal course of farm work – where such a job could be performed by a Thai employee e.g. ploughing land, or planting corn seed with the Kinze or air seeder. That would taking a job away from a Thai national. That is the purpose of the law, why it is wriutten and what it serves to protect - it is not to stop me participating in the business.

That said, I would be talking rubbish if I said no – I never drive the tractor or drive the combine in the course of normal farm work. Truth is I do so often – I do so on those occasions when we have a work load, are up against the wall time wise and my employees are involved in seeing to it that other jobs that have to be done are been done e.g. when heavy rain is expected and we have to get crops cut and covered.

Have I ever been challenged on that? No, I have not –it’s in the interest of this business that that task is completed, and I do not believe any beaurocrat would want to penalise me for that. What has enabled me to get away with that (if that’s how one wishes to term it)? Nothing, because having said what I did above, that is not what the law is about. I could say it’s because over the years I have made a point of treating those I work with, and those in authority (read as government officials) with courtesy and respect. They understand what’s involved in running a farm, they understand that no-one is loosing their job, they understand that for this business to be successful, by its very nature it will require me to play an active role – and yes, I believe it is tolerated and accepted for those reasons, if for no other.

To have an official looking over my back to ensure I don’t do that (i.e. drive a tractor or combine on occassion in the normal course of farm work)would be pathetic. I am married to a Thai woman who is a farmer. For heavens sake, she is my wife of 20 years, the mother of my children – this is my home. Is the law going to be exercised against me for doing what is required when required to run the family business? No, I just don’t see it happening – I just don’t see what interest would served by using employment law in this regard - and I know for a fact that it will not be used agianst me in this way (yes, it has been said to me in no less words that officialdom has no objection in principal - to driving a tractor on my own land). It's a different matter when I contrcat out to plough other local farmer's land. In those cases the company is been employed by a 3rd party on a professional basis, and in these cases I will make a point of ensuring one of the staff are sent to do that job - because it is a job that the company is paid for and is off my land - though here too, I would lying if I said on occassion I have not helped - usually when we have had to plough round the clock to get a large sector done in time for a contract time restricted planter.

So what is the point I am making?

Firstly the law as it applies to farming is not quite what everyone says it is – there is a legal framework which permits foreigners to participate in farming and ag related activity/business.

Secondly, anyone on the forum who has questions about the legality of who is doing what, needs to consider it against the background of how the law is likely to be applied in reality, and what the law is seeking to achieve i.e. in the fish farming example I gave (which I think is a fairly good illustrative example of the situation most farangs find themsleves in when we talk about farming - although it could chicken farming or flower growing ) – what amounts to "work" or "employment" in the legal context – who is the ex-pat working for, what salary is he been paid (if indeed any). To prosecute a farang in this or a similar situation (e.g. helping to build a fish tank on his land, helping to feed the fish or maintain the pump) is not what the law is about, and is not what offcials are going to be seeking to make examples of.

So, where you are likely to have problems - just what sort of situation stands a real chance of dropping you in trouble? Here's an example:

A situation where you have several rai or more of fish or shrimp ponds for example, are hauling the stuff out by the ton each month, the company has no legal structure, is not registered, employs ahalf a dozen people and is paying no tax or employee related social security, and or/any other type of financial obligation. You are going to attract attention – it will quite likely start off on some or other legal admin point (e.g. health & safety), and from there quickly degenerate into a whole load of issues you or your partner will be confronted with.

In other words, like running any business in Thailand, there is away to go about it – if that means setting it up within a defined legal structure that, and getting a work permit which allows you to play an active role in that business – then yes – that is what you should do. What determines that will more than likely be the capital invested, the size of the business and the amount of staff employed (but other factors may also have to considered.)

If the above does not apply, as is the case with most ex-pats who do not work for companies but have provided their partner with funds to get a family sized ag type project up and running, and who live on the premises with their partner, and who “help” their partner as any husband or wife would do from time to time, but receive no salary or wage for that help – make sure your visa is in order and quite frankly, I can’t see it been considered as breaking the employment law.

I think the above is a fairly realistic overview of the work permit subject as far as farming goes – yes you could get stitched up for picking flowers or feeding the fish, as I could for driving the tractor on certain occasions. In theory it could happen, in practise, no – Thailand is not an Orwellian society, officials are not out to make a point out of hard working ex-pats seeking to find realistic solutions to supporting their families – and if it is so big as to be considered a commercial exercise, register the company , pay your taxes, get a work permit that allows you play an active role in the business (it can be done).

Lastly - but proberbly most importantly of all things: keep your nose clean, be sensitive and show courtesy to your neighbours (e.g. farmyard smells and noise), pay your co-op and hardware store bills on time and - do not behave in rural communties like we behave in Pattaya on Patong beach. yes - the Thai's will keep a straight face, you will not realise you've made your mark in a negative way, but be sure it will not have gone unnoticed or ignored - you will have lost the communities respect. Your greatest asset im small Thai communities is your integrity and when in Rome do as the Romans do. Get the local village headman on your side, and quite frankly, off the record - you can do what you like workwise and you'll have no problems.

Best of luck

MF

Edited April 17, 2007 by Maizefarmer

[btate]

Nice overview. I know from personal experience that the 'idea' works in at least one other industry that is closely watched by the Thai Gov't and TAT.

Bt

[Khonwan]

(and I have a valid Thai license to drive the ###### thing on public roads - how many Thai tractor drivers have a license - less than 10% if you want to know).

Hi Maizefarmer

I've driven my tractor on the roads from time to time for years (no WP) - never knew a drivers licence was required. I have my บ2 licence for 10-wheelers; what's required for the tractor?

Rgds

Khonwan

[Tim207]

and the shareholder is a trust structure which my kids are the beneficiaries of (they are both dual citizens - both Thai citizens , and one is also Brit, the other USA). I am er…. the Trustee of the trust (and the directors can do zip without the shareholders consent, who do zip without the trustees’ permission- who in turn represents the interests of the beneficiaries i.e my two kids).

MF

I asked about holding property in trusts several months ago in the realestate forum and was told that trusts are not part of Thai law. It must have been someone who didn't know what he was talking about.

I am very interested in how hard it was to set up and any problems you might have had. This is the way I had hoped to register any land we buy and if it is available it is how I would prefer to hold land. Ideally I would want to setup a trust with my daughter the beneficiary and me the trustee. I would then buy property and put it in the trust. If you think this is possible (actually if any trust situation is possible) I will talk to a lawyer when I get back.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Tim207

[Maizefarmer]

Trusts are only just now starting to b used in Thai business. They take time to set up and cost money. There are also differances to them and how they can be used here in Thailand compared to the West, for them to be recognised as legal entities.

Very much a specialist legal subject - a topic all on it's own.

[Tilapia]

mmmmm …. not so sure about the underlying tone to comments regards guys who find themselves looking back on a financial decision they took with respect to a relationship they had with a Thai girl. But yes, there is none-the-less some truth to what is said.

I think a lot of guys fail to appreciate it is an occupation that WILL NOT generate an income to pay a mortgage, to educate the kids, to finance a car, to run a home, to take a holiday and do all the things most Westerners are accustomed to doing – unless a few common sense considerations are bourne in mind.

I have time and time again seen that the house, the car, the start-up capital and everything else, is achieved with funds that formed no part of the ex-pats future intentioned or planned spending – but occurs on the basis of a relationship, which if the same "rules" were applied back home in their own country, they wouldn't dream of getting themselves into. Unless the partners can BOTH discipline themselves to run the venture with a view to adopting the same financial principals as one would run any business (and the principals are as applicable in Thailand as they are in Western countries) – it becomes a matter of time only before the capital starts to dry up and problems start. It's what happens when the heart is used to make decisions that should be made with the head. Keep emotions and feelings out of it.

Partners and relationships aside – the idea that any farming venture can or will run successfully with you in your home country, and 3rd parties running it this end for you – is pie in the sky. It will not work – even less so if those entrusted with your funds demonstrate no previous experience. It's one thing having the idea – it's a completely different matter making a success of it. On this point, frikkiedeboer is 100% correct.

That's the second essential ingredient – your presence.

Believe me, whether it's flower growing, pig farming, chickens, cattle, fish farming – your ongoing (or at the least regular) presence is an ABSOLUTE MUST . In most cases (at least if you want it to be a viable and commercial success so that it returns your capital, never mind any profit over and above that), you are going to find that agriculture is long hours and hard work – in particular if it involves livestock – which stands little chance of been successful in your absence.

Speaking for myself, the first 5 years were 24/7, 365 days a year, It was close on 10 years before I was financially secure and it is only within the last 3 - 4 years that I have got to the point where farm income alone has covered the cost of buying the land, building the house, the cost of equipment, livestock, of bringing up the kids, saving for their education, and been able to generate enough to secure my retirement.

Anyone wanting to secure themselves and their future on an ag based income with anything less than total commitment, a solid business approach, and allowing their heart to make decisions and not their head, stands a fair chance of looking back in a few years regretting what they done.

MF

I'm new to this group, however I have spend the last 12 years here in Thailand full-time.

What MF wrote is the truth, take it or leave it, if you are doing any kind of business here, "you" need to be pressent, specially if it is any kind of intensive live-stock. There is also a big difference from a "hobby farm" to a setup that you can actually make a living of, and that takes a fair chunk of cash + a 100% commitment from yourself, to stand tall all the way, and there aint many of that kind, so my respect to them who made it work.

Tilapia

[Maizefarmer]

(and I have a valid Thai license to drive the ###### thing on public roads - how many Thai tractor drivers have a license - less than 10% if you want to know).

Hi Maizefarmer

I've driven my tractor on the roads from time to time for years (no WP) - never knew a drivers licence was required. I have my บ2 licence for 10-wheelers; what's required for the tractor?

Rgds

Khonwan

In practise - no, I'll laugh my head off if you ever get pulled over by the men in brown on your tractor and get asked for the license. I have only been asked once - and it was because I reversed over a moped parked on a public road backing out of the local co-op yard!!

In any event - yes, if you back into into someone's Merc, or god forbid hit a kid - then a license becomes a very real "get out of jail" card.

The correct license is a Cat 8 if you're a smallholder, or Cat 9 if you are going to be driving rice harvesters and/or combines as well.

Oddly though Cat 8 is valid for 3 years and must then be renewed, whereas the fancy one, the Cat 9 must be renewed every year (don't aks me why - I haven't a clue). But get it once and then renewal is just paper shuffling and "stamp" work - Thai officials love rubber stamps, the more the better - I have always belived the more rubber stamps you have on any Thai document the better it works!!

Cost Baht 500 with the apllication will see you right (take passport with - and work permitt & permanent residancy paperwork, house reg ect ect ect ... if applicable, but otherwise passport will be fine).

MF

Edited April 24, 2007 by Maizefarmer

[Khonwan]

(and I have a valid Thai license to drive the ###### thing on public roads - how many Thai tractor drivers have a license - less than 10% if you want to know).

Hi Maizefarmer

I've driven my tractor on the roads from time to time for years (no WP) - never knew a drivers licence was required. I have my บ2 licence for 10-wheelers; what's required for the tractor?

Rgds

Khonwan

In practise - no, I'll laugh my head off if you ever get pulled over by the men in brown on your tractor and get asked for the license. I have only been asked once - and it was because I reversed over a moped parked on a public road backing out of the local co-op yard!!

In any event - yes, if you back into into someone's Merc, or god forbid hit a kid - then a license becomes a very real "get out of jail" card.

The correct license is a Cat 8 if you're a smallholder, or Cat 9 if you are going to be driving rice harvesters and/or combines as well.

Oddly though Cat 8 is valid for 3 years and must then be renewed, whereas the fancy one, the Cat 9 must be renewed every year (don't aks me why - I haven't a clue). But get it once and then renewal is just paper shuffling and "stamp" work - Thai officials love rubber stamps, the more the better - I have always belived the more rubber stamps you have on any Thai document the better it works!!

Cost Baht 500 with the apllication will see you right (take passport with - and work permitt & permanent residancy paperwork, house reg ect ect ect ... if applicable, but otherwise passport will be fine).

MF

I spoke with some other tractor drivers in the village a couple of days ago, who all, like me have บ/ท 2/3 HGV licences. They knew that there is a tractor-licence but believed that the HGV licence suffices - just in the same way that it certainly suffices for a car (I no longer use a car licence). I can easily check, of course, but, what do you think - would it be covered? What is the Thai prefix for Cat 8? Is there a test for it? No PR, no WP, no problem (were not required for my บ2).

Rgds

Khonwan

[goatfarmer]

My farm is a hobby. I love my goats. My staff make cheese and sell it under a 'haang' registered in their name. They share the profits and take most of the responsibility. After four years, we are now at a point where I can basically leave them to it. Amazing!

[Maizefarmer]

If you have taken your hobby, turned it into a business, and then on top of that got Thai staff to succesfully run it for you - well, all I can say is you've done ###### well - 10 out of 10.

MF

[bina]

mf,

can a licsese for tractors from an other country be transferred to a thai liscense or does that not work???)here its one tractor liscense for all types of agricultural equipment but not forklifts cranes etc)...

anon is going to do his tractor's liscense in israel (its in thai, the whole thing, for thai workers here, and totally legal: includes eye check, physical, theory and driving it costs 2000+ shekels for three days and then one day driving test plus some more for the liscense bureau)... but then eventually could he transfer it to thailand to use there? and having got a tractor liscense could he then apply for other machinery as here (with tractor liscense u can then go and apply for forklift, unless the laws changed)

bina and anon

[Maizefarmer]

Good queston - to be honest i don't know.

In principal I see no reason why not - I got my Thai heavy duty license issued on the basis of a UK issued HGV, so why not a tractor as well on the basis of a foreign issued tractor license. I simply don't know. Put it this way - if it ain't possible in Bkk, I bet you'll have little hassle getting it issued out in the coutnry provinces somewhere (you know how Thailand works - Anon will sure know!)

MF

[brahmburgers]

Most farang who profess to do farming in Thailand are probably puttering around with projects or, at most supervising several farm hands. If there are some farang in Thailand, I'd bet that they're spending a whole heck of a lot more to get things going (land, equipment, support for his wife and her family, other expenses) than whatever revenue that might be gained from selling farm products - even in the long run. To top it off, the missus could up and leave him later on (which happens more often than not) and he's back to square one - with a few added stories to tell his buddies at the watering hole.

[Gary A]

I enjoy tinkering around in my workshop as well as working with the tractor. It appears that I have just bought twelve more rai for my wife. We are working on getting a pond dug on the ten rai we purchased a couple of years ago. The new twelve rai plot already has a pond. I'm 62 years old and my wife is 39. This investment isn't for my future. It's for her future. I'll continue to help as long as I can. If some legal issue comes up that prevents me from enjoying my hobbies, it will hurt her and not me. I still adhere to my Thailand rules. I will NOT spend more than I can afford to walk away from.

I was approached about a year ago and asked if I was interested in the twelve rai. The guy was willing to sacrifice it for 40,000 baht per rai. I laughed and told him that he was dreaming. My wife told me that I insulted him. About six months ago he came back and offered the twelve rai for 400,000 baht. I told my wife that I would give 20,000 per rai but she told me that he would be insulted again. We just ignored the offer. My wife was talking to a person that this guy owes money. She told this lady (good friend of mine) that I would pay only 20,000 per rai and that was it. No more talk, just that offer. I do know for a fact that the lady has been putting a LOT of pressure on the guy. She wants her money. Today he accepted the offer. Nine rai has a chanote and three rai does not but it apparently can be changed to a chanote in the near future. I am withholding some of the money until this actually happens. That was also agreeable.