Rare/undercooked Chicken And Pork

[junkofdavid2]

In the US and even when I was living in the Philippines for a while, it was "common knowledge" that chicken and pork should never be eaten rare, but that it's "okay" if it's beef.

Are these just myths?

Rare pork and chicken seem to be super common in Thailand, even in "reputable" and more expensive restaurants!

(Cooked outside, but still red inside).

Maybe it's safe in Thailand for some reason?

I would think that it's common for people here to eat this rare chicken and pork (since it's so commonly served that way, such as with those Japanese chicken barbecue sticks Siam Paragon), yet I've never heard of anyone actually getting seriously sick for eating it.

Edited April 15, 2007 by junkofdavid2

[mosquitoman]

Uncooked chicken is a big no no in my book. A sure way to get food poisoning.

The word Salmonella springs to mind.

As far as raw pork goes again I would be cautious, however I have heard of a dish from E-sarn, that sounds similsr to steak tartare but is made with pork.

MM

[swanks]

I have serious doubts about the pork as cooking kills parasites and pigs kept in 'free range' conditions can have them I'm told.

Conventional thought on birds was that as a lot contained salmonella in the gut , they must be well cooked .

Modern catering theory is now coming round to the attitude that the bacteria is only found in the gut , not the muscle tissue . This can be contaminated during slaughter and butchery but even then , the pathogen is on the outside of the meat and is killed by even light cooking.

We first saw duck breast served rare a few years ago in good restaurants but whether we will see chicken given the same trust in the west is perhaps doubtful.

In theory , then , it should be OK!

[mr_hippo]

Uncooked pork may contain harmful toxins, worms and latent diseases

[jetjock]

Also one should be very careful about washing your hands and dishes when handling these uncooked items as cross contamination with salmonella is very easy. I have never been able to figure out why more people do not get sick when I watch the way the unsanitary conditions with some of the street vendors in Thailand ??

[bjsanook]

The dangers of eating under cooked food is noticeable everyday. Just take a look at the skin of most of the Isaan ladies you meet. Red welts, some tracking on the legs, bodies and arms. Itching (Caan mahk mahk) of course is the most noticeable symptom.

Take a look in most 7-11's and Family Marts. There is de-worming medicine right next to the other stuff like condoms and inhalers.

The problem the ladies have is they cure it with a dose of meds but then eat the same stuff they got it from again and again.

Cutaneous Larvae Migrans (just one of many worms they can get) is best treated with Ivermectin 12mg 1 dose by mouth, but I wasn't able to find it in Thailand. Multiple doses of Albendozole finally cured the lady I was helping. Of course she is up at Ma's eating and drinking for Songklan so will need another dose when she gets back.

BJ

[mosquitoman]

The dangers of eating under cooked food is noticeable everyday. Just take a look at the skin of most of the Isaan ladies you meet. Red welts, some tracking on the legs, bodies and arms. Itching (Caan mahk mahk) of course is the most noticeable symptom.

BJ

Is this is a classic sign of food poisoning?

MM

[girlx]

see trichonellosis... my thai friends recommend taking a de-worming pill every 3-6 months.

[marshbags]

Don,t forget the bird flu situation

All chicken / products must be well cooked before eating them.

I wouldn,t recommend eating anything undercooked from animals.

Especially where quality health controls are lacking.

marshbags

[raro]

I eat regularly homemade beef and pork tartar made from tenderloin bought at foodland. Still alive and kicking!

[sabaijai]

Don,t forget the bird flu situation

All chicken / products must be well cooked before eating them.

I wouldn,t recommend eating anything undercooked from animals.

Especially where quality health controls are lacking.

marshbags

I don't believe there are any known cases of bird flu contracted as a result of eating chicken. Typically comes from handling infected live poultry.

Some facts about bird flu in Asia:

-- Relatively difficult to transmit from bird to human. Thousands of cases among poultry in Asia have resulted in only 120 human cases, of them only about 60 led to death. It must also be noted this is a region where there is often close human contact with live poultry in backyard farms.

-- Humans would have to be in prolonged close contact with an infected bird, usually in a confined space, as the virus can be carried in fecal dust or have direct contact with surfaces contaminated by infected droppings or secretions.

-- Whilst the virus can exist in tissue, there is no evidence properly cooked poultry or eggs can be a source of infection. H5 and H7 highly pathogenic viruses are rendered inactive by heat (60 degrees Celsius/30 minutes) and by acid pH.

-- In the Asian human cases, exposure to the virus is thought most likely during slaughter, defeathering, butchering and preparation of poultry for cooking.

Sources: World Health Organisation (WHO), World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE)

[sugarhead]

As far as professional food production is concerned, under-cooked poultry and pork are not to be served and this is not something new.

If HACCP is used as a reference, the meat needs to be cooked in such matter that it becomes safe for consumption. This method does not leave room for rare cooking. The time-temperature requirements are such that pork and poultry (high risk protein foods) are served done only.

[ProThaiExpat]

In the west, especially the U.S., eating pink pork has been derided for years due to fears of contracting trichinosis.

The facts are that there hasn't been a reported case of trichinosis in the U.S. from eating domestic pork for 40 years. Occasionally, there is a report, every few years, of someone contracting trichinosis from eating wild bear meat or the like.

I suspect pork in Thailand is as safe as anywhere in the world, that is if your supply chain is reputable.

I eat pink pork, and have done so my whole life, without incident.

Chicken is another story. Keeping it cold is essential as the level of bacteria in chicken rises alarmingly once it reaches room temperature.

[Phil Conners]

Funny, I have the opposite experience, they overcook everything until it's bone dry ...

[mosquitoman]

Funny, I have the opposite experience, they overcook everything until it's bone dry ...

My experience too here in Thailand I find they overcook meat and fish

MM

[marshbags]

Don,t forget the bird flu situation

All chicken / products must be well cooked before eating them.

I wouldn,t recommend eating anything undercooked from animals.

Especially where quality health controls are lacking.

marshbags

I don't believe there are any known cases of bird flu contracted as a result of eating chicken. Typically comes from handling infected live poultry.

Some facts about bird flu in Asia:

-- Relatively difficult to transmit from bird to human. Thousands of cases among poultry in Asia have resulted in only 120 human cases, of them only about 60 led to death. It must also be noted this is a region where there is often close human contact with live poultry in backyard farms.

-- Humans would have to be in prolonged close contact with an infected bird, usually in a confined space, as the virus can be carried in fecal dust or have direct contact with surfaces contaminated by infected droppings or secretions.

-- Whilst the virus can exist in tissue, there is no evidence properly cooked poultry or eggs can be a source of infection. H5 and H7 highly pathogenic viruses are rendered inactive by heat (60 degrees Celsius/30 minutes) and by acid pH.

b]The above paragraph states that " properly cooked chicken / eggs " ( not undercooked ) show no evidence of infection and just maybe there might be confusion if you do not read it properly

-- In the Asian human cases, exposure to the virus is thought most likely during slaughter, defeathering, butchering and preparation of poultry for cooking.

Sources: World Health Organisation (WHO), World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE)

Nothing personal Sabaijai, but............... just in case there is any confusion from this informative post.

The O.P. is asking about under cooked chicken and other meats of course and so i must add:-

Health authorities recommend making sure chicken and by products are well cooked before eating them.

Regarding Asian bird flu they specifically recommend that chicken / products are to be well cooked to eliminate the possiblities where bird flu is suspected.

In a seperate issue, long before it came on the scene health authorities world wide have warned about eating poultry, raw eggs / ones undercooked to remove / reduce the threat of bacterial infections and in particular salmonella.

In general terms you are advised to make sure you do not eat undercooked poultry or other meats, especially in third world countries and i stand by my previous post regarding bird flu.

marshbags

Edited April 18, 2007 by marshbags

[marshbags]

I took the following information / advice from an email sent to me today via the British FCO website:-

Quote:-

Outbreaks of Avian Influenza (Bird Flu) in Thailand have resulted in a small number of human fatalities. As a precaution, you should avoid live animal markets, poultry farms and other places where you may come into close contact with domestic, caged or wild birds; and ensure poultry and egg dishes are thoroughly cooked. For further information see Health section below and also read the FCO’s Avian and Pandemic Influenza factsheet.

Taken from the above mentioned fact sheet:-

Precautions against avian flu

There are no specific restrictions for travellers to any of the countries affected by avian influenza, as the risk is believed to be very low. But if you plan on travelling to areas where outbreaks have been reported, you may wish to take the following precautions:

Avoid visiting live animal markets, poultry farms and other places where you might come into contact with wild, domestic or caged birds

Avoid contact with surfaces contaminated with animal faeces or fluids

Avoid eating or handling poultry, egg or duck dishes, if any of these are undercooked or raw (normal cooking destroys the avian influenza virus)

Wash hands regularly

Do not attempt to bring any live poultry products back to the UK

Most human cases are thought to have acquired their infection following exposure to dead or diseased birds. Evidence suggests that particularly risky exposure occurs during the slaughter, plucking and preparation of poultry for cooking.

Unquote.

marshbags

Edited April 21, 2007 by marshbags

[Lickey]

Here in north issan, raw pork chopped and diced like mincemeat with a few green herbs added then eaten seems a regular thing, although i never touch it, perhaps its all the chillies ect they eat with it kills any harmful bacteria?

[wpcoe]

Here in north issan, raw pork chopped and diced like mincemeat with a few green herbs added then eaten seems a regular thing, although i never touch it, perhaps its all the chillies ect they eat with it kills any harmful bacteria?

Eating raw pork has not only bacterial problems, but also trichinosis, which is caused by a worm that lives in the muscle tissue. Even if the chillies or vinegar negated baterial problems, I wonder if it would affect the worms (or their larvae).

[sabaijai]

Don,t forget the bird flu situation

All chicken / products must be well cooked before eating them.

I wouldn,t recommend eating anything undercooked from animals.

Especially where quality health controls are lacking.

marshbags

I don't believe there are any known cases of bird flu contracted as a result of eating chicken. Typically comes from handling infected live poultry.

Some facts about bird flu in Asia:

-- Relatively difficult to transmit from bird to human. Thousands of cases among poultry in Asia have resulted in only 120 human cases, of them only about 60 led to death. It must also be noted this is a region where there is often close human contact with live poultry in backyard farms.

-- Humans would have to be in prolonged close contact with an infected bird, usually in a confined space, as the virus can be carried in fecal dust or have direct contact with surfaces contaminated by infected droppings or secretions.

-- Whilst the virus can exist in tissue, there is no evidence properly cooked poultry or eggs can be a source of infection. H5 and H7 highly pathogenic viruses are rendered inactive by heat (60 degrees Celsius/30 minutes) and by acid pH.

b]The above paragraph states that " properly cooked chicken / eggs " ( not undercooked ) show no evidence of infection and just maybe there might be confusion if you do not read it properly

-- In the Asian human cases, exposure to the virus is thought most likely during slaughter, defeathering, butchering and preparation of poultry for cooking.

Sources: World Health Organisation (WHO), World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE)

Nothing personal Sabaijai, but............... just in case there is any confusion from this informative post.

The O.P. is asking about under cooked chicken and other meats of course and so i must add:-

Health authorities recommend making sure chicken and by products are well cooked before eating them.

Regarding Asian bird flu they specifically recommend that chicken / products are to be well cooked to eliminate the possiblities where bird flu is suspected.

In a seperate issue, long before it came on the scene health authorities world wide have warned about eating poultry, raw eggs / ones undercooked to remove / reduce the threat of bacterial infections and in particular salmonella.

In general terms you are advised to make sure you do not eat undercooked poultry or other meats, especially in third world countries and i stand by my previous post regarding bird flu.

marshbags

That's a good point. But still it seems there are no known cases of avian flu contracted via eating poultry, whether raw or cooked.

[marshbags]

The Nation May 3, 2007 : Last updated 04:43 pm (Thai local time)

Quote:-

Raw-pork dishes kill 2, making 300 others sick

Up to 55 patients remained hospitalised at a Phayao Hospital Thursday after they ate raw-pork dishes provided at a funeral last week.

Of them, three remained in intensive-care units.

"We believe they have caught Streptococcus suis from the raw pork and pig blood," Public Health Ministry's permanent secretary Dr Prat Boonyawongvirot said Thursday.

Following the servings at the funeral on April 25 in Phayao's Phu Sang subdistrict, more than 300 people came down with illnesses. Of them, two died.

Prat said he already assigned Dr Thanongsan Suthatham, inspector general of the Public Health Ministry, to control the spread of the dangerous bacterium and draw up long-term preventative measures.

Unquote.

Ref url:- http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/r...newsid=30033301

Yet another be careful article to consider.

marshbags

[Trevor]

Q. Why does raw meat retain such a hold on traditional cultures? A. It has valuable health-giving and disease-preventative properties.

http://www.paleodiet.com/

Pickled garlic, onion and peppers, consumed frequently as condiments, inhibit the development of parasite eggs. The practice of fermenting pork and other meats kills the larvae of the trichinosis organism. Native maklua berries are an effective treatment for hookworm. Modern junk foods (sugar, grains) undo their good work.

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/thailand.html

As for the great bird flu hoax, the good Dr Mercola has written a best-seller on the subject

http://shop.mercola.com/Books-The_Great_Bi..._Hoax-P578.aspx

The Phayao incident was apparently caused by Streptococcus suis, a bacterium, not a parasite. This likely arose from bad meat handling, transportation, lack of refridgeration until consumption and massive antibiotic overuse in the kingdom, creating superbugs.

[Nienke]

Q. Why does raw meat retain such a hold on traditional cultures? A. It has valuable health-giving and disease-preventative properties.

http://www.paleodiet.com/

Pickled garlic, onion and peppers, consumed frequently as condiments, inhibit the development of parasite eggs. The practice of fermenting pork and other meats kills the larvae of the trichinosis organism. Native maklua berries are an effective treatment for hookworm. Modern junk foods (sugar, grains) undo their good work.

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/thailand.html

As for the great bird flu hoax, the good Dr Mercola has written a best-seller on the subject

http://shop.mercola.com/Books-The_Great_Bi..._Hoax-P578.aspx

The Phayao incident was apparently caused by Streptococcus suis, a bacterium, not a parasite. This likely arose from bad meat handling, transportation, lack of refridgeration until consumption and massive antibiotic overuse in the kingdom, creating superbugs.

I think it always comes back to the same: a healthy immune system. In fact having some worms in the gutt, coming in contact with pathogens, is good. It will activate the immune system, which in turn will build up antibodies, and so protecting us against these pathogens.

The pharmaceutical industry can't earn anything with healthy immune sytems, they need weakened and sick ones, in order to sell their products.

Lots of false information has been given and is still given, valuable information has been with-held, companies has been sold out, threatened blackmailed, innocent people have been (and are still used) as guinea pigs, people are killed, just to have us buy their products to keep us 'bug'-free or to stuff us full with med's in an attempt to 'make us better'.

The more you go into this subject, study it, the more you get sick of it, depsite a healthy immmune sytem

Now the pharmaceutical industry is after the vitamin and herbal products and other nutritional supplements that you still can buy without prescrition, because more and more people worldwide turn towards alternative health care. It has become a billion industry. Once they have laid their hands on that, gone with our fundamental right over our own health and health care.

Coming back to the topic of this thread: from what i understand from some of the posts, main reason of an outbreak of pathogen is unhygienic circumstances and bad storage. Main group that get sick are the ones with a low immune system (malnutritioned, children and maybe also elderly) and those who are in repeated contact with the pathogen.

And another reason is to instill fear in order to distract th public from what's really going on.

I, myself, give raw chicken and pork to my dog. I handle raw meat on a daily basis, also during the bird flu outbreak. I do not eat raw meat, though, but that's more because I don't like the idea. And I'm still around.

Nienke

P.S. Thank you, Trevor, for the highly interesting links

[kyb789]

Pork without a doubt has a high risk of worms in the meat and you must cook it thoroughly to ensure any parasites have been killed. This is common knowledge among wild boar hunters.

Chicken on the other hand has a risk of salmonella (which is a parasite) or ecoli bacteria contamination. Research that I have read said that the salmonella and/or ecoli actually live on the surface of the meat...not inside. The raw meat itself will not infect you, but it must be well cooked to ensure any bacteria on the outside are killed. The meat is contaminated through handling under unclean conditions. The bacteria that live in the gut will get on the fresh meat. You must never touch your body when handling raw chicken and keep the whole area disinfected and clean. It is frightening the way I see some of the Thai's handle raw chicken here.