So, has anyone seen IFR numbers?

[steelepulse]

It would be nice to see IFR ( Infected Fatality Rate) numbers from various countries.

 

From what I have read about the US, if any hospital or doctor suspects covid, they simply mark the death as covid, as they receive more money.  There are also a lot of countries that have various methods of marking a death of covid, with pundits saying some are higher than reported, but others saying lower than reported.

 

With that having been said, it sure appears that the IFR around the world is much lower than 1%, and various studies have shown it is around .1%-.4% and that is taking into account the elderly  and those that have (multiple) comorbidities.

 

So with all of these numbers that have come in basically saying that it is a small multiple higher than regular influenza, why the totally overblown lockdown and paranoia?

[ukrules]

11 minutes ago, steelepulse said:

From what I have read about the US, if any hospital or doctor suspects covid, they simply mark the death as covid, as they receive more money.

I've read this as well, is there any truth to it I wonder? Somehow I doubt it.

[steelepulse]

11 minutes ago, ukrules said:

I've read this as well, is there any truth to it I wonder? Somehow I doubt it.

No, it's the truth.  It's in the bailout package.  13K for any covid patient, then 39K if you put someone on a ventilator.  This is all due to offset the loss of other revenue to hospitals.  Feel free to look it up, plenty of links about it.

[Maestro]

Hospital Payments and the COVID-19 Death Count

By Angelo Fichera

Posted on April 21, 2020

 

A Minnesota state senator’s recent interview on Fox News about Medicare payments for COVID-19 hospitalizations has generated a frenzy of headlines on social media suggesting that hospitals may have a financial motivation when it comes to classifying cases or deaths as related to COVID-19.

 

One website ran a story headlined, “US Hospitals Getting Paid More to Label Cause of Death as ‘Coronavirus.'” It called the information “disturbing” and the interview “bone-chilling.”

 

Numerous readers have asked us about such claims, some of which imply that hospitals are making money by simply listing patients as having the disease — when in fact the payments referenced are for treating patients. And while some of the posts imply that fraud may be afoot, multiple experts told us that such theories of hospitals deliberately miscoding patients as COVID-19 are not supported by any evidence.

 

Read more: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/

[timendres]

26 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Hospital Payments and the COVID-19 Death Count

By Angelo Fichera

Posted on April 21, 2020

 

A Minnesota state senator’s recent interview on Fox News about Medicare payments for COVID-19 hospitalizations has generated a frenzy of headlines on social media suggesting that hospitals may have a financial motivation when it comes to classifying cases or deaths as related to COVID-19.

 

One website ran a story headlined, “US Hospitals Getting Paid More to Label Cause of Death as ‘Coronavirus.'” It called the information “disturbing” and the interview “bone-chilling.”

 

Numerous readers have asked us about such claims, some of which imply that hospitals are making money by simply listing patients as having the disease — when in fact the payments referenced are for treating patients. And while some of the posts imply that fraud may be afoot, multiple experts told us that such theories of hospitals deliberately miscoding patients as COVID-19 are not supported by any evidence.

 

Read more: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/

 

And Snopes agrees with this assessment:

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/medicare-hospitals-covid-patients/

[timendres]

To get an accurate IFR, you need to know something about the number of infections. Up until quite recently, we only had the numbers of those being treated as active infections. To know the actual total number, you need to have antibody tests to show who had the virus, but did not seek medical assistance. Antibody tests were not available at the time the governments made the decision to implement the lockdowns. At that time, the IFRs that were based on active infections were very high, as was the rate of the spread of the virus. This caused the "panic" that we saw in the health care industry and institutions. It is quite likely that once significant antibody testing is implemented, we will see that the IFR did not warrant the extreme measures taken, but that, as they say, is water under the bridge.

[cmarshall]

The confirmed Covid death count will never be accurate since testing was not adequate enough to establish the infection rate.  People who died at home were not tested and not counted as Covid deaths.  An early estimate of the excess deaths in New York City found the number to be 30% more than the confirmed Covid deaths.  

 

The only accurate way to establish the Covid death rate is by estimating excess deaths over the same period in previous years since every dead person gets a death certificate, but not a Covid test.  But you won't be able to establish the IFR since the number of infections will never be known.

Edited May 8, 2020 by cmarshall

[mr mr]

it was never about a virus. always follow the money. 

 

 

[steelepulse]

6 hours ago, timendres said:

 

And Snopes agrees with this assessment:

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/medicare-hospitals-covid-patients/

Is snopes saying this is false?  I'm not seeing that in their wording.  Bold is my emphasis.

 

What's True
It is plausible that Medicare is paying hospital fees for some COVID-19 cases in the range of the figures given by Dr. Scott Jensen, a Minnesota state senator, during a Fox News interview.

What's False
However, Medicare says it does not make standard, one-size-fits-all payments to hospitals for patients admitted with COVID-19 diagnoses and placed on ventilators. The $13,000 and $39,000 figures appear to be based on generic industry estimates for admitting and treating patients with similar conditions.

 

 

[chessman]

2 hours ago, steelepulse said:

Is snopes saying this is false?  I'm not seeing that in their wording.  Bold is my emphasis.

It is of course possible, but that seems to be the way the American healthcare system works... There is a financial incentive to give certain treatments. It would have happened before COVID too.

 

But for every death that is wrongly attributed to COVID there are probably a lot more that happen at private homes or in nursing homes that are not attributed. It is normal for running totals during a virus to severely underestimate the number of deaths. 18,000 was the 'official' total from Swine flu but conservative estimates of the real totals put the number at 10 times that amount. Initial data about 2020 'excess' deaths support the data that deaths are being underestimated.

[tlock]

6 hours ago, cmarshall said:

The confirmed Covid death count will never be accurate since testing was not adequate enough to establish the infection rate.  People who died at home were not tested and not counted as Covid deaths.  An early estimate of the excess deaths in New York City found the number to be 30% more than the confirmed Covid deaths.  

 

The only accurate way to establish the Covid death rate is by estimating excess deaths over the same period in previous years since every dead person gets a death certificate, but not a Covid test.  But you won't be able to establish the IFR since the number of infections will never be known.

 

I don't think we can say that all excess deaths were due to covid-19 infections.  For example patients that forego medical treatment out of fear of visiting hospitals.  

 

However, I do think that as a back of the envelope calculation, excess deaths are a useful statistic of the full extent of the pandemic.  For example, since so many die of comorbidities, many of them would have died without the covid-19 infection.  I don't think it's accurate to say "all those that died of covid-19 + all excess mortalities = total covid-19 deaths".

 

I think that total excess mortality is a clearer measure of the true effects of the pandemic.

 

 

 

[Lacessit]

Is the phrase "Only in America" appropriate for this boondoggle? Making money out of people who have died in pain, that's sick. Although I suppose the US can always print more dollars.

[CGW]

10 hours ago, timendres said:

And Snopes agrees with this assessment:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/medicare-hospitals-covid-patients/

Snopes, they were busted long ago as being "unreliable! 

[CGW]

13 hours ago, ukrules said:

I've read this as well, is there any truth to it I wonder? Somehow I doubt it.

Don't want to admit you have been conned and lied to? ???? 

There is more than enough evidence to support "we' have been conned!

[chessman]

2 minutes ago, CGW said:

Don't want to admit you have been conned and lied to? ???? 

There is more than enough evidence to support "we' have been conned!

No.

There is a lot of confusing and contradictory evidence that doesn't give a clear picture about everything. But there is enough evidence to say that the virus isn't a hoax and it won't kill us all. Beware anyone peddling either of those scenarios.

 

[CGW]

1 hour ago, chessman said:

It is of course possible, but that seems to be the way the American healthcare system works... There is a financial incentive to give certain treatments. It would have happened before COVID too.

Dammed decent of you to justify rampant corruption, not many of us can be so forgiving. ????

[CGW]

1 minute ago, chessman said:

Beware anyone peddling either of those scenarios.

Are you getting paid for these posts?

[chessman]

5 minutes ago, CGW said:

Are you getting paid for these posts?

Not at all ???? There's much more money in it for the people posting crazy conspiracy theories!

[chessman]

10 minutes ago, CGW said:

Dammed decent of you to justify rampant corruption, not many of us can be so forgiving.

Am sure you will be supporting Bernie in trying to make the American model more like European models if this is your main concern. This is not an issue in Europe ????

[CGW]

4 minutes ago, chessman said:

Am sure you will be supporting Bernie in trying to make the American model more like European models if this is your main concern. This is not an issue in Europe ????

???? Bernie? is this a form of attack? I'm not American.

Crazy "conspiracy theories" what are they, you seem to be the expert, please share?

[chessman]

32 minutes ago, CGW said:

Don't want to admit you have been conned and lied to? ???? 

There is more than enough evidence to support "we' have been conned!

people who say things like this tend to be conspiracy theorists. Of course you provide no 'evidence'.

 

Your ridiculous unsourced image about Snopes is a dead giveaway. Why would anybody be interested in 'facts' or 'checking them'. Much easier to just dismiss the whole thing, anybody who has met anyone I disagree with are compromised so this must be "100% fake".

[CGW]

1 minute ago, chessman said:

people who say things like this tend to be conspiracy theorists. Of course you provide no 'evidence'.

 

Your ridiculous unsourced image about Snopes is a dead giveaway. Why would anybody be interested in 'facts' or 'checking them'. Much easier to just dismiss the whole thing, anybody who has met anyone I disagree with are compromised so this must be "100% fake".

Lost me! you must be one of those fascist commies who believe that everyone should believe the same as you. ????

[Walker88]

This might be hard for people prone to conspiratorial beliefs to comprehend, but there are backdoor ways to measure the impact of CV-19.

 

Deaths tend to occur in a regular pattern, Statistical analysis can tell you when the pattern is behaving differently. The data show that CV-19 has juiced the normal rate of death in the US and in many other countries in the world. These deaths have occurred even with social distancing and sheltering in place, so they take on added significance and import. Had no measures been put in place, one can only guess how high the death toll might have been.

 

It will only be after the fact that the true death rate from CV-19 will be known, but every indication is that it is a significant multiple of the death rate from typical flu, is more contagious, has a host of unusual effects that impact even those with healthy immune systems, and unlike regular flu, SARS and MERS, is easily passed by people who are non-symptomatic.

 

It is rather foolish to think the combined govts of the entire planet got together and decided "Hey, let's inconvenience our citizens, hobble our GDP, and juice unemployment just to see how everybody reacts".

[Walker88]

51 minutes ago, CGW said:

Snopes, they were busted long ago as being "unreliable! 

So in your world is there anything for which George Soros is NOT responsible?  He's the favorite bogeyman of a certain fringe segment of society.

 

Before you jump in with his supposed behavior during WWII, let me remind you that he was aged 9 to 14 during the war.

 

Besides being perhaps the greatest trader ever, Soros has donated more than $10 billion to various causes, many of which involved improving schools, infrastructure, medical care, food assistance and other things most people would consider positive.

[connda]

14 hours ago, ukrules said:

I've read this as well, is there any truth to it I wonder? Somehow I doubt it.

Which makes the statistics meaningless for epidemiological study. 

[CGW]

2 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

So in your world is there anything for which George Soros is NOT responsible?

Yes!

didn't know he had any fanboys ????

[Walker88]

1 minute ago, CGW said:

Yes!

didn't know he had any fanboys ????

Unlike those who think he's a 10' Lizard Person who can lick his own eyebrows, I have had dealings with him and his organization. Thus, I guess I speak from a little experience, rather than absorbing nonsense from the Dark Web or QAnon or other places I find of questionable veracity and sagacity.

[chessman]

21 minutes ago, CGW said:

Lost me! you must be one of those fascist commies who believe that everyone should believe the same as you.

Not at all. There are good arguments on both sides of this crisis. But If you are on the side that too many freedoms have been taken away and the economic impact will be too great then you should at least make that decision also acknowledging that the number of deaths is being underestimated. 
 

Taking one side of the argument and then arguing that any contradictory facts are ‘lies’ is the logic of a child.

[CGW]

7 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

Unlike those who think he's a 10' Lizard Person who can lick his own eyebrows, I have had dealings with him and his organization. Thus, I guess I speak from a little experience, rather than absorbing nonsense from the Dark Web or QAnon or other places I find of questionable veracity and sagacity.

Well done you, at least - unlike some you don't try to influence others opinions ????

MSM rules ???? especially any of the left wing groups that Soros funds.

[CGW]

Just now, chessman said:

Not at all. There are good arguments on both sides of this crisis. But If you are on the side that too many freedoms have been taken away and the economic impact will be too great then you should at least make that decision also acknowledging that the number of deaths is being underestimated. 

Do you ever read what you write? you don't make assumptions, you leap onto them!

You do like to tell people what to think don't you, go on - be wild - reread your posts, even you would have to agree ????