Amid lockdown dispute, Musk says he will move Tesla out of California

[jm91]

1 minute ago, Crazy Alex said:

Public education is also funded and regulated by the federal government.

Yes public education is also funded and regulated by the federal government - to a small degree. Something like 10% of primary education is federal government funded. 

So what is your point? Please try and make a point. 

 

[Crazy Alex]

4 minutes ago, jm91 said:

Tell that to the current group of conservatives who love public money going to companies like Tesla. 

I think subsidies should go to education. I guess you don't. 

 

Yes, I vividly recall all the conservatives siding with Obama when he signed electric vehicle subsidies into law. ????????

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_plug-in_electric_vehicles#United_States

 

I am fine with funding education. But I expect RESULTS. Throwing money at a problem isn't a solution.

[Crazy Alex]

5 minutes ago, jm91 said:

Yes public education is also funded and regulated by the federal government - to a small degree. Something like 10% of primary education is federal government funded. 

So what is your point? Please try and make a point. 

 

The point was to increase your knowledge on how education is funded and regulated.

[jm91]

Just now, Crazy Alex said:

Yes, I vividly recall all the conservatives siding with Obama when he signed electric vehicle subsidies into law. ????????

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_plug-in_electric_vehicles#United_States

 

I am fine with funding education. But I expect RESULTS. Throwing money at a problem isn't a solution.

What is your point? 

Seriously what is your point? Do you believe the education system in the US is bad? If so then be clear about what you are saying. It is not the difficult to be clear. 

[jm91]

1 minute ago, Crazy Alex said:

The point was to increase your knowledge on how education is funded and regulated.

Then you failed. I am familiar with the funding of education in the US. 

You made some vague statement about education funding with no context and people are expected to guess what you are trying to convey, Your writing is unclear. 

 

[Crazy Alex]

4 minutes ago, jm91 said:

What is your point? 

Seriously what is your point? Do you believe the education system in the US is bad? If so then be clear about what you are saying. It is not the difficult to be clear. 

My point is that *green energy* subsidies are a darling of the left. Ever heard of the "Green New Deal"? Who is pushing that? Conservatives?

[ToS2014]

14 hours ago, Tug said:

Doubt it to expensive and retarded don’t be so jealous lol sun sand beautiful women the 5th largest economy on earth California has a lot going for it

California has a lot going for it.....high taxes, ever increasing government 'involvement' in individual and business, giving away tax payer dollars to those who don't 'contribute'.  I could go on but I'll just leave it there....

[jm91]

1 hour ago, Crazy Alex said:

My point is that *green energy* subsidies are a darling of the left. Ever heard of the "Green New Deal"? Who is pushing that? Conservatives?

What is your point? Do you think green energy is bad?

You really do have a problem with clear thinking. 

[jm91]

7 minutes ago, ToS2014 said:

California has a lot going for it.....high taxes, ever increasing government 'involvement' in individual and business, giving away tax payer dollars to those who don't 'contribute'.  I could go on but I'll just leave it there....

I agree California is giving away tax dollars to those who don't contribute - giving more money to companies like Tesla is a waste. 

Glad you see that as well. 

[Venom]

Good for him! ????

[Stargeezr]

There must be many states like Nevada or New Mexico where the taxes

to businesses are way cheaper than California. I would consider this to be

a good decision by Mr Musk or any smart business person.

Geezer

[Crazy Alex]

48 minutes ago, jm91 said:

What is your point? Do you think green energy is bad?

You really do have a problem with clear thinking. 

I just posted "my point is..." and you're asking what my point is? Strange. What gives you the idea I think green energy is bad. You are not being very clear at all. Tell me SPECIFICALLY what I've posted that leads you to believe I think "green energy is bad" (whatever that means).

Edited May 10, 2020 by Crazy Alex

[Crazy Alex]

42 minutes ago, jm91 said:

I agree California is giving away tax dollars to those who don't contribute - giving more money to companies like Tesla is a waste. 

Glad you see that as well. 

Show us those checks the State of California has written to Tesla.

[jm91]

3 minutes ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

There must be many states like Nevada or New Mexico where the taxes

to businesses are way cheaper than California. I would consider this to be

a good decision by Mr Musk or any smart business person.

Geezer

In a previous job I was involved in analysis work for decisions on the economics of building facilities. Taxes is only one of many considerations. 

I have no problem giving public money to support businesses. 

My problem is the pure hypocrisy of many conservatives who whine and anguish about tax funded education etc.. then gladly hand over hundreds of billions of dollars to the wealthiest people in the world. 

Many of the conservatives I run into have no values or principles. 

My opinion is Musk is posturing to try and get more public money. A principled conservative would oppose that as Tesla has already been given hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies. 

[jm91]

2 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

My point is what I typed. What is YOUR point with the personal attacks?

These are not personal attacks.

You are posting questions. They have no point.

So what is your point about green energy? 

Are you for it or against it? Posting a question does not reveal your position. 

 

[Crazy Alex]

2 minutes ago, jm91 said:

In a previous job I was involved in analysis work for decisions on the economics of building facilities. Taxes is only one of many considerations. 

I have no problem giving public money to support businesses. 

My problem is the pure hypocrisy of many conservatives who whine and anguish about tax funded education etc.. then gladly hand over hundreds of billions of dollars to the wealthiest people in the world. 

Many of the conservatives I run into have no values or principles. 

My opinion is Musk is posturing to try and get more public money. A principled conservative would oppose that as Tesla has already been given hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies. 

Yes, obviously taxes are only one of many considerations. Cost of living and regulations are two other important factors. California fails on those fronts as well.

 

I'm not sure why you're complaining about conservatives. California is run by liberals. Musk gets his money from liberal-supported *green energy* subsidies. Conservatives have little to nothing to do with this topic.

[jm91]

Just now, Crazy Alex said:

Yes, obviously taxes are only one of many considerations. Cost of living and regulations are two other important factors. California fails on those fronts as well.

 

I'm not sure why you're complaining about conservatives. California is run by liberals. Musk gets his money from liberal-supported *green energy* subsidies. Conservatives have little to nothing to do with this topic.

Conservatives seem to hate the success of California and I am amused by their anguish. 

 

Conservative hypocrisy is also fun to point out. Don't you think? 

[Crazy Alex]

1 minute ago, jm91 said:

Conservatives seem to hate the success of California and I am amused by their anguish. 

 

Conservative hypocrisy is also fun to point out. Don't you think? 

I think the topic is Elon Musk being tired of California and wanting to move out of the state like so many other companies have done already. What conservatives "seem to" think about the "success" of California is irrelevant.

 

So let's try to focus.

[jm91]

7 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

I think the topic is Elon Musk being tired of California and wanting to move out of the state like so many other companies have done already. What conservatives "seem to" think about the "success" of California is irrelevant.

 

So let's try to focus.

Musk is posturing so he can beg for more public money. 

Tesla is a technology company and it needs to be close to the technology center of silicon valley. 

The company is possibly putting its workers at risk by demanding they return to work. 

Whether they should or should not is an economic and public health decision. Musk's comments make it sound like he does not care about the safety of  the workers. 

 

And yes I think you should try and focus. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by jm91

[Crazy Alex]

5 minutes ago, jm91 said:

Musk is posturing so he can beg for more public money. 

Tesla is a technology company and it needs to be close to the technology center of silicon valley. 

The company is possibly putting its workers at risk by demanding they return to work. 

Whether they should or should not is an economic and public health decision. Musk's comments make it sound like he does not care about the safety of  the workers. 

 

And yes I think you should try and focus. 

 Well, I can't read Musk's mind. Apparently you can. OK. As for the location of Telsa, your assertion is silly. There are plenty of very good technology companies far away from Silicon Valley. For example, Apple is doing most of its expansion AWAY from California (Colorado and Texas aren't near Silicon Valley).

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/20/tech/apple-austin-campus/index.html

 

So who should we think knows best where to do business? The businesses themselves or you? Not a tough decision.

 

Now about your claim that Tesla is "demanding" workers return to work. Not even the New York Times is making such an allegation:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/08/business/economy/tesla-coronavirus-factory-alameda.html#

 

So on what do you base your claim of Tesla "demanding"? And do you realize people can choose to resign even if your specious claim about "demanding" were true, yes?

 

[jm91]

2 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

 Well, I can't read Musk's mind. Apparently you can. OK. As for the location of Telsa, your assertion is silly. There are plenty of very good technology companies far away from Silicon Valley. For example, Apple is doing most of its expansion AWAY from California (Colorado and Texas aren't near Silicon Valley).

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/20/tech/apple-austin-campus/index.html

 

So who should we think knows best where to do business? The businesses themselves or you? Not a tough decision.

 

Now about your claim that Tesla is "demanding" workers return to work. Not even the New York Times is making such an allegation:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/08/business/economy/tesla-coronavirus-factory-alameda.html#

 

So on what do you base your claim of Tesla "demanding"? And do you realize people can choose to resign even if your specious claim about "demanding" were true, yes?

 

Opening and not following local regulations about public health and possibly firing workers for not going back to work is a form of demanding. 

Ah... lets see your argument is workers should go back to work even if their workplace is breaking local public health rules and if they fear for their safely then too bad get another job.

 

Hmmm.. 

It sounds very much like a Charles Dickens novel. Maybe taxpayers should also defund public education and put the little ones back in the coal mines. Cheaper coal would result - a win win. No one deserves subsidies was your earlier comment so by your logic children from families who can not afford an education should stop being deadbeats and go to work. 

[Crazy Alex]

2 hours ago, jm91 said:

Opening and not following local regulations about public health and possibly firing workers for not going back to work is a form of demanding. 

Ah... lets see your argument is workers should go back to work even if their workplace is breaking local public health rules and if they fear for their safely then too bad get another job.

 

Hmmm.. 

It sounds very much like a Charles Dickens novel. Maybe taxpayers should also defund public education and put the little ones back in the coal mines. Cheaper coal would result - a win win. No one deserves subsidies was your earlier comment so by your logic children from families who can not afford an education should stop being deadbeats and go to work. 

OK, so you admit he wasn't demanding. And where did Musk mention firing workers? It seems you are making very strange interpretations of the actual facts related to the topic.

 

And no, my argument is not that workers should go back to work if they fear for their safety. That is completely dishonest. But as your claim of demanding has crumbled under its own weight, we'll move on from that one.

 

Neither Charles Dickens, nor any of his novels, have anything to do with the topic. And further, you have made dishonest comments about my position on education. I clearly stated I have no problem funding education, but expect results.

 

The fact remains California has driven thousands and likely tens of thousands of businesses away with burdensome regulations, high taxes and high cost of living. It appears Musk may have finally had enough- like so many other businesses before him.

 

I hope we can proceed with the topic at hand with you doing better than make up fairy tales about what I've posted and dragging Charles Dickens novels into it.

 

Nave nice day.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Crazy Alex

[Slip]

2 hours ago, jm91 said:

Opening and not following local regulations about public health and possibly firing workers for not going back to work is a form of demanding. 

Ah... lets see your argument is workers should go back to work even if their workplace is breaking local public health rules and if they fear for their safely then too bad get another job.

 

Hmmm.. 

It sounds very much like a Charles Dickens novel. Maybe taxpayers should also defund public education and put the little ones back in the coal mines. Cheaper coal would result - a win win. No one deserves subsidies was your earlier comment so by your logic children from families who can not afford an education should stop being deadbeats and go to work. 

It sounds like he is arguing against the constructive dismissal laws to me:

 

In California, the California Supreme Court defines constructive discharge as follows:

"In order to establish a constructive discharge, an employee must plead and prove, by the usual preponderance of the evidence standard, that the employer either intentionally created or knowingly permitted working conditions that were so intolerable or aggravated at the time of the employee's resignation that a reasonable employer would realize that a reasonable person in the employee's position would be compelled to resign."^[4]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_States_law

[Crazy Alex]

2 minutes ago, Slip said:

It sounds like he is arguing against the constructive dismissal laws to me:

 

In California, the California Supreme Court defines constructive discharge as follows:

"In order to establish a constructive discharge, an employee must plead and prove, by the usual preponderance of the evidence standard, that the employer either intentionally created or knowingly permitted working conditions that were so intolerable or aggravated at the time of the employee's resignation that a reasonable employer would realize that a reasonable person in the employee's position would be compelled to resign."^[4]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_States_law

Specifically, what did I post that leads you to believe that?

[jm91]

18 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

OK, so you admit he wasn't demanding. And where did Musk mention firing workers? It seems you are making very strange interpretations of the actual facts related to the topic.

 

And no, my argument is not that workers should go back to work if they fear for their safety. That is completely dishonest. But as your claim of demanding has crumbled under its own weight, we'll move on from that one.

 

Neither Charles Dickens, nor any of his novels, have anything to do with the topic. And further, you have made dishonest comments about my position on education. I clearly stated I have no problem funding education, but expect results.

 

The fact remains California has driven thousands and likely tens of thousands of businesses away with burdensome regulations, high taxes and high cost of living. It appears Musk may have finally had enough- like so many other businesses before him.

 

I hope we can proceed with the topic at hand with you doing better than make up fairy tales about what I've posted and dragging Charles Dickens novels into it.

 

Nave nice day.

A factory opening in violation of local rules and if the workers fear for their safety I strongly suspect they will face disciplinary action. That is more than a demand that is an implied threat - IF that is the case. 

No you said no one should get subsidies. I am taking your comments and applying them. 

The fact also remains that thousand and likely 10s if thousands of new businesses start every year in California. Businesses open and close that is capitalism. 

Conservative economist would argue that if businesses are not profitable in California they should leave and make room for new businesses that are forming. 

 

Why not use Dickens as a reference? Many conservatives celebrate a ruthless form of capitalism that resembles a Dickens novel.   

Edited May 10, 2020 by jm91

[Slip]

4 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Specifically, what did I post that leads you to believe that?

This:

 

Quote

And do you realize people can choose to resign

 

[jm91]

6 minutes ago, Slip said:

It sounds like he is arguing against the constructive dismissal laws to me:

 

In California, the California Supreme Court defines constructive discharge as follows:

"In order to establish a constructive discharge, an employee must plead and prove, by the usual preponderance of the evidence standard, that the employer either intentionally created or knowingly permitted working conditions that were so intolerable or aggravated at the time of the employee's resignation that a reasonable employer would realize that a reasonable person in the employee's position would be compelled to resign."^[4]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_States_law

I am not sure who you are referring to but I think workers should expect to work in safe environments.  If the local heath officials deem the factory conditions could spread Covid19 then the responsible thing to do is consult with workers and health officials about how to comply with local laws. Musk does not seem to be doing that...he may not be making those day to day decisions but his public comments make him and the factory managers seem like they don't care about the workers safety. 

[Crazy Alex]

3 minutes ago, jm91 said:

A factory opening in violation of local rules and if the workers fear for their safety I strongly suspect they will face disciplinary action. That is more than a demand that is an implied threat - IF that is the case. 

No you said no one should get subsidies. I am taking your comments and applying them. 

The fact also remains that thousand and likely 10s if thousands of new businesses start every year in California. Sorry your assertions don't stand up to the facts. 

Conservative economist would argue that if businesses are not profitable in California they should leave and make room for new businesses that are forming. 

 

Why not use Dickens as a reference? Many conservatives celebrate a ruthless form of capitalism that resembles a Dickens novel.   

1) We are a nation of laws, not rules.

2) Your suspicion of what you think Musk might do does not constitute a threat. Stick with REALITY.

3) We were talking about corporate welfare subsidies, not funding education. This is the THIRD time I have told you I have no problem funding education. But keep beating a dead horse if it suits you.

4) Businesses are leaving California in record numbers and there is nothing you can do to change that.

https://www.southstarcommunities.com/blog/companies-leave-california-bound-for-texas

Furthermore, thousands of businesses start in any large state each year. The vast majority fail. Straw man argument. Try harder.

5) Tell me about these conservative economists that have made the argument you claim they have. Links, please.

6) Not interested in your Charles Dickens fairy tales. I deal with facts. Isn't time you present some?

 

 

[Crazy Alex]

8 minutes ago, Slip said:

This:

 

 

Now all you have to do is prove the working conditions at Tesla meet the standard you posted. Good luck with that, especially given many large companies have continued to do business in similar conditions without stop. For example, Amazon has 20 fulfillment centers in California. Have any shut down?

 

So no, you've fallen well short of making your case.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Crazy Alex

[Slip]

1 minute ago, jm91 said:

I am not sure who you are referring to but I think workers should expect to work in safe environments.  If the local heath officials deem the factory conditions could spread Covid19 then the responsible thing to do is consult with workers and health officials about how to comply with local laws. Musk does not seem to be doing that...he may not be making those day to day decisions but his public comments make him and the factory managers seem like they don't care about the workers safety. 

I was commenting on the fact that if employees were simply to resign rather than return to an unsafe workplace (as suggested by Crazy Alex), it (the company) would quite rightly run the risk of falling foul of constructive dismissal legislation.