Just Expected Too Much From Thais

[Maigo6]

how much did she take you for pepe?

[Heng]

how much did she take you for pepe?

[terry57]

I can understand what you're trying to say. After living here for nearly three years, I've come to find that the cultural differences between here and home (US) are not as great as I'd once imagined.

People here are often extremely materialistic and superficial, sometimes more than people back in the states. Many people here are obsessed with appearing to be hi-so and rich, with having the right mobile phone, car and luxury condo and blah blah blah.

I thought I'd escape that superficiality by coming here, but sadly I haven't. Now I've come to accept that this attitude exists everywhere in the world, it's just more obvious in some places than others.

yes, well welcome to the real world,

i think what people have to realise and "pepe" in particular, is that the thai's cant go bolting down the social security office when they run out of coin, and expect a dole check to tide them over till the next dole check arrives.

also when they are having a heart attack, there is no national health scheme that will save there arse and pick up the bill.

they have the very hard reality of living in a society where they must pay for everything and recieve nothing for free, except for maybe a bed at the local wat and a bowl of rice if they fall on hard times.

its ok for" pepe " who is making a <deleted> load of money practising medicine and charging exorbitant rates, to raise a subject depicting the thai people as not being true to the buddhist religion and expecting more from there existence.

how can some people expect thais to live a basic life when they are rolling around in green backs. ?

thank you very much.

[qwertz]

A simple rule for life - the less you expect from people, the less you'll be disappointed.

Edited April 18, 2007 by qwertz

[taxexile]

pepe

but I just expected much more

often an express train to disappointment

[girlx]

A simple rule for life - the less you expect from people, the less you'll be disappointed.

yeah, why is that?

Edited April 18, 2007 by girlx

[a2396]

I cannot comment on the Thais buddhism culture

as I am a Catholic and they are the largest hypocrites - JMO

Christian Brothers in the 50's Ireland ...

The best representation of Catholicism in the last 10 years has been 'Father Ted'

Not to mention Pat Robertson....

Pat Robertson is not a Catholic. But, don't forgey Jim Baker & Jimmy Swaggart, to name a few. My Dad always said: "When it comes to money, religion goes out the window". In any case Bhudddism is not exactly a religion by my definition. It is also apparent that this philosophy, with its many avid followers, has little impact on the ethical standards (or lack thereof) found in the general society.

[Pepe']

Again I thought I qualified my post by saying in the beginning this thinking was my mistake and I was naive.

After being around Thailand and Buddhist culture since 1974 I guess I should know better.

Thanks to most of you for your compassionate listening and constructive feedback.

Also thanks to the others who consistently stay true to form in their responses.

For now Thailand will remain my play ground...

[WaiWai]

A conversation held between two Thai's listend in on by someone who speaks Thai fluently , and who then compares that conversation with a conversation held between 2 english speaking people (or German, or French or any other language .....) will find little to no differance in how language is used. In other words, taking the Thai language out of the equation - you could just as well be listening to 2 Germans, or 2 Frenchman speaking - you would percieve no differance, and unless the conversation touched on a cultural subject (e.g. religion, burial ritual, marrige or similar) you would not be able to draw from that conversation the fact that they were Thai any more so than you'd be able to define nationality or cultural practise in respect of a different nationality or culture. You would not know the diff.

Maizefarmer, I am very interested by this response.

Is it based on your own experience, or is there some research on the subject you could refer us to ?

[Pepe']

Pepe; I think thais is not different from other nation if we said about human nature. if you want to know why we have many beautiful temples and monks but we learn only few thing from our religion. pls read http://www.suanmokkh.org/

Maybe his present and thought can make you know why people in this world is not different in human desire.

i would like to advise a book of Arjarn Cha is NO Arjarn Cha, it's a dhamma book and good for reading.

hope you can understand more our thais.

----------------------

Thank you for that site it looks very nice.

I have especially related to the teachings of Buddhasa Biku.

I will spend more time studying this.

[Maizefarmer]

There culture and the practise of Buddhism is as relivant in day to day life for the average Thai, as is culuture and religion to the average Christian in his day to life (and the words Buddhism and Christianity and be replaced with the words Asian and Westerner if you wish - the same thing applies).

The point is: while I see where your argument is coming from, you are as wrong to define the average Thai against the background of the criteria you used, as it would be to define a Westener against the background of Christianity or any cultural practise that applied to the country he came from.

Firstly I think you hugely underestimate the extent to which Buddhism is a part of the life of most Thais.

And secondly I think you underestimate the extent to which Christianity has and still does influence your own Western life. Western law, morality, philosphy, litterature, language and art are all saturated with Christian teaching.

Guesthouse

For the record, I was brought up since childhood (age of 5 onwards) spending at least 4 months during each in Thailand - my father lived and wroked here most of hs working life. Thats a side issue - I'm blowing a trumpet. Back to the subject: I agree with your comment about the role religion, morality, philosophy ect ect plays in one's life. Yes, you are correct - it is more influential in both Westerners and Thai's lives than I think we are aware of.

The point I was making (or at least felt) was that concepts about right and wrong are universal e.g. what Westerners are brought to belive as "honesty" in our culture would be little (if any) different to what a Thai would be brought up to beleive about "honesty". The principal is universal.

My point was, these are principals no more or less, likely to be viewed differently by the average Westerner, than they would be by the average Thai i.e. take 1000 Thais and line them up with 1000 Westerners - statiscally I would think one is going to find little differance between the 2 groups in how they would interpretate "honesty", and it's relivance in how we conduct ourselves. Sure, there will be exceptions amongst each group - but the principal would be understood in much the way.

That was the first part of my point. The second part, was that it was my belief that we often form wrong impressions or attitudes about other nationalities and cultural groups, because we think that these principals are percieved or understood differently by different cultural or national groups. That is where I think people make mistakes, and one of the ways we change (or can change) what we think is by been able to communicate and or understand others as well as we can understand people speaking to us in our own language.

Take 2 Thai girls as an example. We ask each girl the exact same question, or we try to have the exact same conversation with each girl. One replies in English as fluently as we can understand English, and the other struggles. There is a good chance we are going to go away with very different impressions about each girl. Now imagine the same conversation and subject matter, but this time round we can speak Thai as well as they can. Chances are the impression we now have will be different, but with respect to each girl, it will be a lot less different - we are going to be able to see each in much the same light (because we can now relate to them so much better).

Has this better conveyed what I was trying to say. It was not so much that I was disagreeing with you. I was trying to put into an understandable context how understanding and impressions are influenced not by actual differances, but by our ability to communicate.

MF

Edited April 18, 2007 by Maizefarmer

[Pepe']

tons of monks?

one can never have enuff monks.

---------------------------

No never...

[Pepe']

I can understand what you're trying to say. After living here for nearly three years, I've come to find that the cultural differences between here and home (US) are not as great as I'd once imagined.

People here are often extremely materialistic and superficial, sometimes more than people back in the states. Many people here are obsessed with appearing to be hi-so and rich, with having the right mobile phone, car and luxury condo and blah blah blah.

I thought I'd escape that superficiality by coming here, but sadly I haven't. Now I've come to accept that this attitude exists everywhere in the world, it's just more obvious in some places than others.

p---I was going to pm you but I will respond in the open forum especially since I turned off the ignore function to read this.

Here goes a big waste of time.

yes, well welcome to the real world,

p---Raise in a ghetto in Newark, tour of Vietnam living all over the world sometimes I thought I had a rough idea how things worked.

i think what people have to realise and "pepe" in particular, is that the thai's cant go bolting down the social security office when they run out of coin, and expect a dole check to tide them over till the next dole check arrives.

p---Wrong again there is not much in SS for me.

also when they are having a heart attack, there is no national health scheme that will save there arse and pick up the bill.

p---Fortunately I've got health care through the La Jolla VA. Thank God.

they have the very hard reality of living in a society where they must pay for everything and recieve nothing for free, except for maybe a bed at the local wat and a bowl of rice if they fall on hard times.

p---Wrong again. Same here except for health care derived from my time spent in military.

its ok for" pepe " who is making a <deleted> load of money practising medicine and charging exorbitant rates, to raise a subject depicting the thai people as not being true to the buddhist religion and expecting more from there existence.

p---Wrong again. These days I maintain a small family practice most patients I've had since I've been an intern for 16 years. Also remember, much to the disbelief of many when I mentioned it in the AIDS/drugs thread, spent years at the Owen clinic at UCSD in a non-salaried academic appointment. Currently re-credentialing to work for free.

Money is quite tight over the past few years.

When I'm not doing that I take care of the Thai monks regularly here in my office or house calls to the temple or hospitals.

Phrajarn Yantra and Phrajan Presat have been patients of mine here is San Diego

how can some people expect thais to live a basic life when they are rolling around in green backs. ?

p---You are usually wrong just by default. But you never disappoint you are consistent. A rel hero.

thank you very much.

[WaiWai]

Maizefarmer, my question above was sincere.

[Ijustwannateach]

Ironically, Pepe, isn't it a Buddhist tenet that desire is what leads to suffering? So your desire for a more ideal state lead to your suffering on being disappointed... Take things as they come, and don't become attached to them.

[Pepe']

how much did she take you for pepe?

-----------------------------

Now that the sharks are circling. Close to 200 G's. That should for a good for a few laughs for you jokers. Glad I could provide some entertainment.

Her older sister says I have a "soft heart." She says she and her sisters come from a bad family and they have cold hearts.

Is that juicy enough for you.

Money comes and money goes. It seems that there are a limited number of pieces of heart left, at least in my case to go around.

In the ancient Pali texts it is said that," Demoniac men rejoice at the suffering of others."

Soon I will be free...

[ThaiGoon]

Pat Robertson is a Souther Baptist.

[Pepe']

Ironically, Pepe, isn't it a Buddhist tenet that desire is what leads to suffering? So your desire for a more ideal state lead to your suffering on being disappointed... Take things as they come, and don't become attached to them.

----------------------------

Yes, Absolutely excellent, observation and advice. But after 30+ years of study and practice I am just like a child learning to walk.

However I believe my steps are forward...

In the ancient Pali texts it is said that "it is attraction to the form of the woman that keeps us entrapped in the cycle of birth and death."

It is also said, "the desire for sex forms a hard knot in the heart, which is almost impossible to unravel, that keeps us bound up to materialistic endeavors."

I am quite guilty of both...

[qwertz]

A simple rule for life - the less you expect from people, the less you'll be disappointed.

yeah, why is that?

Well, Girlx, hallo and in answer to your reasonable question: the most pleasant surprises in my life were the unexpected kind, unselfish, spontaneous (or loving) gestures from people I've known. The most crushing disappointments came because, like Pepe, I actually expected something in return for my own ostensibly unselfish gesture. My present philosophy puts me back on the pleasant surprise basis. It's very safe not to expect anything.

Edited April 18, 2007 by qwertz

[Pepe']

A simple rule for life - the less you expect from people, the less you'll be disappointed.

yeah, why is that?

Well, Girlx, hallo and in answer to your reasonable question: the most pleasant surprises in my life were the unexpected kind, unselfish, spontaneous (or loving) gestures from people I've known. The most crushing disappointments came because, like Pepe, I actually expected something in return for my own ostensibly unselfish gesture. My present philosophy puts me back on the pleasant surprise basis. It's very safe not to expect anything.

------------------------------

Thanks qwertz. I'm trying to get back on track.

It's nice to see there are some dolphins circling as well. They help to keep the sharks at bay...

[qwertz]

Freedom's worth whatever you have to pay for it, Pepe, even if it's not quite the kind you wanted.

[Pepe']

Freedom's worth whatever you have to pay for it, Pepe, even if it's not quite the kind you wanted.

----------------------------

I know you're right. This pill, sometimes, just seems a little to diffficult to swallow...

[terry57]

I can understand what you're trying to say. After living here for nearly three years, I've come to find that the cultural differences between here and home (US) are not as great as I'd once imagined.

People here are often extremely materialistic and superficial, sometimes more than people back in the states. Many people here are obsessed with appearing to be hi-so and rich, with having the right mobile phone, car and luxury condo and blah blah blah.

I thought I'd escape that superficiality by coming here, but sadly I haven't. Now I've come to accept that this attitude exists everywhere in the world, it's just more obvious in some places than others.

p---I was going to pm you but I will respond in the open forum especially since I turned off the ignore function to read this.

Here goes a big waste of time.

yes, well welcome to the real world,

p---Raise in a ghetto in Newark, tour of Vietnam living all over the world sometimes I thought I had a rough idea how things worked.

i think what people have to realise and "pepe" in particular, is that the thai's cant go bolting down the social security office when they run out of coin, and expect a dole check to tide them over till the next dole check arrives.

p---Wrong again there is not much in SS for me.

also when they are having a heart attack, there is no national health scheme that will save there arse and pick up the bill.

p---Fortunately I've got health care through the La Jolla VA. Thank God.

they have the very hard reality of living in a society where they must pay for everything and recieve nothing for free, except for maybe a bed at the local wat and a bowl of rice if they fall on hard times.

p---Wrong again. Same here except for health care derived from my time spent in military.

its ok for" pepe " who is making a <deleted> load of money practising medicine and charging exorbitant rates, to raise a subject depicting the thai people as not being true to the buddhist religion and expecting more from there existence.

p---Wrong again. These days I maintain a small family practice most patients I've had since I've been an intern for 16 years. Also remember, much to the disbelief of many when I mentioned it in the AIDS/drugs thread, spent years at the Owen clinic at UCSD in a non-salaried academic appointment. Currently re-credentialing to work for free.

Money is quite tight over the past few years.

When I'm not doing that I take care of the Thai monks regularly here in my office or house calls to the temple or hospitals.

Phrajarn Yantra and Phrajan Presat have been patients of mine here is San Diego

how can some people expect thais to live a basic life when they are rolling around in green backs. ?

p---You are usually wrong just by default. But you never disappoint you are consistent. A rel hero.

thank you very much.

so what are you trying to tell us " pepe " ?

you are doing it hard over there in the U.S.A. ?

compared to what many thais have ( which is nothing ) and not to mention your compatriot's in the U.S.A, which many also have nothing, you are living a dream, especially pulling in a medical wage for most of your life, and to say your not is senseless.

we are both in the life saving game, but you are far ahead of myself in the money game considering what a doctor pulls in per annum, and i dont mind saying im doing very well.

and that leads back on to the original topic.

if the majority of thais possessed your financial power, they would be able to be much better buddhists by devoting much more time to there religion.

unfortunatly, there out there working there <deleted> of trying to survive.

when i say this i mean the average thai and not the hi-so's of this country.

thank you very much " pepe ".

[DrFisher]

Hummm.... kind of reminds me of all the "good Christians" I left behind in the USA. People are people they have wants, needs and desires, to be liberated and truly live a Buddhist life takes a special person not everyone can do it which is a large reason Buddhists do not look for converts.

[mark lamai]

well i dunno,

but if you compare the average burmese to the average thai,

the burmese come out way in front in being good and being truly spiritual,

and the burmese Buddhist culture is far more genuine and pervasive than anything i've seen in thailand.

i have come across a few good monks and temples in thailand,

but there are so many more in burma.

thats my impressions.

[onzestan]

But after 30+ years of study and practice I am just like a child learning to walk.

Dear Pepe,

You can study any subject to death. In the real world it is first of all a matter of survival that dictates how you behave. The Buddhist teachings are and have been an invaluable set of guidelines that help and helped a lot of people through adverse times. There isn't a religion in this world that can eradicate human nature completely. We are all fallible to some extent.

You must accept that books are written by man and man is not perfect.

Anyway adapt the guidelines you so admire to real life, and you may find contentment after all.

Goodluck to you

Onzestan

[GuestHouse]

The point I was making (or at least felt) was that concepts about right and wrong are universal e.g. what Westerners are brought to believe as "honesty" in our culture would be little (if any) different to what a Thai would be brought up to believe about "honesty". The principal is universal.

I can think of no single aspect of culture which better expresses the difference between Thai (Hindu-Buddhist) values and Westerners Judeo-Christian values than the 'Honesty'. I don't care to count the number of times, I and westerners I know have had real problems with Thais over Honesty (and I'm not talking being swindled by the low lifes in the bars, rather issues of 'dishonesty' among professional, well educated Thais).

There are also problems with ‘Right and Wrong’ in the absolute sense that it is perceived within Judeo-Christian philosophy as against the Thai way of thinking.

I know I am not alone in the observation that Thais, when caught being dishonest, let us for arguments sake assume a Thai is caught thieving, the response to being caught is ‘I was thieving to help my family (or some other greater good), a trading of right against wrong.

Now I’m not saying that does not happen with Westerners, but it is far more prevalent within Thai society. Moreover, I have been in a number of situations where the official response to a Thai giving this form of excuse is to argue that leniency should be given because the crook was trying to do a good thing. The ends justify the means.

And again, yes that happens in Western culture, but not nearly to the same extent.

My point was, these are principals no more or less, likely to be viewed differently by the average Westerner, than they would be by the average Thai i.e. take 1000 Thais and line them up with 1000 Westerners - statistically I would think one is going to find little difference between the 2 groups in how they would interpret "honesty", and it's relevance in how we conduct ourselves. Sure, there will be exceptions amongst each group - but the principal would be understood in much the way.

As I have said above, I think the issue of 'Honesty' is something that really does straddle the line of cultural difference between Thai and Western Culture.

That was the first part of my point. The second part was that it was my belief that we often form wrong impressions or attitudes about other nationalities and cultural groups; because we think that these principals are perceived or understood differently by different cultural or national groups. That is where I think people make mistakes, and one of the ways we change (or can change) what we think is by been able to communicate and or understand others as well as we can understand people speaking to us in our own language.

Take 2 Thai girls as an example. We ask each girl the exact same question, or we try to have the exact same conversation with each girl. One replies in English as fluently as we can understand English, and the other struggles. There is a good chance we are going to go away with very different impressions about each girl. Now imagine the same conversation and subject matter, but this time round we can speak Thai as well as they can. Chances are the impression we now have will be different, but with respect to each girl, it will be a lot less different - we are going to be able to see each in much the same light (because we can now relate to them so much better).

Has this better conveyed what I was trying to say? It was not so much that I was disagreeing with you. I was trying to put into an understandable context how understanding and impressions are influenced not by actual differences, but by our ability to communicate.

Yes I understand what you are saying, I have observed this tendency to be lead astray by someone who speaks your own language, when we are unable to speak the local language ourselves. As a fluent Thai speaker myself I often observe the misunderstanding non Thai speakers have of some critical issues.

Moreover, I have often argued that to understand the Thais and their culture fully, we must speak the language. One of the principle reasons for this being the ability it gives to get the story from the horses mouth. As I commented in recent discussion on 'Is it Necessary to Speak Thai to Understand Thai Culture', one of the benefits of speaking Thai is to get to the heart of what actually is Thai Culture, rather than what Thais would tell you about their culture.

All of that said, I still maintain that the biggest obstacle to foreigners understanding of Thai culture, is the pack of fables they are willing to swallow, and indeed tell themselves about what Thai culture, morals, religion, philosophy is.

[chonabot]

I don't like the way that this thread is heading.................................................................byebye

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I don't like the way that this thread is heading.................................................................byebye

and I'm with you Chon