After Death

[November Rain]

Apologies if this is a subject covered before, but I wanted to ask specific questions & hope someone can help me out.

My BF (Thai) died a year ago. We had a 5 day ceremony for him & then he was cremated on the 6th day. My first question has to do with this, in a way. The temple room where he was laid for the 5 days had truly horrific murals painted on the walls. For the first 2 days of the ceremony, I was quite sickened by them. They obviously depicted hel_l (a close resemblance to Christian idea of hel_l), with a lot of fire & torture. Very graphic. About 3 days into the ceremony, a Thai friend explained that they were different hells for different sins, one for lust/adultery, one for murder etc & the tortures were presumably supposed to be apt punishment for the sins. What upset me most was that he told me that one of the hells (he showed me which one) was reserved for alcoholics. My BF was an alcoholic & that was one of the things that led to his death. Is this a general belief? I didn't realise hel_l existed in Buddhism. I hate the idea of my BF being condemned to something like that for something he really tried to give up. He was a good person, with a weakness. Do Buddhists believe this is what will happen?

The second question is to do with unusual occurrences. Over the time between my BFs death & cremation a lot of very strange & inexplicable things happened to me & also to his son. I firmly believe they were my BF, and the Thais I talked to did too. I know the Thais have a strong belief in ghosts, is this consistent with the Buddhist faith, or does it come from elsewhere?

My last question regards the present. I have a small urn of BFs ashes & his funeral picture at home. I light a candle & my son & I light an incense stick each for him. How often should I do this? Is there a minimum or maximum? Is there anything special I should do?

Sorry if these questions seem stupid, but I know so little & want to do the right thing for him. Thanks for any advice.

[chownah]

I have studied Theravada Buddhism somewhat and have concentated on what the Buddha actually taught so my answer is from this perspective. There are many types of Buddhism with differing views on some of this stuff so other people may say different things about it....by the way....Thai Buddhism is Theravada Buddhism but many/most of the rituals do not come directly from the Buddha's teachings so I will not comment on them.

Anyway, the Buddha taught that there are many planes of existence and we humans reside on one of them. When we die, if we have not attained enlightenment (in which case we are not reborn again) we will be reborn in one of the planes of existence. There are planes with devas and some with gods and some with ghosts. Some of these existences are very unpleasant and some are very pleasant. The entities that inhabit these planes sometimes have very long life spans (thousands if not millions of years)and sometimes very short. The idea is that just like being a human does not mean that you will be reborn as a human...or even on the same plane as humans but as some other kind of critter, if you are born in the other planes you will not necessarily be reborn there again when you die....so....wherever your BF has been reborn he (maybe he is a she now...who know?) will not be there forever probably but will be reborn again and who knows where that might lead.....

There does exist the concept of dedicating merit. This means that you can do something to create merit and you can send that merit to him....but only if he is reborn in certain places and as a certain type of entity.....most entities on most planes of existence can not receive shared merit from humans....as I understand it. Anyway, I am not very knowledgeable about this kind of stuff as I tend to be most interested in the stuff that helps lead to liberation and this plane of existence kind of stuff is sort of a side track in that regard. If you google around abit you should be able to find a Buddhist forum on the web (there are a few) and find out more there about what the likelihood of being able to dedicate merit to him.

Also, it gets sort of complicated because even though you think of HIM being reborn....it really is no longer him personally. The Buddha taught that our concept of self is an illusory one and there really is no self at all and that our sense of self is just a cluster of beliefs and mental clinging to these beliefs and transcending this false senses of self is one of the major tasks necessary in achieving liberation.

Chownah

Edited April 18, 2007 by chownah

[November Rain]

So, he's not anywhere that I previously understood? He's been reborn somewhere else (I understand on a different plane possibly) already? So the candles etc is possibly more for my benefit than his? How about this hel_l idea? Is that another plane he could have been reborn onto (excuse me using "him", I don't know what else to call him)?

Edit - typo

Edited April 18, 2007 by November Rain

[chownah]

Yeah, according to what the Buddha taught and according to the Theravada approach "he" is reborn immediately with no "intermediate state" (as near as I can tell).

Yes, there are planes of existence that would pretty much fit the description of hel_l...for example there are entities on some plane called "hungry ghosts" whose lives are in constant torment...from what I've read....but again I am not well read on this topic. Let me mention again that it MIGHT be possible to dedicate merit to him if he happened to land on the right plane and as the right type of entity....but I really don't know anymore about it other than according to the Theravada Buddhist Scriptures this is possible.

Don't know about who the candle helps but it seems like you...and probably your son...this is probably an important occurance for him too. I really hope that you will find other advice from other people as my views on this are very limited by my approach to Buddhism and there are alot of people with different views that might be beneficial.

Chownah

[Boo]

I asked my husband about these things & I will try to explain his ideas on a couple of your questions as he is explaining them to me;

In his beliefs, the best things to do with a loved ones ashes is to place them in one of those pagoda style small houses (do you know the ones I mean? he doesn't know english word!) in the temple rather than keep them in your house. His reason was it is a way of releasing your bf's spirit & also as a way to help your bf gain merit to enable him to eventually reach heaven. (he is explaining this in western terms, heaven/hel_l is relative as per chanchaos posts but they do exist in a certain idea in buddhism/thai belief system) By keeping the ashes in the house your bf will never be released & may be "held" by your holding of the ashes. By giving them to the temple they will have a perminant safe home. (he also said that by keeping his ashes if you ever were to get a new bf in future then this may create problems for his spirit)

The lighting of candle & incense is a personal thing but again his belief is that your bfs birth day & anniversay of his death are the most signifigant. Hubby does it on these days for this own dad & also when he cooks a special food & he wants his dad to have it, will place the food in a dish near his photo & light incense & a candle as well as a small opened bottle or glass of whiskey. But generally these candle/incense rituals are personal & hubby also does them for his own benefit on buddha days too but the ones specifically for his dad are done with more care than usual & involve food & drink too.

I will try to get more info in the hel_l thing as he did explain a bit but it's late but rest assured, he was 100% sure that being an alcoholic didn't mean you automatically went to alcoholic hel_l as there is no such thing. The picture if he undertands correctly is to show that when you drink too much you lose control & change to be the bad person, who will shout too much at your mother or wife or children or become voilent but as he explained, no one is just one thing, so although your bf was a drinker he was also a good husband & father & combined with his other virtues would have raised his merit above "just" an alcoholic. Being a thai buddhist involves a complex balancing act between being good or virtuous & being human & flawed so yes, there are various levels of "hel_l" but commiting certain "sins" didn't automatically mean you were destined to be reborn lower or condemned. I hope that makes sense & I will post more when I have asked a few more questions to clear up my own lack of understanding.

[cm-happy]

I'm not an expert, other than I consider myself a devout Buddhist and try to live my life according to the 5 precepts (silla). Devout meaning applying dhamma to my everyday life, going to temple on a regular basis, making tambon, practicing generousity, listening to Dhamma talks and yes even conversing with the English speaking monks and sometimes the Thai speaking. Not to mention getting up early to make offering to Monks during Binderbat (alms rounds).

As for the strange occurances you mention, it might have been the pi (ghost) of your b/f. I did not beleive in that, until I actually saw one in a temple I was staying at for a few days.

in so far as rituals can have 7 day rights and 100 days rights etc, and rights at the annual anniverary of you b/f's passing, or right whenever you feel the need. Or organize a Katin for your or your b/f's local temple at his home village.

If your a Buddhist, might consider, if you have a Buddha room in your residence, making a small shrine with offering tables,Buddha statue, candles, incence , in memory of your b/f

Perhaps you might want to seek out a temple with English speaking Chow Wat (abot) and talk with him about things you might do and making merit for you b/f.

Condolences on the lose of your beloved.

[sabaijai]

In his beliefs, the best things to do with a loved ones ashes is to place them in one of those pagoda style small houses (do you know the ones I mean? he doesn't know english word!)

Sounds like the thaat kraduk (ธาตุกระดูก), or 'bone stupa', a reliquary for the ash/bone remains of temple devotees.

[sutnyod]

Hi,

I have teachers from both Theravada and Tibetan tradition, GOOD ones. That's what makes me feel highly inadequate to explain things. But as this aspect does not seem to have been covered yet, here a try to answer your concern about karma (alcoholism):

all of my teachers explained to me that it is not only your actions that influence your karma, but also the state of mind you are in. Your karma results from imprints, and not from an accounting book of good or bad deeds. So for instance if a basically good person dies, but sees, in his last moment a hated enemy who makes him fly into a rage, he might create such bad karma (STRONG imprint of hatred) that he might be reborn as an animal, although his life of keeping the five precepts might predestine him to "come back" as a person. Only if the bad imprint has faded, the good karma will take over. Karma is not linear! Bad and good karma can be carried over from many former lives. Therefore it is not possible to speculate who is born again as what.

hel_l/heaven and the planes of existence: While it may seem that being born as a human is inferior to being born in the realm of devas, and preferrable to the realm of hungry ghosts, this is not the case. It is only as a human being that we are presented with challenges and opportunities to escape the cycle of rebirths. It cannot be achieved in the other realms.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards

s.

[jumnien]

My sympathies as you grieve your husband's death. It takes a long time. He wasn't a local guitarist around Hua Hin was he?

I was fortunate enough to escape the prison of alcoholism and drug addiction 12 years ago. I'm sorry your husband was not so fortunate, most are not. I do not attribute my good fortune primarily to something I accomplished. It just happened as I dedicated myself to a spiritual path learned at Spirit Rock Meditation Center studying with the likes of Jack Kornfield, Ajahn Jumnien and disciples of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu and daily participation in a 12-step fellowship. My personal belief based on my experience is that in the later stages of alcoholism and addiction the sufferer is indeed inhabiting an alcoholic "hel_l realm" based on the unquenchable thirst for something that is killing him. The cycle of self-harm is very difficult to break, and many others are harmed along the way. Our society as a whole tends to support the disease more than it does the recovery. There are islands of hope however.

My brother died of alcoholism/addiction 4 years ago at age 46. He was a wonderful person and loved by many. I enjoy the Thai and Chinese rituals for acknowledging those who have gone before us into the world beyond this life. It is hard to go on without sharing your deepest joys and pains with someone who you truly loved. For me it is sad that I cannot share the joy of my 2 year old boy with my brother who never had children.

Stay strong and I admire your honesty and openness.

[November Rain]

Thanks for all the replies, but I must confess, I'm even more confused now. I think one of my main problems is that I have no faith or religion, myself. So, I feel that my BFs soul must have gone the way believed by his religion, although, he was by no means devout. It is hard for me to get my head around the idea that his soul may not exist in a way that I would comprehend or recognise anymore - that "he" could be a completely different entity on a whole different plane of existence.

Boo, I'm interested in what your hubby said about the bones should be at the temple. I know how stupid this is going to sound, but I took his bones so he wouldn't be alone. He'd always have me & his son around. He never went to temples, to my knowledge, so I didn't think he'd feel "at home" there & I know how stretched my time is & I'd rarely visit him there, but if he's at home, he's here all the time. I certainly didn't think it might impede his spirit's progress. Now, I'm a bit worried about that. The likelihood of another BF is so small, that I don't think it's a problem.

Thanks for the posts concerning alcoholism & karma specifically. I'm not sure how his karma would have been at his death, as he was in a coma. I do know he was very scared at the possibility of death. I hope his actual passing was good, as I was there & I'd called all of his friends in. My mum was taking care of his son, as I didn't think he should be at his father's death, but they had said goodbye a few hours before, so I hope his karma was good, surrounded by all those that loved him.

mdeland, he wasn't a guitarist, he was a keyboard player in a local rock band.

Thanks everyone.

[Boo]

NR, I will get more info about the bones this weekend & send you a pm. As far as he explained the bones or ashes are not the point, the action of offering incense & lighting candle, saying a few words or thinking about your bf is the important part. BUT the bones need to be housed somewhere permenant & the temple is the best place for them. I will get more specific reasons why this weekend.

The problem with a lot (majority) of thais is that there has been no actual study of their religion (as with most religions actually!), they are just "immersed" in it from birth so therefore follow their own families different patterns or beleif structures. The people who have actually studied buddhism will have a more "pure" knowledge of practices which might not nessecarily follow what a thai from a certain region/town/family will actually do.

So I can understand the confusion but if you have communication with your bf's parents then maybe ask them what they think you should do as they would have been the ones to initially form your bf's beliefs??

[November Rain]

Not possible to speak to the parents, really. His father is dead & he was estranged from his mother as she abandoned him to run off with another man. He hated her & never forgave her. She did come to his 100 day ceremony, but has had no contact with me or her grandchild (his son) since.

[jumnien]

November Rain,

His name wasn't Thep was it? I remember meeting a local musician a few years ago that was struggling with drink. This guy was wonderful and had such a pleasant way about him. I never heard what happened to him. This wasn't your husband was it?

[November Rain]

No, Thep is alive, well & sober. He & his wife (who you probably thought was me) are good friends of mine & they've just moved down to Bang Saphan. Thep is actually the one that explained the murals to me at my BF's funeral. He is a lovely guy & very talented. He's been sober for at least 3 years now.

[jumnien]

Thanks for the update on Thep and yes, I was confused. I'm glad to hear that Thep is doing well.

[Thai-Aust]

When my mum passed away, I had a chance to ask questions to the monk whom I believe is a no-nonsense, good monk. I asked him whether or not all offerings like food that we dedicated to mum will actually passed on to her, where she was at that time, etc.

The monk kindly explained that when someone dies, the soul and spirit still exist for some time until there is a time for them to reborn. No one can say when that time might be. The dedicated offerings may or may not reach that soul but at least it helps spiritually the person who makes offerings.

With the paintings on the wall in the temple, I think it serves the purposes of teaching and warning people to do good merit or they will be in hel_l when they die. To the best of my knowledge, there is no specific class for alcoholics to go after they die. Like someone already mentioned, everyone had done good and bad things in their lives.

Many people keep the ashes of their loved ones at home where there is a special shelf for the urn. Many more people leave the urns in the temples as they believe that this will bring the souls close to the Buddha. It's just a matter of personal choice really. If you rarely or never get anywhere near that temple or it would cause you some difficulties when you want to visit his soul, you may keep the ashes at home close to you. The monks also taught us that do whatever that convenient to us, since in Buddhism it teaches you not to get to attached to anything. It's hard or impossible to not to get attached to someone you love though.

With my mum's ashes, we floated her dissolvable urn in the sea while the monk blessed her spirit for the last time. Every anniversary we make some religious ceremony and dedicated merit to her soul.

Again, with the lighting candles and incense, do when you feel like it and convenient to do so. It doesn't matter how many days or weeks you do it.

My condolences.

[November Rain]

Thank you, Thai-Aust

[chutai]

The sould doesn't exist in Buddhist teachings. In fact it's the thought that's the thinker. As far a rebirth is concerned, there's no real substantive evidence to verify that there is such a thing. Best to concentrate on what you do now will affect the future just as our past actions determine what we are now.

I really do recommend Exploring Karma and Rebirth by Nagapriya as a sensible and historical approach to this very subject- reading this book will help I'm sure.

[November Rain]

Thank you, I'll try to find it. Would I be able to order it in any bookshop, or specialist ones?

[DFCarlson]

Another good book is Buddhism Explained by Lawrence-Khantipalo Mills published by Silkworm books. It's an A to Z book and I have learned a lot from reading it. I picked it up in paperback about a year ago when I first came to Thailand.

[November Rain]

Thank you - my reading list is growing

[bankei]

Hi November

Sorry for your loss.

Orthodox Theravada (The Pali Scriptures) teaches that there is no soul or self (sabbe sankara anatta). People are just made up of components like a chariot is made up of parts. On death everything disolves, but there is a continuation of the person with the last thought moments of one being conditioning the next. Like passing a flame along from one candle to another.

Theravada also teaches there is no intermediate state between death and rebirth - it is instantaneous. It seems Theravada was the only early Indian school to teach this with most others claiming there is an intermediate state. This has been made famous by the Tibetan Book of the Dead (Bardo Thodol) which discribes the 49 days between death and rebirth. The early scriptures are not really clear on the matter, and there is some scriptual evidence that there may be this state.

Anyway, what you will find in Thailand is that not many people or even monks are aware of what is in the scriptures. Most will probably beleive in the soul, and many think the soul hangs around the body until it is cremated. Even then many will beleive they are visited by dead relatives in dreams etc.

I was a monk briefly and a person in the village died and his corpse was brought to the temple. It was very interesting to see what happens. Many monks were rather scared of the 'ghost' being present and the temple dogs were howling all week. The young novices were scared shitless and couldn't be left alone!

[chownah]

There is lots of free reading on the web. A good place to start is accesstoinsight (google it) which covers a wide range of topics or wingstoawakening which focuses more on the Buddha's life and teachings in terms of what it means to follow the Path as described by the Buddha.

Chownah

[lannarebirth]

November Rain,

Many of your questions concerning funeral procedures and soul/rebirth can be answered here:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/whatbelieve.pdf

All are included in the Table Of Contents. I think any of the other books mentioned would be good follow up texts for deeper understanding.

Edited April 22, 2007 by lannarebirth

[November Rain]

Thank you, lannarebirth. The section I read did help answer a lot of my questions (I've added the site to "favourites" so I can read in more depth later). I'm particularly pleased about a small section (tried to copy & paste, but it wouldn't do it) that said it wasn't advantageous to burn the deceased's items to take with them, it was better to give them to the needy. We actually considered cremating his keyboard with him, but gave it to a poor school with a teacher who could teach music, but no instruments, instead. I'm glad that we did the right thing.

One small question though, from what I've read. It said that I can transfer merits to him. The examples of merits given were all human or religion based. I work with sick & injured soi dogs, getting them better, taking care of them etc etc. Does that count as merit, or don't animals count? If my day to day work counts, that would be great, but does it have to be some extraordinary effort?

Thanks to everyone who's answered, I really appreciate it. Thanks for the pm, Boo. Will answer when I have time to write a longer 'text.'

[lannarebirth]

Thank you, lannarebirth. The section I read did help answer a lot of my questions (I've added the site to "favourites" so I can read in more depth later). I'm particularly pleased about a small section (tried to copy & paste, but it wouldn't do it) that said it wasn't advantageous to burn the deceased's items to take with them, it was better to give them to the needy. We actually considered cremating his keyboard with him, but gave it to a poor school with a teacher who could teach music, but no instruments, instead. I'm glad that we did the right thing.

One small question though, from what I've read. It said that I can transfer merits to him. The examples of merits given were all human or religion based. I work with sick & injured soi dogs, getting them better, taking care of them etc etc. Does that count as merit, or don't animals count? If my day to day work counts, that would be great, but does it have to be some extraordinary effort?

Thanks to everyone who's answered, I really appreciate it. Thanks for the pm, Boo. Will answer when I have time to write a longer 'text.'

Of course what you're doing is meritorious work. It's one of the key tenets of Buddhism. See here:

http://www.tibet.com/Eco/eco5.html

I really don't know very much about how one's merit making may be transferred to another, but I'm sure one of the very knowledgable people here does know. Chok Dee.

[chutai]

Thank you, I'll try to find it. Would I be able to order it in any bookshop, or specialist ones?

No, my recomendation is not a specialist book really, but can be ordered through e.g. Amazon. If you have difficulty in obtaining this book please feel free to contact me via PM and perhaps I can maybe help get it for you as I'm back in the UK at present.

Kind regards.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/202-1681264-2867...mp;x=4&y=10

Edited April 24, 2007 by chutai