On 7/17/2020 at 2:39 PM, soalbundy said:

..... on its own citizens. That's a joke right? Firstly the UK is up to its neck in debt, higher covid deaths and a higher financial downturn than any other European country and secondly when was the last time that the UK actually did something for its citizens? VAT will be lowered but you can bet that your income tax will go up just like the inheritance tax, road tax and council tax, it's amazing anybody still lives there.

Very few "real" British people do any more????

1 hour ago, robblok said:

First off, you should look at the corruption in those countries with EU subsidies. Then look at how early the people there retire compared to in the countries that pay for it all. 

Paying for debt is normal if you incur a debt you pay for it. Your attitude towards it shows why we would never ever have common debts with those countries as they are just not honorable. So borrowing together is a big no no. 

I do hope they leave we don't need countries that, let them leave. They won't because they know it will damage them and the gravy train is over.

 

Why would we in the north save and be strict for our people when we give it away to countries that retire earlier and are not strict at all. Sorry just no respect anymore for the South. They had chances enough to change they just don't. Its an attitude problem.

 

Germany like the rest of us just wants to see money we borrowed to the south to be returned as it should. That is why there were threats. 

You have managed to ignore that huge fact that the governments of these countries were forced to indemnify the loans made by banks to private parties. This was a bailout of the banks. It had nothing to do with the fiscal irresponsiblity of those nations' government. In fact the ratios of debt to GDP of Spain and Italy was actually declining at that time.

SPAIN

https://tradingeconomics.com/spain/government-debt-to-gdp

ITALY

https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

 

1 hour ago, cantata said:

This was a bailout of the banks. It had nothing to do with the fiscal irresponsiblity of those nations' government.

You are not being serious now.

 

I hope that's a joke.

 

Are you saying the Greek fiasco was nothing to do with Greece's fiscal irresponsibility?

 

The only reason the German leadership at the time did not want a Grexit was because there was the hope that millions of Euro would eventually be paid back, and of course some in Germany are blinded by ideology when it comes to the EU.

 

Certainly nothing to do with any competitive advantage Germany supposedly gains paying BILLIONS of Euro in free money to Greece et al. Germany did very well before the EU and would do very well without the EU.

6 minutes ago, Logosone said:

You are not being serious now.

 

I hope that's a joke.

 

Are you saying the Greek fiasco was nothing to do with Greece's fiscal irresponsibility?

 

The only reason the German leadership at the time did not want a Grexit was because there was the hope that millions of Euro would eventually be paid back, and of course some in Germany are blinded by ideology when it comes to the EU.

 

Certainly nothing to do with any competitive advantage Germany supposedly gains paying BILLIONS of Euro in free money to Greece et al. Germany did very well before the EU and would do very well without the EU.

I specifically invoked Italy and Spain. Yes. Greece was fiscally irresponsible. Of course, it was fiscally irresponsible before it joined the EU also. It shouldn't have been admitted in the first place. Nor Portugal. But German threats to Greece weren't just about Greece. It was a warning from Germany about what it would do to keep other nations in the Euro. And as for your comment that Germany did very well before the EU and would do very well without  the EU, (I'm assuming you mean the Euro). ..maybe. Who knows? Yours is just an assertion. But we do know that thanks to a currency that's depressed in relation to what a sovereign German currency would be, the Euro gives a big boost to exports by keeping the price of german products lower than they would otherwise be.

15 minutes ago, cantata said:

I specifically invoked Italy and Spain. Yes. Greece was fiscally irresponsible. Of course, it was fiscally irresponsible before it joined the EU also. It shouldn't have been admitted in the first place. Nor Portugal. But German threats to Greece weren't just about Greece. It was a warning from Germany about what it would do to keep other nations in the Euro. And as for your comment that Germany did very well before the EU and would do very well without  the EU, (I'm assuming you mean the Euro). ..maybe. Who knows? Yours is just an assertion. But we do know that thanks to a currency that's depressed in relation to what a sovereign German currency would be, the Euro gives a big boost to exports by keeping the price of german products lower than they would otherwise be.

Okay, we agree on Greece's irresponsibility and the fact it should never have been admitted, though of course they lied and cheated their way in.

 

Are you saying Italy's pensions are not fiscally irresponsible though? Do you know how large Italian pensions are?

 

Almost on Greek levels. And btw, Spanish pensions are also very generous even compared to Germany.

 

And the fact that Germany would do well without the EU and the Euro is not a "maybe", we have been there before, Germany existed before the EU and did very well without the EU and the Euro. Indeed had better growth rates, though admittedly the world economy had a lot to do with that.

 

There is no doubt that Germany would do very well without the EU and the Euro, simply because Germany is Europe's biggest economy and makes some of the best products the world wants to buy, from robots to cars to ovens to washing machines to dryers to kitchen knifes to sports shoes. German products are either world leading or competitive. How could Germany not do well? 

 

Price, well German cars are more expensive than most. Doesn't stop four German car brands being among the five top most sold car brands in the UK.

 

You talk about competitive advantage. You do not talk about the subsidies German taxpayers pay to Polish motorways, Greek schools and hospitals, the EU costs Germany billions and billions of Euros. Every single year. The EU is a major drain on the German taxpayer.