My Thai Builder Wont Finish The Job

[goldy40]

im having my condo refurbished and the thai builder that is doing it has come to a standstill, i chose him because he showed me 3 in my block he had just completed, he lives in my block, his sister runs the restaurant in the block, and he left his photocopied personal details at reception , i got a contract so i would pay in 3 installments ive paid the 2 installments as agreed first one at the start, second one when tiling and ceiling finished and theres 50,000 baht owing , he wants another 20,000 out of the 50,000baht to carry on but when i point out contract says pay the final installment on completion and im reluctant to pay anymore until hes finished he aint been back to do anymore since sonkran and the remaining things hes got to do is quite a lot, it was supposed to be finished april 7th and im due to go home on may 3rd which he knows and in i wont be back for a few months i wondered if there was anything i could do ? anyone got any good advice please?

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Why not speak to Sunbelt Asia? They can help. I guess that you don't need me to tell you not to hand over any more money...

[maprao]

I have to second that! Pay no more money!! Insist that he finishes the work as agreed. Contacting a lawyer would be the next step, however as a last resort as you say "they all live in your building" You want to continue enjoying yourself there. Not "butting heads" with people every time you are in Thailand.

My other observation is that you have paid alot. I just completed 3 payments of 60,000. That was to buil a house! To architect plans and mostly to western standards.

Wish you luck!

[ProThaiExpat]

Stay away from legal hassles, they will only make your life miserable. The condo is where you rest your head, you need to get it done.

Take a chance, give the guy the 20K to continue to work. Another 20k a couple weeks later and the final payment, hopefully if he has finished, and if not, pay him a little more to finish.

When I built my house, my developer ended up paying his sub more than agreed upon as mistakes in work, redoing work not done right and bad estimating made completion of the job at the agreed price impossible.

Getting someone else to complete the job will be very costly. If you are happy with the work done, perhaps paying a little more than anticipated won't be so painful.

Your peace of mind is worth a lot.

Getting lawyers involved in the middle of a remodeling job is insanity.

[bkkmadness]

And what happens if he gets the 20 K and still doesn't finish the job? Perhaps he demands the rest of the payment before he finishes it. Perhaps he demands the rest of the payment and goes down the pub.

He's an adult, hold him to his contract.

Perhaps find someone else to finish the job instead?

[technocracy]

First off, forget the dates he gave - the 'estimated' dates given by most builders in this region are mainly flights of fantasy!

Next, the big problem you have really is that you are not actually there to crack the whip and demand he gets more people or check what they are doing.

Has he given any reason to why he wants the 20k? Without knowing this I can only guess that like ThaiProExpat states he might need the money to pay workers/subs.

Personally in this situation I wouldn't get lawyers involved yet you need to reason with the guy why give offer him 10k now from the 20k he wants on the basis that he start work again tomorrow and agree that when he has done x,y,z (whatever work you consider most important) then you'll give him the remaining 10k. If he doesn't agree then it's time to consider using lawyers - but just waving a contract and point at figures won't get anything done. Yes contracts are there to protect you but the thing is if the work is finished and you don't pay anymore than the contract states what's the problem?

I also agree with ThaiProExpat that estimations aren't always the best also they normally use the money to pay the sub-contractors so if they haven't got money then no work will be done.

[Jai Dee]

Stay away from legal hassles, they will only make your life miserable.

Perhaps find someone else to finish the job instead?

I agree with the above, however if you're leaving on May 3 then you won't be around to supervise the remaining work if it's done by your original contractor or another.

Do you have anyone else you know and trust enough to look after the work for you?

If not, it may be best left alone until you return.

Do not be held to ransom by the builder. If he's short of funds to pay his workers maybe a token 10-15 thousand baht could be offered to keep him going, but you (or your delegate) needs to be here to ensure the work is ongoing.

[samtam]

It's the same old same old, I'm afraid. Songkran usually puts a kybosh on all building work, and takes them an age to get back on track. If you want it finished, and he's done a reasonable job, I think you should pay. It's not a lot of money, (IMO). Getting new contractors especially when you're away is a dodgy do.

[SamSipEt]

As an alternative tell him you are leaving Thailand for a bit and will discuss it further on your return. IMO it could turn into a disaster if you are not around to check on progress if work recommences.

[chownah]

It is too late now but I offer a word to those who are now or will be negotiating contracts for house building: People always want to include staged payments that go along with the progress on the house, which is good, BUT, they never seem to remember that they really should be clearly stating what will happen if things aren't going according to plan. A good contract will not only say what the contractor must do but it also says what will happen and what are the obligations for the contractor and the owner in the event that all does not go well. This is often called a NON-PERFORMANCE section of clause.....it should define clearly varioius non-performance scenerios (first (second,third,fourth) stage not completed on time, work not done properly, materials not as per contract, etc.) and how they will be handled. To do this both parties must actually discuss things going badly!!!...and most people don't like to think about these things and especially contractors who are alway late or screwing up don't want it clearly spelled out what will happen if/when they screw up.

For instance, if the OP doesn't come to a clear and documented agreement to end the existing contract...and leaves...then if the contractor comes back and continues work.....will the owner be obligated to pay the contractor?....or is the contract over and the owner is now free to hire someone else?....if the owner hires someone else and they finish the house can the contractor come back and demand payment too saying that his contract is still valid and since the work is now finished he should get paid too?....believe it or not if a contractor's contract is still valid and you pay to finish the work using someone else the original contactor has a really good legal case that he should be paid too......this confusion can be avoided by stating in the contract how and when the contract is terminated...usually be either successful completion of all work and payment...or by early termination due to non-performance or through an agreement process involving the contractor and the owner as spelled out in the original agreement.

Now I know that most readers have no contract writing experience so I'm not expecting that they will be able to create the perfect contract (if such a thing exists) but I'm just trying to give some ideas so that they might consider something in a contract about 1. non-performance and how that is determined and handled, and 2. how the contract can be terminated.

Chownah

[taxexile]

im having my condo refurbished and the thai builder that is doing it has come to a standstill, i chose him because he showed me 3 in my block he had just completed, he lives in my block, his sister runs the restaurant in the block, and he left his photocopied personal details at reception ,

i dont know how things work in your condo , but in mine , a builder has to be approved by the juristic persons office and they have to leave a financial bond with the office before starting any work , to cover any damage they might do to the common parts of the building during the work.

i would avoid lawyers , that will just make matters worse at this stage , but would try to get the juristic office to mediate this dispute. if the builder is known to the office , then they should be able to advise you as to his honesty , and perhaps you could also speak to the owners of the other units he renovated and see if their contracts went smoothly or not.

if the 20,000 he needs is to buy materials , then ask for a list and buy them yourself and supply him with them as and when he needs them.

he might have songkhran related debts to pay off and is looking to you for the advance.

naturally , make him wait a month or two for the final payment after completion.

[billaaa777]

Wow, what a shock, a first time builder gets ripped off by a Thai contractor. Amazing, of course he fails to mention he selected the cheapest person he could find, doing absolutely no research at all. And you have too know he wanted quality second to none, and for some reason just could not understand why he was not getting it.

And what’s even better is his response to this comment, where he states he selected the most expensive contractor he could find that had great references, and he only uses the best materials and suppliers.

I am so surprised!!!

[goldy40]

heres an update, i met up with him today i kept it civil and polite, he reckons his labour is still in the village after sonkran and he needs to pay for them to come down and pay them some wages so i agreed to give him 10000 baht instead of the 20000 he originally wanted to get them back and get it finished , he says work will resume on friday or monday and take another 2 weeks ,worst scenario i drop another 10000 or maybe he is honest and has a genuine cash flow problem and stays true to his word, check back soon for further updates. thanks for replies up to now some good advice, to answer a couple of points, there was a bond left with the office along with his personal details i had to pay it and i get it back when he finishes , and i had 4 quotes , 3 thai and 1 english i didn,t pick the cheapest nor the most expensive , i picked the one whose work i saw in 3 other condos and so far the work hes done is very good , and its not costing 3 x 50000 equal installments the first two payments were slightly more than that but if he does finish it will be worth every penny

[samtam]

Sounds sensible to me. I had similar issues doing mine....the delay after Songkran. I think that's pretty standard. Better to keep him onside, rather than cause a ruction. I know you feel he has you over a barrel, but isn't it the same with tradespeople anywhere? Thailand is no different. Try and get someone you trust and who will look out for your interests to make sure he completes asap, if you're not going to be in Thailand before it's finished. I tried the same, but unfortunately the guy I asked didn't really bother, and I returned to the finishing touches, (well one or two more days), from UK, from the airport, jet-lagged and very very p-o'd. Good luck!

Edited April 24, 2007 by samtam

[taxexile]

there was a bond left with the office along with his personal details i had to pay it and i get it back when he finishes

hope it all works out for you.

but these bonds are supposed to be paid by the builder , to guarantee that any damage or mess he and his crew make is put right. the customer should never put down a bond for the builder , you could end up paying for his carelessness and any damage he does. it would only take one large plate glass door or window in the foyer to be broken by one of his dozy crew as he carries out a ladder , and you could be severely out of pocket.

[ProThaiExpat]

1. Bet your glad now you didn't follow the "get a lawyer" advice.

2. If your builder is a small time local, if he had to put the bond up, your price quote would have been higher.

3. Work with the guy, even paying a little more than agreed on ,it is worth it, as any replacement guy will really hit you hard on costs to finish someone else's work.

4. Your job progress sounds fairly typical, nothing to get bent out of shape about.

5. Taking an adversarial role with any remodeling contractor usually ends up in disaster for the owner.

6. Someday, I might publish my collection of over 100 "Contractor excuses" so homeowners can just ask the contractor when he calls, "what number excuse are you using today?" and not have to listen to the b.s. all over again.

[technocracy]

heres an update, i met up with him today i kept it civil and polite, he reckons his labour is still in the village after sonkran and he needs to pay for them to come down and pay them some wages so i agreed to give him 10000 baht instead of the 20000 he originally wanted to get them back and get it finished , he says work will resume on friday or monday and take another 2 weeks ,worst scenario i drop another 10000 or maybe he is honest and has a genuine cash flow problem and stays true to his word, check back soon for further updates. thanks for replies up to now some good advice, to answer a couple of points, there was a bond left with the office along with his personal details i had to pay it and i get it back when he finishes , and i had 4 quotes , 3 thai and 1 english i didn,t pick the cheapest nor the most expensive , i picked the one whose work i saw in 3 other condos and so far the work hes done is very good , and its not costing 3 x 50000 equal installments the first two payments were slightly more than that but if he does finish it will be worth every penny

See simple ain't it!

Good Luck with it!

[t.s]

I have to second that! Pay no more money!! Insist that he finishes the work as agreed. Contacting a lawyer would be the next step, however as a last resort as you say "they all live in your building" You want to continue enjoying yourself there. Not "butting heads" with people every time you are in Thailand.

My other observation is that you have paid alot. I just completed 3 payments of 60,000. That was to buil a house! To architect plans and mostly to western standards.

Wish you luck!

please post pictures of this 180,000 baht "house" and define "mostly to western standards".

[maprao]

I have to second that! Pay no more money!! Insist that he finishes the work as agreed. Contacting a lawyer would be the next step, however as a last resort as you say "they all live in your building" You want to continue enjoying yourself there. Not "butting heads" with people every time you are in Thailand.

My other observation is that you have paid alot. I just completed 3 payments of 60,000. That was to buil a house! To architect plans and mostly to western standards.

Wish you luck!

please post pictures of this 180,000 baht "house" and define "mostly to western standards".

Yes I had better clarrify my post. The 3 x 60,000 were payments made purely to the builder who hired help as required. So it would better be defined as "labour cost". The materials were purchased by me as required by the builder. I therefore avoided any "mark up " he might of added to the material costs, about 900,000 Baht.

"Western standard" would be things like fully tiled nice western toilets and bathrooms. Electrical Installation completed with 2.5mm earthed cable to sockets 1.5mm for lighting circuits. Electrical installation protected by both RCD and circuit breakers. Strong Doors and locks all made from"Teak Wood" . High wood plasterboard ceiling with attic made to accomodate extra room. Western kitchen ie sink cupboards etc. I doubt it will be used as my wife intends to cook outside!!!

I guess my main point was directed at labour costs here.

[maprao]

Oh yeah with ref to the above the original plans came from the free Thai government site discussed here on another topic in the forum. The original plans being modified to suit our needs. The plan drawing was as below.

[chachachacha]

Well mate i hope you have better luck than i had .I got the same shit of my builder a guy called charlie from Pattaya.I listened to the sob story that he had no money only because the air con men was fitting the equipment on the day that he asked for 30,000 baht over the price that was agreed.Then i told him he was not getting a baht more than agreed on.2 hours later the air con men said that they will finish the next day & went.The next day they didn't turn up & when phoned they said they haden't been payed by the builder.So then he phoned & asked if he could talk to me.He came in pleading how sorry he was but if i give him 16000 he will get everything finished & for the 16000 he would do all the extra work that i had disscussed with him previously.I was being held to ramsom under the threat that the air con men would not come back untill they where payed.So i agreed to the 16000 but i told him that i would not pay him untill the air con was fitted & working.They came back & done it & i made a point Of asking if they had been payed in full which of course was yes .Then he turned up after they had left & i told him where to go .Needless to say he didn't get a satang out of me & i got new workers in to finish the other bits at alot less than 16000.The guys no is 0890969025 if ever anybody needs a builder i advise you not to get in touch with him .His cards are scattered all over Pattaya under different names but the same no so make a note of it & avoid