Recognition For 'third Sex'

[george]

Recognition for 'third sex'

BANGKOK: -- Homosexual rights groups are calling for official recognition of the so-called "third sex" in the new constitution.

Nathee Thirarojanapong, president of the Thai Political Gay Group, said the clause guaranteeing equal rights for men and women should also include the phrase "and people with other sexual conditions and preferences".

The so-called "third sex" includes gays, lesbians, transvestites and cross-dressers.

"This would genuinely guarantee the rights of all people," said Nathee, who said gay groups were optimistic about the charter.

--TNA 2007-04-24

[rainman]

Something tells me whoever is pushing for a "third sex" can't distinguish between sexual preference and gender. Unfortunately, there are only two genders for every race in this world, female and male. Being gay, lesbian or cross-dresser has nothing to do with genders.

[britmaveric]

And I thought the 3rd sex was transgendered?

[farang prince]

And I thought the 3rd sex was transgendered?

It is.

[Dupont]

Something tells me whoever is pushing for a "third sex" can't distinguish between sexual preference and gender. Unfortunately, there are only two genders for every race in this world, female and male. Being gay, lesbian or cross-dresser has nothing to do with genders.

Your remarks are very un PC and you really shouldn't be peddling truth like this.

Other than perhaps a few unfortunate people with birth defects, we all have our very clearly defined role in re-production. Surely we don't need to draw them a diagram do we!

Couldn't this be put in the gay section as scorn is going to be poured on anybody that doesn't support these cranks! Were all soon going to be described as homo-phobic or some other crap, the heat will rise on the debate and people will be threatened with holidays for daring to suggest that it isn't normal behaviour for a man to wear a dress and ride round the beach front all night screaching "hello sexy man"!

[John K]

A very interesting topic. If it happens I imagine it could lead to some sort of discrimination. There are only two types of restrooms male and female and they could be denied access. This may sound like a joke or a jab but it is a reality as far as I can see. Be carful what you ask for as you just may get it.

[PeaceBlondie]

Before you can have a rational discussion, you need to define terms, and we aren't there yet.

Of course, physically and anatomically, there are only two genders, and hermaphroditism is extremely rare. So, of course we're also talking about preferences: how we wish to behave.

Anybody who thinks that sexual identity or function is limited to reproduction, is parroting the insane ramblings of some Catholic priests who just didn't understand. That's my humble opinion as a gay father of many children.

To my humble and limited misunderstanding of the phrase, transgendered means somebody who's had their sex organs changed. Transvestite means wearing clothing of the opposite gender, so the English press release is repeating itself (or is poorly translated) to say "transvestites and cross dressers." Perhaps they meant to say, in Thai or English, "transgendered or cross dressers."

Of course, the stereotype of the Thai katoey as a high-pitched, hip-swinging over-actor is a caricature of its own parody. Lots of gay, feminine Thai men are femme without being so extreme, and lots more gay Thai men (like my partner) are almost indistinguishable from the straight Thai man, in public.

More on topic: does the new constitution need a statement about protecting the rights of men and women to be less "male" or less "female" than the commonly accepted roles? Do lesbians and gay men need constitutional protection?

We can discuss this without getting holidays from posting. However, the general forum rules still apply.

[hammered]

If I remember correctly the old 1997 constitution included quite strong non-discriminatory language in terms of sex and protection without defining sex.

[jumnien]

As soon as the "third sex" successfully is officially recognized, the "fourth and fifth sexes" will be out on the street protesting about violations of human rights. My Dad is gay and believe me, he is a man, through and through. The last thing he'd want is too be lumped in the same category as lesbians, transexuals and katoeys.

[jbowman1993]

As soon as the "third sex" successfully is officially recognized, the "fourth and fifth sexes" will be out on the street protesting about violations of human rights. My Dad is gay and believe me, he is a man, through and through. The last thing he'd want is too be lumped in the same category as lesbians, (?!?) transexuals and katoeys.

You're kidding me right????

Edited April 24, 2007 by jbowman1993

[taxexile]

the "fourth and fifth sexes" will be out on the street protesting about violations of human rights.

if every one with a sexual preference and /or condition other than straight heterosexuality demanded rights and restrooms then men who wear nappies , foot fetishists , toolbox toting feminists and foreskin mangling masochists will all be out there demanding something or other.

keep it in the bedroom folks , and then nobody will trouble anybody else into prejudicial behaviour and intolerant attitudes.

Edited April 24, 2007 by taxexile

[kmart]

This thread is taking a turn into the surreal...

[PeaceBlondie]

keep it in the bedroom folks , and then nobody will trouble anybody else into prejudicial behaviour and intolerant attitudes.

That's a good idea, if you mean to keep one's prejudicial attitudes and behaviour private. But when I was acting straight, it never occurred to me to leave out all mention of my wife and kids. When the guys made some bawdy joke (heterosexual or homophobic), I wasn't shocked and might even have laughed. I'm still afraid to tell Christians 'my boyfriend was cooking dinner last night when...."

[rainman]

Your remarks are very un PC and you really shouldn't be peddling truth like this.

Other than perhaps a few unfortunate people with birth defects, we all have our very clearly defined role in re-production. Surely we don't need to draw them a diagram do we!

Couldn't this be put in the gay section as scorn is going to be poured on anybody that doesn't support these cranks! Were all soon going to be described as homo-phobic or some other crap, the heat will rise on the debate and people will be threatened with holidays for daring to suggest that it isn't normal behaviour for a man to wear a dress and ride round the beach front all night screaching "hello sexy man"!

How are my remarks homophobic? I never said I didn't respect people for their sexual preference, but what the thread title says, someone appears to be asking for a "third sex" for homosexuals, lesbians, etc. What I'm saying is that there's female or male, no third sex. Whether a man dressing as a woman and calling himself female or the other way around, she/he will still either way be female or male. Being homosexual or lesbian doesn't make someone a "third sex", its simply a sexual preference.

[taxexile]

i see your point pb , and i suspect we have had this discussion before.

it is , i'm afraid , a cross that those with minority interests , conditions and preferences will have to bear until there is universal tolerance in this world.

something which will , in reality , probably never happen.

but subtlety , delicacy , tact and discretion will always be the smart option and will win out over loud demands and "in your face flaunting" or even "innocent mention" in those parts of the world or in those sections of society where difficulties and disapproval are encountered.

Edited April 24, 2007 by taxexile

[farang prince]

Your remarks are very un PC and you really shouldn't be peddling truth like this.

Other than perhaps a few unfortunate people with birth defects, we all have our very clearly defined role in re-production. Surely we don't need to draw them a diagram do we!

Couldn't this be put in the gay section as scorn is going to be poured on anybody that doesn't support these cranks! Were all soon going to be described as homo-phobic or some other crap, the heat will rise on the debate and people will be threatened with holidays for daring to suggest that it isn't normal behaviour for a man to wear a dress and ride round the beach front all night screaching "hello sexy man"!

How are my remarks homophobic? I never said I didn't respect people for their sexual preference, but what the thread title says, someone appears to be asking for a "third sex" for homosexuals, lesbians, etc. What I'm saying is that there's female or male, no third sex. Whether a man dressing as a woman and calling himself female or the other way around, she/he will still either way be female or male. Being homosexual or lesbian doesn't make someone a "third sex", its simply a sexual preference.

Rainman, you don't know Thai history. The "third sex" has been recognized in Thailand for well over a century. These are people who are transsexual (they didn't have transgendering back in the day). This might offend the cultural biases that you brought from your native country, but there it is. Thailand has long had a history of acceptance of homosexuality and transsexualism. However, they do not recognize same-sex marriages. My ladyboy and I went to Canada in order to get our civil union officially sanctioned. I did this as a sign of commitment and for the legal protection that she can have in the future. We also happen to love each other. I'm sure these were the same reasons you and your wife got married. Right?

[jasreeve17]

Your remarks are very un PC and you really shouldn't be peddling truth like this.

Other than perhaps a few unfortunate people with birth defects, we all have our very clearly defined role in re-production. Surely we don't need to draw them a diagram do we!

Couldn't this be put in the gay section as scorn is going to be poured on anybody that doesn't support these cranks! Were all soon going to be described as homo-phobic or some other crap, the heat will rise on the debate and people will be threatened with holidays for daring to suggest that it isn't normal behaviour for a man to wear a dress and ride round the beach front all night screaching "hello sexy man"!

How are my remarks homophobic? I never said I didn't respect people for their sexual preference, but what the thread title says, someone appears to be asking for a "third sex" for homosexuals, lesbians, etc. What I'm saying is that there's female or male, no third sex. Whether a man dressing as a woman and calling himself female or the other way around, she/he will still either way be female or male. Being homosexual or lesbian doesn't make someone a "third sex", its simply a sexual preference.

I thought that Dupont was using sarcasm to support your point.

We love all sorts here in Thailand, and good luck to everyone.

Please note - There are two sexes; male and female. Some males may behave differently to others. Some females may behave differently to others. Some females may become males, and some males may become females. Up to them, and good luck to them.

Nothing changes the basic biological truth; they're two sexes - males and females.

[Flysiam]

here in Thailand, and good luck to everyone.

Please note - There are two sexes; male and female. Some males may behave differently to others. Some females may behave differently to others. Some females may become males, and some males may become females. Up to them, and good luck to them.

Nothing changes the basic biological truth; they're two sexes - males and females.

All true - EXCEPT - some females DO NOT become males, and some males DO NOT become females. Some females may change their appearance and appendages to LOOK and maybe act like males; some males may change their appearance and appendages to look and act like females - but you cannot change their sex. I have never heard of a plastic surgeon that was able to do anything with chromosomes. There are two sexes and some that try to make them look like the other - for whatever reason. That part I will not debate.

[jumnien]

As soon as the "third sex" successfully is officially recognized, the "fourth and fifth sexes" will be out on the street protesting about violations of human rights. My Dad is gay and believe me, he is a man, through and through. The last thing he'd want is too be lumped in the same category as lesbians, (?!?) transexuals and katoeys.

You're kidding me right????

I'm kidding no one!

[kmart]

Didn't they have a "third sex" on Spock's planet in Star Trek?

[AlexLah]

I agree that there are only two type of gender male and female.

But I think what Thailand should do is making it possible for transgenderd people to change their gender in their passport

so that they can marry and have the same rights and protection as genetic genders.

I know a few transgendered (male to female) most of them have normal jobs and live a normal life and are humans, just like all of us.

But when you hear some stories about how often they get discriminated in Thailand.

Let me give you some examples.

When a TG (MF) gets raped they cannot file a complaint for rape as in Thai law males cannot be raped (I cannot confirm as I do not know Thai law but this was told to me).

I once wanted to go to a certain disco with a TG friend of mine but she was refused after seeing her ID card and they found out she was a TG.

No she was not a BG and did not even look like one.

So I say come Thailand be a bit more modern and start looking at and follow for example the Dutchies with their very openminded approach on same sex marriage.

I think that it would be even insulting for Transgendered people to be called: "a third sex"

Am I now going to have housearrest for my opinion.........

[steveromagnino]

clearly some of you could do with learning some very very basic Thai to understand why it is referred to as the '3rd gender.'

sao bprapaet sorng

literally means the 2nd type of woman, which is referring to katoeys/ladyboys/transexuals, 'women' that have male chromosomes (ie. were born a man).

Are they actually a male? Yes, at a DNA level, despite the drugs and hormones and surgeries, they were born a man (except in a few rare cases). But they believe themselves to be woman born into a man's body, and hence go through a process of changing to effectively become a woman.

In some stages this would make them a sissy sort of a man, a masculine woman or a very feminine woman. But it would be extremely rare for Thai people not to be able to determine that they are indeed a 'sao bprapaet sorng' on the basis of appearance alone (and also paperwork) and with that comes some awkward moments in bathrooms, ID cards (which still for the most part show them as a man), military service (most get discharged for mental illness) and no doubt other things that as a non-gay non-transexual I would be unable to notice or know.

As far as I am concerned, they should be able to secure certain rights which currently they do not have access to. Whether gays have the same issues to deal with I have no idea; my guess is the two groups have some very different issues to fight for. For instance, as it stands now I cannot understand why any gay should not be forced to do military service like the rest of us. A better debate would be whether we should have compulsory military service at all.

Regarding the so called media stereotype, obviously the gays who behave rampantly 'gay' and sao bprapaet sorng in the same way attract the most attention. The ones who look like they are straight (and to be honest, it isn't hard to spot gay Thai people at all; they are for the most part pretty open about it or have giveaways in speech and mannerisms) are assumed to be straight; therefore is it any wonder that the 'gayness' element gets played up so much in the entertainment industry???

Given the vast number of gay people in that industry it is unlikely that this is some sort of conspiracy IMHO; rather I see it as a fair reflection of the gay people who work in entertainment; most of them actually are fairly close to the characters they play in soap operas and on game shows. p Ma, Looknam, p A, p B, etc - all pretty much play themselves! If there is any sort of an issue, it would be much appreciated if the gay community could sort it out themselves rather than fooling themselves this is 'how the straight people want to potray us', and playing up some sort of conspiracy theory.

The directors are often gay. The producers are often gay. The writers are often gay. The actors playing gays are almost always gay. The behind the scenes people include a large number of gays. What people choose to put on TV is not just a reflection of consumer taste, rather they shape consumer taste as much as reflect it.

[Ijustwannateach]

To add to the familiar line of argument between Taxexile and PB: It is partly the exposure of injustice- which requires that a certain segment of the gay community does not simply "play it straight"- that leads to greater tolerance in the world. The "same as us" group gets bigger, and suddenly we don't have slavery, disenfranchisement of women, or forced religious instruction in schools.

From my point of view, though, we shouldn't have 3 types of toilets- we should just make all people comfortable with using the toilet in one shared facility. We all do it, after all. But that would require an atmosphere in which women didn't feel threatened by men (and in which men didn't feel threatened by gays).

One of the rights which certain transsexuals and transvestites are asking for is- if asked not to perform in military service- not to be labelled as mentally insane as a result.

"Steven"

[Dupont]

Your remarks are very un PC and you really shouldn't be peddling truth like this.

Other than perhaps a few unfortunate people with birth defects, we all have our very clearly defined role in re-production. Surely we don't need to draw them a diagram do we!

Couldn't this be put in the gay section as scorn is going to be poured on anybody that doesn't support these cranks! Were all soon going to be described as homo-phobic or some other crap, the heat will rise on the debate and people will be threatened with holidays for daring to suggest that it isn't normal behaviour for a man to wear a dress and ride round the beach front all night screaching "hello sexy man"!

How are my remarks homophobic? I never said I didn't respect people for their sexual preference, but what the thread title says, someone appears to be asking for a "third sex" for homosexuals, lesbians, etc. What I'm saying is that there's female or male, no third sex. Whether a man dressing as a woman and calling himself female or the other way around, she/he will still either way be female or male. Being homosexual or lesbian doesn't make someone a "third sex", its simply a sexual preference.

I was agreeing with you and being sarcastic about the PC crowd that are driving this!!

What you say is absolutly the truth, bit its not what they want to hear.

[Ijustwannateach]

Yes, of course. It's obvious that sexuality is very simple, boy-girl, thing- for reproduction only. Just like it's obvious that people with different shades of skin shouldn't mate and sex should always be in the missionary position. You'd have to be crazy to think that 20th century English-speaking bourgeouis folk-psychological views on sexuality would ever require any changes at all; they're now a mainstay of the scientific canon in all countries, and all other historic or scientific evidence of any variety has been summarily defeated. Heck, and don't get me started on the *metric* system..... it's way PC. Are you guys fellow members of the Flat-Earth society like me?

"S"

[cobra]

It may come down to the simple catch-all Unisex.

Restrooms are already going that way.

[rainman]

Rainman, you don't know Thai history. The "third sex" has been recognized in Thailand for well over a century.

First of all, I may not know as much about Thai history, but I certainly know about biology. And what I know is that there's 2 sexes on this planet for all species, female and male. This has nothing to do with sexual preferences (being gay, lesbian, etc.), which I fully respect. If you love someone of a different sex, fine with me. If you love someone of the same sex, fine with me too.

What I don't understand is why there's a need to create a "third sex". We have female and male, what do we need? Calling a transsexual a "third sex" instead of a female will most certainly offend them. Calling a gay man a "third sex" instead of a man will most certainly also offend them. And are you going to call a lesbian woman a "third sex" instead of a woman?

See my point? What do we need a "third sex" for?

[rainman]

Nathee Thirarojanapong, president of the Thai Political Gay Group, said the clause guaranteeing equal rights for men and women should also include the phrase "and people with other sexual conditions and preferences".

As good as this guy's intentions may be, he just doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. The constitution includes women and men. The way he's putting it is he puts gays, lesbians and transsexuals in a different pot and calls them neither women or men. The government is fully right if they simply put "women and men" in the constitution, because that's what we after all are, no matter what sexual preferences we have.

[ThaiGoon]

Lots of gay, feminine Thai men are femme without being so extreme, and lots more gay Thai men (like my partner) are almost indistinguishable from the straight Thai man, in public.

And you told me in the other thread that you were a father of six children. So was it you or your partner who gave birth to those kids? (Guess my speculation to the reason why you have to stay in Thailand in stead of going back to the US, "land of the free", was correct after all. By the way, I'm not saying or implying that there's anything wrong with that. I just really understand it now that not everyone is staying in Thailand because they love the country. Some just got stuck and aren't really welcome back at home.) Sorry for going off topic.

Edited April 24, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[cdnvic]

And you told me in the other thread that you were a father of six children. So was it you or your partner who gave birth to those kids?

For someone who chides others about their intelligence as often as you do, you missed a very big clue a few posts back.