Recognition For 'third Sex'

[rainman]

Yo Rainman,

Don't be so hard on Farang Prince na.

He is fighting for the 'third sex' so he does not have to think he is gay ore not.

I guess he is strugling with that feeling now.

"Gay or not" would be bisexual. I think both female or male bisexuals would rather be called women or men than "third sex" as well, just like transsexuals. Lets face it, we're people, women and men, regardless of our sexual orientations. And that's all (going back to the origins of the thread) I believe should be included in the constitution. Simply people.

[mikethevigoman]

Recognition for 'third sex'

BANGKOK: -- Homosexual rights groups are calling for official recognition of the so-called "third sex" in the new constitution.

Nathee Thirarojanapong, president of the Thai Political Gay Group, said the clause guaranteeing equal rights for men and women should also include the phrase "and people with other sexual conditions and preferences".

The so-called "third sex" includes gays, lesbians, transvestites and cross-dressers.

"This would genuinely guarantee the rights of all people," said Nathee, who said gay groups were optimistic about the charter.

--TNA 2007-04-24

About time they had their own toilet !

[mikethevigoman]

could this be the answer ?

Was the question "was the curry hot "

[mikethevigoman]

My ladyboy and I went to Canada in order to get our civil union officially sanctioned. I did this as a sign of commitment and for the legal protection that she can have in the future.

I'm not sure you understand my point, so I'm going back to this post of yours. My point is, do you want your ladyboy to be called a "woman" or a "third sex"? Wouldn't it be smarter to fight for the right to be called a woman instead of fighting for the right to be called a third sex? That's what I've been trying to say for the whole thread, but I'm starting to think you don't really read/understand what I'm writing or you just enjoy bashing. There's no need for a "third sex", you should be either woman or man, no matter what you were before.

Please ask your ladyboy if she prefers to be called a woman or a third sex. If you have the courage to ask her that question. Because from your responses, it seems clear to me that you're fighting more for her right to be called a "third sex" rather than a woman.

Lady boy seems a contradiction to me ,or am i missing somrething too ?

[mikethevigoman]

There are two sexes and some that try to make them look like the other - for whatever reason. That part I will not debate.

Well, then i would advise you to read up a little on the subject and educate yourself. There are certain conditions which are grouped together under the term "intersex" - and there things become very complicated, such as conditions which do make it impossible to define gender so clearly into the two sexes, be they genetic or hormonal.

And we are not even going into the very complicated issues of gender identification and orientation.

Here a link for further education, googling the term "intersex" is also rather interesting:

http://www.isna.org/

At the risk of another holiday isnt it a penis or a vagina that distinguishes sex ?. id love to hear the midwife say "its a katoey "

[mikethevigoman]

Exactly what I've been trying to say for the last 3 pages ...why is there a need for a 3rd gender? I'm sure a man who wants to live their life as a woman would want to be called a "woman", not a "3rd gender".

One thing is for sure, they can do what they want to their body ,but they will never have the heart of a woman,..

[A_Traveller]

One thing is for sure, they can do what they want to their body ,but they will never have the heart of a woman,..

Well I think that some of those whom I have met over the years, would argue that they are, at the risk of sounding trite, 'a woman trapped in a man's body', and so as to the 'heart' issue, especially in Thailand, they would view that they do indeed have a 'woman's heart'.

Regards

[farang prince]

My ladyboy and I went to Canada in order to get our civil union officially sanctioned. I did this as a sign of commitment and for the legal protection that she can have in the future.

I'm not sure you understand my point, so I'm going back to this post of yours. My point is, do you want your ladyboy to be called a "woman" or a "third sex"? Wouldn't it be smarter to fight for the right to be called a woman instead of fighting for the right to be called a third sex? That's what I've been trying to say for the whole thread, but I'm starting to think you don't really read/understand what I'm writing or you just enjoy bashing. There's no need for a "third sex", you should be either woman or man, no matter what you were before.

Please ask your ladyboy if she prefers to be called a woman or a third sex. If you have the courage to ask her that question. Because from your responses, it seems clear to me that you're fighting more for her right to be called a "third sex" rather than a woman.

You miss my point. You keep ignoring the fact that Thai history, culture and language already recognizes the "third sex." The only place it is not recognized is in the law. My ladyboy is perfectly fine with the term "third sex." Whatever the Thai government decides to do, it will be acceptable to her. If they want to call her a woman, fine. She is happy with her life, both here in Thailand and in the USA. But not every transgendered person in Thailand has been as fortunate.

[farang prince]

Yo Rainman,

Don't be so hard on Farang Prince na.

He is fighting for the 'third sex' so he does not have to think he is gay ore not.

I guess he is strugling with that feeling now.

Yo, Alex, not that it is any of your business, but I'm very comfortable with my sexuality. I'm very happy to be bisexual. I have had wonderful experiences with women, men and ladyboys. Not everyone can be so lucky. So please, don't overtax your intellect by trying to psychoanalyze me.

[ColPyat]

Here a link for further education, googling the term "intersex" is also rather interesting:

http://www.isna.org/

At the risk of another holiday isnt it a penis or a vagina that distinguishes sex ?. id love to hear the midwife say "its a katoey "

As i already said, read through the link.

There are actually certain conditions which make it very difficult to determine the sex, such as that hormonal conditions can override the genetic make-up of a person, and a genetic women will have all the male gender attributes, or opposite, a genetic man will develop vagina and breasts. There are many more such conditions.

Psychological gender identification issues are there as well. And historically not only in Thailand or some South Sea islands a "third sex" was recognized, but also in pre-Christian Europe and Asia Minor.

This is a rather fascinating topic, and the easy conclusions drawn by many here do not exactly stand up to current scientific knowledge.

[DrFisher]

People just push reason to far sometimes and make enemies in the process.

[DrFisher]

People just push reason to far sometimes and make friends turn into enemies in the process.

[DirkGently]

Third sex is a term for a person that needs help and not genital mutilation. It is easy to see if you are born a boy or girl, just look down in the shower. This nonsense about the 'third sex' was described to me, by a Thai, as a fashion. Thailand is a place where a person will never have to face there mistakes or supidity, so why not mess about with fake boobs and high heels.

They are MEN in skirts. Fact.

I saw a MAN in a university uniform yesterday. The GUY was so thin HE must have been ill. I felt sorry for HIM because whatever was deluding HIM into thinking HE could be a woman was making him starve HIMSELF.

[farang prince]

Third sex is a term for a person that needs help and not genital mutilation. It is easy to see if you are born a boy or girl, just look down in the shower. This nonsense about the 'third sex' was described to me, by a Thai, as a fashion. Thailand is a place where a person will never have to face there mistakes or supidity, so why not mess about with fake boobs and high heels.

They are MEN in skirts. Fact.

I saw a MAN in a university uniform yesterday. The GUY was so thin HE must have been ill. I felt sorry for HIM because whatever was deluding HIM into thinking HE could be a woman was making him starve HIMSELF.

Thank you for your "expert" opinion. As the old saying goes, if you want to know a person, walk a mile in their shoes. Got any high heels sweetheart?

[Flysiam]

OK, IF there is a 3d sex..... How do we refer to this new gender in language (at least english) ? consider this:

Male: HE, HIM, HIS

Female: SHE, HER, HERS

3d: ?, ?, ?

[cdnvic]

getting rid of all "men" and "women" and replacing them with "persons" under the law solves all the issues even if there is eight sexes.

Edited April 27, 2007 by cdnvic

[ColPyat]

getting rid of all "men" and "women" and replacing them with "persons" under the law solves all the issues even if there is eight sexes.

common sense

[DirkGently]

AHHH! Mr Prince, I was glad to set you straight.....so to speak... about this PC nonsense about the 3rd nonsense.....I mean sex.

'Evidence' of this 3rd nonsense is usually given by odd folks with their own gender....oops! I mean agenda.

Why is it that so many MEN in Thailand choose to mutilate themselves? Here let me give you some clues.

1. Very little psychiatric help.

2. A culture where nobody will show you your errors.

3. A culture where nobody will accept their failings.

4. Doctors that will mutilate a man if HE is willing to pay, with no questions asked.

I have no issue with queers or lesbians and I do feel you have the right to do as they do. Also, I have the right to say what I think.

Walking in shoes? HHHMMM! Good point. Well made. Hitler thought he was in the right too. Just because you think you are in the right, it doesn't mean you are.

As for calling me sweetheart! That is just silly. My heart is a sinewy organ filled with blood and proberbly tastes like chicken.

THERE IS NO THIRD SEX! I hope that helps.

[mikethevigoman]

Your remarks are very un PC and you really shouldn't be peddling truth like this.

Other than perhaps a few unfortunate people with birth defects, we all have our very clearly defined role in re-production. Surely we don't need to draw them a diagram do we!

Couldn't this be put in the gay section as scorn is going to be poured on anybody that doesn't support these cranks! Were all soon going to be described as homo-phobic or some other crap, the heat will rise on the debate and people will be threatened with holidays for daring to suggest that it isn't normal behaviour for a man to wear a dress and ride round the beach front all night screaching "hello sexy man"!

How are my remarks homophobic? I never said I didn't respect people for their sexual preference, but what the thread title says, someone appears to be asking for a "third sex" for homosexuals, lesbians, etc. What I'm saying is that there's female or male, no third sex. Whether a man dressing as a woman and calling himself female or the other way around, she/he will still either way be female or male. Being homosexual or lesbian doesn't make someone a "third sex", its simply a sexual preference.

ITS ON THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE ISNT IT ?

[mikethevigoman]

Your remarks are very un PC and you really shouldn't be peddling truth like this.

Other than perhaps a few unfortunate people with birth defects, we all have our very clearly defined role in re-production. Surely we don't need to draw them a diagram do we!

Couldn't this be put in the gay section as scorn is going to be poured on anybody that doesn't support these cranks! Were all soon going to be described as homo-phobic or some other crap, the heat will rise on the debate and people will be threatened with holidays for daring to suggest that it isn't normal behaviour for a man to wear a dress and ride round the beach front all night screaching "hello sexy man"!

How are my remarks homophobic? I never said I didn't respect people for their sexual preference, but what the thread title says, someone appears to be asking for a "third sex" for homosexuals, lesbians, etc. What I'm saying is that there's female or male, no third sex. Whether a man dressing as a woman and calling himself female or the other way around, she/he will still either way be female or male. Being homosexual or lesbian doesn't make someone a "third sex", its simply a sexual preference.

I thought that Dupont was using sarcasm to support your point.

We love all sorts here in Thailand, and good luck to everyone.

Please note - There are two sexes; male and female. Some males may behave differently to others. Some females may behave differently to others. Some females may become males, and some males may become females. Up to them, and good luck to them.

Nothing changes the basic biological truth; they're two sexes - males and females.

THEY CANT EVER CHANGE THE BIT ON THEIR BIRTH CERTIFICATE THAT SAY "SEX ",.. AND THERE ARE STILL ONLY 2 TOILETS IN THAILAND, MALE AND FEMALE, .I HAVE YET TO SEE "KATOEY ",ON A TOILET DOOR. I LIKE EM, IM OFF TO JENNY STAR BAR TONIGHT ! Edited April 27, 2007 by mikethevigoman

[mikethevigoman]

Give me a break - and give it a rest! You are REALLY stretching now to argue with me.

Actually, i am not arguing with you, i just try to educate you that your antiquated gender views are in some rare cases not accurate, and that therefore your statement, that there are only two genders, is false.

You may or may not decide to debate the issue, but expect counter arguments when you present statements based solely on your opinion.

To make it short, just read through the link i presented. You might learn something.

Im aware of adam and eve, whos the other one ?

[Flysiam]

Give me a break - and give it a rest! You are REALLY stretching now to argue with me.

Actually, i am not arguing with you, i just try to educate you that your antiquated gender views are in some rare cases not accurate, and that therefore your statement, that there are only two genders, is false.

You may or may not decide to debate the issue, but expect counter arguments when you present statements based solely on your opinion.

To make it short, just read through the link i presented. You might learn something.

Im aware of adam and eve, whos the other one ?

Dunno - some people just like to stretch an arguement just to stir the pot.

[ColPyat]

Give me a break - and give it a rest! You are REALLY stretching now to argue with me.

Actually, i am not arguing with you, i just try to educate you that your antiquated gender views are in some rare cases not accurate, and that therefore your statement, that there are only two genders, is false.

You may or may not decide to debate the issue, but expect counter arguments when you present statements based solely on your opinion.

To make it short, just read through the link i presented. You might learn something.

Im aware of adam and eve, whos the other one ?

Dunno - some people just like to stretch an arguement just to stir the pot.

My sincerest apologies, i did not know that intellectual challenges are not exactly your cup of tea.

[ColPyat]

Im aware of adam and eve, whos the other one ?

The other one is usually called 'reality'.

Edited April 27, 2007 by ColPyat

[bina]

Im aware of adam and eve, whos the other one ?

in christian/judaism u have adam and eve

in other cultures u do have a 'third sex' and there is a f.... load of info:

the navajo et al have a third sex personality as do other tribal groups in the states and elsewhere that hold high level postitions in the community, etc.... google the word berdache and u will find more info that is interesting to say the least.

i will say this again: chromosomes say what u are genetically however in daily identity, what matters to us as people who have the abiltiy to think and reason, is what a person identifies him/herself as: and third gender 'women' are women... in israel we use the feminine language to talk to anyone who calls him/herself a woman and vice versa. my daughter has a friend who is undergoing a sex change to become a man. for as long as we have known this girl, we ahve spoken to her using the masculine forms of verbs etc. , thats how she wants it, thats how she acts, and thats what she is, deep inside: a man. she's known that since she was very young, her parents accept that (she's 18 now)etc. its true, here it is problematic since we are a religious society, however, once she is changed over, than i think on her id card she changes her registered sex as male. will she do the army? i'm not sure since she is in the middle of the process medically and armies dont like medical problems.

as for genital organs, being present or not doesnt make the gender: eunachs are still males. women with no breasts are still women. provided thats how they id themselves. for reproductive purposes and for medical genetic heredity purposes it might make a difference if u are male or female by chromosomes since many disieases and syndroms are male carried or female carried. for other purposes, who cares?

and its about time to have them become a legal entity.

edit: my daugther's friend changed her name legally to a 'unisex' type name, and though i use she here on the board, when we talk with her or about her here at home, we use the masculine version of hebrew to discuss her (him). in the beginning it was confusing and my thai husband referred to her as 'tom' since she (he) isnt a katoey. for him, kataoy is a real entity, with his/her own identity. (he has a well respected 60 yr old uncle who is katoey i cant remember if he used lung or aa when speaking to this person since i didnt know that 'she' was a katoey and no, it wasnt obvious, as 'she' was just an old village lady type, nothing glamorous etc) and fortunately, in thai, there is no problem of he/she him/her in the third person.

Edited April 27, 2007 by bina

[bkkrox]

AHHH! Mr Prince, I was glad to set you straight.....so to speak... about this PC nonsense about the 3rd nonsense.....I mean sex.

'Evidence' of this 3rd nonsense is usually given by odd folks with their own gender....oops! I mean agenda.

Why is it that so many MEN in Thailand choose to mutilate themselves? Here let me give you some clues.

1. Very little psychiatric help.

2. A culture where nobody will show you your errors.

3. A culture where nobody will accept their failings.

4. Doctors that will mutilate a man if HE is willing to pay, with no questions asked.

I have no issue with queers or lesbians and I do feel you have the right to do as they do. Also, I have the right to say what I think.

Walking in shoes? HHHMMM! Good point. Well made. Hitler thought he was in the right too. Just because you think you are in the right, it doesn't mean you are.

As for calling me sweetheart! That is just silly. My heart is a sinewy organ filled with blood and proberbly tastes like chicken.

THERE IS NO THIRD SEX! I hope that helps.

You are absolutely entitled to your own opinion and to say what you want as does everybody else, but choosing to refer to gay men as QUEERS as you did in your post is rude ,hurtful,prejudiced and bigotted. You do not need to be 'PC' to have an adult discussion but just a little education on your part would help you realise that using that word is offensive to the people you are referring to.Just as bad a using the "N word " .

Its ironic you should bring up Hitler in your post. You see,by using that word, you have clearly shown where your opinion on this topic is coming from.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks to bina for that post about the girl in Israel who is becoming a man, and has always considered himself to be masculine, asked to be addressed as male, and the culture treated him as a him. Very interesting.

We once asked some Catholic Mayas if there was any other form of sexual behavior in their tribe, other than heterosexual. Sure, yes. And I'm sure they have a special term for it in their language, but I didn't understand, because I don't know their language or culture.

We know our own cultures from the West, and can't often agree about sexual identify, gender, sex roles, etc. How little we know about the Thai 'third sex'!! While we are non-immigrants here, we should be at least half as tolerant about their customs, as they are within their own culture.

[TokyoT]

It is pretty clear form reading thru this thread that there are quite a few posters out their that are fairly ignorant of the Thai language/ culture as it relates to this issue (third sex). And quite a few posters that are attempting to relate to this issue based only on Western beliefs and ideas.

I really wish I did not have a business dinner I need to run off to so that I could adequately address this issue. But anyone who does a little bit of work related to this subject will quickly find that all these Adam/Eve and he/she references only hold water in the isolated world of the West. While there may not be a term or terms for the “third sex” in the Western vocabulary or the Western religion there is a place for the “third sex” in the Thai vocabulary and in Eastern religion as well.

Like I said I wish I had the time – but today I don’t maybe this weekend. Certainly someone else out there can give a posting or two related to the how the not every Thai word has a direct Western equivalent (I know some have already tried and it has so far fallen on deaf ears/blind eyes) and maybe even give a bit on the how some Eastern religions actually have a place for the “third sex”

[AlexLah]

Yo Rainman,

Don't be so hard on Farang Prince na.

He is fighting for the 'third sex' so he does not have to think he is gay ore not.

I guess he is strugling with that feeling now.

Yo, Alex, not that it is any of your business, but I'm very comfortable with my sexuality. I'm very happy to be bisexual. I have had wonderful experiences with women, men and ladyboys. Not everyone can be so lucky. So please, don't overtax your intellect by trying to psychoanalyze me.

Hi Farang Prince,

Sorry, I apologise for the comment I made there.

To me if two people love eachother and not hurt eachother it is fine with me, no matter if they are same sex or not.

I just think that this Thai organisation should start with the basics by asking to change the Thai law to allow fully transgendered people to change their gender in at least their passport/ID.

Next to that allow them to marry and have the possibility to adopt children.

How is your partner thinking about that?

Is your partner planning to have surgery done to remove the male part?

What do you prefer your partner to be, half half or full?

I am not asking these questions to bash you afterwards just a genuine interest.

I know a few post and pre op and many post op tell they cannot have an orgasm anymore and that is why some of them (pre op) choose not to have the full operation.

I think you are very brave to admitt that you are living with a pre op (I guess) and tell you are bisexual.

So if there is anyone here that could shed some light on this third sex thing, one of them is you.

I have posted a few reply's and you can see I am very openminded on it but nobody reacts on what I think.

To me there is no such thing as a third sex.

You are either a genetic women that likes men (= heterosexual)

You are a genetic women that likes women (=Lesbian)

You are a genetic male that likes genetic women (=heterosexual)

You are a genetic man that likes men) (=gay)

You are a person that likes both (= Bisexual)

The fact that some people choose to have breast implants and want to look like a girl does not mean they are part of some different type of humans called third sex.

It means they could be in a transition phase to become a girl (post up) or not.

Some others just do it for the money and will not go for the full operation.

Anyway just have a good time with whatever you want, just do not hurt someone.

Alex

[farang prince]

Yo Rainman,

Don't be so hard on Farang Prince na.

He is fighting for the 'third sex' so he does not have to think he is gay ore not.

I guess he is strugling with that feeling now.

Yo, Alex, not that it is any of your business, but I'm very comfortable with my sexuality. I'm very happy to be bisexual. I have had wonderful experiences with women, men and ladyboys. Not everyone can be so lucky. So please, don't overtax your intellect by trying to psychoanalyze me.

Hi Farang Prince,

Sorry, I apologise for the comment I made there.

To me if two people love eachother and not hurt eachother it is fine with me, no matter if they are same sex or not.

I just think that this Thai organisation should start with the basics by asking to change the Thai law to allow fully transgendered people to change their gender in at least their passport/ID.

Next to that allow them to marry and have the possibility to adopt children.

How is your partner thinking about that?

Is your partner planning to have surgery done to remove the male part?

What do you prefer your partner to be, half half or full?

I am not asking these questions to bash you afterwards just a genuine interest.

I know a few post and pre op and many post op tell they cannot have an orgasm anymore and that is why some of them (pre op) choose not to have the full operation.

I think you are very brave to admitt that you are living with a pre op (I guess) and tell you are bisexual.

So if there is anyone here that could shed some light on this third sex thing, one of them is you.

I have posted a few reply's and you can see I am very openminded on it but nobody reacts on what I think.

To me there is no such thing as a third sex.

You are either a genetic women that likes men (= heterosexual)

You are a genetic women that likes women (=Lesbian)

You are a genetic male that likes genetic women (=heterosexual)

You are a genetic man that likes men) (=gay)

You are a person that likes both (= Bisexual)

The fact that some people choose to have breast implants and want to look like a girl does not mean they are part of some different type of humans called third sex.

It means they could be in a transition phase to become a girl (post up) or not.

Some others just do it for the money and will not go for the full operation.

Anyway just have a good time with whatever you want, just do not hurt someone.

Alex

Alex, apology accepted. I long ago realized that the issue of the Third Sex is something very foreign to farangs, so when I responded to this topic I knew it would bring out a lot of flamers. Your post is very thoughtful. As I said in my original post long ago, the issue of whether the Third Sex will be afforded legal equality in Thailand is not up to those of us from outside the country. It is up to the Thais...specifically the Thai government. Given their track record to this point, I don't see this happening. In fact, I see more individual rights being eroded rather than expanded. That is a shame because there are more than 250,000 members of the Third Sex in Thailand. If you expand this issue beyond the traditional definition of the Third Sex to include all gays in Thailand, you are talking about millions of people.

In another time and place (perhaps a private email), I would be happy to talk about my ladyboy partner in a little more detail, but I would have to discuss this with her to make sure she would approve. She is very private. Suffice to say that she is a remarkable person, coming from a great family (her sister, who is also transgendered, is a university president). We live life quietly and happily here in Bangkok and in the USA.

If there is one thing I can impart about the debate over the Third Sex, it is simply this -- transsexual and transgendered people are human beings. They are not, and should be considered, freaks. Each has their own story about why they chose to change their sexuality. Not all TS/TG people are involved in the sex trade. Many have been assimilated into ordinary society and have become very successful in government, education and business.

But life is hard for many TS/TG people. Through my partner, I know dozens of ladyboys. Most have had a hard time with relationships. It has been hard for them to find the type of man who can understand the lifestyle and accept the ladyboy for the person they are. Ladyboys are for the most part very complex people who often are going through expensive hormone treatments and are in the process of making the difficult decision of whether to become completely transgendered. Each person who completes the transgendering process has to undergo a thorough psychological exam to make sure they are emotionally prepared for this final step. For most ladyboys, there is no hesitation...they are totally committed to the sex change process. Most of them that I know made that decision when they were 12 to 14 years of age. It is an expensive process, ranging in price from $4,000 to $8,000 USD. This is incredibly expensive for the average Thai ladyboy and explains why it takes years for many of them to get the necessary funds to have the surgery.

I hope that gives you a little further background about the Third Sex. Not that any of what I have said will affect the attitudes of many of the posters on this board. As my ladyboy once said, "You might change what it is a person's mind, but you can never change what is in their heart."