Help! How To Keep My 4 Yr Old In His Bed All Night?

[Bredbury Blue]

We have two boys, 4 yr 3 months and 2 yr 4 months. They are lovely kids, full of life, particularly the older one who just plays all day long – life to him is one big game.

The older one slept in his own room with no problems from age 13 months until the younger one was born and has been a night time nuisance ever since. Initially with the birth of his sibling he got very clingy with me (Dad) and virtually every night for the past 2 yr 4 months has got out of his bed some time during the night, often many times a night, and walked across the hall in to our bedroom. We then take him back, lay down with him and wait for him to settle but as this is often between 3 am and 5 am end up sleeping with him. Last Christmas we put the younger one in the older ones bedroom, on side-by-side separate mattresses, hoping it would stop the night maneuvers. It hasn’t had an affect, in fact the younger one who has been trained well, can settle on his own and rarely wakes in the night, now sometimes joins in the night maneuvers – we reckon the older one drags him along.

I should add that to get the older one asleep we have to lie down next to him until he settles, which is probably part of the problem, and so at the moment we’re trying to get him used to the idea of us leaving the pair of them alone to settle and sleep – early days yet but we’re persevering.

This has been going on far too long and is putting a strain on the wife and I – we’re permanently knackered. The putting to sleep can take me anything from 10 minutes to two hours (not including story time) meaning that I get to eat sometime between 9.30 and 10 pm which isn’t great. The night waking is usually around 11 pm and then between 3 – 5 am which the wife has to take care of as I’m up at 5.30 am to leave for work. During school term he occasionally sleeps through the night.

So does anybody have similar experiences, and does anybody have any advice how to get him to stay in his bed all night (luckily he doesn’t wet the bed and will wake and go to the toilet if needed)?

Help!

[Mighty Mouse]

I came across this interesting link that discusses a similar problem to yours. You may get some ideas from it.

Otherwise, maybe he needs some sort of stuffed animal or a favourite toy to sleep with. I remember having a small rag rabbit when I was a child. It had to go to bed with me every night. It kept me happy and kept me in bed too.

[Bredbury Blue]

I came across this interesting link that discusses a similar problem to yours. You may get some ideas from it.

Otherwise, maybe he needs some sort of stuffed animal or a favourite toy to sleep with. I remember having a small rag rabbit when I was a child. It had to go to bed with me every night. It kept me happy and kept me in bed too.

Thanks for the reply. I'll have a look at the link, but he's way past the stuffed animal or a favourite toy stage - he likes ultraman, masked rider, etc.

[Bredbury Blue]

Read that link - i'd recommend everybody reading this topic read it. Although its aimed more at toddlers rather than robust physical 4 yr old like mine (if i put a baby gate to block his exit from his room as the link suggests, he'd just love the commando aspect of climbing over or ripping it out), i did get something out of it which i'll try, and that is the ten star reward system if he stays in his room all night. Funnily enough he's never said why he comes out apart from "to see mummy and daddy" - bless him!

Edited April 24, 2007 by Bredbury Blue

[PeaceBlondie]

You could consider letting the two boys sleep in the same bed - apparently they don't like to wake up alone. You may need to be firmer with them, especially since a four year old can reason and have a real discussion about what and why. I wouldn't spend over 20 minutes putting a kid to sleep, although in the past I foolishly and often did.

Lastly, if the boy(s) doesn't arrive in the bed of your wife and you until you're well asleep, is there much harm in that? Families around the world sleep together. I used to wake up with four kids sprawled around the bed, including the four-year old at our feet.

[leisurely]

I know how you feel. I think you've made a rod for your own back though by lying down with him. With ours from the start it was routine routine routine. Dinner, shower or bath, story, lights out, sleep. Our youngest is poorly sick at the moment, she has pharyngitis that is making her cough. It started three days ago (bad mum only took her to doctors today) The coughing wakes her up - she sounds like an alsation, and wakes me (Mr Man slumbers on). I go in to her and give her some water and she goes back to sleep. We have been lucky though.

The sticker chart is a marvellous idea. Make it a number that is reachable though and whatever you do never take a sticker off the chart. We use those for bribes and they work a treat .

Good luck

Leisurely

[bina]

he's got u trained well !!!

set a time limit, and a permanant 'ceremony' for going to bed and thats it. no more, another story, more water, pee pee, cold, the blanket fell, where's my superman doll (boys do the stuffed animal thing more subtly, they go to bed with cars, trucks, etc.)

teach him how to put himself back to sleep. if he wakes up, comes in the room, u can:

a. do like peace blondie and let him sleep but dont make him too comfortable, my daughter eventually decided on her own that sleeping on top of feet w/o blankets etc wasnt comfortable and would get back up on her own and return to her own bed.

b. tell him, "go back to bed" and then ignore. if its not worth his while (negative reinforcement that dad/mom go with him to HIS bed, spend time, etc) the behavior should 'fade out'; try replacing with a positive behavior. he goes in room, u wake up, you kiss him good nite, say go back to bed, he waits but eventually goes back to bed even if u have to ptetend that u are asleep, then u make a fuss of him in the a.m., etc.) . son used to do this and he would stand , kind of lurking in the dark, waiting for a response. didnt get any at all, so would turn around and go back to bed. and i wouldnt mention anythng. the behavior just faded out due to not getting any kind of response whatso ever.

c. keep him in the bed and figure that by first grade most kids (if u are in westernized cultural areas) wont sleep with parents due to peer pressure, sleep overs, tired out from daily activities, etc.

d. spend more daytime activiities with him as the sibling is the one that instigated it (and u all let it go on for way too long so now its a behavior pattern) and this may relieve him of his need to get attention during nites.

this may sound funny, but some of the sites for dog behavior modification give tips for behavior modification in humans especially children: karen pryor is one such; try googling for it... she wrote a great book about changing behavior in people and animals positively and its rather fun too!

Edited April 24, 2007 by bina

[Bredbury Blue]

1. You could consider letting the two boys sleep in the same bed - apparently they don't like to wake up alone.

2. You may need to be firmer with them, especially since a four year old can reason and have a real discussion about what and why.

3. I wouldn't spend over 20 minutes putting a kid to sleep, although in the past I foolishly and often did.

4. Lastly, if the boy(s) doesn't arrive in the bed of your wife and you until you're well asleep, is there much harm in that? Families around the world sleep together. I used to wake up with four kids sprawled around the bed, including the four-year old at our feet.

1. They want to sleep together, i'm just not sure if short-term thats a good idea (the young un revolves around the bed like fingers on a clock and they would probably disturb each other) and long-term would we be making another rod for our own backs? Certainly didn't do my family any long term problems with 4 - 6 a bed. So is the two of them sharing a good idea or bad idea - what do other people think?

2. You are correct.

3. You are correct again. Generally it is a 20 - 30 minute job but usually if after an hour if they haven't settled i would take the none sleeper (always the elder) downstairs while i eat and then start again an hour later. In truth the getting to sleep isn't the problem so much, its the night moves.

4. You are correct again. We occasionally used to let him sleep in our bed when the younster was also in our room but now we always take him back - we like our space too.

[Bredbury Blue]

I know how you feel. I think you've made a rod for your own back though by lying down with him. With ours from the start it was routine routine routine. Dinner, shower or bath, story, lights out, sleep. Our youngest is poorly sick at the moment, she has pharyngitis that is making her cough. It started three days ago (bad mum only took her to doctors today) The coughing wakes her up - she sounds like an alsation, and wakes me (Mr Man slumbers on). I go in to her and give her some water and she goes back to sleep. We have been lucky though.

The sticker chart is a marvellous idea. Make it a number that is reachable though and whatever you do never take a sticker off the chart. We use those for bribes and they work a treat .

Good luck

Leisurely

"I think you've made a rod for your own back though by lying down with him." You are 100% correct. Like most first time parents we were probably too soft with him; but we seem to have got it right with the younger one who is well trained and well adjusted little lad.

[Bredbury Blue]

he's got u trained well !!!

set a time limit, and a permanant 'ceremony' for going to bed and thats it. no more, another story, more water, pee pee, cold, the blanket fell, where's my superman doll (boys do the stuffed animal thing more subtly, they go to bed with cars, trucks, etc.)

teach him how to put himself back to sleep. if he wakes up, comes in the room, u can:

a. do like peace blondie and let him sleep but dont make him too comfortable, my daughter eventually decided on her own that sleeping on top of feet w/o blankets etc wasnt comfortable and would get back up on her own and return to her own bed.

b. tell him, "go back to bed" and then ignore. if its not worth his while (negative reinforcement that dad/mom go with him to HIS bed, spend time, etc) the behavior should 'fade out'; try replacing with a positive behavior. he goes in room, u wake up, you kiss him good nite, say go back to bed, he waits but eventually goes back to bed even if u have to ptetend that u are asleep, then u make a fuss of him in the a.m., etc.) . son used to do this and he would stand , kind of lurking in the dark, waiting for a response. didnt get any at all, so would turn around and go back to bed. and i wouldnt mention anythng. the behavior just faded out due to not getting any kind of response whatso ever.

c. keep him in the bed and figure that by first grade most kids (if u are in westernized cultural areas) wont sleep with parents due to peer pressure, sleep overs, tired out from daily activities, etc.

d. spend more daytime activiities with him as the sibling is the one that instigated it (and u all let it go on for way too long so now its a behavior pattern) and this may relieve him of his need to get attention during nites.

this may sound funny, but some of the sites for dog behavior modification give tips for behavior modification in humans especially children: karen pryor is one such; try googling for it... she wrote a great book about changing behavior in people and animals positively and its rather fun too!

Thanks for your comments.

The going to bed isn't too bas - occasionally is - and we have a routine; during school term he's the first asleep.

"he's got u trained well !!!" Your ###### right he has! Some times we think he's not the sharpest pencil in the box but he knows how to manipulate already.

[Bredbury Blue]

my last email has ##### - i didn't know that there was a censor nor that nmad (reverse) was considered a swear word.

[Bredbury Blue]

Thanks for the comments to date. Last night i explained to him how it’s going to be and the star reward system which we’ll use and he seemed interested in it – he said wants a motor bike as a reward! Told him he can have a visit to Toys R Us to but a toy and if he’s a good boy maybe Father Christmas might bring him a bike. So he seems interested.

We’ll start the reward system shortly – got to buy the stars plus we’re off on holiday next week so we’ll all be in one room anyway – and I’ll let you know how we get on.

A friend of my wife’s was saying that their boy visited nightly until he was 6 and then stopped – we don’t fancy another 2 years of this malarkey.

Spoke to my wife about possibly putting them in the same bed together (they sleep side-by-side on double mattresses) she was a bit skeptical. So do people think that it would be a good idea or a bad idea in the long term to put them in the same bed?

[PeaceBlondie]

Poor people around the world sleep in the same bed with other people, as children. My twin daughters were inseparable until one became pregnant and moved out. I no longer see it as Western Wisdom 101 that each middle-class child needs their own bed and bedroom. I don't see, offhand, what the long term damage would be.

Naturally we made some mistakes in raising six children, but having them share beds wasn't one of the mistakes, so far as I can tell.

[Bredbury Blue]

Surprisingly, this star reward system seems to be having instant results - early days though.

Worked the first night. Got home last night and it was the first thing he talked to me about and what a good boy he'd been "Where's my star". Slept through last night again. Two for two!

We are not too keen on the bed sharing idea though.

[chatette]

We had the very same problem as you until we applied the reward system and it worked perfectly. Our daughter does come in from time to time - once a week or less - but it's not routine so I don't see it as an issue. I wouldn't be keen on the bed sharing, either. If one child is sick, for example, his or her nocturnal waking is much more likely to disturb the other than if they were in separate beds. Good luck!

[chanchao]

Classic mistake: You're putting them to bed too early. Let them get tired, wear themselves out a bit, then they'll sleep like a rock.

Alternatively: Just let him finish the night in your bed then. Will do a world of good for your own night's sleep.

[Bredbury Blue]

Classic mistake: You're putting them to bed too early. Let them get tired, wear themselves out a bit, then they'll sleep like a rock.

Too early at 8.30 pm for a 2 & 4 yr old? You serious! I agree with the "Let them get tired, wear themselves out a bit, then they'll sleep like a rock." part though.[/b][/b]

Alternatively: Just let him finish the night in your bed then. Will do a world of good for your own night's sleep.

Still not convinced that letting either of them come in and sleep in our bed (at 3 am or whatever the time) wouldn't just be compounding the problem.

The reward system worked for 2 nights but not for the 3 - 4 nights since.

Edited April 30, 2007 by Bredbury Blue

[leisurely]

Depending on what time they get up, I suspect they are over tired and need more sleep. I think that 12 hours is recommended for that age group. I know that if my youngest (6) doesn't get at least 11 hours a night, she is a pain in the bum for a couple of days after her shortfall. Waking early and roaming the house wanting to find me or her dad.

[bina]

the star system only works if there is a purpose at the end of the week for a collection of stars; and not a toy, but a treat like an outing (to keep the equation of behavior = material goods to a minimum)... two nights and the novelty wears off if there is no reward. what u are doing is remodelling your sons' behavior so essentially he is remodelling yours, again.

u cant just give up the system cause it failed twice. u hve to make things worth his while. at the moment it is worth his while as u get up, put him in bed, talk to him, etc. ; on days that he comes to your bed or hovers over u in the bedroom or cries, speak once, reassure, say go to bed, and turn over and snore. if he doesnt come in the bed but goes back to his bed, reward him in the morning, for making an increment of improvement. things dont change overnite (ha ha) but slowly

it has to be more worth his while to stay in his bed then to go to yours. negative reinforcement is just as worth it to him as positive unless the positive is 'better' (not more expensive, better). if u sleep thru the night then u get a star and special breakfast (in bed? decorated)... dont up the ante too much so that u have to outdo yourself.

once again i reiterate to find the sight of karen pryor for positive reinforcement training w/animals and children... its great info... worth your while even if u dont use it..

bina

[Bredbury Blue]

Well it's been a while since i posted on my son's night manouvres.

His mum was ill for a while (run down) and we moaned to him about mummy not being well because of him waking mummy up night time.

I also spent several days of returning him to his bed every time he woke up - it was WAR between us! Some nights it would be up to 10 night visits and he got smart, waking up his 2 yr old brother to go get mummy / daddy for which the olden got a smacked bum. I'd stand outside the door listening to them at 3 am - hard work! The wife reckoned i was wasting my time and just when i was about to give up...he's gone and slept through the night the last 10 nights. He does some times get up - but he can't come in anymore as we lock our door - and he gives the game away as he leaves the door slightly open (he seems to like to swap beds with the little un). All in all he's really improved - oh, and he likes the sticker idea and gets very excited ringing me at work to tell me he slept all night, and when i walk in at night he immediately wants his sticker.

Next up is getting him to eat with his mouth closed, to put his hand in front of his mouth when sneezing, remember to say his p's & q's, etc, etc (i jest). Why is it your 2nd kid are always so much easier.

[Neeranam]

I bought a Hello Kitty alarm clock and a Minnie Mou bed sheet for my 4 year old.

I think you have to be firmer. I know I have to be firmer but it's hard.

[bina]

its not a matter of being firmer; its a matter of deciding what u want and then be consistent and set goals that are realistic for the age, and circumstance of the child (or animal) ; what is cute (not talking about age appropriate cute) in a two year old isnt cute in a six year old. its like the people that complain that their great dane stands on hind legs and jumps on them. when he was a pup, it was cute and they didnt think that this cute pup would be huge and do the same thing.

same with kids.

and i dont think telling a small child that his mommy is sick because of him is a good idea in my personal opinion. u can say that mommy is ill and therefore his waking her up all the time doesnt help her, but never make a child think that they are the one causeing the problem to the parent (jewish guilt trip style...)

bina

Edited June 18, 2007 by bina

[Bredbury Blue]

its not a matter of being firmer; its a matter of deciding what u want and then be consistent and set and i dont think telling a small child that his mommy is sick because of him is a good idea in my personal opinion. u can say that mommy is ill and therefore his waking her up all the time doesnt help her, but never make a child think that they are the one causeing the problem to the parent (jewish guilt trip style...)

bina

Bina, you would know your kids better than anybody else wouldn't you, and you would be a decent judge of what to say and not to say. So don't judge others so harshly. My little boy is smart and a bit of reality will do him no harm from time to time. And he slept through the night again last night.

[bina]

wasnt judging was commenting.... my own personal opinion borrowed from a general one from most up to date child rearing (western style that is) types... not that they are always right either...

more likely your son is sleeping thru the night cause he got tired of the game cause u outlasted or out bested him... or he phased himself out of the behavior coincidentally seeing as he didnt get what he wanted.

and surprisingly enough, a large majority of people dont know their own kids well enough; u'd be surprised (i'm now doing a program with kids one on one with animals ala pet therapy stuff) how much people missread their kids including me.)

example: i tend to fully explain in detail when a child is sick, i dont lie about someone if theya re ill and dying (cancer in adult friend for instance) but it turns out that my youngest the 13 yr old is unable to filter out unneccesary info and knowing 'too much' caused her to pay too much attention to her own medical things small or large (asthmatic among others). with good psychological advice (for a change), i've learned that she needs generalities and not specifics. i changed my way of dealing with explaining to her, her migraines and asthma have minimilized.

so dont actually overestimate either. smart is different than emotionally developed or able to take what u say as not something dire.

i'm not a child behaviorist but animal, and now working with some children with minor 'spot' problems. we forget that children dont let us know whats going on in their heads, sometimes to 'protect' us from our selves!!!

totally off topic but thought it might explain my comment above better.

bina