Face masks not necessary based on current evidence - Holland's Top Scientists conclude after review of evidence

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, Logosone said:

So you know better than the all the top scientists in the Netherlands' Outbreak Management Team who have reviewed all the evidence, several times, and better than the Dutch National Institute of Health?

 

Really?

Different scientist different views. I can find you scientists who back the masks up. Countries where masks are used.

 

Anyway this is the opinion of one of the scientist leading it four others say differently. You just found one that parrots your views. I have access to the real Dutch news and you have just limited English translations of things taken out of context. 

 

I just read an article about this and what she said was that she thinks is that if people wear face masks they will not keep the 1.5 meters distance and people with disease will go out because they feel they dont spread. That is different then saying that masks dont work.

[robblok]

A bit more on this they admit that it would probably help a bit but they can't prove it scientifically. That is why they don't make it mandatory. This is a Dutch news site where the comments are without being taken out of context. (for our Dutch readers they can confirm im telling the truth)

 

https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/waarom-nederland-nog-steeds-nee-zegt-tegen-mondkapjes-en-andere-landen-niet~b81b898e/?referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

[2 is 1]

Finnish Institute for Health and  Welfare just recommend to use mask in puplic places!

[dimitriv]

40 minutes ago, Logosone said:

No you're not. I speak Dutch as well. I studied in Maastricht. And you're not better placed to interpret anything.

 

You're a hopeless case.

 

How much Dutch articles saying something else do you need to admit that you are wrong?

 

And if you understand Dutch so well:   Alleen sukkels zoals jij proberen het op de man te spelen als ze begrijpen dat ze geen argumenten hebben.

 

 

[dimitriv]

1 minute ago, 2 is 1 said:

Finnish Institute for Health and  Welfare just recommend to use mask in puplic places!

 

Yes. And even in The Netherlands they now say the same. Sure, maybe it is not "100% scientifically proven" but all signs show that it does make a difference.

 

Unfortunately there are people reading UK trash news papers like the daily mail who try to prove something else.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

18 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No one is stopping you, but you now can't say there is scientific backing for forcing people to do so.

 

There's plenty of scientific evidence supporting the effectiveness of face masks in preventing the spread of the CV...  For whatever reason, some in Holland apparently have decided to ignore it... 

 

If you think doctors and nurses around the world who deal with CV are going to stop wearing face masks because some Holland group doesn't think they're effective, you're sadly mistaken.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[dimitriv]

8 minutes ago, robblok said:

This is a Dutch news site where the comments are without being taken out of context. (for our Dutch readers they can confirm im telling the truth)

 

Yes. It is almost like the article in the daily mail. You pick 1 opinion between hundreds and say that that is the only truth. The article in the Volkskrant you point to explains it much better. But it's probably difficult to understand for someone who studied a couple of years in Maastricht at an institution where they teach in English, but still thinks he knows Dutch better than native Dutch speakers.

 

 

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, dimitriv said:

 

Yes. It is almost like the article in the daily mail. You pick 1 opinion between hundreds and say that that is the only truth. The article in the Volkskrant you point to explains it much better. But it's probably difficult to understand for someone who studied a couple of years in Maastricht at an institution where they teach in English, but still thinks he knows Dutch better than native Dutch speakers.

 

 

Yes having studied in Maastricht makes someone speak good Dutch. Laughable. 

 

Anyway I have gone through a few newspapers and basically they said it gives a false sense of security. 

They also say it possible helps but they can't prove it. So they can't advise to people to wear them.

 

Also what i read was that it was legally hard to do. 

 

I am totally pro face masks and most countries are now. I hope the rest of the Dutch see the light and they change. But main problem i read about was that a certain law was not enacted on yet so they could not force it.

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, rabas said:

They are talking about two different things.

 

1. Does a mask stop virus entering your airways - yes.

2. Does a mask help in a social situation? Who knows, just opinion.

 

No 1 you can count on.

1. No it does not. It may reduce the numbers entering but it does not completely stop the virus.

 

2. If the mask wearer has the disease it reduces the amount of virus in the surrounding area, so absolutely yes it helps.

 

Should everyone wear masks in public? Absolutely, they reduce the transmission of many diseases. 

[rabas]

46 minutes ago, lemonjelly said:

The way I see it is; surgeons wear masks during operations to prevent bacteria/virus laden breath borne droplets coming into contact with the site of surgery. So masks must be beneficial if everyone wears one. If we all act responsibly and protect each other, we’ll get through this.

And medical personnel everywhere wear them to prevent getting COVID-19. It is mandated.

[Logosone]

42 minutes ago, robblok said:

Anyway this is the opinion of one of the scientist leading it four others say differently. You just found one that parrots your views. I have access to the real Dutch news and you have just limited English translations of things taken out of context. 

Oh you have access to "real Dutch news", how, incredibly privileged you are, it's almost as if it weren't freely available on google. You mean real Dutch news like this from the Dutch National Health Institute?

 

"Face masks not needed in private life

 

Limited scientific evidence is available regarding how effective these face masks are. It is not necessary to wear a face mask."

 

https://www.rivm.nl/en/novel-coronavirus-covid-19/face-masks-and-gloves

 

So you are saying the Dutch National Health Institute and the Dutch Outbreak Management Team of top scientists would conclude that face masks are not necessary, not based on a team of scientists reviewing all the evidence, but, well, just a "single scientist" had an opinion on it?

 

Really?

[Logosone]

38 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

There's plenty of scientific evidence supporting the effectiveness of face masks in preventing the spread of the CV...  For whatever reason, some in Holland apparently have decided to ignore it... 

 

If you think doctors and nurses around the world who deal with CV are going to stop wearing face masks because some Holland group doesn't think they're effective, you're sadly mistaken.

 

 

No, the top scientists in Holland have not decided to ignore the evidence, on the contrary, they have reviewed the evidence in regular intervals. It is their job to do so, unlike yours. And after reviewing all the evidence, they concluded that the evidence does not support the need to wear face masks.

 

Doctors in a medical setting is of course a completely different situation. Sick people should always wear masks, and doctors wear masks to protect themselves and to protect already sick people. This does not apply in a normal public setting which is un-related to a medical setting.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Oh you have access to "real Dutch news", how, incredibly privileged you are, it's almost as if it weren't freely available on google. You mean real Dutch news like this from the Dutch National Health Institute?

 

"Face masks not needed in private life

 

Limited scientific evidence is available regarding how effective these face masks are. It is not necessary to wear a face mask."

 

https://www.rivm.nl/en/novel-coronavirus-covid-19/face-masks-and-gloves

 

So you are saying the Dutch National Health Institute and the Dutch Outbreak Management Team of top scientists would conclude that face masks are not necessary, not based on a team of scientists reviewing all the evidence, but, well, just a "single scientist" had an opinion on it?

 

Really?

What I am saying is i have access to far more news then you because i speak and read the language. I am calling B.S. on your Dutch language skills.

 

You took it out of context and i gave a nice article of the volkskrant where the people of the Dutch national health institute said:

 

We think it works but we can't prove it that is why we can't advice to wear it. That is different from what your saying. Also in the AD algemeen dagblad an other of those scientist said that she was against the face masks because it would give a false sense of security. It would make people stop social distancing. She said that without proof and it was an opinion. 

 

Also an other problem is that we can't make face masks mandatory yet as the laws havent passed.

 

You would know that if you like me would read a few Dutch newspapers on a day to day base instead of just one site with limited information.

[Phoenix Rising]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

No you're not. I speak Dutch as well. I studied in Maastricht. And you're not better placed to interpret anything.

 

As you make clear by fantastically misinterpreting the official, clearly stated advice from the dutch national health institute, and the Outbreak Management Team is not advising not to wear masks because there are none but simply because the evidence does not support wearing them.

 

The Daily Mail reported accurately that the Dutch authorities had concluded that the evidence does not support wearing masks. I have posted links from the actual Dutch National health institute itself. And yet you persist in misinterpreting the clear evidence. And even though the Daily Mail reported the Dutch decision accurately you claim it's an individual scientist only. When it is in fact the entire Dutch National Health Institute and the Outbreak Management team which advises the government. You're a hopeless case.

 

 

Based on your posting history are you aware that that can easily be said about you?

[Logosone]

30 minutes ago, robblok said:

Yes having studied in Maastricht makes someone speak good Dutch. Laughable. 

 

Anyway I have gone through a few newspapers and basically they said it gives a false sense of security. 

They also say it possible helps but they can't prove it. So they can't advise to people to wear them.

 

Also what i read was that it was legally hard to do. 

 

I am totally pro face masks and most countries are now. I hope the rest of the Dutch see the light and they change. But main problem i read about was that a certain law was not enacted on yet so they could not force it.

Dutch is incredibly easy to learn for Germans, it's basically a very ugly dialect of German.

 

And you are massively misrepresenting the situation. Dutch scientists have concluded, after reviewing all the evidence that there is no scientific basis to suggest that face masks should be worn.

 

I read about the legal issues in the Dutch press, but this thread is not about Holland's legal issues, this is about Dutch scientists concluding, after several reviews of all the evidence, that facemasks are not necessary.

[2 is 1]

5 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Oh you have access to "real Dutch news", how, incredibly privileged you are, it's almost as if it weren't freely available on google. You mean real Dutch news like this from the Dutch National Health Institute?

 

"Face masks not needed in private life

 

Limited scientific evidence is available regarding how effective these face masks are. It is not necessary to wear a face mask."

 

https://www.rivm.nl/en/novel-coronavirus-covid-19/face-masks-and-gloves

 

So you are saying the Dutch National Health Institute and the Dutch Outbreak Management Team of top scientists would conclude that face masks are not necessary, not based on a team of scientists reviewing all the evidence, but, well, just a "single scientist" had an opinion on it?

 

Really?

Hope they not process vaccine first or nobody not take that!

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, Logosone said:

No, the top scientists in Holland have not decided to ignore the evidence, on the contrary, they have reviewed the evidence in regular intervals. It is their job to do so, unlike yours. And after reviewing all the evidence, they concluded that the evidence does not support the need to wear face masks.

 

Doctors in a medical setting is of course a completely different situation. Sick people should always wear masks, and doctors wear masks to protect themselves and to protect already sick people. This does not apply in a normal public setting which is un-related to a medical setting.

No they did not say that they said they could not prove it worked. The evidence was not strong. That is why they could not recommend it. Different thing. You would know that if you had read the real interviews. Saying that you cant prove something work does not mean it does not work. There is a difference. They did not prove it did not work.

 

But besides that why would these Dutch scientist know it better then other scientists in other countries ? I am all for saying the Dutch are the best in the world but based on what ? Why believe these guys and not others.  These are just a few and they are a minority in the world. Plenty of other Dutch independent scientists say face mask wearing works. 

 

I would go for what the majority of experts say and that is that face masks work. I know that that does not suit your you so you look for a snowflake in hell to prove your point.

Edited August 3, 2020 by robblok

[Bkk Brian]

Why are they keep the 1.5 meter social distancing rule? 

 

Because when someone coughs, sneezes, or speaks they spray small liquid droplets from their nose or mouth which may contain virus. If you are too close, you can breathe in the droplets, including the COVID-19 virus if the person has the disease. 

 

Why do these same Dutch scientists make face mask wearing mandatory on public transport? Because they work in stopping the spread in confined spaces

 

Masks work don't let an out liner report (not a scientific study) fool you otherwise.

 

There are plenty of scientific studies and evidence that face masks help stop the spread of covid. There are also a few that contradict this view. The growing weight of evidence however is conclusive and accepted in the majority of countries and health organisations including WHO.

 

 

[Logosone]

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

What I am saying is i have access to far more news then you because i speak and read the language. I am calling B.S. on your Dutch language skills.

 

You took it out of context and i gave a nice article of the volkskrant where the people of the Dutch national health institute said:

 

 

You do not have access to far more news than I do, in fact you have access to a whole lot less news than I do, because I speak far more languages than you do.

 

Nothing was taken out of context. You are merely trying to obfuscate the reality, namely that top Dutch scientists, after several reviews of all the evidence, have concluded that there is no need to wear face masks.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Logosone

[robblok]

1 minute ago, Logosone said:

You do not have access to far more news than I do, in fact you have access to a whole lot less news than I do, because I speak far more languages than you do.

 

Nothing was taken out of context. You are merely trying to obfuscate the reality, namely that top Dutch scientists, after several reviews of all the evidence, have concluded that there is no need to wear face masks.

I have far more access to DUTCH news that is what we are talking about here. And for me being able to read the exact words as i showed you in the newspaper. Something you cannot just makes you totally unbelievable.

 

 

[Logosone]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

No they did not say that they said they could not prove it worked. The evidence was not strong. That is why they could not recommend it. Different thing. You would know that if you had read the real interviews. Saying that you cant prove something work does not mean it does not work. There is a difference. They did not prove it did not work.

 

But besides that why would these Dutch scientist know it better then other scientists in other countries ? I am all for saying the Dutch are the best in the world but based on what ? Why believe these guys and not others.  These are just a few and they are a minority in the world. Plenty of other Dutch independent scientists say face mask wearing works. 

 

I would go for what the majority of experts say and that is that face masks work. I know that that does not suit your you so you look for a snowflake in hell to prove your point.

So we're supposed to make an exception on the evidence rule for face masks? I think not.

 

In fact, the very, very vast majority of scientists until recently all said that the evidence does not support the use of face masks, the Robert Koch Institute in Germany, the SAGE committee in the UK, the CDC in the US, the WHO even. It was only under massive political pressure, unrelated to scientific evidence, as Mr Voss, the Dutch scientists I quoted earlier made clear, that many reversed their stance, not based on scientific evidence, put purely due to pressure from public opinion and politicians.

 

It is quite something for Dutch scientists to now stand up and re-iterate: After looking at all the evidence, wearing masks makes no sense.

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Why are they keep the 1.5 meter social distancing rule? 

 

Because when someone coughs, sneezes, or speaks they spray small liquid droplets from their nose or mouth which may contain virus. If you are too close, you can breathe in the droplets, including the COVID-19 virus if the person has the disease. 

 

Why do these same Dutch scientists make face mask wearing mandatory on public transport? Because they work in stopping the spread in confined spaces

 

Masks work don't let an out liner report (not a scientific study) fool you otherwise.

 

There are plenty of scientific studies and evidence that face masks help stop the spread of covid. There are also a few that contradict this view. The growing weight of evidence however is conclusive and accepted in the majority of countries and health organisations including WHO.

 

 

Yes they keep hammering on the 1.5 meter distance rule. One of the scientist said that she did not like the face masks as it might make people disregard the 1.5 meter rule she supports so much. So I don't have much faith in that lady. 

 

There are more scientist in favor of face masks then there are against.

 

Even the majors in the larger Dutch cities are trying to make face masks mandatory. Good to see that there are still some smart Dutch people around. ????

[robblok]

Just now, Logosone said:

So we're supposed to make an exception on the evidence rule for face masks? I think not.

 

In fact, the very, very vast majority of scientists until recently all said that the evidence does not support the use of face masks, the Robert Koch Institute in Germany, the SAGE committee in the UK, the CDC in the US, the WHO even. It was only under massive political pressure, unrelated to scientific evidence, as Mr Voss, the Dutch scientists I quoted earlier made clear, that many reversed their stance, not based on scientific evidence, put purely due to pressure from public opinion and politicians.

 

It is quite something for Dutch scientists to now stand up and re-iterate: After looking at all the evidence, wearing masks makes no sense.

That is not what they said.. but you keep regurgitating news that is taken out of context instead of going to real interviews with those scientists. You supposedly could read Dutch ????

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

15 hours ago, Logosone said:

Doctors in a medical setting is of course a completely different situation. Sick people should always wear masks, and doctors wear masks to protect themselves and to protect already sick people. This does not apply in a normal public setting which is un-related to a medical setting.

Except with the CV, NO ONE entirely knows who is "sick" aka contagious due to asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic spread, until it's too late in terms of the ability to spread the virus. And that's why most sensible authorities and countries have endorsed mask wear in public places and when social distancing cannot be maintained.

 

Quote

doctors wear masks to protect themselves

 

Just like the public should. Good enough for doctors. Good enough for me.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Logosone]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

I have far more access to DUTCH news that is what we are talking about here. And for me being able to read the exact words as i showed you in the newspaper. Something you cannot just makes you totally unbelievable.

 

 

Listen your nonsense is completely irrelevant, I have already quoted the exact words from the Dutch National Institute for Health who on their own website from Holland make clear in Dutch and English that wearing masks is not necessary.

 

Face masks not needed in private life

 

https://www.rivm.nl/en/novel-coronavirus-covid-19/face-masks-and-gloves

 

This advice was not given because:

 

1) There are not enough face masks

 

2) There are legal issues

 

3) People can't social distance with masks

 

This advice was given because the top scientists in the Netherlands, after reviewing all the evidence, concluded that wearing masks is pointless.

[Phoenix Rising]

1 minute ago, Logosone said:

Dutch is incredibly easy to learn for Germans, it's basically a very ugly dialect of German.

 

And you are massively misrepresenting the situation. Dutch scientists have concluded, after reviewing all the evidence that there is no scientific basis to suggest that face masks should be worn.

 

I read about the legal issues in the Dutch press, but this thread is not about Holland's legal issues, this is about Dutch scientists concluding, after several reviews of all the evidence, that facemasks are not necessary.

Robblok replied to your OP and he clearly showed that your claims were wrong. Games, set, match.

But by all means, don't let that stop the likes of you and thaibeachlovers to continue throwing hissy fits whenever the use of masks comes up.

The scientific research continues and if a consensus is reached that masks do not work I will remove mine. In the mean time people who oppose the use of masks (a minor inconvenience which costs next to nothing and might prevent the spread of Covid) are a******s, plain and simple.

[Logosone]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Except with the CV, NO ONE knows who is "sick" aka contagious, until it's too late in terms of the ability to spread the virus. And that's why most sensible authorities and countries have endorsed mask wear in public places and when social distancing cannot be maintained.

 

Well, we do know that asymptomatic transmission only accounts for 0 to 2.2 per cent of cases. Therefore wearing masks as such is fantastically pointless because the odds of encountering an asymptomatic who would then sneeze or cough in your direction are so small as to be entirely negligible.

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.10.20097543v2.full.pdf

[Logosone]

1 minute ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Robblok replied to your OP and he clearly showed that your claims were wrong. Games, set, match.

But by all means, don't let that stop the likes of you and thaibeachlovers to continue throwing hissy fits whenever the use of masks comes up.

The scientific research continues and if a consensus is reached that masks do not work I will remove mine. In the mean time people who oppose the use of masks (a minor inconvenience which costs next to nothing and might prevent the spread of Covid) are a******s, plain and simple.

Lol, you obviously live in a fantasy world. To re-iterate:

 

The nation's top scientists, having examined key data and research, have declared there is no firm evidence to back the use of face coverings.

 

'Face masks in public places are not necessary, based on all the current evidence,' said Coen Berends, spokesman for the National Institute for Public Health and the Environment. 'There is no benefit and there may even be negative impact.'

 

Holland's position is based on assessments by the Outbreak Management Team, a group of experts advising the government. It first ruled against masks in May and has re-evaluated the evidence several times, including again last week.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8583925/The-land-no-face-masks-Hollands-scientists-say-theres-no-solid-evidence-coverings-work.html

 

So not, as Robblok has claimed because of the negative impact masks could have on social distancing, but rather based on the scientific evidence and there being "no benefit".

[clos88]

4 hours ago, bert bloggs said:

Based on so few cases of it here and only 58 deaths ,i will keep wearing one thanks .

hey just curious will you get a vaccine too?

[simple1]

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

I have far more access to DUTCH news that is what we are talking about here. And for me being able to read the exact words as i showed you in the newspaper. Something you cannot just makes you totally unbelievable.

The member has had an agenda on this forum for a long time concerning Covid pushing for 'herd immunity' etc etc. The report does support the use of masks when social distancing is not possible and so on, the report does not claim masks are not required; spin is going on...