Cambodia And Vietnam: Bad Alternatives

larvidchr · April 29, 2007

The point must be, if you are getting fed up with the visa/ buisness problems, and with the fact that Thailand are getting to westernised and to expensive, you think the crime rates have reached unaccpetable levels in areas like Pattya aso.

There is if you like a new frontier opening up, if Cambodia and Vietnam is 30 years behind Thailand as some posters suggests, it would be like comming to Thailand in the 1970, with everything beeing much cheeper, and easy opportuneties to start something on the cheap, and be a part of the rapid growht and development, and maby in 10 -15 years reap generus rewards.

If you on the other hand just want to escape the neon lights, and get back to a bit more genuine style of life, then considering the age of most of us expats the 30 years should give us ample time to have that before said countrys cahtces up with Thailand.

The one thing though, there is always a certain element of risk opening up a new frontier, just like the chaps that came here in the 1960, they took a chance and won.

So up to you, if your not happy here in Th., take a chance for a big adventure, if you are happy stay and enjoy life.

Kind regards.

Edited April 29, 2007 by larvidchr

think_too_mut · April 29, 2007

"Only" that?

That must have turned Cambodian population to 4WDs Toyotas instead of Camries and Vios?

Nonsense, they would drive whatever they could lay their hands on. Ox carts even if someone built them a highway. Like in Cuba today still driving Buicks from 50s.

Ulysses G. · April 29, 2007

I remember the last time that most foreigner expats fled the place in droves and it wasn't all that long ago. Thailand is WAY safer in every regard.

KireB · April 29, 2007

Very sensitive point here. Khmer Rouge was financially supported by USA and Thailand. The people of Cambodia never killed themselves. They are victims of the biggest scam ever pulled upon a race! Sponsored genocide!

VIVA THE USA!

Ulysses G. · April 29, 2007

I didn't know that Noam Chomsky was posting his nutty theories on Thai Visa.

torito · April 29, 2007

A large percentage of the population still have weapons, specially guns, but this is getting better than few years ago.

The only difference is that Cambodians would not allow us to do whatever we want, as Thais allows us in here.

If one behaves as a normal person and not like untouchable winging god, then things are quite ok in there.

meibanfa · April 29, 2007

Wrong! The khmer Rouge were supported by communist governments. The USA supported the Lon Nol government who unsuccessfully fought the KR.

VIVA IGNORANCE!

KireB · April 29, 2007

We problably have different history books, but you're wrong.

CIA supported Khmer Rouge. Weapons came in via Singapore.

The communists fought the KR for years and even after the genocide.

Vietnam was a safe haven for a lot of Cambodians!

Ulysses G. · April 29, 2007

Pol Pot wasn't American.

undercover · April 29, 2007

Just how I saw the place, along with countless beggers and probably more guns than pattaya.

torito · April 29, 2007

Yeah, it remains me of some cities in USA, in Canada, in......

it is a very poor country coming out from a long internal war.......it would be great if you read something about it before visiting it...even so, some twits have gone to areas openly declared dangerous..

Had somebody hidden these facts and information to potential visitors?

meibanfa · April 29, 2007

Yes, we certainly have different history books. Try reading the Lonely Planet Cambodia guidebook, Pg. 32: "Despite massive U.S. military and economic aid, Lon Nol never succeeded in gaining the initiative against the Khmer Rouge which pursued a strategy of rural attrition."......"China was providing aid and advisers to the Khmer Rouge."

You can find a short synopsis on this link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge

What history book indicates that Thailand, Singapore and the U.S. supported the KR in any way, shape or form?

Incidentally, the refugee camps were in Thailand, not in Viet Nam. Pol Pot turned on his former Vietnamese suporters who then fled to Viet Nam and later returned when Viet Nam invaded as a result of KR cross-border forays into VN. Subsequently VN stopped the KR.

When the soviet Union broke-up and they stopped supporting the Vietnamese, the United Nations troops arrived (UNTAC). Then "free" elections were held for the present Kingdom of Cambodia, with prime Minister Hun Sen the "winner".

uptou · April 29, 2007

but if you pick up the thailand lonely planet (i'm no history expert either),& look under chanthaburi,it says that in 1993 (i think,my memory isnt that great either),a warehouse full of weapons was found in a warehouse there almost certainly destined for the kr,& supplied by the thai military.

meibanfa · April 29, 2007

It is entirely possible that an isolated instance such as this did indeed happen. There has been (and still is) a certain amount of animosity between Cambodia and its two larger and more powerful neighbors.

Nevertheless, the KR was entirely a communist operation. "Khmer" translates to "red" in French, and France is where Pol Pot got his Marxist ideologies, which later morphed into an extreme Maoist-style agrarianism.

uptou · April 29, 2007

i dont think kissinger was exactly mother teresa.

Johpa · April 29, 2007

Long ago a good friend of mine who worked in Cambodia for years for the UN noted that most of the UN vehicles were simply "stolen" and then replaced in a never ending cycle of corruption.

KireB · April 29, 2007

Yes sure and Kennedy was killed by Lee Harvey!

Please get your facts right. Thailand supported Khmer Rouge as there are still (2007) KR camps around Sakauw!

The American view of what happened is complete bull$#%#^#!

torito · April 29, 2007

yeah, yeah....I think that you should open a new topic to discuss historic facts...

I recommend Cambodia....a great place to go, but be informed before you go, so you don't make yourself false expectations about the place..

Ulysses G. · April 30, 2007

Don't worry, most crack-pots agree with you!

meibanfa · April 30, 2007

KierBe wrote:

The author author whom I quoted was not giving the "American view" but was a Brit named, Nick Ray.

Interesting that when your arguments become intellectually bankrupt, you resort to swearing (bull$#%#^#!). Typical. It seems you just want to rewrite history to give it an anti-American bias. Unfortunately, there are a lot like you here.

dumspero · April 30, 2007

Vietnam is stable in the short term because it is a dictatorship. But long term, the fact that its actual political system (military dictatorship) and nominal political system (communism) have no relation to the direction in which it is moving (free market) will tend to make it unstable, in my view.

KireB- what history books? Somebody asked you that and you haven't backed up your bizarre claims. Seems like if you hijack the post to beat up on the US (again) you could at least be rational and support your "theories." And in your view, is there any problem for which the US is not primarily to blame? Like, for example, the invasion of Gaul by the Romans, I'm sure you have a theory about how the US is to blame. Maybe something involving time travel from the US of 2500 or something like that. No, wait, I'm sure your "history books" have a better theory...

KireB · April 30, 2007

Here we go:

Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower

by William Blum

Behind the Peace Agreement in Cambodia

Ben Kiernan, History Department, Yale University

On the Side of Pol Pot: U.S. Supports Khmer Rouge

by Jack Colhoun

History of a nightmare

by Philip short

How Thatcher gave Pol Pot a hand

By John Pilger

Friends of Pol Pot

By John Pilger

The list is endless.

I've got a very confronting DVD called: Cambodia the Betrayal.

It's about the role of the UN and the role of Singapore in this conflict.

And whether you like it or not: USA is a rogue state with a lot of blood on their hands.

Indonesia, Cambodia, Vietnam, South America, Iraq, Lebanon, etc...

You want me to go on! Wonder who voted for Bush; guess it's you!

dumspero · April 30, 2007

KireB- Ok, at least you've provided some titles. But far from documenting your claims. No excerpts, no cites to specific pages, no paraphrases or quotes...

I agree the US is far from perfect and that it's made and is still making a lot of mistakes with its foreign policy. But at the same time, I find it a little silly to see the US called a "rogue state" as though it's one of the worst offenders on the planet. There is a certain crew in the US and other countries that can't see past the sins of US foreign policy to put those mistakes in context or perspective. Sad, because it makes real solutions to the world's problems all the more difficult.

Oh, so if I voted for Bush (I didn't, by the way) then my opinions are worthless? And then the other half of US voters should be ignored by those who voted for Bush? That's the kind of nonsense that's not just off-topic, but tends to kill real dialogue. Here's a cynical reality for you since you're so tough. The left caused Bush to be re-elected by splitting off too many moderates from the Democratic candidate, and they did so with just the kind of attitude you display: either we hate Bush or we're idiots. Good work, the Republican party sends its thanks, from what I understand.

t.s · April 30, 2007

my experience has not shown PP to be much cheaper than thailand, all transactions take place in usd.

t.s · April 30, 2007

if it is not a landcruiser in PP, rest assured it is a camry

t.s · April 30, 2007

i am not sure what cambodia is considered an alternative to in the op. Nor who it would be an alternative for.

aging retirees? don't think so they tend to get sick, and there is no real healthcare in PP. All serious cases get airlifted to BKK.

there certainly aren't any options career-wise, unless of course you work with an NGO, so that cuts out the professional 30 - 50 set.

the french have already opened more bars and restauraunts and spas than the place can support, so who is left? Ah, the international shool teachers.

Spaniel · April 30, 2007

NEGROS! Your'er about 50 years behind the times. Even Negros dont refer to themselves as Negros!

meibanfa · April 30, 2007

Indonesia? Was that not a Dutch colony for 350 years until they were defeated first by the Japanese and later by the Indonesians themselves? And did not the British SAS fight a successful war against Indonesia in the disputed states in Borneo?

In America's bloody history, you forgot to metion the Korean War, WWII, and the American War for Independence. Just thought I'd help you out.

soundman · April 30, 2007

I have to agree with you. I find I spend more in PP in 2 days of partying than I do in Pattaya in 3 days of going nuts.

Cheers,

Soundman.

manjara · April 30, 2007

Ok, without taking too much time, I picked a couple of these references and did a quick internet search. The article by Ben Kiernan in no way implies that the US was supporting the Khmer Rouge, though it does say that the organisation they were supporting (KPNLF - linked with Lon Nol) was allied with the Khmer Rouge against the Vietnam-supported factions. This is entirely as you would expect, given that the US was at war with Vietnam not long previous to this. This was also AFTER Pol Pot was removed from power by the Vietnamese invasion.

The second article is by a guy who writes for Covert Action Quarterly and seems to have no other channel (i.e. he is not a renowned historian, or diplomat, or anything really). Even in that article, the major 'evidence' for support seems to be that the US and Thais insisted that the Khmer people turning up at camps should be fed and treated the same as the others. Hardly damning evidence of CIA support.

I'm not pro-US in any way, but I do think that the Americans cause most of their trouble through ignorance, belligerence and stupidity rather than intent.

They may have inadvertently allowed the Khmer Rouge to survive, but that's not the same as supporting them.

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