Cambodia And Vietnam: Bad Alternatives

[OlRedEyes]

Why don't you guys take your off-topic rants elsewhere? It's been going on for a while now.

[Begbie]

Why the debate about Cambodia's history?

Rest assured lads, the wars over. Safe to come out.

[shochu]

Cambodia was the shining jewel in the 50/60's - so much so that other countries in the region such as korea, singapore went there to study it - to find out how they could copy their success.

I have been there a couple of times and found the country manageable - had no problems whatsoever - but at night - I ususally had my driver take me places as even the locals (both native and expats) told me not to stray from the riverfront without a ride.

A strong gov't is required in order for a country to move ahead in the beginning and although they have one - I would liken him more to a dictator - and because of him, - cambodia will always be tainted in the eyes of many. And, any country that has just gone through what they have requires a generation to get past it before things can get back to normal. Until then I would never even consider cambodia as more than a place to visit once in a while. I can't imagine a politician's relatives here in thailand shooting up people because they were annoyed and getting away with it. Happens in cambodia.

Vietnam, is an extremely vibrant place with a lot of action. I'm not sure how far they are behind thailand - but I have heard at their present rate - maybe just over a decade behind right now. They are a hard working people and very much capital oriented and thus this is where their charms begin to wear thin. I have never been more ripped off or hassled than in vietnam. I think their gov't is a major plus right now for their country as they have a clear vision and they are taking vietnam there.

I heard that the rockefeller's (U.S.) had a contract with - I beleive - the communist gov't (vietnam) during the war to drill for oil off the coast while their boys were fighting and dying for their country.

But, I want to contrast the first sentence with this last one - wasn't it just a decade ago that all the foreign firms were pulling out and swearing they would never be back to vietnam because of all the red tape and corruption?

Funny what a little time does!

[dumspero]

It seems that more people think Vietnam will be stable in the next decades than Cambodia and I agree that the future seems sketchier for Cambodia.

But many believe a major dynamic in the Vietnam war was rural poor versus those with some money. That's background, but maybe will foreshadow a big challenge Vietnam will face. As the country develops, like any country, there will be increasd tension between the growing middle class and elites on the one hand and the rural poor on the other hand. Maybe the government will be strong and wise enough to handle that. Maybe not. And I doubt the Vietnamese people, generally, will be as patient as the Thais, generally, for the wealth to trickle down and spread ever so slowly to the rural poor. Plus they don't have the stabilizing factor that Thailand does that we can't talk about. This is why I'm not so keen on Vietnam's future 10 or 20 years out as many others seem to be. 10 years and less, sure, no problem. But beyond that and their progress will give them problems.

[uptou]

i would like to think that due to cambodias violent history against its own people,they may welcome us more than other countries for residency,buisiness etc.

i am sure that for cost of living though thailand is cheaper.in my experience the street food in vietnam & cambodia was pretty poor compared to thailand.in fact thailand wins hands down in this department.i remember,a few years ago in a bar in hanoi,when this swedish guy & i were talking alone in a bar,& these two military guys asked us to leave as apparently it was to late to be drinking in bars (12.30 pm).didnt understand a word they were saying,but the swede translated.

[shochu]

Vietnam,

Just had dinner with someone who tried to get married in vietnam - a brit and a canadian (these two had lived there for two years) - and they were told that it was hel_l running around for days even with vietnamese friends helping. Essentially, they were told by their embassy that they had to offer a $500 present. And all the marriage certs had cost $800. They said the hel_l with this and went to another asian country and got married in one day for less than $100.

This friend also said that a vietnamese friend with money who was trying to build a building had so many delays in trying to build it, even though this friend had "friends" in high places. Apparently this vietnamese complained a lot about how it was difficult even for the vietnamese to get things done.

So I asked - Then how come there is so much going on there now - how is it possible?

Answer - Don't know. Maybe the right people in the right places and a lot of presents.

I have a question for those that are still there - have things not changed since the 90's?

[makrook]

I didn't know that Noam Chomsky was posting his nutty theories on Thai Visa.

this and the first comment on communism : are you americans so blinded by your own propaganda that you can't actually raise arguments ? "nutty" eh ? can you develop ? (i feel pretty safe that you just can't )

[glenbat]

You haven't been to the United Arab Emirates then!!

Was just going to say you've never been to Jeddah or Riyadh either!

[cooL_guY_corY]

Pol Pot: Anatomy of a Nightmare by Philip Short

Very deep book about Pol Pot, touched on the topic of Americas (CIA) support for the KR thru money and weapons, shortly after the Vietnam war, in order to 'fight communism'. Also mentions briefly all the sorties flew over Laos and Cambodia. I don't think it is arguable that America secretly gave support to the KR. Not the first time or the last time..Iran-Contra thing, Bay of Pigs, the whole El Salvador thing, there is really countless scenarios of America helping out people for the benefit of its self rather then for the "right" cause. Its a very interesting issue,one that definitely isnt taught in American schools although there is a ton of books (some better then others, thats for sure..) out there that have some very interesting information and history. Anyways i dont think it can be argued that America has and always will have an unquenching appetite for its imperialist ambitions and own capitalistic agenda (iraq ?)anyways, America is the most indoctrinated nation in the world and i don't think that is really arguable. This isnt a pro or anti American post, just pro truth. CNN doesnt always show the news !

[Ulysses G.]

I didn't know that Noam Chomsky was posting his nutty theories on Thai Visa.

this and the first comment on communism : are you americans so blinded by your own propaganda that you can't actually raise arguments ? "nutty" eh ? can you develop ? (i feel pretty safe that you just can't )

OlRedEyes

Why don't you guys take your off-topic rants elsewhere? It's been going on for a while now.

Ditto!

[dumspero]

I liked the comment about taking rants elsewhere, including my own after I let myself get dragged in!

makrook, it's not about the "communism" per se or "you Americans." What's your response, if any, to the idea that Vietnam is not as equipped as Thailand to deal with tension between the elites/emerging middle class and the rural poor as it develops? Why is Vietnam more stable than Thailand? Ok, maybe the OP wasn't so clear, but my subsequent posts cleaned up the concept. Do you have a position, or just one-liner attacks on others?

[Luckydog]

Ihave never seen so many toyota landcruisers per capita in any country as cambodia !

YES its looks like everyone is doing very well ! But then you discover that almost all of them

are actually quite old and secondhand but in good condition !

And the New ones are on HP!

[JR Texas]

Just had dinner with someone who tried to get married in vietnam - a brit and a canadian (these two had lived there for two years) - and they were told that it was hel_l running around for days even with vietnamese friends helping. Essentially, they were told by their embassy that they had to offer a $500 present. And all the marriage certs had cost $800. They said the hel_l with this and went to another asian country and got married in one day for less than $100.

Sure, not easy to get married (even though the amount of the "present" is exaggerated), but doable. I actually had more grief from my home country than from the Vietnamese.

JR Texas: I am curious how posters would rank (1-3, 1 being best and 3 being worst) Thailand (T), Vietnam (V), and Cambodia © in terms of three variables (my ranking is listed):

A) Visa rules and regulations (ease of expats staying long term in country)

T (3)

V (2)

C (1)

*Cambodia wins

Business rules and regulations (ease of expats starting a small business)

T (3)

V (2)

C (1)

*Cambodia wins

C) Fun and food (nightlife, girls, food)

T (1)

V (3)

C (2)

*Thailand wins

[PhilHarries]

i would like to think that due to cambodias violent history against its own people,they may welcome us more than other countries for residency,buisiness etc.

i am sure that for cost of living though thailand is cheaper.in my experience the street food in vietnam & cambodia was pretty poor compared to thailand.in fact thailand wins hands down in this department.i remember,a few years ago in a bar in hanoi,when this swedish guy & i were talking alone in a bar,& these two military guys asked us to leave as apparently it was to late to be drinking in bars (12.30 pm).didnt understand a word they were saying,but the swede translated.

I assume you mean 00:30am (30 mins after midnight). I was in Ha Noi March '06 and dropped in the Spotted Cow a couple of times. I asked the girl in there what time do they close. "Late" she replies. "OK how late is late?" "Depends on last customer, usually 2:30am or later".

Mind you it was a surreal experience stepping out onto Hai Ba Trung road at 10:30pm and there being not another living soul in sight. Weird!

I was quite surprised at the level and quality of spoken English I encountered in my time there. Sure my experience is limited so far but I was able to have almost normal conversations with ordinary people, taxi driver, hotel staff, bar staff (not bg's), motocycle taxi driver etc. Maybe I was lucky but I found the level of English to be better than Bangkok or Pattaya.

btw a beer (0.5 liter) in the Spotted Cow is 20,000VND, about $1.20 at the time, except in happy hours it will set you back 10,000. So if you like the suds, as BT would say, mosey on over.

[wolfmanjack]

Pol Pot: Anatomy of a Nightmare by Philip Short

Very deep book about Pol Pot, touched on the topic of Americas (CIA) support for the KR thru money and weapons, shortly after the Vietnam war, in order to 'fight communism'. Also mentions briefly all the sorties flew over Laos and Cambodia. I don't think it is arguable that America secretly gave support to the KR. Not the first time or the last time..Iran-Contra thing, Bay of Pigs, the whole El Salvador thing, there is really countless scenarios of America helping out people for the benefit of its self rather then for the "right" cause. Its a very interesting issue,one that definitely isnt taught in American schools although there is a ton of books (some better then others, thats for sure..) out there that have some very interesting information and history. Anyways i dont think it can be argued that America has and always will have an unquenching appetite for its imperialist ambitions and own capitalistic agenda (iraq ?)anyways, America is the most indoctrinated nation in the world and i don't think that is really arguable. This isnt a pro or anti American post, just pro truth. CNN doesnt always show the news !

the CIA acts in it's own interest and the interest of those that control it. Congress , let alone the american people, does not know everything that the CIA is doing. The arms for drugs deal went on because congress would not approve funding. The CIA was selling drugs in the USA to fund the war. Do you actually believe that the american people would approve of that with all of the money we spend on drug eradication ? if you believe Col Bo Gritz then the CIA was buying drugs from Khun Sa to sell on USA streets during and after the vietnam war. Do not equate what the CIA does with the willof the American people.

[JR Texas]

i would like to think that due to cambodias violent history against its own people,they may welcome us more than other countries for residency,buisiness etc.

i am sure that for cost of living though thailand is cheaper.in my experience the street food in vietnam & cambodia was pretty poor compared to thailand.in fact thailand wins hands down in this department.i remember,a few years ago in a bar in hanoi,when this swedish guy & i were talking alone in a bar,& these two military guys asked us to leave as apparently it was to late to be drinking in bars (12.30 pm).didnt understand a word they were saying,but the swede translated.

I assume you mean 00:30am (30 mins after midnight). I was in Ha Noi March '06 and dropped in the Spotted Cow a couple of times. I asked the girl in there what time do they close. "Late" she replies. "OK how late is late?" "Depends on last customer, usually 2:30am or later".

Mind you it was a surreal experience stepping out onto Hai Ba Trung road at 10:30pm and there being not another living soul in sight. Weird!

I was quite surprised at the level and quality of spoken English I encountered in my time there. Sure my experience is limited so far but I was able to have almost normal conversations with ordinary people, taxi driver, hotel staff, bar staff (not bg's), motocycle taxi driver etc. Maybe I was lucky but I found the level of English to be better than Bangkok or Pattaya.

btw a beer (0.5 liter) in the Spotted Cow is 20,000VND, about $1.20 at the time, except in happy hours it will set you back 10,000. So if you like the suds, as BT would say, mosey on over.

JR Texas: Interesting about VN and English..........I found the same thing in Cambodia and was surprised that so many Cambodians could speak English well........far more and far better than most Thais. This no doubt influences decision-making on where to locate a business. I also found Cambodians to be more willing and eager to learn things than Thais.

But, now there is too much poverty and the infrastructure is still grossly underdeveloped.

One earlier poster stated something about people having no property rights or something like that..........I do know that part of the problem has to do with the fact that proper land surveys have not been completed.

A few years back, I was talking with an Australian (UN employee) whose job it was to do proper surveys in Cambodia using GPS. So, in the future clear records should be available on who owns what. That should help the real estate market develop.

I still see Sihanoukville as a place with real potential. I wish the government would make it a special economic zone and allow foreigners to develop it. People that have been there know that the ocean is more beautiful there than it is around Pattaya-Jomtien. And you have the same types of islands offshore to look at. In many places, you have cliffs where very fancy houses or hotels or condos could be built.

Sihanoukville, also, seemed safer to me than PP. Still.......it has a long way to go. But for investors that want to get in on the ground floor of development, it might be worth looking at.

[Begbie]

btw a beer (0.5 liter) in the Spotted Cow is 20,000VND, about $1.20 at the time, except in happy hours it will set you back 10,000. So if you like the suds, as BT would say, mosey on over.

In Cambodia draft and canned beers range from 50c (17 baht) up to $2 (70 baht) in the expensive places . Shorts are usually $1(35b) to $3 (105 baht).

There are plenty of nice, farang managed and staffed bars around with 75c beer. The places are well decked out with friendly service and professional management. The same applies to the restaurants.

In Thailand it used to cost me as a bar owner 20 baht wholesale for the cheapest beer! Singha and tiger are 25 Baht to the bar owner!!

So my customers where paying 50-70b ($1.40-2.00) and my prices were cheap. In other bars in areas such as the Suk area in Bkk or Walking St in Pattaya a beer is usually 100b ($3). They are just ordinary bars to me with nothing flash and the Thai management often leave little to be desired.

Now I'm drinking it as a customer in Cambodia at less than the wholesale price in Thailand.

Sweeeeeet.

Edited May 1, 2007 by Begbie

[KireB]

Funny how people compare the attractiveness of a country based on the price of beer.

The beer index instead of the Big Mac index?

[Begbie]

Funny how people compare the attractiveness of a country based on the price of beer.

The beer index instead of the Big Mac index?

Got that right sweetheart.

[calmichael]

Cambodia is a depressing bloody awful place, a long way behind Thailand in development and everything else, btw. A country that can go to war on itself and murder roughly 25% of its own population (this is only 30 yrs ago) is a safe destination for foreigners? Right.

Very sensitive point here. Khmer Rouge was financially supported by USA and Thailand. The people of Cambodia never killed themselves. They are victims of the biggest scam ever pulled upon a race! Sponsored genocide!

VIVA THE USA!

Wrong! The khmer Rouge were supported by communist governments. The USA supported the Lon Nol government who unsuccessfully fought the KR.

VIVA IGNORANCE!

We problably have different history books, but you're wrong.

CIA supported Khmer Rouge. Weapons came in via Singapore.

The communists fought the KR for years and even after the genocide.

Vietnam was a safe haven for a lot of Cambodians!

Where do you get this shit. I can only attribute it to DWT - Drinking While Typing.

[PhilHarries]

Funny how people compare the attractiveness of a country based on the price of beer.

The beer index instead of the Big Mac index?

Only using beer price as an indication of how Thailand is losing it's competetive edge in the region.

btw I can drink cheaper here in KL than a lot of bars in Bangkok and Pattaya and, as Begbie said, they aint anything special. Admitted in the better establishments here that is considering happy hours but other small bars and restaurants are about the same. But that's one of the bugbears of living in an Islamic state. That and I can buy a bottle of wine anytime during the afternoon oh, nearly forgot, all that alchohol advertising we have to put up with, seems like the government here treats it's population as adults.

[JR Texas]

Cambodia is a depressing bloody awful place, a long way behind Thailand in development and everything else, btw. A country that can go to war on itself and murder roughly 25% of its own population (this is only 30 yrs ago) is a safe destination for foreigners? Right.

Very sensitive point here. Khmer Rouge was financially supported by USA and Thailand. The people of Cambodia never killed themselves. They are victims of the biggest scam ever pulled upon a race! Sponsored genocide!

VIVA THE USA!

Wrong! The khmer Rouge were supported by communist governments. The USA supported the Lon Nol government who unsuccessfully fought the KR.

VIVA IGNORANCE!

We problably have different history books, but you're wrong.

CIA supported Khmer Rouge. Weapons came in via Singapore.

The communists fought the KR for years and even after the genocide.

Vietnam was a safe haven for a lot of Cambodians!

Where do you get this shit. I can only attribute it to DWT - Drinking While Typing.

JR Texas: Seems like we are "off topic." But, my two cents: During the Vietnam War our opponents crossed the border into Cambodia in an attempt to avoid us. Our response (Nixon's response) was to bomb the hel_l out of many areas in Cambodia.

In the process we ended up killing many innocent Cambodians. They got pissed, naturally. Pol Pot, supported in large part by the CHINESE, went to many of the villages we (i.e., Americans) had bombed and effectively recruited many Cambodians to join his "little party." He told the new recruits that those that rule in PP (govt. and business leaders and intellectuals) were helping the Americans to bomb the Cambodians.

The ploy worked..........an army was formed comprised of pissed off village boys and young men......they marched towards PP, eventually took it over.........moved the locals out to work on the farms and then engaged in the horror of genocide.

Who is to blame? Americans, Chinese, Vietnamese and Cambodians. Who did most of the killing? Very young and ignorant Cambodians that had been blinded by a psychopathic mass murderer. Did I miss something?

This discussion reminds me a scene from a Clint Eastwood movie. Eastwood's character was hired to murder someone. He took on a young partner who had never killed any other person. The young guy finally shot a man in a toilet (first kill). Later Eastwood's character and the young man were talking to each other underneath a tree at the top of a hill. The young man was upset and said, "well.......he had it coming, right? I mean, he had it coming' right?" At that point Eastwood looked down at him and said, "Kid, we all got it coming."

Now, what is the subject of this thread: Cambodia and Vietnam: Bad Alternatives to Thailand?

[dumspero]

Wow- this is mind boggling. The US caused the terror in Cambodia. Guess they started the Vietnam war and the Korean war too.

Hey, here's a thought. The USSR and China were in an expansionist mode and they found fertile ground in certain SE Asian countries where the rural poor were basically disenfranchised and didn't see a better solution. Those countries, along with the US and other countries, then responded ineffectively. But let's not worry about the difference between cause and aggravating factors in our rush to condemn the US for every single thing, huh?

This relates to my OP. Cambodia and Vietnam remain long term unstable compared to Thailand because, compared to Thailand, their governments are a mess. And it seems to me the weight of posts on the messy details in those countries only supports that view.

[misterme]

Looks like we're not the only ones having these thoughts.

From our friend Stickman:

Stickman Weekly - 22 April 2007 - Alternatives To Thailand

[KireB]

Cambodia is a depressing bloody awful place, a long way behind Thailand in development and everything else, btw. A country that can go to war on itself and murder roughly 25% of its own population (this is only 30 yrs ago) is a safe destination for foreigners? Right.

Very sensitive point here. Khmer Rouge was financially supported by USA and Thailand. The people of Cambodia never killed themselves. They are victims of the biggest scam ever pulled upon a race! Sponsored genocide!

VIVA THE USA!

Wrong! The khmer Rouge were supported by communist governments. The USA supported the Lon Nol government who unsuccessfully fought the KR.

VIVA IGNORANCE!

We problably have different history books, but you're wrong.

CIA supported Khmer Rouge. Weapons came in via Singapore.

The communists fought the KR for years and even after the genocide.

Vietnam was a safe haven for a lot of Cambodians!

Where do you get this shit. I can only attribute it to DWT - Drinking While Typing.

Under the belt this one!

[KireB]

Who is to blame? Americans, Chinese, Vietnamese and Cambodians. Who did most of the killing? Very young and ignorant Cambodians that had been blinded by a psychopathic mass murderer. Did I miss something?

This discussion reminds me a scene from a Clint Eastwood movie. Eastwood's character was hired to murder someone. He took on a young partner who had never killed any other person. The young guy finally shot a man in a toilet (first kill). Later Eastwood's character and the young man were talking to each other underneath a tree at the top of a hill. The young man was upset and said, "well.......he had it coming, right? I mean, he had it coming' right?" At that point Eastwood looked down at him and said, "Kid, we all got it coming."

Now, what is the subject of this thread: Cambodia and Vietnam: Bad Alternatives to Thailand?

This way of thinking is problably the sole reason that most people in the world are not really fond of people from the land of hamburgers. I mean to say: they had it coming! What about 9/11, you had it coming?

I am out of this discussion!

[Hawkup2000]

Wow- this is mind boggling. The US caused the terror in Cambodia. Guess they started the Vietnam war and the Korean war too.

Wong! US never starts wars. They only invade other countries bucuse they only defend their territories. Thats why they made Laos the most bombed country in history on this planet...

[makrook]

Nevertheless, the KR was entirely a communist operation. "Khmer" translates to "red" in French, and France is where Pol Pot got his Marxist ideologies,

ok, I won't argue more on history as it's just not possible with proud americans.

just a last off topic one frome me : in wich part of france does "khmer" translate to "red" .. ?

not the one I come from for sure.

[Naam]

Where do you get this shit. I can only attribute it to DWT - Drinking While Typing.

this shit is called facts of history and no amount of booze will change these facts.

[dumspero]

Makrook- can't argue with "proud Americans" huh? It looks to me like you can't engage in a logical discussion. Is that one-liner re the 'rouge' and kmer the best you have?

Guess I could say something about the French people but I don't think such generalizations have any validity or role in a discussion re whether Cambodia is stable. Except it is fair though to note that France also played a big role in screwing up the region.