Pesticides Used On Vegetables Sold At Outdoor Markets?

[webworldly]

Greetings!!

I'm hoping one of our farmers here can help answer a question. I'd like to know about the use of pesticides used in the production process (from seed all the way to market) for the average vegetable lot sold at the average outdoor market. (Things like Kat Na, Marat, No Mai Fa Long, Broccoli, etc.)

How heavy (if at all) is the use of any "stuff" that is harmful to human health is used along the way? What (if any) are those things? Hmmm....any additional thoughts related to this would also be appreciated.

I luuuuuuuvs me veggies!

CHEERS!

D

[Maizefarmer]

Very valid question - Wash all veggies you purchase from markets before eating. That's putting it diplomatically.

Use of pesticides in Thailand is so high it borders on been criminal - and treat "organic" statements with caution & suspicion.

MF

[webworldly]

Very valid question - Wash all veggies you purchase from markets before eating. That's putting it diplomatically.

Use of pesticides in Thailand is so high it borders on been criminal - and treat "organic" statements with caution & suspicion.

MF

Wow! Maizefarmer.....that's so different than I thought (hoped?) the response would be. I pictured local farmers doing less "unnatural" stuff to their crops than what in my mind I pictured the larger commercial farms using.

Not so, eh?

Can you share a bit more as far as specifics?

CHEERS!

D

[Maizefarmer]

Go to Google and type in "pesticide usage in thailand" - that'll tell you all you need to know (and be concerned about!).

Thai farmers lack education in the correct use of pesticides - in particular usage in fruit growing, but veggie farming is not far behind.

MF

[Pond Life]

It seems to be part of Thai culture,

If a little bit is good, then alot must be even better,

& a truck full must be bloody fantastic.

[chownah]

It seems to be part of Thai culture,

If a little bit is good, then alot must be even better,

& a truck full must be bloody fantastic.

It's not just Thai people....a westerner's reaction here on the forum when talking about the bugs in Thailand was, "These guys are going to get a heavy dose of [name of pesticide omitted].............."

[lotus eater]

I try to avoid this menace, as much as practicable, by buying doi kham veggies; but am stumped about where to find organic fruit or eggs. In/around Chiang Mai.

(Wild fish seems nearly impossible to find too.)

[btate]

It seems to be part of Thai culture,

If a little bit is good, then alot must be even better,

& a truck full must be bloody fantastic.

It's not just Thai people....a westerner's reaction here on the forum when talking about the bugs in Thailand was, "These guys are going to get a heavy dose of [name of pesticide omitted].............."

Nothing like lifting a "tongue-in-cheek" comment totally out of context eh?

For those that haven't read, I've been battling a myriad of 'bugs' here in Chantaburi. You name it and I've probably got them within a 100 meters or so: aphids, leaf hopper, (two types), beetles, night beetles, leaf miners etc. etc. Chownah and I do not see eye to eye on his methods of pest control out in the middle of the jungle/fruit orchards. His holistic methods just don't hack it if you want to do anything other than home garden variety veggies.

An example is leaf miners. Now there are probalby two dozen leaf miner type insects. (These guys lay eggs inside the leaf and the 'eggs' hatch and eat just the inside until they are big enough to bust out. Leaving nice little random tunnels in the leaf that sap its strength and eventually make that leaf useless." I did quite a bit of research on these pesky critters and could find only two "natural" solutions. The first was to buy 250 parasitic wasps ( would work well in a closed environment I'm sure but in the middle of fruit orchards???? Cost was $110 USD, then try and get a recognized pest through the Thai customs... .duh.... the other was to purchase specialized (read genetically modified) nematodes.... not.

So the crux is that I've been battling pests. OK so I made a comment re. the insecticide. I've also done a fair amount of research on the insecticide I targeted. Turns out that I'll probalby forgo that until I've reached production stages of growth. Just too much hassle and risk for a few plants. I'll go with another that is less suseptible to mistakes while I'm learning.

So, Chownah if you want to take everything I write verbatim... go jump in a klong

Bt

[Maizefarmer]

It seems to be part of Thai culture,

If a little bit is good, then alot must be even better,

& a truck full must be bloody fantastic.

It's not just Thai people....a westerner's reaction here on the forum when talking about the bugs in Thailand was, "These guys are going to get a heavy dose of [name of pesticide omitted].............."

Nothing like lifting a "tongue-in-cheek" comment totally out of context eh?

For those that haven't read, I've been battling a myriad of 'bugs' here in Chantaburi. You name it and I've probably got them within a 100 meters or so: aphids, leaf hopper, (two types), beetles, night beetles, leaf miners etc. etc. Chownah and I do not see eye to eye on his methods of pest control out in the middle of the jungle/fruit orchards. His holistic methods just don't hack it if you want to do anything other than home garden variety veggies.

An example is leaf miners. Now there are probalby two dozen leaf miner type insects. (These guys lay eggs inside the leaf and the 'eggs' hatch and eat just the inside until they are big enough to bust out. Leaving nice little random tunnels in the leaf that sap its strength and eventually make that leaf useless." I did quite a bit of research on these pesky critters and could find only two "natural" solutions. The first was to buy 250 parasitic wasps ( would work well in a closed environment I'm sure but in the middle of fruit orchards???? Cost was $110 USD, then try and get a recognized pest through the Thai customs... .duh.... the other was to purchase specialized (read genetically modified) nematodes.... not.

So the crux is that I've been battling pests. OK so I made a comment re. the insecticide. I've also done a fair amount of research on the insecticide I targeted. Turns out that I'll probalby forgo that until I've reached production stages of growth. Just too much hassle and risk for a few plants. I'll go with another that is less suseptible to mistakes while I'm learning.

So, Chownah if you want to take everything I write verbatim... go jump in a klong

Bt

No no Btate - you can't say that - the guys comment was 1million per cent valid - I mean after all, us foreigners must be responsible, oh now - let me guess, around 0.0005% of all the insecticide poured into the Thai enviroment - or perhaps it's our excessive use of soap suds (!).

Here here - another classic Chownah contribution!

MF

[chownah]

It seems to be part of Thai culture,

If a little bit is good, then alot must be even better,

& a truck full must be bloody fantastic.

It's not just Thai people....a westerner's reaction here on the forum when talking about the bugs in Thailand was, "These guys are going to get a heavy dose of [name of pesticide omitted].............."

I haven't named any names. I even did not give the name of the pesticide thinking that it would point at someone so I eliminated it to try to keep this issue anonymous. My point is that westerners sometimes have the urge to use more pesticides from the view that more is better....this is not a problem that only Thai people create....and I stand by this....some westerners do over use pesticides.

Not only did a poster post what I presented above but another poster seemed to share my concern because this poster replied, "[name of pesticide omitted] is 100% safe if the instructions are followed - don;t be fooled by the litle amount of [name omitted again] that has to be applied - you'll think, surely it can't be that little? - well, I assure you it is." When I read this I interpreted it to be a reminder that enough is enough and best not to overdo it....I was happy that this reply which came from a very experienced farmer was made as I felt that it would reduce the chances of overuse and that this was his concern with the reply. I guess I'm not the only one who took the "heavy dose" comment seriously.

Chownah

[Maizefarmer]

It seems to be part of Thai culture,

If a little bit is good, then alot must be even better,

& a truck full must be bloody fantastic.

It's not just Thai people....a westerner's reaction here on the forum when talking about the bugs in Thailand was, "These guys are going to get a heavy dose of [name of pesticide omitted].............."

I haven't named any names. I even did not give the name of the pesticide thinking that it would point at someone so I eliminated it to try to keep this issue anonymous. My point is that westerners sometimes have the urge to use more pesticides from the view that more is better....this is not a problem that only Thai people create....and I stand by this....some westerners do over use pesticides.

Not only did a poster post what I presented above but another poster seemed to share my concern because this poster replied, "[name of pesticide omitted] is 100% safe if the instructions are followed - don;t be fooled by the litle amount of [name omitted again] that has to be applied - you'll think, surely it can't be that little? - well, I assure you it is." When I read this I interpreted it to be a reminder that enough is enough and best not to overdo it....I was happy that this reply which came from a very experienced farmer was made as I felt that it would reduce the chances of overuse and that this was his concern with the reply. I guess I'm not the only one who took the "heavy dose" comment seriously.

Chownah

Yes - I'm he one that wrote its 100% safe if used as per directions - ME.

....... "name omitted" - you make me laugh - just whay kind of comment is that, "name omitted" ..... oh dear, oh dear me.

Listen to your self, "try to keep it annonymous", and "westeners sometimes have the urge to use more pesticides ....."

Honestly Chownah - did you really see the OP's question against a background of foreigners usage of pesticide in Thailand as opposed to the subject in it's context??

Oh dear oh dear ............

[Pink Mist]

lets calm down guys, this is meant to be an exchange of information, lets keep it that way

[Maizefarmer]

Well - why don't you modrators do something about it - the guy has been playing up like this from the start - you only have to go look at his track record on other TV threads and forums to know this is an ongoing problem with him.

Have words with him - do something about it - and then the forum members won't have to.

MF

Edited April 30, 2007 by Maizefarmer

[Khonwan]

It seems to be part of Thai culture,

If a little bit is good, then alot must be even better,

& a truck full must be bloody fantastic.

It's not just Thai people....a westerner's reaction here on the forum when talking about the bugs in Thailand was, "These guys are going to get a heavy dose of [name of pesticide omitted].............."

I haven't named any names. I even did not give the name of the pesticide thinking that it would point at someone so I eliminated it to try to keep this issue anonymous. My point is that westerners sometimes have the urge to use more pesticides from the view that more is better....this is not a problem that only Thai people create....and I stand by this....some westerners do over use pesticides.

Not only did a poster post what I presented above but another poster seemed to share my concern because this poster replied, "[name of pesticide omitted] is 100% safe if the instructions are followed - don;t be fooled by the litle amount of [name omitted again] that has to be applied - you'll think, surely it can't be that little? - well, I assure you it is." When I read this I interpreted it to be a reminder that enough is enough and best not to overdo it....I was happy that this reply which came from a very experienced farmer was made as I felt that it would reduce the chances of overuse and that this was his concern with the reply. I guess I'm not the only one who took the "heavy dose" comment seriously.

Chownah

Chownah,

I have to doubt your sincerity here. I immediately knew that you were quoting from Btate as soon as I read your post...and I have a most dreadful memory. I therefore assume that a great many other regular readers of this forum must also have recognised the target of your personal attack. You could quite easily have made your general point without resorting to your (ab)use of a direct quote had you not courted a backlash.

Edited April 30, 2007 by Khonwan

[chownah]

It seems to be part of Thai culture,

If a little bit is good, then alot must be even better,

& a truck full must be bloody fantastic.

It's not just Thai people....a westerner's reaction here on the forum when talking about the bugs in Thailand was, "These guys are going to get a heavy dose of [name of pesticide omitted].............."

I haven't named any names. I even did not give the name of the pesticide thinking that it would point at someone so I eliminated it to try to keep this issue anonymous. My point is that westerners sometimes have the urge to use more pesticides from the view that more is better....this is not a problem that only Thai people create....and I stand by this....some westerners do over use pesticides.

Not only did a poster post what I presented above but another poster seemed to share my concern because this poster replied, "[name of pesticide omitted] is 100% safe if the instructions are followed - don;t be fooled by the litle amount of [name omitted again] that has to be applied - you'll think, surely it can't be that little? - well, I assure you it is." When I read this I interpreted it to be a reminder that enough is enough and best not to overdo it....I was happy that this reply which came from a very experienced farmer was made as I felt that it would reduce the chances of overuse and that this was his concern with the reply. I guess I'm not the only one who took the "heavy dose" comment seriously.

Chownah

I maintain that some westerners do overuse pesticides sometimes and that this is not just a Thai problem. This assertion of mine is something I said to supplement what Pond Life posted. I wasn't trying to argue with Pond Life because I think what he posted is valid...I think he is correct when he indicates that there is a tendency in Thailand among many people to think that if some is good then more is better....I agree completely with this....I was just trying to extend his comments to include some westerners too.....in fact I think that quite often this sentiment IS correct....if something is good then quite often more is better but we all know that for most things there is an optimum value and going over this is not better but worse...and I think most Thai people realise this too. Is there some controversy on this? Do people disagree with me? If so then I'm happy to hear your comments and an explanation on why you disagree.....this is the topic we are discussing. Would anyone like to discuss it?

Chownah

[Somtham]

Well - why don't you modrators do something about it - the guy has been playing up like this from the start - you only have to go look at his track record on other TV threads and forums to know this is an ongoing problem with him.

Have words with him - do something about it - and then the forum members won't have to.

MF

Careful Maize. He's got 5,000+ posts under his belt. Next week he may BE a moderator.

Ah, and I now see the typical back pedal has just come out.

welcome home

rgds

[Pond Life]

Back on topic, almost.

Maize, you've mentioned Actara & Karate Zeon as your weapons of choice.

I've got a problem with my insects boring inside the branches of my Mango tree's, I opened a topic on this but didnt get any takers, so Im tempted to try one of these 2.

However I'm thinking spraying 3 m high tree's is going to be difficult & the bugs are inside, so might not be effective.

I'd prefer to apply something to be taken up by the roots, but for Actara they seem to be saying you can only do this with potatoes (why would that be ?), so from the Syngenta site Karate Z sounds the thing.

Does this sound like a good idea ?

If I go ahead & use Karate Z, & I dilute it exactly to the instructions on the bottle, how much of the dilute mixture would I apply (irrigate) to each tree ?

Ta

[Maizefarmer]

They'll work, no question about it - they both have good systemic properties - but what I can't say, is whether or not they're going to be your best choice(s) - both are pricey options, esepcially for large scale orchad application.

The issue with Actara and soil application is a state eviromental health restriction applicable in the USA - the user market for which the notes you have been reading have been written for (spillage, waste and cross contaimenation with other piped water systems) - not that it won't work with other crops. It does work, and works very well indeed applied to the soil with a whole range of crops.

My concern with fruit trees is half life retention in the fruit - I simply don't know enough about it in this kind of usage - it could have a very different rentention mode, it could have a different half life in the fruit (longer), in which case it will not be safe (despite working), so I am reluctant to suggest it - I simply don't know.

In any event foilage application is generally accepted to be the best form for fruit tree application. Theres a product called ARDENT made by Bayer Cropscience which is certainly one of the options to consider, but my be dificult to get hold of. Failing that, hunt around for an insecticide with an active ingredient called chlorpyrifos - very popular in the fruit tree farming business.

Thts the best I can offer I'm afraid

MF

[Lickey]

I have been following the general gist of this forum, and im wondering if sprayed fruits with skins such as apple, orange, mango, mangosteen, banana,lamyai, lychee,ect ect , ie a fruit that can be peeled or skinned will contain remenants of the spray inside?

[SAP]

Hello Gentleman

This has been a big learning curve for me, coming to Thailand and doing vegetable production on a large scale. The biggest enemies have been "corn earworn" "tropical armyworm" and thrips.

As previously stated on this thread, lack of education, poor use of chemicals and tropical climate where 25 cycles per year can happen, and also now a move away from high toxic chemicals due H&Saftey issues. Has left the farmers in Thailand with limited resources, and a growing resistance to chemicals available.

Best advice is

Be positive with your insect identification; some insecticides are very specific in their mode of action.

Have an understanding of how chemical resistance happens. (in summary if you kill 98% of targeted insects you may have left 2% that got a small dose, and then they will reproduce and may in the future breed partial or complete resistance to the chemical).

Make sure you have good application equipment that can give 100% full cover

Usually use high pressure, but note some chemicals especially some organic compunds may become un-stable at high pressure

Read label and follow instuctions carefully. If unsure test small quantity. If unsure and do not have time for testing use high rate of chemical.

Each label should have info on last application recommended before harvesting (this is definitely not followed by locals).

You will be able to read the label, you will find it on the internet, maybe not the registered label for Thailand but something that gives you enough info.

Recommendations

For Caterpillars, there are 2 forms of Bacterai baccillegius (don't know how to spell that) Commonly known as Bt. Check out www.thepwattana.com for more info. This is organic and is very good.

Rimon is a new chemical very good on caterpiallars, it is expensive, I like it as it has very little systemic properites.

AS MF recommended Chlorpyrifos, although when I use this now I always mix it with a pyrethroid like cpyermethrin. I have started to see some resistance to this chemcial.

And I have found the ultimate mix is Karatre with chlorpyrifos. But I would only use this in an extreme emergencies. And is expensive to do.

I hope this helps

[Pond Life]

MF, what would be your worst case scenario guess for the half life of Actara or KZ in Mango tree.

Anything I use will be after all the Mango's have been picked in a month or so, this will give me 6-8 months before the tree's flower again.

Ta

[Maizefarmer]

MF, what would be your worst case scenario guess for the half life of Actara or KZ in Mango tree.

Anything I use will be after all the Mango's have been picked in a month or so, this will give me 6-8 months before the tree's flower again.

Ta

From what I can estblish if youre going to apply after you've picked the fruit, and apply the last dose no later than when the next set of buds start, that should be fine.

[btate]

Pond Life

After yesterday's admonition on Actara use by MF I went and found everything I could about its use. I came across this 'new' application for mango trees. It describes exactly how to use and gives all the info you need. Its two PDF pages so easy to print.

http://www.syngenta.com.au/Content/Product...00%20Permit.pdf

As it turns out I'm not going to use it due to the closeness of water (I'm a solid 9 iron from 4 farm ponds) and I'm basically only about two meters above the ground water. Run off and overspray here would be a cause for real concern.

Bt

[Pond Life]

Thanks for the advice & particularly the link,

So let me check this to make sure I've got it 100% correct.

Its saying, take 6 grams of Actara, put it in 1 liter of water & give that 1 liter to 1 tree. Correct ?

How many applications should I make before flowering starts ?

ta

[Maizefarmer]

Well well - there you go, it's used and cleared in Aussie on mango trees.

You got it 6grams p/tree - personally I would not use 1 litre - I'd be inclined to mix it into 2 or 3 litres - that will help root uptake.

One application will be sufficient

MF

Edited May 1, 2007 by Maizefarmer

[btate]

Thanks for the advice & particularly the link,

So let me check this to make sure I've got it 100% correct.

Its saying, take 6 grams of Actara, put it in 1 liter of water & give that 1 liter to 1 tree. Correct ?

How many applications should I make before flowering starts ?

ta

I've seen no information on multiple applications, other than one remark that "multiple applications may be needed in areas of heavy infestation.....". This was not specifically mentioned on the permit for mango. Somewhere else I do recall reading that you should not use within a 180 day window prior to flowering. Don't take that to the bank as I can't find it right now.

EDIT: MF is correct, as they recommend if using drippers to apply directly underneath the dripper to insure lots of water to spread it out.

Bt

Edited May 1, 2007 by btate

[Pond Life]

OK, got it, thanks for all your help.

[Lickey]

Hi all, i think my little post got lost in the heat, just wondered if these fruit sprays infiltrated the fruits skin?

Also could somebody tell me a good fruit-set spray, i seem to be loosing a lot of new papaya fruit/flowers due to the recent winds and heavy rain, Thanks in advance, Lickey..

[Maizefarmer]

Lickey

Yes - most foilage/contact type insecticides do penetrate the skin - and some are specificly matrixed to be absorbed through the skin and spread systemically through the entire plant. And the ones specifically talked about on this thread? Yes - they fall into this lasyt catorgory - and there they will stay (i.e. in the plant) in some cases for months and months before they change or breakdown.

MF

[Lickey]

Thanks MF, i was hoping the fruit would be unaffected, but not so, oh well, will stick to fruit off our farm that has never been sprayed,

the Other question was, do you good farmers know of a good fruit-setting spray, cos the winds and rain are knocking of new papaya flowers and fruits, Thanks, Lickey..