Britain says Brexit trade deal can be reached, but not at any cost

[Hi from France]

By the way (and although negociations will still last years and years)

 

Barnier was the single negociator for the EU, but the UK had successive chief negociators

 

Let's rank them (EU point of view).

• David Davis was considered "a tourist" by the EU: the guy arrived with his hands in his pocket and thinking the UK had the upper hand. Very little was achieved under his watch and a lot of precious time was lost.
• Olly Robbins was the best: serious, competent. Led the british team like a trustworthy professional, got things done. Do not forget britain, is if not the best, one of the very best diplomatic nations in the world. 
• Frost is in the middle. Not good, not a train wreck either but Britain usually has much much better material. Now top UK diplomats are not brexiters, of course, and they got sidelined or fired . And has a boss, he has Johnson 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Davis_(British_politician)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olly_Robbins

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Frost,_Baron_Frost

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Hi from France

[JonnyF]

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

My opinion on that is that this is completely false, and your adversarial vision of what a international negociation is is very, very far from reality. 

 

 

 

 

and if we move up the scale to Frost's boss : as far as BJ is concerned, he makes the job a middle-ranking diplomat negociating with a stronger party even harder....

 

 

I don't really understand your post.

 

But I love the way you cut out my question about the treaty. Well done.

 

I will ask you for the third time. Which treaty did we break, and when did we break it?

[Hi from France]

6 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I don't really understand your post

Sorry I hope other posters can

 

And for the other thing that you do not know about 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Market_Bill

[JonnyF]

36 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

Sorry I hope other posters can

 

And for the other thing that you do not know about 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Market_Bill

You cut out my question again. 

 

Fourth time. Which treaty did we break? And when did we break it ? 

 

The internal market bill hasn't even been passed yet, let alone enacted.

 

So which treaty did we break? And when?

[RayC]

7 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Which treaty have we broken? When did we break it? Oh that's right, we haven't broken any treaty. 

A bill, which is currently passing through the UK parliament, will - if it becomes law -allow the UK government to break international law. Better?

 

"On September 2020, (Brandon) Lewis (UK government Minister) provoked controversy when he conceded that a bill designed to amend the United Kingdom's withdrawal agreement with the European Union would "break international law" in a "specific and limited way" (Source: Wikipedia)

[joecoolfrog]

On 11/26/2020 at 1:19 PM, Loiner said:

The EU's breakthough hasn't happened for the past year, so is not likely to happen. While ever the Barnier's demands still include the UK's fish; the EU sloping field; ECJ governance; or any of the other points they have not published, nothing is going to breakthrough.

 

The EU's recent idea of being creative seems to be just a recyling of the repeat spin cycle. Roll on No Deal.

The deal is already done , both sides are just putting their best spin on it, nobody in a responsible position wanted no agreement.

[joecoolfrog]

19 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I almost felt sorry for Liz Truss today when Emily Thornburry spent over 5 minutes in the commons documenting Truss's consistent lies and failures over the disastrous UK-Japan trade deal, and pointed out how the UK government's own figures show that the EU-Japan deal is superior. Then I remembered that she is Liz Truss and a Tory, and all sympathy evaporated instantly. 

 

 

To be fair , and you would struggle to disagree , I would feel pity for anybody spending 5 minutes in the company of Ms Thornburry.

[Hi from France]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

The internal market bill hasn't even been passed yet, let alone enacted.

ah I think I see what you mean : the IBM is just for laughs?

[Loiner]

1 hour ago, joecoolfrog said:

The deal is already done , both sides are just putting their best spin on it, nobody in a responsible position wanted no agreement.

Is this a fly on the wall report, or just your opinion?

[7by7]

Of course the EU want a trade deal with the UK. But they certainly have a lot less to lose from no deal than we do!

 

Just one example of what no deal could cost us: Nissan warns on its UK future without a Brexit deal

Quote

(Nissan's chief operating officer) Mr Gupta told the BBC the EU was the Sunderland factory's biggest customer and warned that Nissan's commitment could not be maintained if there was not tariff-free EU access.

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by 7by7
typos

[7by7]

8 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Which treaty have we broken? When did we break it? Oh that's right, we haven't broken any treaty. 

 Not yet, but Boris is currently pushing a bill through Parliament which if passed will allow him to break the WA any time he wishes.

 

And you accuse the EU of being underhand!

[7by7]

5 hours ago, Surelynot said:

Oh what a shame this wasn't to a packed house.

 

Maybe HIGNFY will use it to replace this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YxhIq6t6Fk, which is getting a bit old now.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by 7by7
Addendum

[puipuitom]

13 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are one nation. Gibraltar and The Falklands (this forum has rules that include using the English Language) both chose to remain British in democratic referendums.

 

The EU isn't a sovereign nation. Not even a federal state. But a trading bloc slowly moving to ever closer union as decided by bureaucrats.

You mean: the EU council, with as members the heads of government of the EU member states + the EU commission, with as members one delegate of each EU member state, and.. the EU Parliament, with as members... elected persons by the citizens of the EU member states. The bureaucrats you mention are  - just as in the UK and any government - only for one reason: to serve.

Just ONE DIFFERENCE with one year ago: No BRITISH in it anymore.

[puipuitom]

On 11/26/2020 at 8:41 PM, bartender100 said:

Says it all about the EU, when one man negotiates for 27 nations

You mean: one = Barnier, who has a mandate from 27 nations. Elected for his skills. His British counterpart: passed with one more vote as all others in the barony "6 cottages on ditch"

[Hi from France]

Get ready for Brexit they say.. 

Quote

After four years of politics and prevarication, Brexit is about to become a test of competence rather than conviction.

 

 

Quote

In less than five weeks, decades of free movement of goods and people, and a generation of harmonised standards and regulation will end.

 

What happens next, well, we still cannot be sure. Negotiations continue over a choice between no-deal, or a thin free-trade agreement that will be just the starting point for years more discussion.

 

But irrespective of what finally emerges, the UK's borders will see a hard reset of rules that have applied throughout the working lives of those that use and police it.

 

From breezing through borders barely showing a passport, all UK exports to the EU will have to make detailed customs declarations for every consignment they send.

 

Quote

In total, this new pile of red tape will run to 270 million customs declarations a year, and, in practice, responsibility will fall to hauliers and drivers, 3.5 million of whom cross the short Channel straits into Kent, largely through Dover, every year.

https://news.sky.com/story/a-portable-cabin-and-google-translate-life-on-the-brexit-haulage-frontline-12143243

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Get ready for Brexit they say.. 

 

 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/a-portable-cabin-and-google-translate-life-on-the-brexit-haulage-frontline-12143243

 

still,

hords of pommies shout for it to end now without any deal

[evadgib]

PM call with Irish Taoiseach: 27 November 2020

Quote

They discussed the progress in the UK-EU trade negotiations and the Prime Minister underlined his commitment to reaching a deal that respects the sovereignty of the UK. The leaders also reaffirmed the need to prioritise the Good Friday Agreement and avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland.

 

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, evadgib said:

PM call with Irish Taoiseach: 27 November 2020

 

Do you believe "prioritize the Good Friday Agreement" means reneging on it?

[evadgib]

20 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Do you believe "prioritize the Good Friday Agreement" means reneging on it?

When coupled with "...and avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland"?

[Surelynot]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

still,

hords of pommies shout for it to end now without any deal

In total, this new pile of red tape will run to 270 million customs declarations a year, and, in practice, responsibility will fall to hauliers and drivers, 3.5 million of whom cross the short Channel straits into Kent, largely through Dover, every year.

 

What a farce.

[JonnyF]

11 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 Not yet, but Boris is currently pushing a bill through Parliament which if passed will allow him to break the WA any time he wishes.

 

And you accuse the EU of being underhand!

 

I only needed the first 2 words of your post. The rest was fluff.

 

It's like accusing someone of murder because they have a knife in their pocket. If the EU doesn't try to cut off NI from the UK that knife will stay in the pocket.

 

 

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

20 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

It's like accusing someone of murder because they have a knife in their pocket. If the EU doesn't try to cut off NI from the UK that knife will stay in the pocket.

Too bad you’re not even allowed to carry a knife in your pocket, and no one is accusing you of murder but of carrying a knife that you’re not allowed to carry. 

[placeholder]

51 minutes ago, evadgib said:

When coupled with "...and avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland"?

And that changes the sense how?

[placeholder]

35 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

I only needed the first 2 words of your post. The rest was fluff.

 

It's like accusing someone of murder because they have a knife in their pocket. If the EU doesn't try to cut off NI from the UK that knife will stay in the pocket.

 

 

 

 

Actually it's like accusing someone who's holding a knife to your throat and threatens to use it unless you comply with their demands.

[evadgib]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And that changes the sense how?

It was the second half of the text you selectively quoted.

 

"They discussed the progress in the UK-EU trade negotiations and the Prime Minister underlined his commitment to reaching a deal that respects the sovereignty of the UK. The leaders also reaffirmed the need to prioritise the Good Friday Agreement and avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland".

Edited November 28, 2020 by evadgib

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, evadgib said:

It was the second half of the text you selectively quoted.

 

"They discussed the progress in the UK-EU trade negotiations and the Prime Minister underlined his commitment to reaching a deal that respects the sovereignty of the UK. The leaders also reaffirmed the need to prioritise the Good Friday Agreement and avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland".

I selectively quoted it because it was the relevant passage re: the border. Keep in mind that Johnson previously agreed to what he wants to renege on now. So previously he accepted an agreement that didn't respect the border?

[evadgib]

24 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I selectively quoted it because it was the relevant passage re: the border. Keep in mind that Johnson previously agreed to what he wants to renege on now. So previously he accepted an agreement that didn't respect the border?

How about 'he previously accepted the agreement not realizing the ???????? would maliciously threaten to pries part of the ???????? away'?  

[placeholder]

37 minutes ago, evadgib said:

How about 'he previously accepted the agreement not realizing the ???????? would maliciously threaten to pries part of the ???????? away'?  

Well, if Johnson truly didn't understand the implications of the agreement, what does that say about the perspicacity of him and his advisors?  They had better not negotiate free trade deals with anyone or they're going to be eaten alive.

[Hi from France]

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

It's like accusing someone of murder because they have a knife in their pocket. If the EU doesn't try to cut off NI from the UK that knife will stay in the pocket.

so your argument is that the internal market bill is just a bluff, like a big knife, and in fact reneging on a treaty had no impact because it's not effective yet?

 

Based on data, not just posts without arguments or tabloid-based, please How do you think this "knife in the pocket" strategy turned out, JonnyF?

 

 

I'm supposed you can comment on the fact that beside fishing and level playing field as a condition for accessing the EU market, there is now a third blocking point in negociations: what Barnier politely calls "governance". In other words, "how to enforce a deal when you know the other party just reneged on a previous treaty", in other words "how can you deal with a liar"? This is extremely complicated as arbitration mechanisms between states take years to take effect, so the UK would surely starting cheating even before the ink is dry. Trust is the foundation of treaties, and the UK lost the "my word is my bond" card.

 

 

 

 

In my books, there are very real consequences and this is effectively reneging on the treaty Boris just signed (and claimed it was a big victory for the UK).

 

I await your post, but to me, your argument is like saying the UK has nuclear missiles, but this is fact has absolutely no importance as long as they are not launched. The UK government and House of Commons did renege a treaty bearing "the great seal of the realm" and approval of the Queen, it's no small matter.

 

.

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Hi from France

[JonnyF]

57 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

so your argument is that the internal market bill is just a bluff, like a big knife, and in fact reneging on a treaty had no impact because it's not effective yet?

 

Based on data, not just posts without arguments or tabloid-based, please How do you think this "knife in the pocket" strategy turned out, JonnyF?

 

 

I'm supposed you can comment on the fact that beside fishing and level playing field as a condition for accessing the EU market, there is now a third blocking point in negociations: what Barnier politely calls "governance". In other words, "how to enforce a deal when you know the other party just reneged on a previous treaty", in other words "how can you deal with a liar"? This is extremely complicated as arbitration mechanisms between states take years to take effect, so the UK would surely starting cheating even before the ink is dry. Trust is the foundation of treaties, and the UK lost the "my word is my bond" card.

 

 

 

 

In my books, there are very real consequences and this is effectively reneging on the treaty Boris just signed (and claimed it was a big victory for the UK).

 

I await your post, but to me, your argument is like saying the UK has nuclear missiles, but this is fact has absolutely no importance as long as they are not launched. The UK government and House of Commons did renege a treaty bearing "the great seal of the realm" and approval of the Queen, it's no small matter.

 

.

 

 

Your nuclear missile analogy is a good one.

 

It's a deterrent. The EU knows if they try to cut up the UK then the gloves come off.

 

When dealing with the EU you need this type of threat because they have become extremely hostile since we rejected them.

 

To use another analogy, It's better to have a knife and not need it, than to need a knife and not have it.

 

Of course, all this could be avoided if the EU grow up and sign a simple mutually beneficial trade deal. That would protect their massive trade surplus with the UK. Let's see if mature heads prevail.