The 1(1)th Commandment

[Maizefarmer]

I want to share with Farming in Thailand Forum members the following story - it is not strictly speaking a agricultural matter, but it a matter that crops up time and time again, it's almost always a "what should I do" type question, rasied by a new member specifically to this section of the Thai Visa forum.

Recently I have been in contact (through Private Messages) with a forum member who had struck up a relationship with a young Thai girl he met in the "bright lights" enviroment. He is married back home in his own country (I can see where comments in reply to this point are going to go - please don't, and if done I'd ask the Mod to deleate them immediatly), family, professional job, settled ect ect ect .....

Aged around 50, he had come out to Thailand to take a break alone - got the impression he may have been an off-shore worker or similar - but not certain of that, he didn;t say one way or the other - it was very much a first experiance for him in Thailand, and in relating to bar girl types - this is relivant. Read on.

As matters developed the forum member was invited by the young lady to visit the tribal lands (i.e. "lets head West Ti'raak - I'll show you the land of milk & honey") - and off the couple went to visit Ampur XYZ out in the middle of no-where.

On arrival, the family "ranch" was shown to the new "boyfriend" - consisting as I was told of a plot of land with potential - but lacking water. The course of conversation swung round to improvement of the land, and a well/borehole was suggested.

I received a message from this ex-pat, who having read the farming Forum Thread about Boreholes, thought he'd take a second opinion. He provided a brilliant description of his take of the project - he was not quite as green as the young lady thought he was, and couldn't understand the figures he was been given (red flag No 1).

What did I think?

I asked him 2 questions:

- how long have you known this young lady?

- if you were back home, would you be relating to or getting involved with a hooker in this way?

They were rhetorical questions as the answers were, without asking going to be "not long" and "no - I wouldn't".

So just why the hel_l do it here in Thailand? There is a great misunderstanding many ex-pat's have about Thai's - it's that intimate relationships for them are somehow different to the rest of the world , and that their perception of sincerity/right & wrong are are aslo somehow different. They are not - Thai's are humans and their concepts and values of about right/wrong/, honesty/dishonesty and relationships are no diffrent to ours i.e. if it doesn't figure to you, it doesn't figure to to them - simple. Yet for some reason I have never been able to understand, so many guys adopt a compleltly different approach to dealing with Thai females at theis level (compared to how they would handle the same matters back home).

I ended off one of my last notes to him by saying "I see red flags here".

Within literally a couple hours I got back a reply that started "red flags .....er?" (quote/uoquote). That same evening while out at a local place of entertainment, the young lady explained that she was just going to get some medicine for a friend from a local pharmacy - and would be back in a few minutes (Red Flag No 2).

A few minutes became an extended period of time and fed up with waiting, the guy went back to the hotel where they were staying. Yup - you guessed it - only to find the young lady had hotfooted back to Bkk with all the new clothes he had purchased for her, and a not inconsiderable sum of cash he had withdrawn from am ATM earlier in the day!

So whats my point?

Go back to the 2 rhetorical questions I wrote above. If it is not how you would conduct yourself back home (i.e. getting involved in land pruchase, buying livestock, building, boreholes, wells, ect ect ...) with a young lady you meet under "those" circumstances and have known for the amount of time that guys often know girls for here, before doing these things - then don't do it here in Thailand. The chances are overwhelmingly it will go south the moment you turn back. Think with your head - not your heart (or should that be middle leg) - keep your emotions out of it.

I hope this thread does not degenerate into a "only got himself to blame" kind of thread. It's mean't to be a constructive marker for all members who are thinking of going down a "I'll help you improve your lot in life" road. To start with anything ag related should be considered a no no, unless you are here 24/7 to moniter things. After all - if it was something your adopted family was serious about, do you really beleive they have hold off for x years just to await your arrival? Me thinks not. The poorest of hardworking honest Thai's will have a few livestock or a veggie/crop patch up and running long before you arrive on the scene (especially if it's the family home the young lady grew up in). Motivated Thai "farmers" do not put off such plans or intentions in the anticipation that mom & pop's little darling is going to find the family a well to do benefactor - no, if at all motivated and interested when you get there, you will find evidance of such work already been done by dad to contribute to the familys' well been (in which case, yes I can understand a well meaning gesture to add to that).

Think about it - would you be doing this for a young lady back home you met in bar and had known for the amount of time you know this one? If the answer is no - then why the hel_l do it here. Press Alt/Control/Deleate on Heart mode, and reboot while holding down F10 to get back into Head Setup mode. Now start the process again.

This thread could have been started and pLAced elswhere on the forum I guess - but I wanted to place it here, because it's this section of the forum guys who are thinking about land, farming. livestock and other ag related subjects go to and ask other members questions. If RDC wants to pin it to the top with a Warning label attached - fine, may be a good idea. If others want to add their comments, please do - but lets keep it ag/farming related and in taste please - otherwise, a subject which many could benefit from will quickly (and rightly so) be shut down.

And what became of the member in question? He didn't think in a month of Sundays with this life experiance (and that of committed relationships i.e. been married) he could be taking in by a young girl half his age. He conceeds he was a fool.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

... and the golden rule: only farm or get involved in agriculture in Thailand if that is what you want to do - there are a thousand other things to do here that can make a lot more money with a lot less work.

Good luck and successfull farming - time to hug my cows.

MF

[Khonwan]

Maizefarmer,

What a pity you you spoiled your treaty with your unnecessary judgement on bar-girl relationships. For this reason alone, I hope this post is not pinned! I for one find such judgements offensive.

I have been far happier with my ex-bar-girl wife of 13 years than ever I was with my non-bar-girl wife of 12 years back in farangland. And this is still agg-related because, without her extremely hard work on the farm, I could not crop our 200 rai, or have reared our livestock in the past.

Would I have entered a relationship with a "hooker" back in farangland? Had I met one whom I trusted and loved...yes, most certainly. Why not?? Perhaps I would have had a more happy 12 years there that would have lasted 25 years and not led me to come here.

Rgds

Khonwan

[thedi]

I fully agree with Maizfarmer, but would like to add two points.

1. If they can not start it themselves, they will not be able to keep it alife after you started it for them.
   
2. If you support one family, they have an unfair advantage over all the other families. This will derange the grown balance. For example, they may have more products to sell and because of your help they do not have to amortise investments; hence they can sell cheaper. In the end the provit may be in the hands of clever merchants and some of the not-supported families will be forced to sell cheaper too, for prices which may not cover their costs.
   

Do-gooding is one of the most difficult arts.

This does not mean you should not do it, but be careful, that you do something which will do more good than harm. My personal moto is:

• bring knowledge - but be prepared to find out, that your knowledge is of little value here,
  
• invest in experiments but do not produce or sponsore producers.
  

I also invest alot in my hobbies here in Thailand. In this way I employ villagers, this brings money into circulation here - so most of it ends to the local liquor shop. For my hobbies there is one fundamental rule: they should only cost - never bring a return.

Best regards

Thedi

[mosquitoman]

I want to share with Farming in Thailand Forum members the following story - it is not strictly speaking a agricultural matter,

MF

Correct I think this one should be moved to General Topics

MM

Edited May 6, 2007 by mosquitoman

[SAP]

Maize Farmer has touched on something very delicate and I think it is very relevant to this thread. As it relates to what I am doing with the rubber servicing project, the idea was born by seeing such falung come and go and loose their life savings.

Please do not get offended by the comments, because its not just bar girls that can rip people off, and there is many many examples of successful relationships with girls that have been meet in Bars.

My comment to this thread MF, is I see on regular basis a newbie with what I call M triple GGG S.......which is My girl's a good girl syndrome. (please don't get offended as I am not referring to everybody).......It can usually be seen in a newbie who has lived in Thailand for less than accumalated time of 12 months. The classic signs are Starry eyes when they are telling you how they met and really connected......how they met the family and they are cool....even mum and dad really loves them........From this point I always start to question so are you married, if yes how much was the dowry, how much do you send back to your GF when you are oversea's, how much was the car, motorbike, did you buy land , house already.....etc etc.

I am sorry, to some people I know that I am probably being really offensive, but you can be rest assured that 90% of the cases that I see like this end in total loss of money that has been handed over.

The question is, when some one is in love and has MGGGS, is it possible to enlighten them before they loose their life savings?? Because normally now I do not say anything, because I believe a man in love can be told nothing.

[Maizefarmer]

Maizefarmer,

What a pity you you spoiled your treaty with your unnecessary judgement on bar-girl relationships. For this reason alone, I hope this post is not pinned! I for one find such judgements offensive.

I have been far happier with my ex-bar-girl wife of 13 years than ever I was with my non-bar-girl wife of 12 years back in farangland. And this is still agg-related because, without her extremely hard work on the farm, I could not crop our 200 rai, or have reared our livestock in the past.

Would I have entered a relationship with a "hooker" back in farangland? Had I met one whom I trusted and loved...yes, most certainly. Why not?? Perhaps I would have had a more happy 12 years there that would have lasted 25 years and not led me to come here.

Rgds

Khonwan

Bang on - you make the point yourself i.e. "Had I met one whom I trusted and loved" - that love & trust you refer to has developed over 13 years - and as someone who was married before for 12 years, you will be accutely aware that that love and trust took time - it did not develope overnight. The bar girl referance was not judgemental - it is a real example that has happened in the last few days - it is these very types of relationships where carefull judgement should be exercised - that is a fact that has repeated it's self time and time again in Thailand - across the board.

You have read the argument as one in which I have tried to state bar - girls are bad. Not so - in fact your long marriage emphasizes the point that it is possible, but as you note yourself, it has been a 13 year journey to achieve what you have achieved. It was not something that hapened overnight. That was my point i.e. such decisions and committements are best made in the fullness of time - don't rush in.

MF

Edited May 6, 2007 by Maizefarmer

[mosquitoman]

The question is, when some one is in love and has MGGGS, is it possible to enlighten them before they loose their life savings?? Because normally now I do not say anything, because I believe a man in love can be told nothing.

I was always believed in giving advice to people on two occasions.

1 When it is reqested

2 When someones life is at risk

So in the case of some one being bled dry I would only give them advice if they asked me for it. Most people my self included do not welcome unsolicited advice.

MM

[btate]

I hesitate to post on this subject, but do feel I have something to add.

MF and SAP have excellent points of view as well as does Khonwan. I have lived full time here since 1999 and for 5 years prior to that I was partying in Patong every 8th or 9th weekend.

The numbers of occasions where the ‘little head’ out paced the big head of friends and acquaintances causing loss of savings, income etc. are too numerous to mention. Whether it was the ‘farm’, bar beer, beauty saloon or motor bike rentals the stories are remarkably similar.

When my current partner and I decided to get together it was with a great deal of discussion and setting of limits and goals. Yes, she has a checkered past, she is also an excellent chef. I also have a checkered past, after living and playing in Patong, Bangers and Udon, what single guy wouldn’t?

Expectations were established by both as to what we wanted out of life and how we should go about getting it.

I have a fair fixed income that we can live on quite comfortably anywhere in Thailand. The one rule about the income is I will not touch the principal that allows us that level of monthly income. No big cash outlays for land, car, houses etc., the one exception is major medical expense. The situation is such that as long as we can use the monthly income we can do what we want. Property has come up, since we both would like our own spot to establish ourselves. A lease is OK with me and saving for land is OK too.

We have only one major yearly expense, the tuition for a private school for her daughter. I believe this to be the best investment I can make in Thailand. Soon enough that will turn into college tuition hopefully.

These expectations were set in stone early on in our relationship. We are not a Winter and Spring relationship but rather a Fall, Summer one. Both of us know the value of trust and respect. There are now, nor were ever, any stars in our eyes, not to say that there is no emotional involvement, but we really like each other and have fun.

In over two years we’ve never raised our voices in disagreement, she doesn’t do the Thai soap opera thing and I don’t do the know-it-all falang thing.

Its all about knowing whom your dealing with, setting expectations and getting to know the real person. Not something you can do as an occasional visitor or from a long distance or in a week or month or two. At least that’s what I think.

To date I've not been asked for one satang from any of the family. They do quiet well for Thai farmers and are divirsified between rubber and fruit. They manage money well and there isn't one new pickup in the bunch.

Yep she is an X bar girl, so what. She was making money sending her daughter to school and I was pissing it away on the same exercise. Who is right and who is wrong. Takes a better man than me to tell the difference.

AND yes, if I were to meet her in my hometown I would be inclined the same way. Good people are hard to come by in any circumstance. Being married twice ( one great one horrible) I have a point of reference for myself.

Set expectations, be honest and live with respect for the other.

Rgds

Bt

EDIT: I forgot to mention that she is a 'born' farmer, loves getting her fingernails dirty as does her daughter. So yes, we are looking at agriculture opportunities. Besides I miss my summers on my uncle's farm chasing cows and throwing chickens.

Edited May 6, 2007 by btate

[Ijustwannateach]

Maizefarmer,

Your advice truly extends to many areas. I have the same advice about teaching- don't do it just to stay in/come to Thailand. If you try to do something you're not suited for, you'll just hate your whole life here and even the reason you came will seem bitter.

And when people are tempted to think with their pants, they should remember: the Thais were here before them, they will be here after them. It is always wise to ask oneself the question: what would this person be doing to solve his/her problems if I wasn't here? Very few Thais have survived all their lives based on direct foreign subsidy.

"s"

[Maizefarmer]

Well, well ... however written up it was a foregone conclusion the subject was going to generate controversy.

Some will say it was offensive and stereotypical(?). That of course is easily said - and is also a very selective response - because those are the same guys who will say, "I have been married x number of years ect ect .....".

Hang on a sec guys - that is just my point: not that it can't work or does not work - but note the qualification used to support those replies. It's the part that refers to love & trust, to which is added something like "have been married x number of years".

Speak's for it's self - and is very different to the impulsiveness I was referring to which ends in tears and recriminations of faked affection, abuse of generosity and similar feelings.

In all fairness it could happen with any thai girl - granted, immaterial of her background. Citing the profile I did was for no other reason than I think it's indisputable this scenario is the profile where most tears are shed, and statements along the lines of "20/20 hindsight" are made (as uncomfortable as some may find that).

In summary - read what I wrote in it's correct context. I do not belive it's judgemental or stereotypical (although if you read the paragraph above it's a fine line argument between stereotyping and using an example that was both true and very representative - it's subjective: one can choose to view it from either side of the fence). Is it offensive. No, it's an uncomfortable reality that repeats it's self time and time again in rural Thailand.

MF

Edited May 6, 2007 by Maizefarmer

[Khonwan]

Maizefarmer,

What a pity you you spoiled your treaty with your unnecessary judgement on bar-girl relationships. For this reason alone, I hope this post is not pinned! I for one find such judgements offensive.

I have been far happier with my ex-bar-girl wife of 13 years than ever I was with my non-bar-girl wife of 12 years back in farangland. And this is still agg-related because, without her extremely hard work on the farm, I could not crop our 200 rai, or have reared our livestock in the past.

Would I have entered a relationship with a "hooker" back in farangland? Had I met one whom I trusted and loved...yes, most certainly. Why not?? Perhaps I would have had a more happy 12 years there that would have lasted 25 years and not led me to come here.

Rgds

Khonwan

Bang on - you make the point yourself i.e. "Had I met one whom I trusted and loved" - that love & trust you refer to has developed over 13 years - and as someone who was married before for 12 years, you will be accutely aware that that love and trust took time - it did not develope overnight. The bar girl referance was not judgemental - it is a real example that has happened in the last few days - it is these very types of relationships where carefull judgement should be exercised - that is a fact that has repeated it's self time and time again in Thailand - across the board.

You have read the argument as one in which I have tried to state bar - girls are bad. Not so - in fact your long marriage emphasizes the point that it is possible, but as you note yourself, it has been a 13 year journey to achieve what you have achieved. It was not something that hapened overnight. That was my point i.e. such decisions and committements are best made in the fullness of time - don't rush in.

MF

Wrong again, Maizefarmer. Perhaps you should stick to offering farming advice rather than playing the socioligist.

You have reached the conclusion, without a shred of evidence, that it took me 13 years to build up trust. What utter nonsense. I purchased my first 10 rai and built a large house for us 2 years into our relationship. I for one am not the sort of person to have done such a thing without being fully satisfied that our relationship was built on a solid foundation.

Oh that you had given your words some deeper thought. My farang wife of 12 years did not die, yet you assume that our love and trust developed over those 12 years. Why then am I here? Your conclusion is plainly not valid or I would still be with her.

"Had I met..." was purely hypothetical since I never sought this experience in farangland.

"You have read the argument...": I have chose to select this part of your argument since it was completely unnecessary (you could quite a easily, and more correctly, stated the dangers of entering into a(n economic) relationship with any new found friend/partner) but you chose to be provokative. Your advice was unsolicited and unwanted.

You speak of trust requiring a number of years (I wonder, does two years satisfy you?) yet you do not mention that that trust (built up over years) can easily be shattered. Did you yourself not shatter your partner's trust when you had your affair or one-night stand? (I refer to your own public post in another forum quite some time ago). Trust is something that does not usually occur overnight, but it is something that can be destroyed in a few minutes. Perhaps then you should have included a paragraph of warning to your intended readership of the dangers of losing their farms should they too break the trust of their partner.

Not all of us who ended up in Thailand were blessed with the advantages of having a father and grandfather who taught in Chulalongkorn and had the opportunity to meet a marriageable vet. I have 10 years of knowledge of a great many farangs here in Thailand (through my previous business, which was 100% Thai-resident-farang-client based) - I would say that something like 80-90% of their partners (where they were Thai) were ex-bar-girls.

I would not have bothered so much had such a stereotypical view (yes, said...and still true for saying it) appeared in another forum such as "General" or perhaps "Jokes..." but it sullies this most useful Farming Forum, which should be restricted to agg issues.

By your own admission, you knew that raising this issue would be divisive - why divide this readership over a non-agg issue???

No Agony Aunt required on this Farming Forum please.

[brahmburgers]

I've been residing here nearly 10 years and, though I thought I was getting more savvy, I've been doing some things lately that are stupider than my earlier years.

Case in point: I met an untethered cutie at Big C, fell for her innocense, agreed to loan her dad Bt.10,000 (to help him get out of debt) - in exchange, the cutie promised me up and down that she would move in with me. We'd only seen each other a few times. After giving the money, she was totally gone, pow!, gonzo. I felt like the dumbest donut. I neglected to get a photocopy of her ID card - though little good it would have done.

As for Maizefarmer's story: I see all types of farang/bar girl couples up close - during the course of my real estate biz. Some chicks look lively and relatively fresh and some are dead-eyed (been around the block a thousand times). Farang shouldn't get too driven by the "wow, a pretty young girl says she loves me!" syndrome. Guys should shop around for the best they can get.

Sounds strange for a dummy like me to be giving advice - but other than the rip-off girl mentioned above, my other Thai girlfriends have been winners. The reason we don't stay together long term is I'm kee neeo (a cheap-skate) and am not marriage material.

[btate]

Controversy?

I don't think so, it seems we are all "Preaching to the Choir" in the singular respect of think before you act.

Sadly, the stereo-typical viewpoint that all bar-girls are bad is prevelant throughtout falangville. Without regard to how or why, the jokes and snide remarks continue by the unknowing. Yes, there are surely 'bad' girls and not only in the bars. What percentage of the ladies working at Central or The Emporium have an 'eye' out for a falang that will provide them security? Please don't be naive about the well dressed fully made up service person that is so helpful in your purchases.

A recent article spoke about the percentage of GNP (10%) generated by agriculture, being way out of whack with the percentage of the population (60%) directly or indirectly involved in the sector. Odds are that ANY Thai woman you meet is connected to the Ag. industry. The most secure feeling they can have is a 'plot' and a home.

It becomes natural for the woman to return to her roots and either try and help the family survive or to establish a solid base for her own old age. The starry eyed falang is only too eager to help.

Investing in Ag. industry via land, animals etc. etc. is an expensive proposition. Much more so than some of the other 'ideas' to generate income. Without a good working knowledge it is disastrous for most. The idea of setting up a farm and letting the family and friends run it, work it, without direct involvement is ludicrous. Similar to running a good restaurant or bar, if the owner isn't on the premises when the doors are open, the doors will be closed shortly. If expectations are not set properly it is all bound to end in tears.

Having spent several summers hauling milk pails, feeding calves, cutting and baling hay and chopping corn silage I have had some exposure to the cow industry. Would I go out and start a dairy farm? No way, as I really don't have the background in animal husbandry that is required. I would surely blow any investment I made. Again, the starry eye falang that has had minimal exposure to farming might just do so.

Would I consider a veggie based situation? Yes, I like plants and have grown my own veggies for years, not in this climate, but there is an amount of knowledge that is transferrable. The investment in an income producing crop farm is not as intensive as dealing with animals (cows, pigs, buffalo, chickens etc.). THe total amount of risk is also less if things go stupid on me.

How many times on this thread have you seen something approximating the following: "... my Thai wife/GF... land and what is the best crop/product ..... " or " ... my Thai wife/GF family wants to buy (animals)..... " or "...how much do buffalo/cows/sheep.... cost?". Without out a clue, these folks are getting into the Ag. business, for one reason or another. MF and Khonwan, along with others, have more often than not given astute advice by asking the questions that expose a total lack of basic knowledge by the poster. Hopefully they take the hint.

MF, your actual scenario points out the worst case and should be considered by all.

Khonwan, your experience is the best case and should be considered by all.

Neither is wrong and both have been here many years and have the benefit of observing in person the varieties of situations that arise around this subject. Their viewpoints should be taken as local knowledge.

I can personally specify two situations I'm currently aware of right within my neighborhood, one will end in tears and lawyers etc. the other I expect to be stable and loving until one of them dies.

A controversial issue, no, but surely a sensitive one.

Rgds

Bt

[Maizefarmer]

Khonwan

What on earth does citing my personal experience with “playing away from home” have to do with this subject?

Out of the thousand odd posts I have made on this forum you’ll forgive me thinking you’ve gone back to read them all just to make a personal issue - of something that has nothing to do with this subject. And, reiterating the circumstances of my background connection to Thailand also has nothing to do with the thread subject. Why did you feel you needed to raise that?

You are reading this as a personal thing, and what I wrote as a kind of disguised response to what you wrote. Again, you take it out of context - quoting the “13yrs” time span you gave in your previous posting was not a reply to you personally, or a dig at what you wrote. I made clear what the point was (i.e. time), and what I saw as the "qualification" (for lack of a better word ) that went with that.

When you quantify the time span and ask me if 2 years is enough – is that rhetorical, or are you responding personally (i.e. implying that I would think 2 years is not enough time), or are you asking me what I think is a reasonable time? You put me on the spot – if I say 2yrs, I open myself to someone coming back and asking, well what about 18months, then what about 12 months … and on it will go….. That is each individual to judge for themselves (I were to answer for myself – yes, that seems more than reasonable time).

You are contrasting your experience with the scenario I have raised to start the thread. It’s a chalk & cheese comparison you make – your experience is no way similar to the scenario I used to start the thread. If anything, your experiance is the antithesis of what I was writing about. No similarity at all. None.

You may feel this thread was unsolicited – others have offered some constructive replies – to both sides of the argument – and have been able to do so quite constructively and without feeling the need to reduce it to a personal level.

Please go back and read what I wrote – I was not making a personal issue of what you said – I was using what you wrote to make a contrast - to say a lot of heartache and tears can often be avoided if guys who make decisions so quickly had only given more time to the personal side of things before making an “economic” commitment.

I stand by what I said i.e. get a good feel for the lay of the land and think with your head dohe emotions of the moment cloud the judgement, before rushing into economic committments you may stand to regret later. Perfectly reasonable and just plain common sense.

I see much the same sentiment has been expressed by some members on the Growing Jasmine thread.

MF

[Khonwan]

Maizefarmer,

You have a propensity to jump to the wrong conclusion. No, I did not dig through your old posts as a result of this post.

I have, in fact, read most if not all of your posts whilst you were in hospital in the USA. Why? Because I have the deepest respect for your farming experiences and achievements. This respect does not, however, extend to matters of sociology. Nor have I reviewed your old posts since then, in order to use them today - they simply form a part of my understanding of who you are.

Your first response was clearly in reply to me, and by quoting me directly you open yourself up to further response from me. I understand that your treatise (only partly) on the dangers of making rash judgements after quick liaisons with bar girls was not intended to be a personal attack on me (whom you do not know) or other readers. I do, however, take exception to the view that bar girls should be single out for your judgement (and judged you certainly did).

Now that I have made this thread personal for you, perhaps you will understand how personal I take it also.

A business or domestic relationship with anyone should be undertaken slowly and with due diligence. This applies to non-bar partners and ex-bar partners alike.

You expected your post to be provocative - why complain when you are proved correct? (rhetorical question, BTW). Discussion of the subject on bar girls is normally frowned upon in Thaivisa.com for the very reason that it does normally degenerate.

I really do also believe that if you feel it necessary to warn folks not to follow their libido rather than their head, in the case of entering a(n economic) relationship then why not also advise them of the pitfalls of destroying that relationship at a later date by similarly following their libido rather than their head.

Personally, I'd rather that Btate had been allowed to have the last word on this and that we could get back to farming, at least on this forum.

[SAP]

What did I think?

I asked him 2 questions:

- how long have you known this young lady?

- if you were back home, would you be relating to or getting involved with a hooker in this way?

I re-read MF's first post, and again I .have to agree with him, and although I would guess the 2nd question was most likely came out more politically correct than it was when written down here. But it was enough to sow seeds of doubt for the guy to ask some more questions than just continue walking blindly.

Khonwan, I do not believe you have been lucky......but you are probably have a great ability to judge character, and most likely are a true gentleman to your GF.

I lived here for 3-4 years had my first Thai Love, and the entire time I just knew in the back of my mind if I invested way back at the start it was money down the gurgler. But that was my personal relationship and different to yours.

I believe this is all still relavant to Ag forum as it really referring to agri-business and decision making to done before investing money.

I like this Ag forum as they are very very few personal attacks on people...Lets all try and keep it that way.

[Khonwan]

What did I think?

I asked him 2 questions:

- how long have you known this young lady?

- if you were back home, would you be relating to or getting involved with a hooker in this way?

I re-read MF's first post, and again I .have to agree with him, and although I would guess the 2nd question was most likely came out more politically correct than it was when written down here. But it was enough to sow seeds of doubt for the guy to ask some more questions than just continue walking blindly.

Khonwan, I do not believe you have been lucky......but you are probably have a great ability to judge character, and most likely are a true gentleman to your GF.

I lived here for 3-4 years had my first Thai Love, and the entire time I just knew in the back of my mind if I invested way back at the start it was money down the gurgler. But that was my personal relationship and different to yours.

I believe this is all still relavant to Ag forum as it really referring to agri-business and decision making to done before investing money.

I like this Ag forum as they are very very few personal attacks on people...Lets all try and keep it that way.

Yes, lets keep attacks out of this - personal attacks and attacks on groups of people who may require someone to stand up for them. Be sensitive to other points of view and resist bringing them up in such a public forum that is sure to reflect all points of view. You may well think this is ag-related but I'm sure you would agree that there are many other ag-related topics we can discuss that need not stretch the meaning of ag-related.

Rgds

Khonwan

[Maizefarmer]

Khonwan

I made that farming forum point clear right at the start. I'll repeat why I felt it had some relivance here: some members/ alot of members (especialy new members) focus in on a sub section of the forum that is related to their interest - and if it's ag related this is the forum section they will gravitate to with questions before reading other sections. Thats who it was aimed at - so I belive it has a role to play here.

But back to your points:

1) "You have a propensity to jump to the wrong conclusion. No, I did not dig through your old posts as a result of this post"

Nope Khonwan - I said it looked like that - it was not a conclusion - you have a better memory than me because I sure as hel_l don't remember point by point my old postings. Still, those points had zip nothing to do with the subject and I can't understand why you raised them - but leave it as it is, point closed - has nothing to do with what this subject.

Thanx for the comment re farming (no sarcasm intended)

2) "Your first response was clearly in reply to me, and by quoting me directly you open yourself up to further response from me"

It was not Khonwan - I told you that and couldn't explain it any clearer - if you want to see it otherwise, well - what can I say.

4) "I do, however, take exception to the view that bar girls should be single out for your judgement (and judged you certainly did)".

There are a number of ways I could have put it. Of course its easy to say it was judgemental. I could have said, or put it like this: - read Thaivisa ([other sub-sections[/i]) - ample evidence to support what I said. I could also have put it like this: like gambling in a casino, there will always be exceptions, but for every one exception there will be a load of guys who kick themselves afterwards for not having been a little more circumspect. One can put it whatever they want - it's the same and it's a fact (many times an uncomfortable fact). Nothing wrong in raising this as a potential risk for new comers to this part of the forum. And I'm going to addd something to that - most guys recognise when they made that mistake and kick themselves afterwards (you only have to read other sub-forums to see that - fact, loads of examples), but there are some who do it again and again. And yes - it overwhelmingly occurs in ex-pat/bar girl relationships - because that is the cross-cultural profile in which the libido/sex element comes into play versus the time element - that is a fact Khonwan. Remember - what I said about the part of it "time". Take the "short time" out of the equation - think about it: it starts to look very different (i.e. libido doesn't wait!).

I stand behind what I said - it's a bang on accurate statement - if read in it's proper context.

5) "You expected your post to be provocative - why complain when you are proved correct?"

Nope - it was not mean't to provoke - I said I expected it to be controversial. (quote/unquote). I suspected that someone would personalise the subject at some or other level, at which point, yes - it becomes provocative - I did not want that happening.

6) "why not also advise them of the pitfalls of destroying that relationship at a later date by similarly following their libido rather than their head".

What Khonwan! - the whole point was watch your libido - libido's an influential thing - good idea to keep an eye on it. And if ever there are a set of circumstances in which one should seperate libido from economic decisions and committments - Thailand has to rank high. Keep it out of making those big desicions untill you have a good understanding of whats going on. I thought that was clear - makes sense doesn't it - again, you only have to look elswhere on the forum to see it comes up time and time again - endless examples

Why should it end off with what btate said. If there were more replies like his, it would be good. He to didn't agree with some of what I said. He raised some valid points. I disagreed with him on some points: I don't feel what I raised was an exception. Rather, your experiance and my experiance are very much exceptions.

MF

[Khonwan]

Maizefarmer

Well, I think we have played this to death now so I offer my hand in peace.

Take the bar-girl / hooker references out (replace it with "girlfriend") and I'll support your treatise 100%, and support it being pinned.

Pax

Khonwan

[Maizefarmer]

Nope, it's an accurate statement, well explained and qualifed where need be. You've made it very clear what you didn't like, but that was very much a comparison with your experiance - which was not what I was writing about and doesn't tell me what was wrong with what I wrote.

I wrote it up because it was an actual incident that a new forum member had shared with me and represented well something that happens so much in Thailand. (I had his permission to write it up - actualy he asked me to add 2 things: a) he had been communticating with the girl for about 6 months, and, secondly, when she hotted footed it, she did not take other valuables he had left in his room e.g. camera and computer - just the cash. One can read that as one wishes - I am not drawing any conclusion from it - postiive or negative.).

As for pinning this - I really couldn't care one way or the other. The thread can die a natural death - I have no personal attachment to this as a subject.

[pnustedt]

So whats my point?

Go back to the 2 rhetorical questions I wrote above. If it is not how you would conduct yourself back home (i.e. getting involved in land pruchase, buying livestock, building, boreholes, wells, ect ect ...) with a young lady you meet under "those" circumstances and have known for the amount of time that guys often know girls for here, before doing these things - then don't do it here in Thailand. The chances are overwhelmingly it will go south the moment you turn back. Think with your head - not your heart (or should that be middle leg) - keep your emotions out of it.

In my opinion you are wrong MF. In my personal circumstances I got involved with substantial investment with my (then) g/f's family at an early stage of our relationship. The main motive for doing so was to give the family an opportunity to earn a living for themselves instead of relying on hand-outs from her (or us). I would not do such a thing in my "home" country as there is a social security system.

The relationship appears to be standing the test of time, we have been together for 12 years and the family(s) are able to support themselves, and to some extent, provide an income to my wife and I.

This is far from a unique situation - many of my friends are in similar circumstances, in my experience the success rate of such relationships appears to be higher than those in my home country (UK).

[Jai Dee]

Topic moved to General Forum.

Please keep the replies to this thread sensible and mature.

/Moved.

[a2396]

Maize Farmer has touched on something very delicate and I think it is very relevant to this thread. As it relates to what I am doing with the rubber servicing project, the idea was born by seeing such falung come and go and loose their life savings.

Please do not get offended by the comments, because its not just bar girls that can rip people off, and there is many many examples of successful relationships with girls that have been meet in Bars.

My comment to this thread MF, is I see on regular basis a newbie with what I call M triple GGG S.......which is My girl's a good girl syndrome. (please don't get offended as I am not referring to everybody).......It can usually be seen in a newbie who has lived in Thailand for less than accumalated time of 12 months. The classic signs are Starry eyes when they are telling you how they met and really connected......how they met the family and they are cool....even mum and dad really loves them........From this point I always start to question so are you married, if yes how much was the dowry, how much do you send back to your GF when you are oversea's, how much was the car, motorbike, did you buy land , house already.....etc etc.

I am sorry, to some people I know that I am probably being really offensive, but you can be rest assured that 90% of the cases that I see like this end in total loss of money that has been handed over.

The question is, when some one is in love and has MGGGS, is it possible to enlighten them before they loose their life savings?? Because normally now I do not say anything, because I believe a man in love can be told nothing.

I would not get involved or put money into any business venture in a foreign land, unless you are a multinational corporation. Personal relationships are enough of a minefield here, let alone adding extra vulnerability to loss, with business propositions involving your darling of the moment and/or her family. It is pretty standard practice for a Farang to be approached with requests to put up money to start the lady in question with some sort of money making enterprise. Such has been requested of me on several occasions. My reccomendation is to give a reasonable monthly assistance to the GF and possibly her Mother/Father. No purchase of real estate, cars, etc that will be registered in her name. Determine that she has no other romantic involvements, which is hard enough to do in you are living in LOS & impossible if you are overseas and she is in Thailand. No legal marriage & small dowery, if you really have to.

[Maigo6]

Please keep the replies to this thread sensible and mature.

C'mon JD, you know better than that!

[farmerdave]

In my opinion you are wrong MF. In my personal circumstances I got involved with substantial investment with my (then) g/f's family at an early stage of our relationship. The main motive for doing so was to give the family an opportunity to earn a living for themselves instead of relying on hand-outs from her (or us). I would not do such a thing in my "home" country as there is a social security system.

OK it was me, hands up !

All started with a PM to Maizefarmer asking if 20K to dig a pond was a fair price (depending on size I know) I was a bit reluctant to post on here because in the circumstances I did not want pages of 1 liner cracks with Beer glass holding, laughing emotions. As it happens its turned into a lengthy mature discussion, so I'll add my bit, prompted moreso by the above post quoted here.

Came to LOS in October last yr, never went looking for entertainment other than a drink with a couple of friends. Met the girl in question, yes she came with me and so impressed by her kind seemingly genuine love & affection that she stayed the week. SMS/ telephone every day between then & January trip, again stayed the whole 2 weeks. Announced of her own volition that she wasnt suited to the job and was heading back to Isaan when i went home. From a farming life myself I was delighted and offered to go with her to see where/how she lived, she also over the moon. Must add that at this stage there was no request for regular support either, her choice to go because she wanted to. Had a very good 3 days with her and during this time, went to look at a piece of land she knew was for sale (40k, about 3 Rai). looked and told her it was cheap, but very dry. Long discussion over it and finally gave in saying it was 40K to help the family sustain itself or a small bit of help on a regular basis. "Darling I like land". Good, I thought, better to give 40k now than subsidise a lazy life for ever. No problem. Txt/tel everyday (hands up to sending some money as well over the next few months).

Met at BKK, 2 nights there, OK, off to Hua Hin where we met, things got a bit strained at times, still as loving etc though. At this point I would like to add that she knew of my home circumstances from Day 1, never seemed a problem. When she asked me when i come next time, I told her I bring Family in July (they want to see the house in HH). Oh dear ! big upset, tears the lot (understandable probably). Anyway, got over it, said sorry etc and things returned to an even keel. What a cheating B******d i hear some of you say, well yes, & I'm not proud. Things not great at home, but I love my kids and selfishly have worked my nuts off for the last 5 years building up a rental portfolio of 16 houses, and although I would love to come to Isaan, live with her and us both have a comfortable life, I'm not going to make a step like that without getting to know he better. (not completely led by my middle leg)

Because I know the land is dry, i talked to her about a borehole (hence contacting MF) no good she says, too many trees for windmil, better to dig a pond.....20K she reckoned. Then she could grow different things, sell them at the market or wherever and help maintain the family (sustainability again as in the quoted text above). I give hr the 20k to send home as father said the digger could come next few days, take advantage of the rain. Same night, we go to eat, then go to the bar for a drink. Leaves me to nip off to 7/11 (back in 10 she said) Never given me any reason to mistrust her....ever .. 40 mins later, no sign, so pissed off i go back to hotel to find her gone with the 20k and all the new clothes/mobile phone i bought for her the day before.

Phoned her immediately to find she was on a bus to BKK. Going to work she said, tried to get her to come back & talk about it, but no way. N ext call i get tells me going home & will come with me to CM on monday......... slightly relieved now..... then get a call next day saying she in Pattaya, "you love family, you not love me, I not like darling, very sorry darling" That was it, either changed her SIM or lost the phone, more likely the first i think.

I still think the world of her (yes I know what you think), but if she was looking to rip me off completely she could have cleared the room, it was all there for the taking, but she only took what I had given her incluing the 20k. Not sure if it will dig a pond or start a new career in Pattaya if thats where she went. She genuinly loved the land and family life, so i just hope she returns to it. - maybe already has & didn't want me heading for Buri Ram.

No need for any "serves you right cracks" I know it does ! Just wanted everyone to know the full story......

[Etrigan]

Hang on a second!

What where the questions again?

Recap - Would a settled married man <deleted> about with a hooker then fall for her in his own country?

No he wouldn't because his balls aren't big enough to end his marriage so he has to run to the other side of the world just to cheat! What a pussy!

Well, here's another question, what do this guy's wife and kids back home think about this?

'Nuff said!

[Maigo6]

As you say FarmerDave, she never took anything you did not willingly give her, and as you could not give her the long term security that she craves, she will go to Pattaya to seek another man who can.

If you really do think the world of her, let her go to find the long term security that you as a married man cannot give her.

Wish her luck.

Edited May 8, 2007 by Maigo6

[Maizefarmer]

So whats my point?

Go back to the 2 rhetorical questions I wrote above. If it is not how you would conduct yourself back home (i.e. getting involved in land pruchase, buying livestock, building, boreholes, wells, ect ect ...) with a young lady you meet under "those" circumstances and have known for the amount of time that guys often know girls for here, before doing these things - then don't do it here in Thailand. The chances are overwhelmingly it will go south the moment you turn back. Think with your head - not your heart (or should that be middle leg) - keep your emotions out of it.

In my opinion you are wrong MF. In my personal circumstances I got involved with substantial investment with my (then) g/f's family at an early stage of our relationship. The main motive for doing so was to give the family an opportunity to earn a living for themselves instead of relying on hand-outs from her (or us). I would not do such a thing in my "home" country as there is a social security system.

The relationship appears to be standing the test of time, we have been together for 12 years and the family(s) are able to support themselves, and to some extent, provide an income to my wife and I.

This is far from a unique situation - many of my friends are in similar circumstances, in my experience the success rate of such relationships appears to be higher than those in my home country (UK).

Thats a fair comment - and if you had also included something else I wrote on the subject, you'll see the above quote correctly: yes, there are examples where it's worked good right from the start, no doubt about it - but for every one success there are a load that didn't and the odds are the quicker you make a financial committment, the bigger the chances are it could sour. Clear relationship between time given and outcome - but yes, there are excepitions and I acknowledged that.

MF

[GuestHouse]

I wouldn't go knocking this idea of buying live stock for Thais out of hand.

I personally know of one expat, who finding himself in a relationship with a Thai woman who at the same time was playing her bets with another guy (her Thai boss), decided to end the relationship.

He broke off with the girl just as he departed overseas but made one last visit to her family home, to pay his respects and treat her father to a buffalo calf, resplendent with a name tag 'Lucky'.

He explained 'Lucky' as 'Chok Dee' and laced that with all the 'Chok Dee' of having met, 'Chok Dee' at 'Lucky' finding such a happy home etc

He departed the village to the sound of all the family’s and neighbors children calling the water buffalo 'Aye Lucky'.

'Lucky' coincidentaly was the name of the alternative suitor his ex had been playing him against.

[Maizefarmer]

I wouldn't go knocking this idea of buying live stock for Thais out of hand.

I personally know of one expat, who finding himself in a relationship with a Thai woman who at the same time was playing her bets with another guy (her Thai boss), decided to end the relationship.

He broke off with the girl just as he departed overseas but made one last visit to her family home, to pay his respects and treat her father to a buffalo calf, resplendent with a name tag 'Lucky'.

He explained 'Lucky' as 'Chok Dee' and laced that with all the 'Chok Dee' of having met, 'Chok Dee' at 'Lucky' finding such a happy home etc

He departed the village to the sound of all the family’s and neighbors children calling the water buffalo 'Aye Lucky'.

'Lucky' coincidentaly was the name of the alternative suitor his ex had been playing him against.

Brilliant ......!