2 hours ago, Natai Beach said:

I have had built a lot in Thailand, the trick is be a hothead and yell if they are not doing “best practice”

I'm surprised that has worked for you.  Thai culture frowns on hotheads and that is usually not the best way to get results.

3 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

I'm surprised that has worked for you.  Thai culture frowns on hotheads and that is usually not the best way to get results.

100% agree in nearly every other situation, but construction they respect it and take the <deleted> if you don’t. 

12 hours ago, bodga said:

I didnt sign anything thats their signature Ill have to ask the wife if  she signed it or  not

If it is the same as the one you posted, she hasn’t signed it.

3 hours ago, Natai Beach said:

Find out how much they paid for the piles, work out how much they paid for the workers, give them that amount and tell them to f...off. 

already done theyve  had 75k Im doing it  myself  now with 4  burmese  workers.  I  will also be pointing out the <deleted> quality including cold joints  in the concrete lack of  pile depth with photos  of the <deleted> work

1 hour ago, bankruatsteve said:

I'm surprised that has worked for you.  Thai culture frowns on hotheads and that is usually not the best way to get results.

The uusal result with shouting is they run away

4 hours ago, Natai Beach said:

The price is slightly high for a professional job but not that much considering the angle etc. 

do you think thats  high JUST for the BEAM  only? I  think its ridiculous. 25cm2  beam 4 x10mm rebar  with stirrups 38 metres  long. 

2 minutes ago, bodga said:

The uusal result with shouting is they run away

In my post I did mention you came in like a hard cant hothead first, get them fired up, then buy them drinks and snacks later to diffuse them. The diffuse part is just as important. Aggro and demanding for the job standard but caring about them. 
 

The advice came from a 65 year old Thai head builder with hundreds of jobs under his belt. He advised me to do it that way. He said don’t be their friend. He said “you need to do it that way”. We had a lot of laughs as he “trained” me in the art. 

 

Building families are mostly loso, often hard drinkers that aren’t adverse to sneaking in a few Loakao shots during the day disguised in their M150 bottles. They need to be lead. They are not working a construction job because they were proactive, responsible and good at school, they are generally the type who will do it the easy way if you let them, not the best way. They use bad language. They are rough.

 

The best team I have ever had were hard core Kratom users, they never stop, go hard. Munching on the leaves all day. They were also fisherman for 3 months every year. Hard men. fit as f...

Another thing I do is film them working a lot. Comes in handy when the workers lie to the subcontractors. And they are more likely to do it the right way if you are filming them. 
 

In banks, offices etc I use a totally different approach, using extremely polite Thai which “forces“ them to use it back and get better, polite service even if they don’t like me or I am pushing them to do something they don’t want to do.

I always use their names and with a polite pronoun for added pressure.
 

A lot of farangs moan about the “face” thing. Learn how it works and use it to your advantage. As farang we have it over them because we don’t care, and they think we don’t know, so can get away with more than another Thai can. 
 

Horses for courses. If you are soft on construction workers you will end up with a substandard job like you have, that is hard to fix. 
 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Natai Beach said:

Another big mistake you did was only get one quote. Get two or three it will ALWAYS be cheaper.

Theres  a long story behind the one quote, this  year has been pretty grim for me and my Wife, I  normally  do all the hard  work here ( and I mean physically  not  just letting them do it) with 1-2 staff, I should  have been in the UK in JUne but due to Covid flight cancelled, when I  moved here for 4-5  years there was  almost no rain, a  Thai friend told me Prachuap is very dry, so I did that sloping concrete myself 5  years  ago and although it was  steep I took a chance being as it almost never rained here and hence the reason for an 8 metre  deep  pond to irrigate the land. Then last year the weather changed a lot from bone dry for year to very wet Hua  Hin  had water turned  off daily if memory serves me it was that dry, then this year even wetter. Id  been working on this land for about 7 years, its hard work doing it mostly by myself. I am tired of it and then the concrete slid into the pond, this was  just about the end  for me Id  had enough but more was to come. My Mother who is 92 and I see yearly then fell at  home and broke her  hip she lives  alone, crawled to the phone ( she lives in rural Wales) and got an ambulance after 3  hour wait....I could get back to see her BUT if  i did I could  not get back into Thailand I had to choose between My Mother or My Wife and leaving this  land  with staff who had  just run away beacsue my Wife complained they were having 3-4  hours for  lunch.

I spoke with my Mother  daily via  skype in hospital and she agreed for me to stay here, but I felt terrible about it .

Over the last 7 years the staff situation has gotten really bad,  but now the work is almost done  they dont have to do any hard  work its very easy, miles of pipes water every tree on sprinklers...but still finding staff is  hard and Im done with the graft.

 AT 57 Im finding it hard in 36c + and often 40c heat.

For this and a  few other reasons i told my Wife to find a company and just get it done, I want the place finished ive had enough after all this  time.

I thought the price was  high  but I wanted to be  finished done and dusted and at 193k It was  just about acceptable  including the sloped concrete, which I know exactly how  long it takes to do as Id  done it  all before 5 years  ago.......Its been  a sheeite  year  all round, there are other things also, just too many problems, am selling up and getting a condo by the sea without a care.

13 minutes ago, bodga said:

do you think thats  high JUST for the BEAM  only? I  think its ridiculous. 25cm2  beam 4 x10mm rebar  with stirrups 38 metres  long. 

From memory I was thinking it should be about 2,700 each for a professional job with a pile driver, but considering the angle and access I honestly don’t know how much extra charge would be reasonable.

11 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

From memory I was thinking it should be about 2,700 each for a professional job with a pile driver, but considering the angle and access I honestly don’t know how much extra charge would be reasonable.

They said 4700 (but thats wanst per  pile) and at that price  it should  have included the sloping concrete, the 2metre  piles are barely 80cm in places, longest one is about 1.5  metre.

The price they quoted was based on a per metre  price, they calculated 38metres  length x 4700 per  metre which is why we  assumed (  yes I  know) this included the sloped concrete, It was never a price per  pile because  they only  used 20 piles so they  said 38 metres x 4700 metre = 173,900 + delivery of  pile driver equipment at 15k....which they never  brought.

13 hours ago, Natai Beach said:

If it is the same as the one you posted, she hasn’t signed it.

Wife confirms she NEVER signed their contract so that's  game over for them. He  also sent us this  picture of  how it was  going to  look which is misleading and  charged by "per  metre" which isnt  how  it's  done its done normally by PER  PILE charged for 38 metres but USED 20 piles, ignore the red  line  I stuck  that in for my Wife

Can anyone  tell me in this  photo they show the piles  with about 50cm already above  soil  level but later they then hacked the head s  off ie removed this 50cm to soil  level, exposed the steel  inside to tie  into the beam metal work (not  welded on) or  tied  in

Surely you would  leave the exposed  top and just  pour the beam around the piles without  cutting them back for more strength. Please  note when I say CUT  I mean smashed with a hammer .

Bear in mind if they left 50cm out of the soil this means only 50cm was actually IN the soil as they cut the 2  metre  piles in half anyway.

heres  the Pile un neatly  cut showing how  much is  out  of the soil to  join the beam to..........nothing,and the remains of the "neatly cut"  piles which are  scattered  everywhere ie 1  metre  piles as already cut  in half using MY 9  inch angle grinder with 50cm  cut  off

4 hours ago, bodga said:

heres  the Pile un neatly  cut showing how  much is  out  of the soil to  join the beam to..........nothing,and the remains of the "neatly cut"  piles which are  scattered  everywhere ie 1  metre  piles as already cut  in half using MY 9  inch angle grinder with 50cm  cut  off

Have to assume their intention was to connect all the piles together using the rebar , create a cage with similar rebar the full length , make the forms then pour the beam .

Tied in rebar to rebar is the strongest method.

Of course if they were gonna pour the beam without steelwork then that would indeed be shocking !

2 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Have to assume their intention was to connect all the piles together using the rebar , create a cage with similar rebar the full length , make the forms then pour the beam .

Tied in rebar to rebar is the strongest method.

Of course if they were gonna pour the beam without steelwork then that would indeed be shocking !

There  is  rebar in the concrete but the way theyve  hacked the piles baring in mind meant to be 2 metres  deep, then cut  in half so just 1  metre, then put in by hand not driven in  with 40-50cm  still out of the soil then hacked  back to ground level = just 50cm IN the ground.

Then on top of that hand mixed concrete poured 6 metres  at a  time with cold  joints in @ every 6 or  so metres. Really should be one contiguous  pour the entire  length. Cold  Joints  photo below

3 hours ago, bodga said:

There  is  rebar in the concrete but the way theyve  hacked the piles baring in mind meant to be 2 metres  deep, then cut  in half so just 1  metre, then put in by hand not driven in  with 40-50cm  still out of the soil then hacked  back to ground level = just 50cm IN the ground.

Then on top of that hand mixed concrete poured 6 metres  at a  time with cold  joints in @ every 6 or  so metres. Really should be one contiguous  pour the entire  length. Cold  Joints  photo below

Can i ask you what is exactly the point to use concrete?

Is it to avoid the loss of water with the infiltration in the ground?

The usual ''Thai style'' is to let the natural ground on the pound, assuming the

ground is made from natural enough hard and waterproof material.

If it's not the case and your ground is not naturally waterproof, why you 

dont use a plastic sealing film like the ones used for the swimming pools?

It could be imo a less costly and above all a solution with less worry.

Sorry if i am wrong but i am just trying to think out of the box and helping you

concrete isn't the solution to all the problems (Even if the Thais disagree with that lol)

I have lived in PKK area for 8 years and can confirm builders and associated business is hard to come by

I think there's 2 decent companies in or around town/area the rest forget

 

Saying that i renovated a derelict house off the beaten track in Wakor, builder guy gave a decent price but them went missing on first day with a lao cao bender so we just stopped him immediately and came to an agreement with his workers (a family dad with a bad leg son and mother) we bought all stuff they did the  work ....worked out fine but took about a month of being on site every day

 

And Yes its been damper in PKK this year

5 hours ago, kingofthemountain said:

Can i ask you what is exactly the point to use concrete?

Is it to avoid the loss of water with the infiltration in the ground?

The usual ''Thai style'' is to let the natural ground on the pound, assuming the

ground is made from natural enough hard and waterproof material.

If it's not the case and your ground is not naturally waterproof, why you 

dont use a plastic sealing film like the ones used for the swimming pools?

It could be imo a less costly and above all a solution with less worry.

Sorry if i am wrong but i am just trying to think out of the box and helping you

concrete isn't the solution to all the problems (Even if the Thais disagree with that lol)

See  this  photo, this was taken at the driest time of the year, the water  has  never fallen  below the line  of the concrete, the concrete is  just there to stop the erosion from rainfall above the waterline, its  not there for any waterproofing, the ground  holds water just fine .

5 hours ago, poohy said:

And Yes its been damper in PKK this year

When I first came here a friend warned me Prachuap is  very dry....that was  about 2011, sure enough the next 7 years were absolutely bone dry,  Ive seen Pranburi dam very very low ,probably rained 5-6 times the whole  year then. Thats why we  dug an 8 metre deep  pond. 2019-20 were considerably  wetter by a LONG margin, this year by far the wettest.

The  only year Ive seen Pranburi dam  overflowing down the main spillway was 2019, quite a sight to see, been great for my trees but <deleted> for  my concrete which lasted 5 years before it slid  away 2 months  ago.

3 hours ago, bodga said:

See  this  photo, this was taken at the driest time of the year, the water  has  never fallen  below the line  of the concrete, the concrete is  just there to stop the erosion from rainfall above the waterline, its  not there for any waterproofing, the ground  holds water just fine .

Ok i get it

now another idea, it's a lot of hand work but maybe a definitive and cheap option

i have seen the Thais using this method around a big pond in the village

(In fact a small lake) and it's also the method used to do most of the piers on the sea side

at least in europe

 

if you can find in your area a lot of rocks of a decent size (50 cm or more) you can use

them starting from the base covering with rocks all your slide and at the end seal the whole

with mortar to avoid snakes and rats in the holes, between the rocks

 

You can be sure it will never move as all is supported by the biggest rocks on the base

that are positioned directly on the hard ground.

 

On the photo below it's a public beach and the rocks are very bigs

but it's just to show the idea and what i am taking about.

Of course you can use smaller rocks for your pond, however 

the smaller the rocks are, the more of them you need to cover all the slide

all depends of what types of rocks are available in your area and at what price

 

On 12/17/2020 at 11:36 PM, kingofthemountain said:

Ok i get it

now another idea, it's a lot of hand work but maybe a definitive and cheap option

i have seen the Thais using this method around a big pond in the village

(In fact a small lake) and it's also the method used to do most of the piers on the sea side

at least in europe

 

if you can find in your area a lot of rocks of a decent size (50 cm or more) you can use

them starting from the base covering with rocks all your slide and at the end seal the whole

with mortar to avoid snakes and rats in the holes, between the rocks

 

You can be sure it will never move as all is supported by the biggest rocks on the base

that are positioned directly on the hard ground.

 

On the photo below it's a public beach and the rocks are very bigs

but it's just to show the idea and what i am taking about.

Of course you can use smaller rocks for your pond, however 

the smaller the rocks are, the more of them you need to cover all the slide

all depends of what types of rocks are available in your area and at what price

 

Ive done this already, my land is  full of  rocks from several tons to tennis  ball  size.

Ive continued  the beam the <deleted> company did, theyve done 55%  of  it Ive done the rest finsihed.

Ive also smashed into the ground galvanised  metal  poles  1.5  inch diameter at 2  foot  intervals 1.5 to 2  metres  long , welded on some rebar to connect them  all together, then thrown rocks  in with a bit  of concrete to glue them together and finally   will cover the top with the finished concrete myself. Im pretty sure this  wont move after that, it  will probably  have about 150 of these  metal  poles in.

 

At this  stage doing 2  sections a  day, should be done in a few  weeks, minimal  cost, but again HAVING to do it myself, staff  just pass me the concrete and I level it  up, concrete mixer for  mixing.

Have to level up with stones between the top layer of concrete, heard  nothing from the Pile Co....no news is  good  news.

Looks good.

The old saying “ if you want something done right do it yourself ! “ springs to mind.

On 12/15/2020 at 9:49 AM, Natai Beach said:

100% agree in nearly every other situation, but construction they respect it and take the <deleted> if you don’t. 

I also have built many houses here in Thailand ( my design, then an architect to do a proper blueprint and specs).

I buy all materials myself and after my first 2 "learning experiences"  started to figure out how things are done here.

Note:   rarely do i try to change the main concept,  but will ask for some things to be done "my way".  If one is nice but confident/firm they will almost always agree.   The arguments i had on first 2 houses were  nearly non-existent later on.

I learned to tone down my extreme reactions,  think and plan better FIRST,  and not always look for the cheapest option .    Just from reading a few of the OPS  posts,  here and previously,  I know that if I suggested he might be causing many of the problems ( attitude,  demeanor,  not choosing well,  not seeking help first BEFORE hiring people,  not having specifics written into the contract...etc etc ) I would get an earful.    So I am in no way suggesting that could be the case .   Impossible !    

Even thai owners have problems with builders so yes,  one must try to have some KNOWLEDGE  or someone to hire for such to avoid some pitfalls.   Not much different than going to buy an old used car,  if you think about it.

I think my viewpoint on the OP and his "adventures in paradise"  can be guessed by TV members reading my post.   And his response will surely be :   "you know Rumak,  i am giving some deep thought to what you say" !

"Oh,  and here is my middle finger salute to you, roo muk ....  "    

thai smile to you,  khun bodga

6 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Looks good.

The old saying “ if you want something done right do it yourself ! “ springs to mind.

I always  have done, as  explained  at the beginning Im getting too  old for this which is why I employed  bill n ben builder  men...who werent

5 hours ago, rumak said:

I also have built many houses here in Thailand ( my design, then an architect to do a proper blueprint and specs).

I buy all materials myself and after my first 2 "learning experiences"  started to figure out how things are done here.

Note:   rarely do i try to change the main concept,  but will ask for some things to be done "my way".  If one is nice but confident/firm they will almost always agree.   The arguments i had on first 2 houses were  nearly non-existent later on.

I learned to tone down my extreme reactions,  think and plan better FIRST,  and not always look for the cheapest option .    Just from reading a few of the OPS  posts,  here and previously,  I know that if I suggested he might be causing many of the problems ( attitude,  demeanor,  not choosing well,  not seeking help first BEFORE hiring people,  not having specifics written into the contract...etc etc ) I would get an earful.    So I am in no way suggesting that could be the case .   Impossible !    

Even thai owners have problems with builders so yes,  one must try to have some KNOWLEDGE  or someone to hire for such to avoid some pitfalls.   Not much different than going to buy an old used car,  if you think about it.

I think my viewpoint on the OP and his "adventures in paradise"  can be guessed by TV members reading my post.   And his response will surely be :   "you know Rumak,  i am giving some deep thought to what you say" !

"Oh,  and here is my middle finger salute to you, roo muk ....  "    

thai smile to you,  khun bodga

I  think you seem to think I have been here 5  minutes, I have always done my own work, built 3  houses  myself, but am tired of doing this and wanted this done quickly so I can start after 7 years to relax.  There is  no  middle  finger, some  seem to be under the impression I stand  round directing workers  all day, I dont I physically did it  all often alone, and had  had enough for this last bit of  work.

On 12/14/2020 at 10:34 PM, bodga said:

plan to drown myself in it at this  rate.

 

I don't blame you at all for being cross about this situation.    I certainly would be as well.

 

Try to remember that in 10 months it'll all just be a part of your history and you'll be moving forward..

35 minutes ago, bodga said:

I  think you seem to think I have been here 5  minutes, I have always done my own work, built 3  houses  myself, but am tired of doing this and wanted this done quickly so I can start after 7 years to relax.  There is  no  middle  finger, some  seem to be under the impression I stand  round directing workers  all day, I dont I physically did it  all often alone, and had  had enough for this last bit of  work.

 

No,  i actually know that you have been here and work hard ...... very few would undertake the projects that you do.

I respect that you work on the land,  as i too love being outside and doing physical things.   I don't know you personally so of course i am "guessing"  that some of your problems IMO  are just that you have taken on more than i would given the challenges of such work and the difficulty of finding good workers.   BUT,  I have seen many bad bosses as well  .   What is your age ?

For me i still stay active but have sold my mango farm to come back to the city where i can slow down and take

care of the property here.   Tough choices,  but better than those "retire to a condo " majority.  

Just seems to me (from tone of your posts)  that you are fed up and not enjoying ,  or are overworked at this point.      Just my 2 cents.....    Take care of your health and find the right balance..... and good luck

On 12/24/2020 at 11:58 AM, rumak said:

Just from reading a few of the OPS  posts,  here and previously,  I know that if I suggested he might be causing many of the problems ( attitude,  demeanor,  not choosing well,  not seeking help first BEFORE hiring people,  not having specifics written into the contract...etc etc ) I would get an earful.    So I am in no way suggesting that could be the case .   Impossible ! 

From reading a few posts, here and previously, i am in no way suggesting that either. impossible 
 

Or that if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. (But not in this case where he looks to have paid too much) 

 

You have to stay on top of construction jobs here (and in other countries).
If there is an easy substandard way to do a job in two hours, or the best practice that will take six hours, and you are not watching over them, constantly asking them to confirm they are doing best practice and filming them,  which way do you think hard drinking Somchai and his mates will choose?