I Want Take Care Family

[richardb]

Thai children love their parents. This seems to be a universal truth I read time and time again in books on Thai culture. Time and time again on websites I read falangs bemoaning their lot; that they do not just have a girlfriend/wife/partner but seem to have taken on an entire clan of needy brothers, uncle’s cousins and parents. On one level the emotional life of a Thai seems to be a rich one. Love and respect given to parents, teachers etc. A rich language to describe a person’s heart. Complex strategies to ensure social harmony in a group and between individuals.

However I am becoming more and more convinced that the precepts and drivers that define much of Thai behavior are barking mad. Thinking back for a moment when discussing emotions with a Thai I do not think I have ever had a real meaningful conversation. Is this a sign of my shallowness or something else? I ask myself what I feel then what I want. I look to my means, my obligations to others, my own rights and needs. I consider consequences, cause and effect in the short term and in the long term. I weigh everything. I consider my actions. I analyze. By contrast from some Thais the only issue seems to be “I want to take care of my family". If there is something else going on I am never privy to it.

Take Tan (a made up name but a real person). I like/d Tan but due to the nature of her employment am not prepared to enter into a relationship with her. Consequently I am deemed untrustworthy. Tan may come round to my hotel leap under the covers of my bed ( fully clothed ) weep for three hours, fall asleep and in the morning act like nothing happened. She will deny anything happened and in the alternative say she will never speak of it with me. Any attempt by me to discuss her emotions or understand them is rebuffed ( I will get to the point about families in a minute ). Tan's employment centers on maximizing her families income by whatever means necessary. Now this could be a noble thing. My family help each other. However her family do not actually need help. They want better things, better motorbikes for the brothers for example. To me it is one thing to help family in need and another to provide luxury goods.

This weekend I received a text from Tan , a general how are you text. I text back telling Tan what I am doing. Tan texts back telling me she is getting married on such and such a date. Congratulations are in order or are they? " Are you happy? " I text. No answer so I dial her number. " Are you happy?". Tans answer " I want to take care of family ". The essential parts of the conversation go like this. "Well I will miss you....When you come Thailand....err you are getting married....Yes but will you be here before or after I marry... so you want to see me...up to you....what do you want..." No answer. I have absolutely no idea what is going through her head except that she will do anything to take care of her family. Family are number one. This is a big problem for me. I could possibly just possibly make a go of it with Tan if she came round to the thought that WE were number one but that is not going to happen ( yes I am conveniently ignoring the fact that in a short while she will be married ). Is Tan unique. I am not sure she is. Last month I was on MSM and a girl I had chatted to came on line. She told me that since we last chatted she had married and was living in England. She was worried and scared that her husband was drinking too much and they were rowing. And then that phrase again " I want take care of family".

Taking care of family is a good thing but in my world view there has to be balance. There are other factors that drive me.

Last weekend I took a short break with friends to the west coast of Ireland. After a day walking in the hills we popped into a little pub were people had gathered to play instruments. I noticed a really pretty girl near the bar. Trim , long dark curly hair maybe 25/26. If only I was 10 years younger I thought. I gave her a smile when I ordered our Guinness’s. A few rounds later well we got to chatting and enjoyed each others company. Later as we kissed in the village square. I know that for what ever reason she liked my company and my kiss it was not because I was potentially going to “take care of family".

I wonder what the families of Tan and my msn friend think. Are their brothers proud when they show of their new motorbike. Do the neighbors complement them on having such kind and devoted sisters?

It seems to me that this filial piety thing may have been a good thing in the past but is now a perversion of what it should be.

Is filial piety as universal as it seems to me to be? Is this concept modified at all by education and class? Can such learned behavior be unlearned.

Richard

[aussiestyle1983]

Hmmm, what can I say?

I agree that most Thais want to take care of their family (in the way you described above) but there are also some Thais who don't give a toss about their family and then there are the Thais that have enough common sense to realise if they devote their entire life to taking care of their family they will end up having no life for themselves, so they balance their own life and goals with helping out their family. I guess it comes down to how they were brought up, how strong their family is, how their family has treated them, how they think and a few other factors, but deffinently not all Thais are like this, just a large portion of them (and most of that large portion is made up of the ones that you have been refering to, the bar girls who come from poorer families, so this is understandable)

Edited May 9, 2007 by aussiestyle1983

[GuestHouse]

At some time the disconnect between what Thais tell you about their culture and the evidence of what Thai culture actually is will kick in.

When it does you might start less inclined to immediately accept the thing about 'Family Love' and start considering

'Manipulation', 'Brainwashing', Entitlement' and 'Guilt Trips'.

Some (but by all means not all) Thai families drive their children (Daughters) to do everything and anything to save the rest of the family working - When that occurs it has absolutely nothing to do with family love.

As a foreigner the thing to note is...

I know more than a couple Farangs busting their backsides working to house/feed/clothe/entertain Thai 'In-Laws' who are younger than their hardworking farang sponsor.

'Mum and dad are too old to work, but husband is not'.

Nah, you need to change where you are meeting women (and by ‘change’ I don't mean ‘change countries’).

[cdnvic]

In Thailand, or anywhere in Asia, it is not so easy to firewall oneself from the rest of the family as it is in the west. All the more reason why it's almost as important to screen in-laws as it is the potential mate themselves as these people will continue to exert a strong influence on your spouse for years to come. Are they hard working, self-sufficient people or did they try to take advantage of you at first opportunity? Poor or rich isn't always the determining factor, it's all a character thing. Anyone who thinks they can marry into a family in Thailand (or Vietnam, or China, or the Philippines) and detatch themselves from the influence of the inlaws is setting themselves up for trouble if they don't take these things into account before getting involved.

That being said, you can also wind up with great inlaws that make it a lot easier to adjust to Thailand. Not everyone is bad, far from it. But you do have to be wary.

[GuestHouse]

Screening the inlaws is a good idea, but rarely practical, many of them may not yet have joined the family.

Both my wife's sisters seemed to become very much more attractive after my wife and I married. Suiters where dropping out of the trees.

[blizzard]

is tan an angel of mercy?

if she is come on guys its just their job, what would you do if you had little education and little prospects for a good normal life.

west culture and east culture not same same.

in west many could care less what happens to their family. in east apparently not so.

by the way op, were you to save tan what would make you so different, she just sees you as a way to take care of family. im assuming you met her in her angel of mercy working bar(place)

Edited May 9, 2007 by blizzard

[MTW]

Let me start by saying that I am rather skeptical of anything and everything that goes on in Thailand. I did not arrive here like this but have learned this. I have found that Thai people are expert manipulators. Everything (which could be considered greedy) is done on behalf of someone else, not for their own benefit. This makes many farang feel weak since we are generally more straight with each other, and do not feel obliged to help every member of our distant family, etc.

We feel these people are so kind and generous, surely they could not be cheating US. However let's say that 99% of stuff they try to pull over on foreigners, in respect of their culture, never would happen if they were staying within their socio/economic Thai groups.

We are a business. If you are a young beautiful woman, that may be all you need to succeed. If not, maybe you need to build a hotel at the beach. Please keep in mind as a farang, it does not matter if you are good looking, you have a good education, wonderful manners, etc., as Thai people cannot usually recognize these things. It seems that 99% of Thai people don't even know NOT to pick their nose and flick it at the dinner table, much less NOT to pick their nose. And, in fairness, let me just say that this isn't only Thailand. Many Asian cultures seem to think the nose picking is the same as picking roses in a garden, rather than similar to picking your ass.

Personally, I don't think many Thai people are so concerned with taking care of family as we might want to think. I think they are mostly concerned with taking care of themselves and blaming it on others. Farangs, they know, think this is a good motivation for doing things we would not otherwise do. And the reasons they "NEED" to sell their body for example, you might think is for food for their family members and children. But in fact, it is really to buy the latest gadget that will make them look "rich" and after you have given your "girl" 20,000 baht, or your massage blind person a huge tip, you will not see the children in new clothes, but you will see them wearing new jeans, a new tatoo, or see them with a mobile phone worth what they supposedly make in 4 months.

Many Thai people seem to think that status lies with a cell phone or a cheap piece of gold jewelry, even when they do not have a house, do not have a car, cannot send their kid to school next week. An expensive bottle of whiskey is worth more for their reputation than having the school fees for tomorrow. All this crap we are told about taking care of families has been, in my experience, a lie, or complete bullshit so they can take care of themselves.

Before anyone freaks out on me, let me just say, that by this I mean, the wrong things are considered status in this culture/country. If, as a farang, I told my friends that I had just bought an all gold Rolex watch, for let's say $15,000 USD and I got the money as a loan at 50% interest a year, everyone would say I was crazy. This is obviously a purchase for people with money to burn and IF I NEED CREDIT to buy it, I don't deserve to have it. Now, if I said, " I have no idea how to come up with the school fees for my kids next week, my friends would certainly think I was a real idiot.

HOWEVER, in Thailand, you will be considered someone to look up to, because you have the watch on your arm,and nobody will talk about WHY you don't have money for your kid's school. They also will not question why you don't have money for any other so called necessity, but just look up to you because you are wearing your three daughters' virginity on your neck.

[cdnvic]

MTW you've been hanging with the wrong crowd if you think that's how "Thais" are.

[blizzard]

hey, i used that nose picking s h i t in another post and it wasnt appreciated at all.........lol.

but the thing is if its important to thai people to flash their wealth then it is what it is. it doesnt mean its not important becoz we think its silly.

if thais more concerned with the gravy rather than the( steak) substance thats their business. if they choose to spread em to make their money thats their business.

do you think they gonna get sponsors keeping their things shut.

too many try to impose western thinking on these poor silly thais(only joking thais)

[Mobi]

There is an element of truth in much of what has been posted here, and clearly reflect the personal experiences of the posters, which only proves how dangerous it is to generalise.

You will find the whole gamut, ranging from totally selfish young ladies who couldn't give a toss about their families, to those who send every stang back home, even though the family is well above the poverty level.

Having said that - my personal experiences - going back more than 30 years would definitely indicate that posts numbers 2, 3 and 4 are substantially nearer the norm than number 7, though such people certainly exist.

[SnakeBite]

RUN FOREST RUN is what I would say from the info you have supplied.

[qualtrough]

The OP writes, "However I am becoming more and more convinced that the precepts and drivers that define much of Thai behavior are barking mad," and then as his prime example he uses 'Tan', who from his description must work in the 'entertainment' business:

"I like/d Tan but due to the nature of her employment am not prepared to enter into a relationship with her... Tan may come round to my hotel leap under the covers of my bed ( fully clothed ) weep for three hours, fall asleep and in the morning act like nothing happened...Tan's employment centers on maximizing her families income by whatever means necessary. Now this could be a noble thing."

To me this is the equivalent of someone bemoaning, say, American behavior, and then illustrating their point by describing the problems they have relating to a hooker they met in Las Vegas. Apparently it has never occurred to some people here that the women they meet in the 'entertainment' business in Thailand are not necessarily representative of all Thai women, or all Thai people for that matter.

[uptou]

Let me start by saying that I am rather skeptical of anything and everything that goes on in Thailand. I did not arrive here like this but have learned this. I have found that Thai people are expert manipulators. Everything (which could be considered greedy) is done on behalf of someone else, not for their own benefit. This makes many farang feel weak since we are generally more straight with each other, and do not feel obliged to help every member of our distant family, etc.

We feel these people are so kind and generous, surely they could not be cheating US. However let's say that 99% of stuff they try to pull over on foreigners, in respect of their culture, never would happen if they were staying within their socio/economic Thai groups.

We are a business. If you are a young beautiful woman, that may be all you need to succeed. If not, maybe you need to build a hotel at the beach. Please keep in mind as a farang, it does not matter if you are good looking, you have a good education, wonderful manners, etc., as Thai people cannot usually recognize these things. It seems that 99% of Thai people don't even know NOT to pick their nose and flick it at the dinner table, much less NOT to pick their nose. And, in fairness, let me just say that this isn't only Thailand. Many Asian cultures seem to think the nose picking is the same as picking roses in a garden, rather than similar to picking your ass.

Personally, I don't think many Thai people are so concerned with taking care of family as we might want to think. I think they are mostly concerned with taking care of themselves and blaming it on others. Farangs, they know, think this is a good motivation for doing things we would not otherwise do. And the reasons they "NEED" to sell their body for example, you might think is for food for their family members and children. But in fact, it is really to buy the latest gadget that will make them look "rich" and after you have given your "girl" 20,000 baht, or your massage blind person a huge tip, you will not see the children in new clothes, but you will see them wearing new jeans, a new tatoo, or see them with a mobile phone worth what they supposedly make in 4 months.

Many Thai people seem to think that status lies with a cell phone or a cheap piece of gold jewelry, even when they do not have a house, do not have a car, cannot send their kid to school next week. An expensive bottle of whiskey is worth more for their reputation than having the school fees for tomorrow. All this crap we are told about taking care of families has been, in my experience, a lie, or complete bullshit so they can take care of themselves.

Before anyone freaks out on me, let me just say, that by this I mean, the wrong things are considered status in this culture/country. If, as a farang, I told my friends that I had just bought an all gold Rolex watch, for let's say $15,000 USD and I got the money as a loan at 50% interest a year, everyone would say I was crazy. This is obviously a purchase for people with money to burn and IF I NEED CREDIT to buy it, I don't deserve to have it. Now, if I said, " I have no idea how to come up with the school fees for my kids next week, my friends would certainly think I was a real idiot.

HOWEVER, in Thailand, you will be considered someone to look up to, because you have the watch on your arm,and nobody will talk about WHY you don't have money for your kid's school. They also will not question why you don't have money for any other so called necessity, but just look up to you because you are wearing your three daughters' virginity on your neck.

& we are not materialistic in the west?if anything i would say that an increase in western style advertising,& influence could partly be to blame.

[undercover]

The OP sounds as complicated and as mixed up as Tan.

due to the nature of her employment I am not prepared to enter into a relationship with her...

Give it a go it might sort the two of you out ?

[richardb]

Interesting views but my focus as much as anything was on what, I presume, must be the psychological impact ( or maybe there is none ) of doing everything for the family.

Edited May 9, 2007 by richardb

[MTW]

Sorry if I have offended some people here about my views of Thailand. I think I am able to say these things ESPECIALLY because I am a farang woman who has lived here for several years. By that I mean, that I have NOT been manipulated through sex, since I had a sex-free existense here for some time. I am in a relationship now, and have been for almost 2 years, but ALL OF MY BAD EXPERIENCES that I may refer to, came from my relationships from "Thai friends" who screwed me over royally and were totally platonic.

I DO think that men who come here, and have a Thai "wife" have the advantage. Possibly they have a person who loves them, for whatever reason, in this they have a translator, an advocate for everything if they are serious about their woman, they have a maid, a cook, a guide, and someone who generally cares if they go broke or not.

I only had Thai "friends" who only made money when I spent money ... in other words ... saving money for their future because I might be a man 20 years older than them did not come into play. Only getting commission when I bought something brought them money. There was no sex or anything else involved and Thai men here are very quick to tell us "girls" that we are not acting correctly. If my shirt was not up to my ears, I heard about it. In three years I have only had one sexual experience with a Thai, and it seems shocking to them, as if I was a bargirl working overtime, and I have stayed in a steady relationship with that person for almost 2 years now.And without haiving anything to do with bargirls, I learned a lot about what Thai women think. And let's just say about Thai people in general.

The bottom line, if you haven't learned it already, is YES, we are their personal ATMs. And money, what to do with it, how to manage it, doesn't have anything to do with the culture we have learned.

Thai people hope to be "lucky" like us from scoring on some lottery or gambling experience. As for me, I have never earned money from gamble type of situations. But they don't want to hear this!!! They think I was " lucky" and that is all ... education had nothing to do with it, business skills had nothing to do with it, ( as obviously I am so stupid and GIVE money they ask to borrow, so no need to pay it back as I am as rich as a GOD that can grow money on trees.)

Blah, blah, blah, I have only become a walking money tree to everyone here. They would like to thinK I can grow it on trees, but they don't want to listen to any of my advise about how to make a business and make a profit. It is like they want to think that we are all stupid idiots, otherwise why would we pay too much, why woulod we give to chairity, etc.

The word or concept of altruism does not exist here. We are only idiots paying for things they should do themselves.

[blizzard]

thats what im thinking when i have a fully clothed thai girl in my bed! referring to post 15.

mtv, im lost , u man or women. i dont think thais see women as atms.....lol.

Edited May 9, 2007 by blizzard

[qualtrough]

...since I had a sex-free existense here for some time.

OK, I am getting a clearer picture of why you might be bitter!

Sounds like Thailand ain't for you. Move along then, nothing to see here!

P.S. And if you have been in a steady relationship for two years, why are you kissing pretty 20 somethings in Ireland? Perhaps your definition of steady is a bit different than most...

[MTW]

okay, blizzard, "you don't think thais see woman as atms"?? Can you tell me why that would be???? Do you think only men have enough money to impress some Thai people? Or do you think that farang men are really so wonderful that Thai women can give up everything for them but that there are NO farang women who could attract a Thai man?

You know there are farang women who are not terribly fat and ugly and who also happened to make money before they came to Thailand. Men are not the only people who might be a Taxi driver in Holland and seem rich to a poor country girl, there might possibly be farang women doctors, lawyers, whatever, who got sick of their fat, complaining farang partner,and moved to Thailand.

I guess you are sure based on your life experience that women could never have enough money to look like an ATM to any Thai person.

And Qualtrough- what are you talking about? I never talked about kissing 20 somethings in Ireland or anywhere. To be clear, I did not have any relationships with ANY people because I was getting divorced when I came here and didn't want to complicate the situation. Unlike some people I believe it is better to get over one situation before starting in another. So I waited an appropriate time, and then seemed to find someone worth getting involved with. And I did NOt NOt get involved with a new person because I was unable to, I made this choice. Seems to have been a good one, as I am still 100% with the only person I tried out, so to speak.

I will differ with you on your "bitter" view of me because I had a sex-free existence. Some people are not addicted to "other people" and have a choice in life. Maybe your spouse would appreciate you making this kind of choice as mine did.

Sorry, but I don't see this country as only for the sexpats. Maybe you don't have anything else to see here.

[qualtrough]

MTW, Sorry for mixing you up with the OP about the girl in the pub. You come across as a very unhappy person. I suspect that Thailand has very little to do with it.

[qwertz]

MTW, you're making sense to me. Please post on.

[MTW]

Qualtrough- I am sorry you were confused about me as I don't see anywhere in this subject about a girl in a pub situation that you could have confused me with.

I am sorry your are confused and I suspect that Thailand has very little to do with it.

[appleman_thai]

Richard,

A good looking woman in the West of Ireland!!!??? She must have been Polish!!!!

[qwertz]

Thai people respect you more if you reject their BS, like people everywhere. If they offer to show me proof of their problem I show them proof of my disinterest. I am not there as a convenience for them and I only pay for what I get. In my lifetime I've collected a cellar full of promises that I can't cash in. Incidentally, I already had this philosophy long before I first hit Thailand but it's just as sound there as anywhere else..

[Loz]

A lot of valid points made in this thread. none maybe more critical that, "not everyone is the same" and "background is everything". Seems simply that when one engages with a women of a certian background, to forget how you think of such women back home, is at best nieve.

funny, as an off shoot of this thread I should mention in light of MTW's comments, I have had the recurring thought that I might meet a western woman out here that came for the same reasons or at least has broadly similar values and a sense of adventure. I think (after almost a year here full-time) I am more likely to enjoy a relationship with such a woman than I am with someone I can't enjoy the subtleties and complexities of a language with. My only fear is that then I might become lazy about learning the language. That said, I'm not "looking" for a relationship either. Except with a Motorbike... but thats a whole other forum.

Walking ATM? Ok I live up country but I have had limited experience of this. Maybe because I don't go out to bars and night clubs. (oh, what an empty life I must lead...)

[Pepe']

Let me start by saying that I am rather skeptical of anything and everything that goes on in Thailand. I did not arrive here like this but have learned this. I have found that Thai people are expert manipulators. Everything (which could be considered greedy) is done on behalf of someone else, not for their own benefit. This makes many farang feel weak since we are generally more straight with each other, and do not feel obliged to help every member of our distant family, etc.

We feel these people are so kind and generous, surely they could not be cheating US. However let's say that 99% of stuff they try to pull over on foreigners, in respect of their culture, never would happen if they were staying within their socio/economic Thai groups.

We are a business. If you are a young beautiful woman, that may be all you need to succeed. If not, maybe you need to build a hotel at the beach. Please keep in mind as a farang, it does not matter if you are good looking, you have a good education, wonderful manners, etc., as Thai people cannot usually recognize these things. It seems that 99% of Thai people don't even know NOT to pick their nose and flick it at the dinner table, much less NOT to pick their nose. And, in fairness, let me just say that this isn't only Thailand. Many Asian cultures seem to think the nose picking is the same as picking roses in a garden, rather than similar to picking your ass.

Personally, I don't think many Thai people are so concerned with taking care of family as we might want to think. I think they are mostly concerned with taking care of themselves and blaming it on others. Farangs, they know, think this is a good motivation for doing things we would not otherwise do. And the reasons they "NEED" to sell their body for example, you might think is for food for their family members and children. But in fact, it is really to buy the latest gadget that will make them look "rich" and after you have given your "girl" 20,000 baht, or your massage blind person a huge tip, you will not see the children in new clothes, but you will see them wearing new jeans, a new tatoo, or see them with a mobile phone worth what they supposedly make in 4 months.

Many Thai people seem to think that status lies with a cell phone or a cheap piece of gold jewelry, even when they do not have a house, do not have a car, cannot send their kid to school next week. An expensive bottle of whiskey is worth more for their reputation than having the school fees for tomorrow. All this crap we are told about taking care of families has been, in my experience, a lie, or complete bullshit so they can take care of themselves.

Before anyone freaks out on me, let me just say, that by this I mean, the wrong things are considered status in this culture/country. If, as a farang, I told my friends that I had just bought an all gold Rolex watch, for let's say $15,000 USD and I got the money as a loan at 50% interest a year, everyone would say I was crazy. This is obviously a purchase for people with money to burn and IF I NEED CREDIT to buy it, I don't deserve to have it. Now, if I said, " I have no idea how to come up with the school fees for my kids next week, my friends would certainly think I was a real idiot.

HOWEVER, in Thailand, you will be considered someone to look up to, because you have the watch on your arm,and nobody will talk about WHY you don't have money for your kid's school. They also will not question why you don't have money for any other so called necessity, but just look up to you because you are wearing your three daughters' virginity on your neck.

--------------------------

I beg to disagree with cdnvic.

I find Thais largely to be as you described. Not all but most I've met here and in LOS.

[kmart]

Well, reading this load of flowery, pretentious bunkum is 10 minutes of my life that I'll never get back. Sorry, what was the thread about again?

[taxexile]

can i recommend the book "INSIDE THAI SOCIETY , RELIGION , EVERYDAY LIFE , CHANGE" by NEILS MULDER.

that may throw some light on how many of the good principles that form the foundations of life in thailand can be used and abused and end up causing great confusion to foriegners.

read especially the nature of "bunkhun" relationships , and the obligations that they may put on children , obligations that may be felt for life , obligations that may seem irrational and unecessary to westerners , but are very real to many thais.

consider them an extreme eastern equivalent of catholic or jewish guilt.

[Etrigan]

Yet again I find myself wasting time reading about yet another farang who can't figure out what's going on inside the head of yet another bargirl.

Silly story. Read it. Saw it. Asked for my money back.

[madjbs]

Wow! With an atitude like that MTW its no suprise that nobody has ever felt in the slightest bit guilty using you as an ATM or screwing you over.