Poll- Do You Feel That Thailand Wants You Or Wants You Out?

[Naam]

Maybe the will raise the retirement age too.... eliminate some more

Not likely. It used to be 55.

How does the retirement age having previously been 55 eliminate the possibility that the minimum age couldn't be returned to 55 or even raised to 60?

how does the present age limit of 50 eliminates the possibility that this limit may be reduced to 45 or even 40? in this thread a zillion baseless assumptions are made; where are the hard facts?

[dumspero]

Click- It's clear to me that Thailand doesn't want you, at least given what you're doing right now. Which apparently is living on a tight budget and not working. Thailand certainly wants other farangs, if and as long as it's in Thailand's interests.

There was never any form of actual or implied contract. Anyone with a clue should expect the Thai government to act, for the most part, in what it perceives to be the best interests of Thailand. That's what countries tend to do, act in a way they perceive is in their own best interests, not those of foreigners. Similarly, countries tend to welcome in foreigners when they perceive it as in the countries' interests. This often means people who have special skills, skills in short supply in-country, workers with big companies that are investing serous money, and then sometimes retirees who are affluent relative to the wealth of the country's populace. Small scale foreign businessmen are always on shaky ground, and right now, wisely or unwisely (I think wisely), Thailand is contracting against small-scale foreign business and more clearly against those with no real money and no jobs.

From your posts, you are in that latter category. You certainly have the right to live your life your way, which is apparently not to focus on money, and instead not to work, to live on a tight budget and then focus on your wife and raising your small child. That's certainly admirable and beautiful, but you have to think about whether it's reasonable to expect Thailand, as a country, to give a ###### about you, individually. You seem to think things should be more about you than is realistic.

Finally, you have no right to whine. You are young, you have a loving family it seems, and apparently you have your health and enough money to put you way ahead of most humans. So it's not the end of the world if the Kingdom of Thailand has decided you're not a priority. Maybe the millions of truly impoverished Thai citizens are more on their mind....

[ovenman]

Maybe the will raise the retirement age too.... eliminate some more

Not likely. It used to be 55.

How does the retirement age having previously been 55 eliminate the possibility that the minimum age couldn't be returned to 55 or even raised to 60?

how does the present age limit of 50 eliminates the possibility that this limit may be reduced to 45 or even 40?

It doesn't. People were discussing methods by which the screws could be tightened since this does seem to be the general trend. Raising the retirement age is potentially one of those methods. I was simply curious as to Dakhar's thoughts as to why he thinks the retirement age couldn't be raised again even if the last change lowered the retirement age to 50.

[JR Texas]

One thing I've noticed is that none of the ones who have been here for 15, 20 years or more seem all that worried. Maybe a more long term view of things helps?

I know one guy that is a long time resident of thailand that isn't worried. He has been here for 25 years and the last 20 of those have been without a visa.

JR Texas: I have been here since about 1986, so I suppose I qualify as a long term resident. In the past, I did not have a visa problem, then I did, and now I don't (professor at a university).

My posts and complaints reflect my frustration with the changes to the visa/business rules and regulations that have taken place since 2000.

The "rules" are contributing to the destruction of the Thailand that I once loved. They are hurting my friends, both Thais and farangs. They are setting up an explosive situation. And they are making me worried about my own future here.

Some of my expat friends have already left the country, largely because of the rule changes. Some shut down their businesses (and had to fire Thais in the process) and relocated to different countries. Others are seriously thinking about moving to better destinations.

Because of the negative trends that I am seeing in Thailand, I am seriously thinking about moving to Cambodia or Vietnam where the visa/business rules are far more favorable. And, I could, if I wanted to, stay here and teach until I am an old man--perhaps with no visa problem.

Am I worried? Yes. And if you are an expat, with or without a lot of money and/or a grandfathered clause that you mistakenly think protects you, you should be worried too.

[Ling Kae]

click2delete, it isn't all that bad. I don't know how much income per month you have but with a boy and a wife I would think you might need at least 40,000 Baht a Month to survive so what you need to do is verify your income stream. Once you have done this and can show it to immigration then you can continue your uninterrupted stays here.

If you can't verify an income then just get yourself a multiple non O visa on the basis of being married to a Thai, this is what I have. You only need to pay a one off fee for this visa once a year, no 400K in the bank required or no evidence of 40K a Month coming in. The only downside is that every 90 days a you need to do a border run. It is not that much of a pain in the butt to do such a run 4 times a year.

[ray23]

Yuo got a not sure from me, you see I delayed my coming here by five years so I could comply with the law. For the very reason your upset, I didn't want to take the chance of having the rug pulled out from under me after I had invested time and money in creating a life here.

Well they want yuo to jump thropuhg some hoop I would start looking for the hoops if I wanted to stay here. Being upset isn't going to change a thing for you.

Ya sometime I feel like I'm not welcome, but then usually I go do something that I enjoy and I just don't care about it anylonger. Mans worst enemy in Thainland is cabin fever.

If you want to stay you will find a way if not then move on to what you value. Have your wife open a noodle shop and declare the income. Come on you can do this if you really want to.

The truth is you made your choice in shakey grounds.

[cdnvic]

The truth is you made your choice in shakey grounds.

Exactly. Before one sets up a family it's a good idea to have a way to take care of it beforehand. Blaming the government does nothing to provide security for them.

[wolfmanjack]

Finally, you have no right to whine. You are young, you have a loving family it seems, and apparently you have your health and enough money to put you way ahead of most humans. So it's not the end of the world if the Kingdom of Thailand has decided you're not a priority. Maybe the millions of truly impoverished Thai citizens are more on their mind....

So why don't you fill us in on how kicking out small to medium sized businesses owned by falangs is helping the poor people in thailand ? I consider myself a small business but growing even in this negative business climate. The ONLY reason I am growing is because i have one large customer in the UK, and several in the USA that have tried purchasing from thai companies and stopped due to poor quality. Since they have started buying from me they have started expanding their product line as my ability to produce increases. Also other companies that find out i am manufacturing for these companies they are jumping on board. My future looks pretty rosy right now but could be F*****d up by the thai gov. Now I have at least 50 thais that work for me directly or indirectly. If I am forced to stop then all of these jobs will move to wherever I decide to move to. Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia.

With the decrease in local sale and the decrease in exports going on at the same time how do you think these people will find new jobs ?

Also it is my opinion that most if not all falang companies pay tax, pay at least the minimum wage and include social insurance for their workers. It is also my observation that most small to medium thai companies do none of the above. When I took over my company the workers were getting 80 baht per day. At that time the minimum was 120 or higher. Today i know many thai companies producing in the same field that start their workers at 80 baht and max them out at 100 per day. That is what is in store for thai workers if we all leave. Exploitation by their thai bosses.

To put all of this in perspective remember that the majority of the jobs are produced by SME's that the gov is kicking out not Multinationals that the gov wants.

[Dakhar]

Maybe the will raise the retirement age too.... eliminate some more

Not likely. It used to be 55.

How does the retirement age having previously been 55 eliminate the possibility that the minimum age couldn't be returned to 55 or even raised to 60?

how does the present age limit of 50 eliminates the possibility that this limit may be reduced to 45 or even 40?

It doesn't. People were discussing methods by which the screws could be tightened since this does seem to be the general trend. Raising the retirement age is potentially one of those methods. I was simply curious as to Dakhar's thoughts as to why he thinks the retirement age couldn't be raised again even if the last change lowered the retirement age to 50.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that they would lower the age.... which would be wonderful if they did. Heck I would take a lower age with a statement of money in the Bank of 4 million plus.... I would still think that is step toward right direction. But my statement was I thought within the trend that Thailand has shown of tightening the screws. If they raise the age, it is in my opinion less of the older generation would come to Thailand. The 50 year old mindset is still pretty young for a lot of folks. Hit 60-65 and well I imagine folks start to be less adventureous, and the need or desire to be closer to family and friends would be higher. No, insults intended.

[chuchok]

The truth is you made your choice in shakey grounds.

Exactly. Before one sets up a family it's a good idea to have a way to take care of it beforehand. Blaming the government does nothing to provide security for them.

Well,the governments (This one and the last one) don't want us here.I'm sure they take quite delight in making farang jump through hoops.IMO,people can blame the government all they like,'cause it's true.I am sometimes amazed,how a govenment can actually make laws that hurt their citizens,only because of their zenophobic stance.

[wolfmanjack]

Yuo got a not sure from me, you see I delayed my coming here by five years so I could comply with the law. For the very reason your upset, I didn't want to take the chance of having the rug pulled out from under me after I had invested time and money in creating a life here.

Ok. So lets see how you would feel in this situatiuon.

The "married" visa used to be 200k in the bank. You worked 5 years to save 200K that you could leave in the bank. Enough to buy your own home and an annuity (just for arguments sake) that provides you with monthly income of say 30,000 per month. When you are all set to move to thailand with your wife they change the rule to 400,000 baht in the bank. Oh shit now I have to try and find new job because i already quit my old job so I can save another 200,000 baht. Then after working and saving for another 3 years you finally have enough. You quit your job and move to thailand. Then when you are already here immigration says sorry but we just changed the rule to 40k per month instead. Oh shit again. You only have 30k per month coming in from your annuity. I guess you have to set up a fake job and pay your wife 10k per month from the 400k that you have saved and pay taxes on it again.

Do you have the right to get pissed ? I would.

[Phil Conners]

What it means is that the Thailand government couldn't give a ###### about the people who come here to spend their money.

But still they come, and come again, and stay, and buy land in a Thai womans name, and moan and bitch on internet forums about how hard done by they are.

They do have choices, but their future will depend on whether the choice they made was right or wrong.

You know the rules of the game, and it's a game for the big boys, if you can't hack it, sit on the touchline and pass out the orange slices at half time.

Are you actually Toxin or do you just sound like him? Not just this quoted post, but every post I read by you. You sound like a Bangkok taxi driver.

Who are you? Thai? If you hate farangs so much why do you frequent a farang forum?

[Dakhar]

Yuo got a not sure from me, you see I delayed my coming here by five years so I could comply with the law. For the very reason your upset, I didn't want to take the chance of having the rug pulled out from under me after I had invested time and money in creating a life here.

Well they want yuo to jump thropuhg some hoop I would start looking for the hoops if I wanted to stay here. Being upset isn't going to change a thing for you.

Ya sometime I feel like I'm not welcome, but then usually I go do something that I enjoy and I just don't care about it anylonger. Mans worst enemy in Thainland is cabin fever.

If you want to stay you will find a way if not then move on to what you value. Have your wife open a noodle shop and declare the income. Come on you can do this if you really want to.

The truth is you made your choice in shakey grounds.

What stinks is that you did delay for 5 years, which was prudent, but one day you make find out you should have delayed for 10 years. I delayed for around 5 years too. Which means I missed the Oct rule on 400baht grandfather visa situation. Which CLICK2delete has pointed out that apparently they are not really allowing for a grandfather in 100% of all cases anyways.

Fortuanatley economically I make a fair wage, but..... the catch is I have to work crazy hours, along with my wife, and we do not get to see or be a part of our child's life. If I worked back home I could at least see him more often and the wife could raise him.

Anyway... this is where were are for now.

[Galong]

But still they come, and come again, and stay, and buy land in a Thai womans name, and moan and bitch on internet forums about how hard done by they are.

They do have choices, but their future will depend on whether the choice they made was right or wrong.

You know the rules of the game, and it's a game for the big boys, if you can't hack it, sit on the touchline and pass out the orange slices at half time.

Yes, we buy land in our wive's names because your racist government doesn't allow us to buy it ourselves. Thais can come to my country (US) and buy land. And, whenever something goes wrong or the gov wants to shake things up they pick on the buyer, even though a thai sold the land and a thai lawyer (in most cases) did the sometimes shady paperwork.

Answer me this please, why is it always the farang who is considered to be the causes of all the problems in this country? Aren't there any thais who are man enough to accept responsibilty.

I feel that part of the problem is that the Chinese who have colonized Thailand don't want to have to compete on a level playing field... thus they make it hard for non-asians to get ahead.

I may or may not spend the rest of my life here... haven't decided. The four families that I support by employing them a wages at least three time what they'd make anywhere else will suffer. But I'm sure the gov is ok with that if they can get rid of a farang. Trust me, I will make it my life's work to expose the facts about the Land of Smiles. I've got enough info for a book already, complete with tons of photos.

Land of Smiles.... yeah, as long as your wallet is open!

[dumspero]

wolfmanjack- As I wrote in my post, I don't KNOW whether the contraction against small foreign businesses is wise, it's just that I think it is. A guess, really.

I believe the thinking is that foreigners in Thailand should not be competing against Thais. This is the thinking in many countries. Allow in working foreigners only if the need can't be filled internally. Is any of that a surprise, really? Also, some would say that macro-economic policy in a country of 60-whatever million people should not be set with a few hundred or thousand small foreign controlled businesses in mind. Why work to fit the exception into the rule? Another consideration may a symbolic one. There is no easy answer for the lower middle class small business owners/would be business owners in Thailand just like there is no easy answer for the truly impoverished masses. That is, there is absolutely nothing the Thai government can do to solve all their problems overnight. Hence, even if closing/deterring the tiny percentage of small businesses that are foreign controlled would have only a tiny impact on those Thais looking to move/expand in to that sector as owners, it might have a larger symbolic value in terms of showing the people that the government cares about them first, and foreign businesses second. On the other hand, encouraging large scale foreign investment creates many, many resulting opportunities for the small business sector. And of course some of this is perspective. What to one person is appropriate nationalisam or 'putting Thais first' might, to another person, just be outright xenophobia.

I understand that none of these academic opinions from an expat working outside Thailand lowers the frustration level of somebody, such as yourself, who has a small business in Thailand that is empoying very real Thais who would be hurt in all too real ways if/when the business closes. But it is, I believe, what is happening and why.

The beauty of the forum is that others can certainly let us know if they disagree.

[lordofdelusion]

There is one thing for sure here and that is that nothing is sure.

A contract is as much worth as the piece of paper it's written on.

Thai governments and businesses are, overall, known to be unreliable. That's a reliable fact.

Keep these things in mind and don't invest a lot of money in this country, don't buy a house here but buy one back home and rent it out, don't burn your bridges back home and then ................... enjoy and relax.

Each year here is like a gift, but might be your last. Prepare yourself that you might/will have to leave one day.

Very intelligent post. We should understand impermanence living in a Buddhist country.

Unlike my president, dubyah, I have an exit strategy and so should everyone else.

[Phil Conners]

I believe the thinking is that foreigners in Thailand should not be competing against Thais. This is the thinking in many countries.

Like which? European? No! North or South American? No! In both Europe and all of the Americas competition and foreigners are welcome. There will of course always be a minority in any democracy that disagree, but the official line, and general situation is that foreigners are good for society.

Some limits are put on immigration, not because foreigners are hated, but because of a social security system that many people from poor countries would like to exploit. That is very different from just wanting to be left alone to take care of one self. Don't compare apples with bananas.

Asia? Perhaps, I don't know enough about the rest of Asia to be sure, but I have a feeling it is part of the dog pack mentality of Asia. Our dog pack is going to beat your dog pack.

Edited May 13, 2007 by Phil Conners

[lazeeboy]

wolfmanjack- As I wrote in my post, I don't KNOW whether the contraction against small foreign businesses is wise, it's just that I think it is. A guess, really.

I believe the thinking is that foreigners in Thailand should not be competing against Thais. This is the thinking in many countries. Allow in working foreigners only if the need can't be filled internally. Is any of that a surprise, really? Also, some would say that macro-economic policy in a country of 60-whatever million people should not be set with a few hundred or thousand small foreign controlled businesses in mind. Why work to fit the exception into the rule? Another consideration may a symbolic one. There is no easy answer for the lower middle class small business owners/would be business owners in Thailand just like there is no easy answer for the truly impoverished masses. That is, there is absolutely nothing the Thai government can do to solve all their problems overnight. Hence, even if closing/deterring the tiny percentage of small businesses that are foreign controlled would have only a tiny impact on those Thais looking to move/expand in to that sector as owners, it might have a larger symbolic value in terms of showing the people that the government cares about them first, and foreign businesses second. On the other hand, encouraging large scale foreign investment creates many, many resulting opportunities for the small business sector. And of course some of this is perspective. What to one person is appropriate nationalisam or 'putting Thais first' might, to another person, just be outright xenophobia.

I understand that none of these academic opinions from an expat working outside Thailand lowers the frustration level of somebody, such as yourself, who has a small business in Thailand that is empoying very real Thais who would be hurt in all too real ways if/when the business closes. But it is, I believe, what is happening and why.

The beauty of the forum is that others can certainly let us know if they disagree.

i have been in thailand 13 years working with a work permit the whole time ,it has for me got easier over the years to stay in thailand .im not married yet i have a resident visa ,dont do visa runs and some of my staff have been with me for over 10 years ,so i know they are happy ,the only thais that would rather see me go are my competitors ,any thais that know me including police lawyers and low life builders and the like call me there brother ,and its not that i am gererous far from it ,the call me cheap charlie. if you want respect from any thai you have to earn it ,and treat all regardless of class with respect ,and then they will show you some back,the problem with most falangs is they come here on holiday with there visa cards once a year spend 1500pound ,think they are god for the 2 weeks ,and go home to work to pay for it ,then next year do the same .some of these thais have better jobs than they do,they may not be paid as much but the cost of living is much lower. after all do you like the so called foreiners that live in your own country that drive big cars and live in big houses? i doubt it .dont tar all thais with the same brush ,some are lovely people that do deserve some of your respect .whinge over sorry

[dumspero]

Phil Conners- So if I'm Thai I can just move to the US, Germany, France or England with twenty thousand dollars or whatever, open some kind of small business and live there indefinitely on some kind of business visa?

It would be like that in my perfect world (along with many other changes), but is that really the law in those countries?

[popshirt]

I am increasingly getting tired of the arrogance and silliness of the Thai Government.

I don't want to live in Switzerland, England or the USA - the governments work all too well.

I don't want him growing up Thai.

i think you are very confused and you dont know what you want.

I would like to propose some remedial reading courses for you - it was as direct as I could write it.

My boy is Thai but I'll be damned if he will grow up to act like most Thai Men.

Governments such as England and the USA have thievery down to a science.

How might I help your comprehension?

Oh you will LOVE Panama then! I owned property (condo) there and was lucky enough to get out of it. Thievery, thuggery, corruption and isolation. Farang there are mostly US ex-miilitary with Rambo mindset. Outside of the center of Panama City you have little else but jungle and drug lord country. For decent shopping/supplies you fly to Miami. Have you ever heard of a Panamanian restaurant? Food is little better than Manila unless you eat in a North American franchise or hi-so restaurant. They are courting retirees but the ones who are moving there are mostly cheap Charlies. Panama is a violent country and quite dangerous outside the farang enclave. Inside the farang enclave burglary/robbery is endemic and farang are seen as fair game. By the way, I speak, read and write Spanish. Just my experience.

[Austhaied]

You forgot another voting option.

Who cares.. I don't.

So therefore you're not in Thailand ?

You have no interest in being in Thailand ?

Would you be interested in some very good knitting forums ?

I could also recommend a very good "so you think YOU are a smart-arse" forum.

1. I DO live and work in Thailand

2. I already administrate a knitting forum (knityourownpubes.com)

3. I KNOW I'm a smartarse

When i say i don't care i mean you are worrying over nothing, it will all turn around for the better soon enough..

[dumspero]

lazeeboy- Not sure why you quote my post? I'm not 'tarring' any Thais, let alone all of them. And there's also no disrespect for Thais in the post. Just the opposite. And I'm certainly not one to say all Thais are the same.

Cheers.

[Phil Conners]

@dumspero: yes, more or less. The figure is higher, more or less relative to the GDP of the country.

@popshirt: Don't know about Panama, but at least Brazil, a country the size of USA, has similar cost than Thailand with a lot more benefits, as long as you stay out of the big cities.

@Austhaied: knityourownpubes.com? It doesn't exist - and if it did and the Thai authorities knew about that and your link to it they would probably deport you post haste.

[bannork]

I feel sorry for the OP's wife with a child of one month that the father doesn't want brought up as Thai and a totally uncertain future.

[Dakhar]

Yes foreingers can go to America and start a business. If you start a letigitimate business, expect to be corn holed by taxes. And they corn hole everyone equally despite your nationality. You will have the honor of paying employment tax, state tax etc etc. I opened a business and every other day I would get a surprise notice in the mail about some tax I never heard of....

Eventually I employed an accountant to keep it all in line and keep the IRS off of me. I would not do it again.... America takes the fun out of being an entreaprenuor (SP). In Thailand, if you can push a cart, and are Thai, you can start a business!

For the life of me, I do not know why Thailand is so scared of forieng investment. China allowed it, next thing you know they got America by the Ba**s.

Edited May 13, 2007 by Dakhar

[Austhaied]

@Austhaied: knityourownpubes.com? It doesn't exist - and if it did and the Thai authorities knew about that and your link to it they would probably deport you post haste.

Really ?? No..

[kmart]

@Austhaied: knityourownpubes.com? It doesn't exist - and if it did and the Thai authorities knew about that and your link to it they would probably deport you post haste.

Really ?? No..

A bit pedantic, isn't he?

[rychrde]

I feel that part of the problem is that the Chinese who have colonized Thailand don't want to have to compete on a level playing field... thus they make it hard for non-asians to get ahead.

I may or may not spend the rest of my life here... haven't decided. The four families that I support by employing them a wages at least three time what they'd make anywhere else will suffer. But I'm sure the gov is ok with that if they can get rid of a farang. Trust me, I will make it my life's work to expose the facts about the Land of Smiles. I've got enough info for a book already, complete with tons of photos.

Land of Smiles.... yeah, as long as your wallet is open!

Was just gonna say, read other topics, and especially the informative links and I feel the real pattern emerges. Many feel Thailand turning into Burma - I feel it is turning into China. 90% of middle class are Chinese descent, as is a large portion of the 'thai' elite. The restrictions on information distribution and operating conditions are steering quite plainly in that direction. Burma is, anyway, supported by China and Thailand.

It is worth looking at the big picture, just to make plans - plans A, B and C needed. Anyone with an investment here, either financial or emotional, needs to think through these and certainly revise them as new laws are made. It is also worth writing down why you are here, why you perhaps don't want to go back to your homeland. Do you feel you have a homeland?

As Click says, Western nations have been robbing their citizens for centuries and do it mercilessly but quietly and (in most cases) legally. Here the gov is a joke. Most of the Thais I speak to here think the same - LOS Gov is FOS. Only those thais linked to current regime voice their support. Unlike in Europe, political discussions do not lead to arguments as this could be detrimental to one's health, so there is a silent simmering discontent.

So what to do? Spending some time in the West with your family, if feasible may be good. Will also give your child a cosmopolitanism sorely lacking here. A friend of mine has just done that, back to Europe for one or two years with family. Yes, taxes suck, but that depends on your job too.

Alternatives? I looked at Panama a couple of years ago, just when they too raised their min deposit for residence visa. But in Panama can get retirement visa at the min age of 19! true. Costa Rica also nice. Caribbean islands also easy for some of us. Maybe a thread of 'Where Else?' could be started. Doesn't have to be 'anti-thai', its just the reality of being an expat. Before anybody wants to complain of 'thai-bashing' just re-read slowly. With my own background I can easily claim citizenship of four diff countries if I chose to. 'Home' is wherever I choose to be, but nowhere is there a homeland.

Oh and btw, I wonder if the original thread question is ambiguous. Everyone's experiences suggests the thai gov and the thai people have different attitudes, and agendas. OK, the Thai gov is also composed of people (I assume so) but they are playing a different game to the average Thai.

good luckwith your choices

rych

[Luckydog]

I have yet to find a country that REALLY likes Foreigners.

They only say they do when they need either your expertise of your money....

[Dakhar]

I feel sorry for the OP's wife with a child of one month that the father doesn't want brought up as Thai and a totally uncertain future.

The OP needs to look at the bright side. In my villlage, it is full of relatives.... pratically everyone is related. Now my son gets to have tons of role models, and every male in the village excludeing his father is unemployed. The males lay in a hamok all day. Now they do stress a little trying to decide if they should get up and switch the channel, but usually the more imediate decission is.... "Do I swat the fly, or just let him do his thing." Now their wife's and daughters work, usually selling food or something of that nature. So life as a male Thai aint that bad at all. He will thank you latter for it.

So hey, when in Rome..... my wife recently offered to continue working and allow me to quit my job. We would still be over the 40K limit.... To be honest I gave it at least 20 seconds of thought.