Cold Calling In Thailand

[RusT]

As a first time investor in my mid twenties I made a big mistake getting involved with Royal Skandia through a broker in the Philippines. The guy was an established so-called "financial advisor" and had a number of expatriate clients (and still does surprisingly). Short story is that he set me up with a 25 year policy with Royal Skandia that required a ridiculous yearly contribution from me without my knowledge. When I found out what he had done it was too late and I was penalised from Royal Skandia a huge sum which I could not handle so I had no choice but to pull the plug. Royal Skandia as part of their arcane policy conditions penalised me 80% of my investment.

I have no one to blame except myself. I was young, naive and too trusting in a guy who I thought was reputable. A number of other people have been burnt this way.

Royal Skandia do have 5 year policy's and it may not be a bad thing to have a decent advisor guide you if it is your first investment. Just read your policy conditions very carefully and do not trust you advisor at face value (always check with Royal Skanida directly to confirm whatever he or she has told you) and whatever you do don't pull out before the 5 year policy term.

This being said however thesedays with the amount of information available on the internet and the proliferation of opportunities to invest directly in offshore funds (like HSBC) it makes more sense to do the homework and go solo rather than going through a broker and then Royal Skandia to get to the same funds.

At the end of the day nobody cares about your money like you do.

Just thought I'd share this in in case there is anyone out there thinking of going down the broker/Royal Skandia route.

[CymruAmByth]

As a first time investor in my mid twenties I made a big mistake getting involved with Royal Skandia through a broker in the Philippines. The guy was an established so-called "financial advisor" and had a number of expatriate clients (and still does surprisingly). Short story is that he set me up with a 25 year policy with Royal Skandia that required a ridiculous yearly contribution from me without my knowledge. When I found out what he had done it was too late and I was penalised from Royal Skandia a huge sum which I could not handle so I had no choice but to pull the plug. Royal Skandia as part of their arcane policy conditions penalised me 80% of my investment.

I have no one to blame except myself. I was young, naive and too trusting in a guy who I thought was reputable. A number of other people have been burnt this way.

Royal Skandia do have 5 year policy's and it may not be a bad thing to have a decent advisor guide you if it is your first investment. Just read your policy conditions very carefully and do not trust you advisor at face value (always check with Royal Skanida directly to confirm whatever he or she has told you) and whatever you do don't pull out before the 5 year policy term.

This being said however thesedays with the amount of information available on the internet and the proliferation of opportunities to invest directly in offshore funds (like HSBC) it makes more sense to do the homework and go solo rather than going through a broker and then Royal Skandia to get to the same funds.

At the end of the day nobody cares about your money like you do.

Just thought I'd share this in in case there is anyone out there thinking of going down the broker/Royal Skandia route.

A good post. There is a Skandia product masquerading as a "Managed Pension Account" (MPA). There is no such thing as an offshore pension!

However, and not to tar all the Life Assurance products with the same brush, financial products have progressed over time in the same manner cars, mobile phones etc have. The customer is now more able to select exactly what fits their needs.

I feel sorry you got burned with Skandia, a lot of my friends have also. A good advisor will select the product that suits YOU the client, not one with ridiculous charging structures (al la Skandia) that pays the broker the most in up-front commissions.

I refer to my earlier Friends Provident International post, which attracts annual charges of only 6% p/a in the first 18 months (the lock-in period you mentioned that Skandia make you wait 5 years for) and after the initial 18 months the annual charges are only 1.2%.

Shop around folks...there are good products out there and good companies too!

[Jimjim]

Both US movies "Boiler Room" and "Pursuit of Happyness" were based on the success of "cold calling". As other posters have noted, this is not a Thai-specific phenomena.

What's your point? The cold calling Pursuit of Happyness is legit. I don't know about the other movie but it sounds like not.

The point is that many serious scammers set up shop in Thailand and to be aware of them. Don't fall for their BS.

[Misty]

I refer to my earlier Friends Provident International post, which attracts annual charges of only 6% p/a in the first 18 months (the lock-in period you mentioned that Skandia make you wait 5 years for) and after the initial 18 months the annual charges are only 1.2%.

Shop around folks...there are good products out there and good companies too!

Good advice to shop around. From my experience, offshore discount broker/fund supermarkets are big, well-regulated listed companies offering very competitive accounts in offshore tax havens. Fees are much lower than then mentioned above, and there's no lock-in period or lock-in fee. Investment choices are generally broader--a wider selection of well-known mutual funds offered, and I believe more importantly, easy ways to buy asset classes directly and far more cheaply. For those that like to invest in individual stocks, usually you get a trading function to a large number of stock exchanges around the world.

The only caveat is that you do have to shop around. The discount broker/fund supermarket should be a well-recognized name brand in a major well-regulated jurisdiction.

From what you've said you're happy with your FPI account, and that's fine of course. But it does sounds like you are particularly happy because of the return your received last year. Unfortunately I should mention that this return actually had little or nothing to do with FPI. If it did, then with an FPI account you should get that return year in and year out. It's just not possible to do this, and anyone that claims to should offer audited proof that their portfolio received that sort of return--(they won't be able to). Any one year's portfolio return being particularly good is a function of market & currency movements, and of luck. A portfolio's return over the long run (by this I mean five years or more), is a function of your selection in asset classes, less the fees you are paying (why it's so important to minimize these). But so sorry, I do not believe your last year's return is because of FPI (or any other single entity).

Incidently, why do you have to pay 6% p/a on initial investment to have your funds locked up for 18mos? So sorry, but I really can't see the point in that. A bit curious who's getting that money--the salesman in Thailand, or is FPI?

Cheers, Misty

Edited May 31, 2007 by Misty

[CymruAmByth]

I refer to my earlier Friends Provident International post, which attracts annual charges of only 6% p/a in the first 18 months (the lock-in period you mentioned that Skandia make you wait 5 years for) and after the initial 18 months the annual charges are only 1.2%.

Shop around folks...there are good products out there and good companies too!

Good advice to shop around. From my experience, offshore discount broker/fund supermarkets are big, well-regulated listed companies offering very competitive accounts in offshore tax havens. Fees are much lower than then mentioned above, and there's no lock-in period or lock-in fee. Investment choices are generally broader--a wider selection of well-known mutual funds offered, and I believe more importantly, easy ways to buy asset classes directly and far more cheaply. For those that like to invest in individual stocks, usually you get a trading function to a large number of stock exchanges around the world.

The only caveat is that you do have to shop around. The discount broker/fund supermarket should be a well-recognized name brand in a major well-regulated jurisdiction.

From what you've said you're happy with your FPI account, and that's fine of course. But it does sounds like you are particularly happy because of the return your received last year. Unfortunately I should mention that this return actually had little or nothing to do with FPI. If it did, then with an FPI account you should get that return year in and year out. It's just not possible to do this, and anyone that claims to should offer audited proof that their portfolio received that sort of return--(they won't be able to). Any one year's portfolio return being particularly good is a function of market & currency movements, and of luck. A portfolio's return over the long run (by this I mean five years or more), is a function of your selection in asset classes, less the fees you are paying (why it's so important to minimize these). But so sorry, I do not believe your last year's return is because of FPI (or any other single entity).

Incidently, why do you have to pay 6% p/a on initial investment to have your funds locked up for 18mos? So sorry, but I really can't see the point in that. A bit curious who's getting that money--the salesman in Thailand, or is FPI?

Cheers, Misty

To cut a long story short (and after much research) I was happy that the 149 Fund Managers employed by FPI were "best in class". It is one thing going to an individual company (Credit Suisse, UBS, Morgan Stanley) but why not use a company (FPI) that has selected the best funds from these company's and if there is a small % fee for the initial 18 months, then so be it.

Additionally, maybe you should check the fee structures from these 'big boys', you might be surprised, especially when requesting an encashment from them.

As for the initial lock-in period of 18 months, what is wrong with that? The investment is a medium to long term one and I am quite prepared to leave the initial 18 months worth of units in the plan (especially as they worked at 37% last year!!) Where would you suggest I put it? In a nice bank at 1% per annum?

As I previously mentioned, I incurred a 6% pa fund management fee for the intial 18 months, I agree. However, FPI offered me an additional 17.5% additional unit allocation for this period thus wiping out the 6% completely.

As for the 37% level of growth last year, you will see from my previous post that I mentioned a quite unique and innovative online monitoring system. I am not going to explain it in full here as it would spoil a lot of peoples fun in setting up spurious restaurant meetings they have no intention of attending. However, of course FPI's fund managers contributed towards the growth I received. As I previously mentioned, I was content with the plan from the outset as I researched their fund managers historical performance.

This, coupled with an automated profit/loss online alert system (I can be on the golf course and still get alerts) has made this a wonderful opportunity for continued growth.

Lastly, I never expect anyone to do anything for free! The person that spent hours with me assessing my needs deserves to earn a decent living. You dont think the boys at large investment houses aren't taking some of their clients money to suppliment their salary??? especially with some of their unnecessary portfolio balancing tricks when the markets are on a downturn??

I am always amazed when people begrudge others a living (seems more prevalent when discussing personal finances) especially when they do a good job every now and then!

[soundman]

6% management fee sounds a little high. 1.5 - 2.5% portfolio mangement fees are what I am lead to believe are the norm. Especially for lower risk portfolios.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[CymruAmByth]

6% management fee sounds a little high. 1.5 - 2.5% portfolio mangement fees are what I am lead to believe are the norm. Especially for lower risk portfolios.

Cheers,

Soundman.

Agreed, if you are in the $200,000+ lump sum range, it can be as low as 1%.

Edited May 31, 2007 by CymruAmByth

[soundman]

Has anybody come accross any Thai financial management (or inter. firms such as a JB Were type company with Thai offices) firms with a reasonable track record with their portfolios?

Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanx,

Soundman.

[RusT]

Has anybody come accross any Thai financial management (or inter. firms such as a JB Were type company with Thai offices) firms with a reasonable track record with their portfolios?

Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanx,

Soundman.

Sorry can't help you there soundman. The ones I have met are usually just pushing one or two products on commission. There is a company called Cleaving & Cleaving (I believe that's the name) who will offer to manage your portfolio on a flat fee basis meaning they're not working on commission. Their fees are quite high though (too high for me) but it's a refreshing to have the option of someone who will give you unbiased advice on everything in the market rather than just a handful of commission based firms that other brokers operate with.

While we're at it, does anyone know if it is possible for a non-US citizen to set up a Vanguard Index Fund and if so are there any witholding tax implications? I would like to diversify and set aside a small amount on such a fund and Vanguard seem to have a good track record. If anyone has any ideas on how to go about this it would be highly apreciated.

[soundman]

Sorry can't help you there soundman. The ones I have met are usually just pushing one or two products on commission. There is a company called Cleaving & Cleaving (I believe that's the name) who will offer to manage your portfolio on a flat fee basis meaning they're not working on commission. Their fees are quite high though (too high for me) but it's a refreshing to have the option of someone who will give you unbiased advice on everything in the market rather than just a handful of commission based firms that other brokers operate with.

While we're at it, does anyone know if it is possible for a non-US citizen to set up a Vanguard Index Fund and if so are there any witholding tax implications? I would like to diversify and set aside a small amount on such a fund and Vanguard seem to have a good track record. If anyone has any ideas on how to go about this it would be highly apreciated.

Thanx for that Rus T.

Basically I'm looking for a low - medium risk fund that you really don't have to keep an eye on and you can contribute 2000B - 5000B per month & just let it sit there & do it's thing. Heaps of those in Australia, but I was just wondering if there were any locally.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[Khun ?]

There is a company that writes articles in one of Pattaya newspaper done the same thing to several people.

Many of the Generali funds they put people in lost much of the funds money and went out of business in just a few years. When their salesmen were told they would give it a go for 3 to 5 years and if they did not like it they would close their accounts.

The salesmen said no problem would be plenty of money there at that time to close out if they did not like it.

7+% front end load plus high expense fees for operating the fund also. They don't even send their clients annual reports on how the investments performed for each year. How many front end load funds do you know that you cannot sell off at any time without penalty? After all that is why there is a front end load to start with

so you can sell at any time. ( what a scam)

These are very high expensive variable annuties at best if not illegal in most regulated markets.

Stay away from unregulated people and companies is the best advice one could take.

Why do you think they are not working back home where they could make great money but have to live

with requlations and laws.

As a first time investor in my mid twenties I made a big mistake getting involved with Royal Skandia through a broker in the Philippines. The guy was an established so-called "financial advisor" and had a number of expatriate clients (and still does surprisingly). Short story is that he set me up with a 25 year policy with Royal Skandia that required a ridiculous yearly contribution from me without my knowledge. When I found out what he had done it was too late and I was penalised from Royal Skandia a huge sum which I could not handle so I had no choice but to pull the plug. Royal Skandia as part of their arcane policy conditions penalised me 80% of my investment.

I have no one to blame except myself. I was young, naive and too trusting in a guy who I thought was reputable. A number of other people have been burnt this way.

Royal Skandia do have 5 year policy's and it may not be a bad thing to have a decent advisor guide you if it is your first investment. Just read your policy conditions very carefully and do not trust you advisor at face value (always check with Royal Skanida directly to confirm whatever he or she has told you) and whatever you do don't pull out before the 5 year policy term.

This being said however thesedays with the amount of information available on the internet and the proliferation of opportunities to invest directly in offshore funds (like HSBC) it makes more sense to do the homework and go solo rather than going through a broker and then Royal Skandia to get to the same funds.

At the end of the day nobody cares about your money like you do.

Just thought I'd share this in in case there is anyone out there thinking of going down the broker/Royal Skandia route.

[Khun ?]

They take a front load and then give you a bonus. Sounds like a scam, you need to check the hidden fund management fee's and you will probably be very surprised where this bonus is coming from.

Do you know many funds have added expenses such as management bonus, pension fee's, insurance and

what not over the normal 1 to 2% management fee. You really have to dig to figure out exactly what extra fee's and kick backs that these unregulated brokers/salesmen get and the fee's that are hidden in garbled

language in the 100 page prosepectus. Watch out for them pushing hedge fund investments, if you cannot get

into a fund on your own most likely better not to be in it through 3rd and forth teir means that each teir gets a cut before you will even get invested plus they will get cuts on any gains they produce.

Look for top managers and go directly to their funds. No middle men is the best way to do it.

Google top fund managers or look at morningstar ratings and many other sites, top fund picks.

It is a changing world but basics are still there for the most part.

As a first time investor in my mid twenties I made a big mistake getting involved with Royal Skandia through a broker in the Philippines. The guy was an established so-called "financial advisor" and had a number of expatriate clients (and still does surprisingly). Short story is that he set me up with a 25 year policy with Royal Skandia that required a ridiculous yearly contribution from me without my knowledge. When I found out what he had done it was too late and I was penalised from Royal Skandia a huge sum which I could not handle so I had no choice but to pull the plug. Royal Skandia as part of their arcane policy conditions penalised me 80% of my investment.

I have no one to blame except myself. I was young, naive and too trusting in a guy who I thought was reputable. A number of other people have been burnt this way.

Royal Skandia do have 5 year policy's and it may not be a bad thing to have a decent advisor guide you if it is your first investment. Just read your policy conditions very carefully and do not trust you advisor at face value (always check with Royal Skanida directly to confirm whatever he or she has told you) and whatever you do don't pull out before the 5 year policy term.

This being said however thesedays with the amount of information available on the internet and the proliferation of opportunities to invest directly in offshore funds (like HSBC) it makes more sense to do the homework and go solo rather than going through a broker and then Royal Skandia to get to the same funds.

At the end of the day nobody cares about your money like you do.

Just thought I'd share this in in case there is anyone out there thinking of going down the broker/Royal Skandia route.

A good post. There is a Skandia product masquerading as a "Managed Pension Account" (MPA). There is no such thing as an offshore pension!

However, and not to tar all the Life Assurance products with the same brush, financial products have progressed over time in the same manner cars, mobile phones etc have. The customer is now more able to select exactly what fits their needs.

I feel sorry you got burned with Skandia, a lot of my friends have also. A good advisor will select the product that suits YOU the client, not one with ridiculous charging structures (al la Skandia) that pays the broker the most in up-front commissions.

I refer to my earlier Friends Provident International post, which attracts annual charges of only 6% p/a in the first 18 months (the lock-in period you mentioned that Skandia make you wait 5 years for) and after the initial 18 months the annual charges are only 1.2%.

Shop around folks...there are good products out there and good companies too!

[Khun ?]

Many offshore investments have fee's that will eliminate any tax savings you will get.

Unless you make 6 figures of income and investment gains your tax savings is to small at best and

will be eaten up on the performance by middlemen and hidden fund expenses.

You never hear any of these unregulated salesmen/brokers discuss how fee's negate any tax savings or effect it has on returns.

Vanguard funds that was mentioned is about the best thing I have heard on this issue so far.

Plenty others funds are great investments also even if they do have a load that you can directly invest in. Taxes should never be a reason to not sell a stock or fund.

[quiksilva]

Both US movies "Boiler Room" and "Pursuit of Happyness" were based on the success of "cold calling". As other posters have noted, this is not a Thai-specific phenomena.

What's your point? The cold calling Pursuit of Happyness is legit.

Absolutely The Pursuit of Happyness was based on the true story of Chris Gardner, who interned at Dean Witter Reynolds and began his career there. This same firm eventually merged with a bigger player and went on to become known as Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, now known just as Morgan Stanley.

Cold calling is a legitimate pro active form of direct marketing, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a 1 minute call to introduce your firm and determine whether there is an opportunity to establish a business relationship.

The business practice described in the boiler room movie and the boys who got caught in Bangkok a few years back however is far from legitimate, but care should be taken not to confuse them with financial consultants selling genuine products / services.

[Khun ?]

Everyone needs a few middlemen to sell you someone elses funds that you can buy direct.

Oh yes they can get you a discount but forget about the hidden fee's it causes.

As you are purchasing from a unregulated person or firm all laws and regulations are gone also.

Why do you think the recent change from brokers to advisors. They do not qualify to local thai

standards even. If someone in Thailand is going to make you money with your money, they should of done it with their own and would not need to bother you and get their hands on your money.

[DarwinK]

Cold calling is a legitimate pro active form of direct marketing, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a 1 minute call to introduce your firm and determine whether there is an opportunity to establish a business relationship.

Agreed, although those doing the cold calling are really salesmen and not advisors or consultants. Salesmen sell products, advisors or consultants provide advice or a service. Doctors, accountants, lawyers--none of these will cold call you.

The business practice described in the boiler room movie and the boys who got caught in Bangkok a few years back however is far from legitimate, but care should be taken not to confuse them with financial consultants selling genuine products / services.

Also agreed. An important distinction is that while the products are legitimate, the salesmen are not. By being below the radar screen "offshore" they don't think they have to be regulated by anyone. But if one of them sells you a 25 year scheme, the scheme is legitimate--but the "advice" that it was appropriate for you was not. You lose a lot of money getting out of something genuine but totally inappropriate, and who will you turn to? Not the product provider, unfortunately. That's why regulation is so important-- to protect the consumer. I read that so-called investment advisors are supposed to be regulated by the Thai authorities, but my experience is that these salesmen "advisors" are not following the rules.

Edited June 1, 2007 by DarwinK

[Khun ?]

I like the 6% front load then 18 months later they give you 17% for joining their investment services.

Brokerage firms that make billions cannot do this but a fly by night little advisory company can.

I bet you get shares in units too, which makes it a little absract of what you really have.

[geronimo]

Does anyone else get pestered by these cold callers offering financial consulting services?

Since my name is in various business dirctories, I sometimes get several calls a month from different people selling offshore investments. Apparently, this business is "unregulated" in Thailand, but regulated in Hong Kong and Singapore, so the cowboys all flock here to Bangkok. Some of them can be pretty rude to secretaries screening the calls.

In my experience, they never have any specific product to discuss on the phone and they are always desperate to set up a face-to-face meeting. I'm just wondering what happens at such a meeting and whether it's a hard sell or not. I can see why some expats might want to invest offshore in their home country's currency but for those of us here permanently I don't see any advantage in investing offshore.

um I think they work in the boiler rooms don't they?

[cooperspale]

Does anyone else get pestered by these cold callers offering financial consulting services?

Since my name is in various business dirctories, I sometimes get several calls a month from different people selling offshore investments. Apparently, this business is "unregulated" in Thailand, but regulated in Hong Kong and Singapore, so the cowboys all flock here to Bangkok. Some of them can be pretty rude to secretaries screening the calls.

In my experience, they never have any specific product to discuss on the phone and they are always desperate to set up a face-to-face meeting. I'm just wondering what happens at such a meeting and whether it's a hard sell or not. I can see why some expats might want to invest offshore in their home country's currency but for those of us here permanently I don't see any advantage in investing offshore.

I have been to italian resturants before where the pasta hasnt been so good but that doesnt mean i dont eat pasta any more and it doesnt mean i dont go to other italian resturants anymore in search of better pasta....financial services is no different, there are plenty of organizations out there that are offering a good service but unfortuntaley there are also commission hungry organizatons looking for a quick buck which is tainting the industry.......you guys wanting to play games and waste some guys time by having him rock up to a meeting that you have no intention of attending is just pathetic..this act seems very childish ....and its guys like you who normally have no pension planning whatsoever and will be screwed in years to come...... some of the comments on the cold calls are correct, if the company have to push for a face to face meeting and cannot show you or give you any credible information over the phone then maybe you should be hanging up...why not give the guy on the other end of the phone the benefit of the doubt that he has something credible but on the same token make him prove it...i know of a few companys in bangkok who can show you their servies over the phone..one of which i am a client of....if the guy on the phone cannot convince you then dont take a meeting but if he can convince you otherwise they why not get off your high horse and listen to what they have to say..if it doesnt live up to your current service then dont change anything....if it is better than your current banking arrangements then you have options now and the initial call was well worth taking...as for these guys who are booking appointments and not showing up....how on earth did you get an expat position like you say you have when you are acting like a teenage boy ringing someones doorbell and running away before they answer it.....

as for the life companys like Royal Skandia, Friends Provident and Generali..there is nothing really wrong with their products, the problems can come by the broker selling you the wrong product and locking you into a long term contract savings plan that doesnt meet with your requirements...easy solution here - ask your broker to show you products that are non- contractual - many companys wont because they dont pay a big up front commission...these are probably not the companys you want to be talking to..

so to sum up, i agree the calls are annoying but lets give these guys a break...give them one minute to convince you otherwise and if they can then listen some more , if they cant convince you then let them know that their minute is up and hang up the phone

[camerata]

After making it clear to the latest company to call me that I am definitely not interested, they waited 2 weeks and then had some Asian babe with a sexy voice try to get me interested again. She was one of those cheerful "Have a great day!" types.

[Firefan]

Camerata; so when are you meeting her? Cheers!

[soundman]

After making it clear to the latest company to call me that I am definitely not interested, they waited 2 weeks and then had some Asian babe with a sexy voice try to get me interested again. She was one of those cheerful "Have a great day!" types.

Maybe that would be one appointment worth showing up to...

Cheers,

Soundman.

[Prakanong]

"you guys wanting to play games and waste some guys time by having him rock up to a meeting that you have no intention of attending is just pathetic..this act seems very childish "

Sorry mate these are cold callers in the same vein as doubl glazing salemen and the like.

If I want financial services I will go to my bank, sk freinds for recomendations and do sme of my own research and approach the company to ask them.

As for jimbob from Alabama or John from London who have just re-invented themselves as financial consultants after probably being laid off from timeshare selling they can go shit a brick as far as I am concerned and if they waste my time I might just waste theirs.

Now though I usually am saying not interested over their opening spiel - at least here in Singapore they know its the end of the conversation.

I have heard quite a few of these idiots spouting off around Bangkok and Singapore when not working and their knowledge of finance is pretty piss poor to say the least.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Prakanong

[camerata]

Camerata; so when are you meeting her? Cheers!

All she offered (so far) was a meeting with a senior consultant. Let's see what's on offer in 2 weeks time.

[ProfessorNiceGuy]

Camerata; so when are you meeting her? Cheers!

All she offered (so far) was a meeting with a senior consultant. Let's see what's on offer in 2 weeks time.

Ask her if she is into S&M ..... bet you will never hear from her again .

Edited June 19, 2007 by ProfessorNiceGuy