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Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application


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40 minutes ago, Arkady said:

My impression is that the documentary requirements for citizenship remained virtually unchanged for a few decades, apart from an increase to the required minimum salary from B7,000 to B80,000 around the early 20000s, whereas Immigration has been more dynamic and seems to enjoy thinking up new and more absurd ways to torment applicants for PR. Obviously applications for both are processed by departments at the MOI that have bosses in common, so it has always been only a matter of time before PR requirements started drifting over to the citizenship process, particularly since those with Thai wives no longer have to undergo the PR process first.

 

The first significant change to citizenship requirements was the addition of the declaration in 2009. Now they seem to have introduced a home country police clearance, whereas a Thai police clearance, which they did for themselves, used to be good enough.  I am now seeing that you need to submit a letter about yourself and how you met your wife (not unreasonable I admit, if applying on the basis of a Thai wife), even though the MOI has not bothered to add this or the home country police clearance to its still current 2009 guidelines.  Apart from the declaration, these ideas seem to come from the PR process, as does the concept of the multiple choice test which appeared in 2010.  

 

I applied for both PR and citizenship without being asked for a home country police clearance and my PR application took only a year which was normal at the time.  For PR I had to submit my employer's audited accounts but they were just certified by myself, as the authorised signatory.  Later I heard that people were being asked for accounts certified by the company's auditor.  For PR I have heard that applicants are asked to submit DNA tests for their Thai children and photographs of themselves sitting on the marital bed with their Thai wives, even though it makes zero difference to the application whether you have a Thai wife and kids or not.  One of my friends during his 5 year wait for PR even had someone snooping around his house unannounced and attempting  to interrogate his non-Thai speaking Burmese maid about his relationship with his Thai missus which was irrelevant to his application.  Since marital relationships are actually of significance to citizenship applications, it is probably only a matter of time before SB starts on the same tack.

 

At the time I applied for both PR and citizenship I thought the documentary requirements were a huge hassle, only to see them get worse.  The moral of this story is don't procrastinate.  My own procrastinations gave me the dubious honour of being the first declarer.  Just go for it as soon as you can.  It is guaranteed to get harder and the bureaucrats probably can't wait for this government to come to an end and let them go back to their nasty habit of making people wait for up 10 years or more for citizenship.   

 

 

   

Yes that's what I dread too. I got PR in 2015, so I will only be eligible in 2020, long after this government has come to an end. Must say that the people who got eligible during this government are so lucky, they get their applications fast tracked at rocket speed.

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22 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

Unfortunately many Thai charities are utterly corrupt. I had a rather obnoxious, well heeled colleague who liked to boast that he paid under the table to staff at a registered charity to issue receipts with face value 10x what he paid them under the table, in order to reduce his tax bill. The charity of course got nothing.  I am not suggesting you do that but you might find a charity that can be flexible about dating the receipts.  Otherwise, make a donation as soon as you can and ask SB how long you have to wait to season your donation before your can apply.  I would guess they will say only about 3 months but I could be wrong. 

 

SB only needs the receipts from charities, so there is no need to ask for letters from them as well but you can submit them, if you have them.  Anyone who has a lot of receipts going back years would be well advised to submit a summary and total to make it easier for the various reviewers of your file.  

Thank you. Will get working on that. I plan to bring what I have down to the SB soon and will have lots of questions for them.

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I want to let people know that the photo requirements listed in the English translation posted around page 150 are incorrect, or at least do not match the Thai language requirement checklist I picked up on Monday from the SB. The translation says 2 x 2 inch photos and 3 for spouse, but the Thai version says 2 x 2.5" photos and 6 for spouse.I don't know how the translation got the number of photos required wrong, but the 2 x 2.5" requirement in the Thai version spelled out 'half' (ครึ่ง), making it easy to miss if you were in a hurry.

 

 

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1 hour ago, qualtrough said:

I want to let people know that the photo requirements listed in the English translation posted around page 150 are incorrect, or at least do not match the Thai language requirement checklist I picked up on Monday from the SB. The translation says 2 x 2 inch photos and 3 for spouse, but the Thai version says 2 x 2.5" photos and 6 for spouse.I don't know how the translation got the number of photos required wrong, but the 2 x 2.5" requirement in the Thai version spelled out 'half' (ครึ่ง), making it easy to miss if you were in a hurry.

 

 

They just make it up as they feel like it. When we were in the office, one officer showed my wife another application with smaller photos for the wife. When we applied again with that size, he said to get different ones. Also, the bs  about getting things translated when not even required. helpful, my arse. There are a few old-school Thais there that are making things difficult.

 

Edited by MrPatrickThai
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1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

They just make it up as they feel like it. When we were in the office, one officer showed my wife another application with smaller photos for the wife. When we applied again with that size, he said to get different ones. Also, the bs  about getting things translated when not even required. helpful, my arse. There are a few old-school Thais there that are making things difficult.

 

1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

 

I don't think the English translation was done by the SB. I think somebody was just careless in translating the Thai version. That's what I was given and it clearly says 2 x 2.5 and 6 photos for the spouse. Having said that, there is a lot of contradictory info both within and without.

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1 minute ago, qualtrough said:

 

I don't think the English translation was done by the SB. I think somebody was just careless in translating the Thai version. That's what I was given and it clearly says 2 x 2.5 and 6 photos for the spouse. Having said that, there is a lot of contradictory info both within and without.

What I'm saying is that accepted different sizes for one applicant, yet told another they were no good.

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33 minutes ago, khongaeng said:

For other's reference my experience at NIA was a a simple review of my history.  I brought all of my original documents.  They wanted to see as many forms of ID that I had (PR (I didn't have because applying with Thai wife), Thai Driver's license, Passport, Marriage license, tax return (copy), salary letter from company, marriage license, birth certificates for children, name change (copy), thabian ban for me and family, and wife Thai ID card).

Thanks for the info.

So you got all the original docs back after you applied in the first place?

I wonder if my Tabien Baan not being the same as my wife's will cause a problem.

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2 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

They just make it up as they feel like it. When we were in the office, one officer showed my wife another application with smaller photos for the wife. When we applied again with that size, he said to get different ones. Also, the bs  about getting things translated when not even required. helpful, my arse. There are a few old-school Thais there that are making things difficult.

 

 

That's very sad. Re translations I was told by my officer that this sort of stuff depended on the current director at SB and that the director at that time was very jai dee, which he certainly was.  That meant, for example, that he was happy with a certified translator's stamp on translations of educational certificates and didn't want them notarised by MoFA.  No requirement to translate passport, unlike the Immigration officer in the PR section at CW who once asked me to pay her B1,000 unreceipted to translate the details of my passport and avoid having to come back another day.    

 

In the latter part of my 5-year citizenship application, a singularly unpleasant young shaven-headed cop, a captain with connections on his way up, took over as head of the downstairs room (for naturalisation but there is another room upstairs for women adopting hubby's Thai nationality) but was not the director who is in charge of both rooms and is, I think, a major-general, believe it or not.  The captain tried to make waves and cause trouble for applicants and officers but luckily was transferred somewhere else after a year.  It does sound as some real smucks have moved in and perhaps the current director is also in that category.   Being perneckity in demanding all i's are dotted and all t's crossed is one thing but giving contradictory and misleading information out of either ignorance or disdain for applicants is obnoxious.  Like everything else it will pass but is a pain for those who have to deal with it. 

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I will be submitting my citizenship documents next week at the council. How long does it take to get a Thai National ID card? From the information we reveived it looks like it could take a month to move my name from a yellow book to a blue book before I can get the ID card. Is that correct?

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I will be submitting my citizenship documents next week at the council. How long does it take to get a Thai National ID card? From the information we reveived it looks like it could take a month to move my name from a yellow book to a blue book before I can get the ID card. Is that correct?

Getting your Thai ID can AFAIK not be done by walk-in. You might need to make an appointment. Your amphur most probably has received your documents from the MOI already. First you'll be registered in the blue house registration. The holder must be there with you. Subsequently you apply for and will recieve your Thai ID. In all, the whole proces might take up to 4 hours.
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8 hours ago, khongaeng said:

GabbaGabbaHey, it looks like we are at approximately the same stage of the process.  I interviewed with the NIA a few weeks ago after initially submitting my application in June.  I called SB recently and was told that they still have not received my documents back from all of the other government agencies yet.  I would be curious to hear back from you when you get your appointment to MOI (I will also post) to add a more recent data point.  Some of the people posting earlier in this thread said they had multiple year waiting between NIA interview and MOI.  I hope that our wait is only multiple months :-)

 

For other's reference my experience at NIA was a a simple review of my history.  I brought all of my original documents.  They wanted to see as many forms of ID that I had (PR (I didn't have because applying with Thai wife), Thai Driver's license, Passport, Marriage license, tax return (copy), salary letter from company, marriage license, birth certificates for children, name change (copy), thabian ban for me and family, and wife Thai ID card).  My wife also had to come along.  We met in the cafeteria of the Ministry of Education (not air conditioned).  Apparently their offices at SB are under construction until middle of 2018.  The interviewer just asked my wife and I to review our history together, etc.  The same type of questions that have been asked by SB when application was submitted.  Not stressful at all.  They only meet with people on Wednesdays, and seem to complete 1 person every 20 minutes.  There were 3 interviewers interview with 3 different applicants at the time.  

- If you submitted in June, I think you're more advanced than me in the "120 days investigation phase" and your file should be sent to MOI earlier than me. I just submitted early September, I don't expect it to be sent before end of January 2018 (but I'd welcome any surprise). Anyway, I plan to visit SB regularly to track which information is missing.

 

- "I hope that our wait is only multiple months " -Me too.

 

- NIA: I just had the interview and the same experience as you describe, same place, friendly and relaxed, although some documents you mention were not asked to me due to the lack of time. It took 45 minutes in total and there were people queuing after. My recommendation to anyone regarding this interview: don't forget things like your wife passport, bring a copy of the company letter with the salary, bring a copy of your Thai name registration, a copy of your history letter may help as well (it saved time when they asked the spelling of my birthplace, university....) which means, and this is a recommendation I'd give to any applicant, make sure you keep a copy of any document or certificate you provide to SB (especially the Thai translations), because it might be asked to you during later stages.

 

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8 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Thanks for the info.

So you got all the original docs back after you applied in the first place?

I wonder if my Tabien Baan not being the same as my wife's will cause a problem.

No, but to clarify, you never give any original document (like passeport, alien book, work permit, tabian ban, university degree...) you may show them but you always keep them. However you should keep a copy of any ad hoc document passed to SB (company salary letter, Thai name registration, letter introducing yourself, degree...).  

Edited by GabbaGabbaHey
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9 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

No, but to clarify, you never give any original document (like passeport, alien book, work permit, tabian ban, university degree...) you may show them but you always keep them. However you should keep a copy of any ad hoc document passed to SB (company salary letter, Thai name registration, letter introducing yourself, degree...).  

In my experience SB kept the originals of the following documents when I submitted my application:

3 Years tax returns

Company tax return (I am a co-owner)

Letter of intent to give of previous citizenship from embassy (and translation)

Documents from Amphoe certifying my marriage registration was valid

Letter from embassy about criminal record (and translation)

Letter from embassy about validity of passport (and translation)

Letter from embassy about education (and translation)

Company salary letter

Thai name registration

They didn't ask for a a letter introducing myself when I submitted my application

 

As a side note, none of the above-mentioned documents needed to be certified by the MOI.  I'm not sure if the policy has somehow changed in the past 4 months, but they did not require any documents.  My only MOI certified document is my marriage license from overseas, but I did that years ago to get registered in a Thabian Ban and get a marriage visa.  I'm not sure if that would have been required from my nationality application.

 

GabbaGabbaHey, do you know if the 120 day waiting period is set in stone, or at least somewhat closely followed currently?  Because that would be great news.  My 120 days should be up in the next few weeks.  When I called SB a couple of weeks ago, they made it sound like it would be months before my application is sent to Mahadthai (MOI).

 

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18 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Thanks for the info.

So you got all the original docs back after you applied in the first place?

I wonder if my Tabien Baan not being the same as my wife's will cause a problem.

My Tabien Baan is different from my wife (so that I could apply in Bangkok).  Not a problem.  I was even coached by the SB officer what I should say if I was asked, saying things like it is for business convenience reasons, etc.  NIA asked me why we were registered differently, but put my "residence" address the same as my wife without much discussion.  I'm not sure if this will create difficulties for me later on, but so far it has not been an issue. 

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20 minutes ago, khongaeng said:

GabbaGabbaHey, do you know if the 120 day waiting period is set in stone, or at least somewhat closely followed currently?  Because that would be great news.  My 120 days should be up in the next few weeks.  When I called SB a couple of weeks ago, they made it sound like it would be months before my application is sent to Mahadthai (MOI).

 

No, the board just says "around 120 days". During that time I plan to keep regular contact with SB asking what is missing, because I feel once you reach 120 days and your file is complete, it should't take that long to be sent to MOI (in theory).

 

 

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1 hour ago, khongaeng said:

As a side note, none of the above-mentioned documents needed to be certified by the MOI.  I'm not sure if the policy has somehow changed in the past 4 months, but they did not require any documents.  My only MOI certified document is my marriage license from overseas, but I did that years ago to get registered in a Thabian Ban and get a marriage visa.  I'm not sure if that would have been required from my nationality application.

On my side, nobody asked for document legalization, but based on my assumptions that most of the process is about documents verification I found more confidence in building a solid application with official seals on key documents. I did these steps on my own interpretation of what could be ideally expected:

 

Translation certified by embassy plus embassy signature certified by Dpt of Consular affairs:
- Marriage record / Education degree / Letter of intent / No conviction record

 

Certified true copy by embassy plus embassy signature certified by Dpt of Consular affairs
- Passport main page

 

I know it's no guarantee this will speed up my application ("more is less" sometimes), but at least I feel better as -I think- I'm giving myself the maximum chances I can before the final steps where I'll have no control. At the end of the day, I think it's important for you to feel comfortable with the process and what documents you're providing. 
 

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2 hours ago, khongaeng said:

My Tabien Baan is different from my wife (so that I could apply in Bangkok).  Not a problem.  I was even coached by the SB officer what I should say if I was asked, saying things like it is for business convenience reasons, etc.  NIA asked me why we were registered differently, but put my "residence" address the same as my wife without much discussion.  I'm not sure if this will create difficulties for me later on, but so far it has not been an issue. 

Thanks for the reassurance!

 

My latest -  the SB have received the extra extra requested documents and are checking them. Seemingly, I and my wife will have to make an appointment(if all in order) to see SB, but 5 officers have to be present. Is this what happened to you? i thought it would be a simple case of handing them and signing something. So, according to the officer, we'll have to wait until 5 officers have free time!

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1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Thanks for the reassurance!

 

My latest -  the SB have received the extra extra requested documents and are checking them. Seemingly, I and my wife will have to make an appointment(if all in order) to see SB, but 5 officers have to be present. Is this what happened to you? i thought it would be a simple case of handing them and signing something. So, according to the officer, we'll have to wait until 5 officers have free time!

 

Never heard of this requirement which must be some new nonsense the current team have thought up to inconvenience applicants. 

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4 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 

Never heard of this requirement which must be some new nonsense the current team have thought up to inconvenience applicants. 

I am so glad it is over for me. The officers that were there when I applied were exceedingly helpful and made things feel quite easy. Many of the documents now needing certification did not require it then. My educational certificates were simply translated and stamped by a translation office. That was enough. No need for the embassy to endorse them. No criminal record check. No letter as to my background or why I was applying. I think only three documents needed to be endorsed by the embassy, namely copy of passport, declaration about my parents and a letter of intention to renounce my citizenship.  Sometimes there was only one or two officers there when I visited the office. All rather informal. Okay, I did need to correct one or two things, but it was done in a way that was friendly.  

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53 minutes ago, GarryP said:

I am so glad it is over for me. The officers that were there when I applied were exceedingly helpful and made things feel quite easy. Many of the documents now needing certification did not require it then. My educational certificates were simply translated and stamped by a translation office. That was enough. No need for the embassy to endorse them. No criminal record check. No letter as to my background or why I was applying. I think only three documents needed to be endorsed by the embassy, namely copy of passport, declaration about my parents and a letter of intention to renounce my citizenship.  Sometimes there was only one or two officers there when I visited the office. All rather informal. Okay, I did need to correct one or two things, but it was done in a way that was friendly.  

My experience was about the same.  I foolishly got a certification from the embassy that I had reached the age of majority which had the vice-consul falling about laughing but found later out from SB this was not needed, despite being listed in the guidelines before I trundled off to get the translation of it MoFA notarised.  I found out then that it was better to ask them first.   

 

Now that they have followed the PR process in demanding that educational certificates should be embassy certified, Americans will have a problem because US embassies and consulates are not allowed to have anything whatsoever to do with US educational certificates on the sensible grounds that they have no way of knowing they are genuine or not and don't want to give the appearance of endorsing certificates that may be fake.  Americans are supposed to get them certified by the granting institution in the US and then, I think, further endorsed by a Thai embassy or consulate in the US in addition to the usual rigmarole of certified translation and notarisation. 

 

I think the British Embassy and others may still be happy certifying that the copy is a true copy of the original without offering an opinion as to whether the original is genuine or not.   Even though this certification is clearly useless, Thai authorities like anything covered in official looking stamps and signatures. I guess it will only be a matter of time before other farang embassies will follow the US lead and refuse to certify copies of anything they have no means of knowing is genuine, or that Thai authorities will figure out the certifications are useless.  The latter happened with the pension verifications for retirement extensions made by the British Embassy which Immigration found out were not verified but simply numbers given verbally by the retirees to the British consular staff in exchange for a fee. So they then demanded proper documentary evidence of the incomes.

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On 8/24/2017 at 7:20 AM, MrPatrickThai said:

Arkady

my understanding for the a USA diploma is to get it translated and go to the us embassy and make a sworn affidavit attesting to the diploma details. Take the affidavit to get translated then to the moi for a stamp.

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2 minutes ago, yankee99 said:

Arkady

my understanding for the a USA diploma is to get it translated and go to the us embassy and make a sworn affidavit attesting to the diploma details. Take the affidavit to get translated then to the moi for a stamp.

That's good if the US has come up with a work around.  An American friend who applied for PR a few years ago was forced to go through the convoluted  process described above to get US certificates accepted.  

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1 hour ago, yankee99 said:

Arkady

my understanding for the a USA diploma is to get it translated and go to the us embassy and make a sworn affidavit attesting to the diploma details. Take the affidavit to get translated then to the moi for a stamp.

I used Siam translation on Ploenjit Road. No need for embassy or MOF. Their stamps seems to be good enough. They sent it to my house in Isarn too. 600 b a page.

Edited by MrPatrickThai
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Two questions if I may:

 

1. For the 80,000 baht deposit requirement, I assume some kind of long term deposit is required. Is that correct? Any advice on that front?

 

2. I have lived with my wife in the house we built when we got married in 1996 (in Thailand)  but am not on the Tabian Bahn. Is that necessary for a citizenship app?

Edited by qualtrough
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1 hour ago, qualtrough said:

1. For the 80,000 baht deposit requirement, I assume some kind of long term deposit is required. Is that correct? Any advice on that front?

I don't think so. I just went to my bank headquarter in Bangkok with my saving book, they have a desk for certification letters, it took about 20 minutes to issue the letter. Just make sure you ask them to issue (in Thai) "at the attention of + Special Branch address". There's a post from Arkady that gives more details on this.

Edited by GabbaGabbaHey
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1 hour ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

I don't think so. I just went to my bank headquarter in Bangkok with my saving book, they have a desk for certification letters, it took about 20 minutes to issue the letter. Just make sure you ask them to issue (in Thai) "at the attention of + Special Branch address". There's a post from Arkady that gives more details on this.

Thank you!

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1 hour ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

I don't think so. I just went to my bank headquarter in Bangkok with my saving book, they have a desk for certification letters, it took about 20 minutes to issue the letter. Just make sure you ask them to issue (in Thai) "at the attention of + Special Branch address". There's a post from Arkady that gives more details on this.

๋ีJust dug up Arkady's post on that. He says just need to show 80,000 on the day of the letter and be sure to put down the SB address. I got the address below from the brochure they handed me, so that's what I will use unless otherwise corrected.

 

งานแปลงสัญชาติเป็นไทย ฝ่ายกฏหมายและวินย

กองบังคับการอำนวยการ กองบัญชาการตำรวจสันติบาล

อาคาร 6  สำนักงานตำรวจแห่งชาติ ถนนพระราม 1

แขวงปทุมวัน เขตปทุมวัน กรุงเทพมหานคร 10330

 

 

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1 hour ago, qualtrough said:

๋ีJust dug up Arkady's post on that. He says just need to show 80,000 on the day of the letter and be sure to put down the SB address. I got the address below from the brochure they handed me, so that's what I will use unless otherwise corrected.

That's what I have on my letter "เรียน +  this address", except they truncated a bit of line 3 to fit in the space.

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