Thai To Replace Ageing Fleet

Kaysfeld · June 7, 2007

Thai Airways fleet Age is 10.7 years according to airfleets.net

Details of the calculation based on supported aircraft

Aircraft Type Number Age Rank for the age per each aircraft type

Airbus A300 20 15.6 years On 45 airlines operating this aircraft Thai Airways is number 14

Airbus A330 12 11 years On 64 airlines operating this aircraft Thai Airways is number 61

Airbus A340 8 1.9 years On 52 airlines operating this aircraft Thai Airways is number 3

ATR 42/72 1 17.3 years On 115 airlines operating this aircraft Thai Airways is number 86

Boeing 737 6 11.1 years On 311 airlines operating this aircraft Thai Airways is number 18

Boeing 747 20 11.9 years On 104 airlines operating this aircraft Thai Airways is number 21

Boeing 777 18 7.2 years On 38 airlines operating this aircraft Thai Airways is number 23

Total 85 10.7 years

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Thai%20Airways.htm

tw25rw · June 8, 2007

As they already fly A330s and A340s, wouldn't it make sense to opt for A350s over the 787?

Not that sense will be the main driver in the decision proces..

chaam · June 8, 2007

If you want to fly direct to BKK from the UK as far as i'm aware there are only 4 choices,BA/Qantas,Eva & Thai.Well i've flown with all of them over the years and despite, as some people have stated,Thai's ageing fleet of aircraft,they are still in my opinion by far the best of the direct carriers.It's all very well having seat back TV's but if half of the functions on these systems don't work,what good are they to you!

I must add however,i always travel in economy so i cannot comment on Business /First class facilities.In flight meals and service are 2nd to none.I only travel to Thailand annually with my family but we have never once experienced delays,perhaps i've just been fortunate.

Booked with Thai again for September and really looking forward to the trip!

tw25rw · June 8, 2007

For value for money and convenience of schedule Lon-BKK, they can't be beaten.. That also goes for SYD-BKK.

I want to fly business next time I go to Syd via BKK and Thai are the best option.

Etihad seem to have a better service and their business class is as good as BA, but the schedule not as good. They are cheaper though.

Soju · June 9, 2007

As they already fly A330s and A340s, wouldn't it make sense to opt for A350s over the 787?
Not that sense will be the main driver in the decision proces..

Based on what sort of reasoning? Because the A330's, A340's and A350's are all made by Airbus? Well TG also flies lots of B777's, B747's and B737's, so in that case they should also buy a bunch of B787's.

cdnvic · June 9, 2007

With over 500 787s on order it may be faster to get the A350s. That's what Bangkok Airways opted for.

Edited June 9, 2007 by cdnvic

tw25rw · June 9, 2007

As they already fly A330s and A340s, wouldn't it make sense to opt for A350s over the 787?
Not that sense will be the main driver in the decision proces..

Based on what sort of reasoning? Because the A330's, A340's and A350's are all made by Airbus? Well TG also flies lots of B777's, B747's and B737's, so in that case they should also buy a bunch of B787's.

Based on the fact that they have largely the same cockpits and pilot retraining is minimal, whereas the listed Boeings don't.

Trevor · June 16, 2007

Just flew LHR-BKK on a newer Thai 747. Arrived on time. Very quiet economy cabin -- engines seemed well balanced, and the plane was clean and well-maintained. Perfect landing. Cabin crew good. Even brought my diabetic meal without asking after I changed seats to avoid 3 noisy UK-Pakistanis who insisted on laughing and joking loudly whilst all around them were asleep. Cost was £590 return. Thai allows changes of return date without charge. EVA and Emirates charge. For £34 more I could have gone EVA, leaving LHR at the same time. Only really worth it if seat-back entertainment is important to you.

Kaysfeld · June 20, 2007

PARIS 2007: Thai firms A330 order 20. june 2007

Thai Airways International has placed an order for eight Airbus A330-300s for delivery from next year, firming up plans which it disclosed earlier this year.

In February the Star Alliance carrier agreed to order eight more A330-300s at discounted prices in part as compensation for delays in the delivery of six Airbus A380s on order.

The airline said it would use the aircraft to replace six Airbus A300s and a pair of Boeing 747s.

During the Paris air show Airbus announced the firm order from Thai for the eight aircraft and deliveries are due to begin in 2008.

Thai already operates a dozen A330s powered by Pratt & Whitney PW4000s. No engine selection for the new aircraft has been disclosed.

In a related development, Thailand’s cabinet yesterday directed the national carrier to lease the eight aircraft rather than purchase them outright.

The carrier is expected as a result to seek out sale and lease-back agreements on the newly ordered twinjets.

Thai Airways president Apinan Sumanaseni says: “Thai is pleased to announce it has ordered eight more A330-300s, which will replace older aircraft in our fleet, as utilising this Airbus type has always proved profitable and efficient for the company.

"This order is in addition to our withstanding order of six A380-800 aircraft.

“The A330-300 was deemed most suitable towards operating the company’s regional routes in Asia, especially due to our continued increase in flight frequency and expanded route network.”

Last month the carrier said it was drawing up a new 10-year business plan that should include proposals for the replacement of dozens of older aircraft in its fleet. The plan will be presented to its board for consideration in August.

From http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/...a330-order.html

Levent · June 21, 2007

With over 500 787s on order it may be faster to get the A350s. That's what Bangkok Airways opted for.

Maybe, but bear in mind that the first delivery of the 787 is scheduled for 2008 while the first A350XWB will only be delivered in 2013 - according to the latest planning, that is...

cdnvic · June 21, 2007

Yes, but there aren't many orders in the way. Doubt you'd get a 787 before 2012/13 if you ordered today.

Levent · June 21, 2007

Yes, but there aren't many orders in the way. Doubt you'd get a 787 before 2012/13 if you ordered today.

Airbus has had some success with the A350WXB during the Paris Air Show thus far. ALAFCO ordered 12, US Airways 22, and then the confirmation of Qatar Airways' order for 80 of these aircraft. They're still a long way behind Boeing's 600 or so orders for the Dreamliner though...

ilyushin · June 21, 2007

FYI

Tuesday June 19, 11:39 PM

Cabinet orders Thai Airways to lease, not buy, Airbus planes

Thailand's interim cabinet on Tuesday ordered Thai Airways International to lease eight mid-sized Airbus A330 planes, rather than buy the aircraft as proposed by the flag carrier, officials said.

Airbus had offered the A330-300 aircraft at a heavily discounted price as a key part of a deal to compensate Thai Airways for the two-year delivery delay of six A380 superjumbos.

The purchase of eight mid-sized A330 aircraft to replace old planes would have cost Thai Airways about 30 billion baht (867 million dollars), but a cabinet statement released Tuesday said the aircraft should instead be leased.

A transport ministry official said it was a better solution, as Thai Airways was under financial pressure because of high oil prices.

"The cabinet agreed that operating a lease contract for the A330 for up to 10 years is more appropriate for Thai Airways, by not causing the airline a huge debt for buying the aircraft," the transport ministry official told AFP.

"Given the current high oil prices, Thai Airways should lease the aircraft just for the period of five to 10 years while looking for other fuel-efficient models to replace the retiring fleet later."

Thai Airways has targeted to order 40 aircraft over the next 10 years to replace old planes. The company currently operates 86 aircraft.

Airline president Apinan Sumanaseni said the delivery of the leased A330s was scheduled to start in October next year, and would take five years to complete.

"We need those aircraft to partially replace 48 existing ones set to retire within 10 years," said Apinan.

Production delays forced European manufacturer Airbus to postpone the delivery the six A380 superjumbos by two years to 2011, prompting months of compensation negotiations with Thai Airways.

The discounted A330s were at the centre of the deal reached in February, but officials from the government and Thai Airways did not disclose how Tuesday's cabinet decision would affect the arrangement.

Airbus had apologised to Thai Airways for the delay but the flag carrier had threatened to cancel its order if compensation was not agreed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levent,

Bangkok Airways A350WXB orders may never be delivered. Most aircraft this far along with order less than a hundred will fail. How many times has the A350 been re-designated?

Better equipment would be A330-200/300 or 777-200ER.

Edited June 21, 2007 by ilyushin

Kaysfeld · June 21, 2007

Bangkok Airways A350WXB orders may never be delivered. Most aircraft this far along with order less than a hundred will fail. How many times has the A350 been re-designated?
Better equipment would be A330-200/300 or 777-200ER.

Do you really think that the A330-200/300 or 777-200ER is a better solution.

I don't think so. For the shortterm yes, if you need the aircraft within the next few years.

But for the long term the Airbus 350XWB is a much better choice, also better than the 787 and 777,

because it give the airline commonality in a way the 787/777 combination doesn't do.

Because of the delay and late entry into the market, Airbus can incorporate many new designs which make the 350XWB more advanced and comfortable for the passanger (wider seats) than the 787/777 combination.

You say that the 350XWB will fail because there isn't customers enough. Don't count on it.

None of the original Airbus 350 customers have cancelled their orders.

Though they haven't finished price negotiations with Airbus, Airbus think that most will convert their orders to the 350XWB. If it is so, the 350XWB will be well on its way, and might catch up with the 787/777 within a few years in order numbers.

-----------------------------------------------------

FYI

Order burst for Airbus SOURCE:Flight Daily News. DATE:18/06/07

While Airbus may be smarting about the success of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, it believes the delays to its XWB programme may have

given it a competitive advantage. Mike Martin reports.

Airbus received a major boost to its A350 XWB (Extra Wide Body) programme just ahead of Paris air show: Qatar Airways and Aer Lingus signed deals for the type, as manufacturer Airbus continues to refine designs for the aircraft towards a concept freeze at the end of 2008.

Though significantly behind the rival Boeing 787 programme – both in terms of the development timescale and orders to date – Airbus said that delays to its own programme have enabled it to come to market with a better product.

350XWB PICTURE

Qatar Airways signed a Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) to buy 80 A350XWB aircraft. The agreement supersedes an earlier one signed in 2005 for 60 of the original A350 aircraft with the deal made up of 20 A350-800s, 40 A350-900s and 20 of the largest in the family, the A350-1000. Deliveries will begin from 2013.

Agreement

The agreement was signed at the Elysée Palace in Paris in the presence of His Highness Sheikh Hamad Bin Khalifa Al-Thani, Emir of the State of Qatar, and Nicolas Sarkozy, the new president, by Qatar Airways chief executive Akbar Al-Baker and Airbus president and chief executive Louis Gallois.

This will make the airline the largest customer for the A350XWB to date and the first one in the Middle East region.

However, discussions are ongoing with Emirates which has a similarly large requirement for long-range twins.

Aer Lingus become the latest airline to select the type with its biggest ever commitment for long-haul aircraft, the Irish airline decided to buy six A350 XWBs along with six additional A330-300s.

The A350 XWB family of aircraft was conceived as a comprehensive medium-capacity aircraft family with an extra-wide fuselage cross section. The long range twin will be available in three basic passenger versions - all with cruise speeds of Mach 0.85.

The A350-800 can fly 270 passengers up to 8,500 nm/15,750 km in a three-class configuration. The A350-900 will have a range of 8,400 nm/15,540 km, while the A350-1000 version can fly a distance of 8,300 nm/15,400 km., with seating capacities for 314 and 350 passengers, respectively.

The operating reach of the A350-900R version will provide ultra long-range performance, and a freighter configuration designated the A350-900F will complement the passenger models.

The latest innovations in terms of advanced technologies will be incorporated in the A350XWB, including all-new, easy to maintain, and much lighter Carbon Fibre Reinforced Plastic (CFRP) paneled fuselage skins. Over 60 per cent of the airframe will be made of advanced materials.

The race for space in the new generation of long range twins – which pits the A350 XWB family of aircraft against Boeing’s 787 family – has seen more work on the Airbus aircraft’s diameter. Airbus said that at 559 centimetres, the A350 XWB’s internal diameter is well ahead of its rivals, but the work has had an interesting result from the airlines.

According to Airbus chief operating officer customers John Leahy some airlines are exploring the possibility of high-density ten-abreast seating configurations to make the most of the additional space.

category

“Some are looking at it,” he said. “We are looking at it. At nine-abreast, we will offer the widest economy class seat and the widest premium class seat. However, some airlines are looking at this and asking is we can squeeze another seat in. We are looking at it.”

He added: “There is no doubt that Boeing started this whole category of product and that we came to the party late. But if you come to the party late, you have to have a better product.”

The most recent design work on the aircraft has seen not only work on the fuselage to create a slightly wider cabin, but studies into a more conventional nose profile for the aircraft derived from the A380. Airbus is also looking at a variable camber wing to improve cruise efficiency.

One of a number of design studies, the possible reconfiguration of the nose profile would see the landing gear positioned much further forward than in previous Airbus widebodies and see it located directly under the cockpit. A result of the change was the shifting of the flightcrew rest area from below the cockpit to the ceiling area.

Meanwhile, talks continue between Airbus and General Electric aimed at getting GE to offer its GEnx engine for the A350 XWB. Rolls-Royce, with its Trent XWB is already on the programme, but no agreement has been reached yet with GE, which would offer airlines a choice of engine.

While GE is thought to have plans for an engine that would cover the two smaller A350 variants, it is believed to be reluctant to offer a powerplant for the larger A350-1000 aircraft. This is because the type would compete head-on with members of the Boeing 777 family where GE has exclusive engine supply deals.

“It has always been our intention to have more than one engine supplier,” said Didier Evrard executive vice president, A350 programme.

Evrard said that the A350XWB programme is the first to be carried out under the Airbus Power 8 restructuring exercise, put in place after the costly and embarrassing delays to the A380 programme. This will involve new ways of working and a rethink on relationships with suppliers.

“We want to involve our suppliers at a much earlier phase,” he said, adding that the key risk-sharing partners will be known by this summer.

Airbus is extending its civil aircraft market leadership in terms of the use of advanced materials in the A350 XWB programme. Some 60% of the airframe will be made with advanced materials and the aircraft will feature an all-composite wing.

“We went down this route after careful consideration,” said Gordon McConnell, A350 XWB chief engineer. “The decisions were based on 20 years of experience in putting carbon onto the primary structure.

From http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/...for-airbus.html

Soju · June 22, 2007

I think many airlines are going to be very reluctant to order A350WXBs until they actually deliver, based on the A380 fiasco. Thus I doubt they'll have a chance to catch up to Boeing for well beyond another five years. At that time they may possibly have a better product than Boeing, but Boeing I don't think will be standing still either. They'll already have many years of experience with their 787 and be making improvements on it, and possibly looking to come out with a new model and new innovations. It's just like computers or any other high-tech item. You can buy the latest-and-greatest today, but you know it will be outdated by tomorrow. Anyone thinking of purchasing an airplane also knows this. They can't wait around for the best possible airplane to be developed because there will always be another better one just around the corner.

bkkandrew · June 22, 2007

FYI
Tuesday June 19, 11:39 PM

Cabinet orders Thai Airways to lease, not buy, Airbus planes

Thailand's interim cabinet on Tuesday ordered Thai Airways International to lease eight mid-sized Airbus A330 planes, rather than buy the aircraft as proposed by the flag carrier, officials said.

The purchase of eight mid-sized A330 aircraft to replace old planes would have cost Thai Airways about 30 billion baht (867 million dollars), but a cabinet statement released Tuesday said the aircraft should instead be leased.

A transport ministry official said it was a better solution, as Thai Airways was under financial pressure because of high oil prices.

"The cabinet agreed that operating a lease contract for the A330 for up to 10 years is more appropriate for Thai Airways, by not causing the airline a huge debt for buying the aircraft," the transport ministry official told AFP.

So.

THAI is hard up, so needs to lease planes. (Sounds like the Thai prawn cancellation from 4-years ago to me)

Taking on a lease in some way avoids creating a 'debt'. Hmmm, can I lease one too and not incur a debt? Happy days, flying hither and thither debt free, because it is a lease you see. Thai style.

Junta 'ordering' the board of THAI what to do? Got to laugh. Only in Thailand!

ilyushin · June 22, 2007

Bangkok Airways A350WXB orders may never be delivered. Most aircraft this far along with order less than a hundred will fail. How many times has the A350 been re-designated?
Better equipment would be A330-200/300 or 777-200ER.

Do you really think that the A330-200/300 or 777-200ER is a better solution.

I don't think so. For the shortterm yes, if you need the aircraft within the next few years.

But for the long term the Airbus 350XWB is a much better choice, also better than the 787 and 777,

because it give the airline commonality in a way the 787/777 combination doesn't do.

Because of the delay and late entry into the market, Airbus can incorporate many new designs which make the 350XWB more advanced and comfortable for the passanger (wider seats) than the 787/777 combination.

You say that the 350XWB will fail because there isn't customers enough. Don't count on it.

None of the original Airbus 350 customers have cancelled their orders.

Though they haven't finished price negotiations with Airbus, Airbus think that most will convert their orders to the 350XWB. If it is so, the 350XWB will be well on its way, and might catch up with the 787/777 within a few years in order numbers.

-----------------------------------------------------

FYI

Order burst for Airbus SOURCE:Flight Daily News. DATE:18/06/07

While Airbus may be smarting about the success of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, it believes the delays to its XWB programme may have

given it a competitive advantage. Mike Martin reports.

Airbus received a major boost to its A350 XWB (Extra Wide Body) programme just ahead of Paris air show: Qatar Airways and Aer Lingus signed deals for the type, as manufacturer Airbus continues to refine designs for the aircraft towards a concept freeze at the end of 2008.

Though significantly behind the rival Boeing 787 programme – both in terms of the development timescale and orders to date – Airbus said that delays to its own programme have enabled it to come to market with a better product.

350XWB PICTURE

Qatar Airways signed a Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) to buy 80 A350XWB aircraft. The agreement supersedes an earlier one signed in 2005 for 60 of the original A350 aircraft with the deal made up of 20 A350-800s, 40 A350-900s and 20 of the largest in the family, the A350-1000. Deliveries will begin from 2013.

Agreement

The agreement was signed at the Elysée Palace in Paris in the presence of His Highness Sheikh Hamad Bin Khalifa Al-Thani, Emir of the State of Qatar, and Nicolas Sarkozy, the new president, by Qatar Airways chief executive Akbar Al-Baker and Airbus president and chief executive Louis Gallois.

This will make the airline the largest customer for the A350XWB to date and the first one in the Middle East region.

However, discussions are ongoing with Emirates which has a similarly large requirement for long-range twins.

Aer Lingus become the latest airline to select the type with its biggest ever commitment for long-haul aircraft, the Irish airline decided to buy six A350 XWBs along with six additional A330-300s.

The A350 XWB family of aircraft was conceived as a comprehensive medium-capacity aircraft family with an extra-wide fuselage cross section. The long range twin will be available in three basic passenger versions - all with cruise speeds of Mach 0.85.

The A350-800 can fly 270 passengers up to 8,500 nm/15,750 km in a three-class configuration. The A350-900 will have a range of 8,400 nm/15,540 km, while the A350-1000 version can fly a distance of 8,300 nm/15,400 km., with seating capacities for 314 and 350 passengers, respectively.

The operating reach of the A350-900R version will provide ultra long-range performance, and a freighter configuration designated the A350-900F will complement the passenger models.

The latest innovations in terms of advanced technologies will be incorporated in the A350XWB, including all-new, easy to maintain, and much lighter Carbon Fibre Reinforced Plastic (CFRP) paneled fuselage skins. Over 60 per cent of the airframe will be made of advanced materials.

The race for space in the new generation of long range twins – which pits the A350 ZEB family of aircraft against Boeing’s 787 family – has seen more work on the Airbus aircraft’s diameter. Airbus said that at 559 centimetres, the A350 XWB’s internal diameter is well ahead of its rivals, but the work has had an interesting result from the airlines.

According to Airbus chief operating officer customers John Leahy some airlines are exploring the possibility of high-density ten-abreast seating configurations to make the most of the additional space.

category

“Some are looking at it,” he said. “We are looking at it. At nine-abreast, we will offer the widest economy class seat and the widest premium class seat. However, some airlines are looking at this and asking is we can squeeze another seat in. We are looking at it.”

He added: “There is no doubt that Boeing started this whole category of product and that we came to the party late. But if you come to the party late, you have to have a better product.”

The most recent design work on the aircraft has seen not only work on the fuselage to create a slightly wider cabin, but studies into a more conventional nose profile for the aircraft derived from the A380. Airbus is also looking at a variable camber wing to improve cruise efficiency.

One of a number of design studies, the possible reconfiguration of the nose profile would see the landing gear positioned much further forward than in previous Airbus widebodies and see it located directly under the cockpit. A result of the change was the shifting of the flightcrew rest area from below the cockpit to the ceiling area.

Meanwhile, talks continue between Airbus and General Electric aimed at getting GE to offer its GEnx engine for the A350 XWB. Rolls-Royce, with its Trent XWB is already on the programme, but no agreement has been reached yet with GE, which would offer airlines a choice of engine.

While GE is thought to have plans for an engine that would cover the two smaller A350 variants, it is believed to be reluctant to offer a powerplant for the larger A350-1000 aircraft. This is because the type would compete head-on with members of the Boeing 777 family where GE has exclusive engine supply deals.

“It has always been our intention to have more than one engine supplier,” said Didier Evrard executive vice president, A350 programme.

Evrard said that the A350XWB programme is the first to be carried out under the Airbus Power 8 restructuring exercise, put in place after the costly and embarrassing delays to the A380 programme. This will involve new ways of working and a rethink on relationships with suppliers.

“We want to involve our suppliers at a much earlier phase,” he said, adding that the key risk-sharing partners will be known by this summer.

Airbus is extending its civil aircraft market leadership in terms of the use of advanced materials in the A350 XWB programme. Some 60% of the airframe will be made with advanced materials and the aircraft will feature an all-composite wing.

“We went down this route after careful consideration,” said Gordon McConnell, A350 XWB chief engineer. “The decisions were based on 20 years of experience in putting carbon onto the primary structure.

From http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/...for-airbus.html

Financial Times website. However, on 17 July 2006, at the Farnborough Air Show, Airbus announced that the redesigned aircraft would be called A350 XWB (Xtra Wide Body).

Airbus achieved its first sale of the redesigned A350 four days after its unveiling when Singapore Airlines announced an order for 20 A350 XWBs with options of a further 20. Its CEO, Chew Choon Seng, said in a statement, that "it is heartening that Airbus has listened to customer airlines and has come up with a totally new design for the A350."

Late in 2006 a decision on formal launch was delayed as a result of delays of the Airbus A380 and wrangles about how the development would be funded. EADS CEO Thomas Enders stated that the A350 program was not a certainty, citing EADS/Airbus' stretched resources. On 1 December 2006 the EADS board agreed the industrial launch of the sixth iteration A350 with costs mainly borne out of cash-flow. First delivery for the -900 is scheduled for mid-2013, with the -800 and -1000 following on, respectively, 12 and 24 months later. At a press conference 4 December 2006 a few new technical details of the A350XWB design were revealed, but no new customers were identified and John Leahy indicated existing A350 contracts were under re-negotiation due to increases in prices compared to the original A350s contracted.

On 4 January 2007, Airbus announced that Pegasus Aviation Finance Company had placed the first firm order for the A350 XWB with an order for two aircraft, though the variants were unspecified at the time.

The A350 will have a fuselage cross-section wider than the original A350 which used the existing Airbus widebody standard. Airbus refers to this as "XWB" or "Xtra Wide Body" and states that from the point of view of a seated passenger, the cabin is 5 inches wider at eye level than the competing Boeing 787. All A350 XWB passenger models will have a range of at least 8,000 nautical miles.

The aircraft will have a cruising speed of approximately Mach 0.85, similar to the Boeing 787 or Boeing 747, and Airbus claims that its maintenance costs will be 10% lower than for the 787. The A350 will have a common cockpit with the Airbus A380. Airbus also claims that the A350-900 will have fuel consumption per seat 7% lower than the Boeing 787-9. However, Boeing argues that the A350-900 should not be compared to the 787-9 as it is considerably larger. The A350 is to have large windows and will be pressurised to 6,000 feet or lower with a cabin air humidity of at least 20%.

The Airbus board of directors approved the industrial launch of the A350-800 / -900 & -1000 in December 2006 . The XWB will impose a couple of years of delay into the original timetable and almost double development costs from $5.3 billion to approximately $10 billion.

The aircraft will be obsolete before it is delivered.

AIRBUS Production List

A350

Last update Jun 20, 2007

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

C/n Type Regs. . . . . . .

As of Jul 17, 2006 Airbus is offering the A350 XWB, or Extra Wide Body.

The new family of aircraft will consist of 4 passenger versions and also a

freighter. The new aircraft will be the A350-800 (270 passengers), A350-900

(314 passengers) and A350-1000 (350 passengers), all in a three-class layout.

Range will be 8500 nm. The A350-900R will go even farther. Entry into service

for the first aircraft is expected in 2012.

Orders will be recorded on this part of the site. Maybe orders for the original

A350 placed before Jul 17, 2006 will have to be renegotiated, these are at the

bottom marked with (*) and could be cancelled or altered.

When production starts, individual aircraft will be listed here.

ORDERS:

Aeroflot A350XWB 22

Aer Lingus A350XWB 6

Afriqiyah Airways A350XWB 6 (LOI)

Alafco A350XWB-800 12 (+ 6 options)

CASGC A350XWB 20 (LOI)

CIT Inc. A350XWB-800 7

Finnair A350XWB 11

Kingfisher A350XWB-800 20 (LOI)

Libyan Airlines A350XWB 4 (LOI)

Pegasus Aviation A350XWB-800 2

Qatar Airways A350XWB-800 20

A350XWB-900 40

A350XWB-1000 20

Singapore Airlines A350XWB-900 20 (+ 20 options) (LOI)

US Airways A350XWB-800 22

Air Europa A350-800 10 (+ 2 options) (*)

Bangkok Airways A350-800 6 (*)

Eurofly A350-800 3 (+ 3 options) (*)

ILFC A350-800/900 16 (*)

TAM A350-900 10 (+ 5 options) (*)

TAP Portugal A350 10 (*)

Yemenia A350-800 6 (+ 4 options) (*)

Note: LOI= Letter of Intent which is nothing but a piece of paper stating interest.

Seems airlines will order Airbus A350XWB and A380s to get deals on A330s.

Hope it flies. My clients need long range aircraft with these capacities. To keep operation/maintenance cost down a far larger number of deliveries will be needed.

The 787 ad 777 are their own leaders. Airbus has nothing that can compare in production.

Boeing claims that the 787 will be 20% more fuel efficient than current aircraft and I can assume that through much wind tunnel modeling and computer algorithms that this may be true (but nothing is certain until things are operational). Airbus claims on their website that the A350XWB will be 30% more fuel efficient than other aircraft. I do suspect that there is some heavy engineering to back this statement up in the Ashop somewhere, though I am suspect because of the many iterations of the airplane and this 30% just seemed to jump in from nowhere. I realize that Boeing is going to construct the fuses from composite barrels and Airbus is going to use panels which will lead to a heavier plane just by the design. I could agree with 20% for the XWB as that is still quite a jump from current aircraft, but an additional 10% just seems like a huge number for fuel efficiency when the size of the aircraft is not that dissimilar as compared to the 787. It has to come down to engines and aerodynamics and I just don't see that extra 10%. By the way, I do hope both planes are a hit.

Long story made very very short. Both sets of numbers are basically meaningless at this point in time. Neither plane has been assembled so it's all simulations and conjecture (albeit educated).

The other problem is the numbers aren't apples vs. apples. *IF* Boeing makes an a350-1000 sized 787 it too will become more 'efficient' because it will carry more pax. Every extra PAX you cram in reduces the weight (and therefore fuel burn) overhead of the frame/engines/etc. (Engines are very heavy).

An A350-800 won't be anywhere close to a 350-1000 in terms of efficiency because it will be flying with derated engines (read: heavier than they need to be because they are 350-900 engines turned down by computer, not in size)

It's a big shell game. Basically it's sumed up as follows (roughly):

total fuel capacity / (expected pax capacity * max range)

Very rough, but works as a yardstick for measuring efficiency. (Before anyone jumps in I know there's almost litterally, a million other variables, but I find the above is a great simple quick check).

operational synergies

Edited June 22, 2007 by ilyushin

Greenside · June 22, 2007

All of a pity really, because years ago Thai was a good mob. Just gone downhill over the years. As for legroom, Thai is 34" to SIA's 32" - http://www.westernair.co.uk/seatpitch.html
so there is little difference and both are well beyond the industry minimum of 26". I have found SIA's 777-200s (MEL - SIN) to have plenty of legroom.

Actually, I find the extra two inches makes a surprising difference and is a reason I try to avoid BA and Quantas wherever possible but having never traveled long haul with TG and now booked to LHR and Back in August I'm dismayed to hear it may turn out to be less than comfortable and entertaining.

tw25rw · June 24, 2007

Actually, I find the extra two inches makes a surprising difference and is a reason I try to avoid BA and Quantas wherever possible but having never traveled long haul with TG and now booked to LHR and Back in August I'm dismayed to hear it may turn out to be less than comfortable and entertaining.

2" would make a big difference to me. I won't choose Qantas or BA for that reason either. 31" isn't enough for me, but 34" is bearable. I hope there comes a time when present premium economy standards become the norm.

Kaysfeld · July 2, 2007

The aircraft will be obsolete before it is delivered.

The airlines still seems to have faith in Airbus.

PARIS 2007: Carriers order and commit to 728 Airbus jets

Airbus secured agreements for 728 aircraft during the Paris Air Show after landing firm orders for 425 and commitments for a further 303, eclipsing Boeing’s firm booking of 66 jets.

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