Just Caught A Teacher With A Fake Degree

[BigA]

If a person is prepared to lie about having a degree, what else are they lying about?

I would not like to have a dishonest person teaching my kids nor would I like one as a colleague?

I have been affiliated with Webster and the Thailand operation over the years and they had some cases of degree fabrication come up, outright lies as well as stretching the truth where somebody actually has an earned degree but presented it as something different or presented what they do have in a more favorable light.

Sort of like telling what is known in the US as a white lie.

If you had a completely fabricated degree you were gone, if you were busted stretching the truth then it depended on who you were, how large a tall tale you were trying to tell, how good your connections were, and your personal inclination to slither about on your belly.

[Scott]

Big A-- I don't remember who said it, but someone said something to the effect that a resume is as close to perfect as anyone can get.

A lot of people embellish on their resume and in describing their jobs. I don't have too much of a problem with that. Several months gets extended to a year; having once substituted for another teacher for a time becomes having taught the subject etc... This stuff is pretty normal.

Hey, I once taught physics, until they actually found someone who could teach physics. I could barely spell it, let alone teach it!! Experience, however, teaches you not to put things like that on the resume, otherwise you might actually get hired to do it!

Thanks for the input. I hope Webster is doing OK, I've had friends who attended there and knew some of the staff (in BKK) a few years back.

[Prakanong]

P.S. just to emphasise- the problem with the teacher here was not necessarily the presence or absence of his degree at the time of hiring [some teachers work legally without them], but his LYING about the degree and submitting false paperwork to the school and the government.

Hi

You talk of being grandfathered in from the old system.

What would happen to someone without a degree who got the WP under the ld system. Can they move jobs now and stay legal or are they pretty much stuck at the one school?

[BigA]

Yea Scott at least for Americans going overboard is pretty much normal.

Good American HR people know to take what people say even on paper with a grain of salt.

Its good that they are doing more background investigations prior to employment in Thailand and performing a higher level of screening regarding a persons qualifications.

[BigA]

I don't see much grandfathering in going on not when there are plenty of people who can meet the standard standing in line.

They raised the bar where I work and its sink or swim. If you you can't meet the minimum standard no matter what your ability is your screwed.

[Ijustwannateach]

Phra Khanong,

Yes, that pretty much does it for them if they have to change schools, unless of course they're very well-connected (that seems to overcome nearly all difficulties in Thailand). Scott mentions a few that are grandfathered in at his school, and I am aware of one or two in my acquaintance. However, the jury is still out on whether ALL non-degreed teachers are unacceptable, especially on a province-by-province basis, and the agencies/language mills continue to seem to be able to hire just about any oxygen-breathing carbon-based lifeform.

Let's stay off the topic of Webster. It has been a problem in this subforum lately.

Scott,

I'm glad to act as a sounding-board. Your last post makes the situation a bit clearer. However, thinking from the employee's point of view, I cannot help but predict that he will feel singled out (after all, your school doesn't routinely check degrees, as you said yourself). If you really wanted to cover all your bases from a management point of view, I would recommend that you promptly confirm paperwork for ALL teachers in your school- otherwise this guy can quite fairly complain that he was targetted on the basis of this other employee's vendetta (which may not change his personal situation, but might have quite an impact on how remaining staff feel about what is happening- firings are usually bad for morale no matter for what reason). In fact, it might be wise to do this BEFORE you have your little talk with him, just to give him the opportunity to tell you himself about the situation.

I would also still be wondering how this other employee- presumably no one who is in the usual chain of authority over the teacher in question- came to be observing him and making complaints. When the fraud-committing teacher is fired, it *will* be associated with the complainer's complaint about him, and that will affect other staff. You need to consider the atmosphere carefully and be sure that the other teachers do not come to regard that teacher as a bully, a troublemaker, or a management spy. It might also be wise before you take any action to do some covert observation and evaluation of your own- of ALL teachers- so once again your bases are covered as a manager and you haven't been singling out one teacher on the basis of another's ill will.

Of course, you're the one on the ground and maybe none of these thoughts is actually relevant, but I thought I'd throw them out there.

"Steven"

[Prakanong]

Thanks for the explanation - it makes something else more clear now as to why somebody would be doing what they are.

[BigA]

I busted another teacher B4. Had no qualms about it either. It was for something different though than passing off a phoney degree.

I know they say what goes around comes around, but if nobody ever does anything and people keep on looking the other way our system will degrade.

You would be surpised how many people are out there protecting these losers anyway.

We must always be vigilant and never allow complacency to creep into the profession.

Society needs watchdogs.

Edited May 29, 2007 by BigA

[mbkudu]

There's an interesting article in today's Learning Post in the Bangkok Post about some very high profile administrators and professors at some of the best universities in the the US and Europe who were either sacked or are under investigation for improprieties with their CVs or performing unethically. It also goes on to say that 74% of business students and 68% of non-business students admitted to plagarizing or cheating on tests. slightly off topic, but still related. Just shows that Thailand's education system certainly isn't unusual.

[Scott]

IJWT, thanks for the input. Eventually everyone will be checked. What I am doing is checking them as their visas and work permit expire. So about a month before we submit the paperwork to the labor department, there is some form of inquiry.

Some of the teachers have been employed for a number of years, and the schools where they attended are either now closed, names changed, or have merged with another school and their records are harder to check. Some of these folks don't have degrees, but certification.

The guy in question would not have been hired at the time, since our school did not employ people without degrees. The authorities had already been kicking up a fuss at that time. In addition, he had NO post high school certification of any kind (other than his fake degree).

I am sympathetic to his situation and his plight, but I am not going to justify my action regarding anyone else, nor will I explain to him what is being done in anyone elses case. It's a little like speeding--everybody is doing it, but Iam the one who always gets caught! Try talk your way out of ticket based on that!

At our school, evaluation and observations are done on everybody every year (theoretically at least).

Your help advice is much appreciated because it helps keep me on my toes and prepared for whatever comes up. I must admit that I am a little bit afraid of shaking this tree as I think more apples may fall than I am prepared to pick up! (or at least replace)!!

[aaaaaa]

Just Caught A Teacher With A Fake Degree, What do you think should be done?

just let him be, dude - let him go! everyone needs some means of living. he is not smugling drug or weapons - not such a big sin, teaching without proper degree.

[BigA]

Just Caught A Teacher With A Fake Degree, What do you think should be done?

just let him be, dude - let him go! everyone needs some means of living. he is not smugling drug or weapons - not such a big sin, teaching without proper degree.

I did wish to imply that I was a workplace Pig. Live and let live is OK if they just want to exist.

It's just that if they piss the wrong person off they are vulnerable to being culled.

[Loaded]

There's an interesting article in today's Learning Post in the Bangkok Post about some very high profile administrators and professors at some of the best universities in the the US and Europe who were either sacked or are under investigation for improprieties with their CVs or performing unethically. It also goes on to say that 74% of business students and 68% of non-business students admitted to plagarizing or cheating on tests. slightly off topic, but still related. Just shows that Thailand's education system certainly isn't unusual.

I also read somewhere that the HR departments of large multi-nationals operating in Asia (including Singapore and HK) have problems checking the authenticity of qualifications of applicants.

[Jimjim]

I was alerted by another staff member who questioned the credibility of someone's degree. They were having some problems between themselves, but I decided it was probably a good thing to check the degree.

The employee has been employed for about 5 years and came from another school. This was prior to the big push by MOE and Immigration.

The check determined that no one by that name or birthdate graduated from the school on the date listed on the degree. The Director of the school has indicated that he should be discharged. What do you think? What other action, if any is warranted?

He should leave. Even if he's a good teacher if he's been having trouble with someone I'd say it's time to go. Things could be made very bad for him if he stays. It's for his own good.

[mikethevigoman]

I was alerted by another staff member who questioned the credibility of someone's degree. They were having some problems between themselves, but I decided it was probably a good thing to check the degree.

The employee has been employed for about 5 years and came from another school. This was prior to the big push by MOE and Immigration.

The check determined that no one by that name or birthdate graduated from the school on the date listed on the degree. The Director of the school has indicated that he should be discharged. What do you think? What other action, if any is warranted?

6 lashes with the cane and homework for a month !

[mikethevigoman]

5 years good work? Let him stay on and forget it. Hard to find good employees. Lots of degrees out there, but they are not always ideal for the job.

Iagree, if a mechanic was discovered with fake papers but he was a fantastic mechanic would it matter ?

[OxfordWill]

turn a blind eye

Would you turn a blind eye to a Dr with a fake degree treating you?

Why accept a fraud?

Weak analogy.

[OxfordWill]

Does the guy have kids- is he a decent sort of chap? Does he have a family and support it or is he down Nana every evening after work?

No need to apply a principle to this decision, you are faced with potentially ruining his life, I see no good defence for applying a moral principle such as "he lied so he must be punished" or somesuch. Take into account everything about the situation including his ability to teach etc then decide on the right course of action on that basis and not on any abstract rule or principle.

[JimmyCA]

I was alerted by another staff member who questioned the credibility of someone's degree. They were having some problems between themselves, but I decided it was probably a good thing to check the degree.

The employee has been employed for about 5 years and came from another school. This was prior to the big push by MOE and Immigration.

The check determined that no one by that name or birthdate graduated from the school on the date listed on the degree. The Director of the school has indicated that he should be discharged. What do you think? What other action, if any is warranted?

Lying in Thailand is the national pastime. He is well qualified for promotion. Get rid of the director and possibly yourself for posting this malarkey.

[aussiestyle1983]

Scott, does the school name you work for start with S?

If it is the school I'm thinking of, I wouldn't do anything, they most likely wouldn't care and you would just be looked at as a trouble maker. There are proably others there with fakes but some a-hole just decided to bust this one guy. I'd let it go if he is a good teacher anyway. But if you work for the school I'm thinking of, I would just forget about it and concentrate on all the other BS you have to deal with.

BTW, you said the dirrector indicated he should be discharged.................. INDICATED! What a load of <deleted>. Obviously the dirrector doesn't care so nor should you. The dirrector could of discharged the person themselves if they wanted or had the balls, so thats another reason to let it go.

Edited June 1, 2007 by aussiestyle1983

[JimsKnight]

In my eyes if he's performed 5 years as a teacher and is a good teacher they should subject him to an assessment test on teaching.

The fake degree will of got him in the door but only his skill and performance as a teacher kept him there. Afterall five years ago it was an accepted thing to allow fake degrees in the first place without checking them so who really is the bad person?

Is this teacher a farang or a thai? Correct me if I'm wrong on this but, A Thai only has to attend university and he is awarded a degree. Also known as an 'attendance degree' That to me is akin to a fake degree. The government can't be tangled with directly, but it can be given the 'come along'...

If I was the head teacher I'd give the guy an accessment, if he passes it then 'grandfather' him in under a prior accredited experience rule. If he fails, show him the door. He has 5 years of experience to actually claim he is teacher anyway so getting work elsewhere should'nt pose too much of a problem (unless the new place demand a degree).

Edited June 1, 2007 by JimsKnight

[JimsKnight]

Some double standards here, we are forever hearing people bleat as to how many scams and rip off's there are in Thailand, but when a farang does it?

The man is a fraud, a liar and a cheat. I wouldn't want such a man to have anything to do with the education of my children. People who lie on their CV's are quite pathetic. If I was a qualified teacher I would be pretty annoyed that I had spent time and money to get a degree and some cheat lied his way in and was doing the same job for the same pay.

Thats just the thing jack, the farang may well be 'one of our own', it boils down in many respects on what judgement others want to pass on him. He's in a foreign land, likely not expecting the sword of damocles to come slicing down and all of a sudden <SCCHING> down it comes and he's the one on the outside looking in. The real qualified folk who've done time at Unis in the West often don't get the money and expat packages they deserve out here, hence getting them to LOS is v. hard. Coming the hard-line culling approach on every single teacher will depopulate the ranks of foreign teachers big time...

There but for the grace of his fake degree goes the unsuspecting teacher...

I wonder what will happen to him?

[mbkudu]

A Thai only has to attend university and he is awarded a degree.

This is absolutely untrue and really has no bearing on this topic anyway. Years ago I was advised by a friend to get a fake degree because 'Everybody is doing it, mate. It's no biggy.' I never once considered it. It's just not right. I know lots of great teachers without degrees, but they know they don't have one and don't pretend to have one. I even know a few genuine Phds who are crap teachers.

Edited June 1, 2007 by mbkudu

[JimsKnight]

A Thai only has to attend university and he is awarded a degree.

This is absolutely untrue and really has no bearing on this topic anyway. Years ago I was advised by a friend to get a fake degree because 'Everybody is doing it, mate. It's no biggy.' I never once considered it. It's just not right. I know lots of great teachers without degrees, but they know they don't have one and don't pretend to have one. I even know a few genuine Phds who are crap teachers.

Ok It was brazen of me to suggest that about teaching degrees but I will give my reason. I personally know Thai students who have attended University in Surat Thani and are awarded their Engineering degrees on the strength of attendance alone, no exams and no studying! Wish it was that easy back in the West!

I was told this from the student who got the degree hence figuring the same for teaching degrees

[mbkudu]

A Thai only has to attend university and he is awarded a degree.

This is absolutely untrue and really has no bearing on this topic anyway. Years ago I was advised by a friend to get a fake degree because 'Everybody is doing it, mate. It's no biggy.' I never once considered it. It's just not right. I know lots of great teachers without degrees, but they know they don't have one and don't pretend to have one. I even know a few genuine Phds who are crap teachers.

Ok It was brazen of me to suggest that about teaching degrees but I will give my reason. I personally know Thai students who have attended University in Surat Thani and are awarded their Engineering degrees on the strength of attendance alone, no exams and no studying! Wish it was that easy back in the West!

I was told this from the student who got the degree hence figuring the same for teaching degrees

I'm sure what you have said is true, but it certainly isn't true for most of the universities here. In the US they hand out 'life experience degrees.' Life can be hard, but there is a limit somewhere I think.

Edited June 2, 2007 by mbkudu

[bungalowbill]

Does the guy have kids- is he a decent sort of chap? Does he have a family and support it or is he down Nana every evening after work?

No need to apply a principle to this decision, you are faced with potentially ruining his life, I see no good defence for applying a moral principle such as "he lied so he must be punished" or somesuch. Take into account everything about the situation including his ability to teach etc then decide on the right course of action on that basis and not on any abstract rule or principle.

Oxford you are way off base. What difference does it make if he has kids or not? Do you want to know if he goes to church on Sundays too? So if he and has kids you wouldn't fire him? But if he's single and doesn't have kids you would send his ass out on the streets? That's not equality at all. I hope you don't supervise people.

Edited June 2, 2007 by bungalowbill

[Ijustwannateach]

It's not a question of the merits. The school has responsibility and could be punished. Furthermore, since a foreign member of staff (not Scott but the other teacher) is probably aware of the problem, he could make more trouble if the school refused to do anything.

I suggested letting him stay until the end of term because of his past service, because of the school's needs, and because it is rare that a school really needs to hurry something like this. After all, he's already worked there 5 years- the risk isn't that great- and if he also had to fire the other teacher and that teacher caused a problem, he could always tell him: "Your choice: both of you work until the end of term, or both of you go now."

But as I said, the cat's out of the bag. Scott, you're probably right to worry about the fallout from this, however indirect. Good luck.

"Steven"

[ataloss]

Quote: I personally know Thai students who have attended University in Surat Thani and are awarded their Engineering degrees on the strength of attendance alone, no exams and no studying! I was told this from the student who got the degree hence figuring the same for teaching degrees....I'm sure what you have said is true, but it certainly isn't true for most of the universities here. In the US they hand out 'life experience degrees.' Life can be hard, but there is a limit somewhere I think. Unquote

How about the Oxford MA"Oxon". It is only a BA, awarded for a fee.

Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrees_of_th...rsity_of_Oxford

[griser]

I don't think there is a question about firing him, the question is wether you should report him to the authorities... If you do that then I would probably kiss your teaching staff goodbye.

When schools start reporting good working teachers with no history of conflict to the authorities, It indicates that the school is willing to contact the authorities on ANY OTHER matter including visa problems, small overstays ect.

Trust me, an action like that will get you a LOT of bad press with english teachers around thailand. Is your admin ready to accept those consequences? If so then go for it...

It was your schools responsibility to check this man's credentials and you failed to do that, you are partly responsible for him working illegally in the first place. The authorities may decide to fine your school for failure to check him as a result.

My 2P's worth

Griser

Edited June 3, 2007 by griser

[OxfordWill]

Does the guy have kids- is he a decent sort of chap? Does he have a family and support it or is he down Nana every evening after work?

No need to apply a principle to this decision, you are faced with potentially ruining his life, I see no good defence for applying a moral principle such as "he lied so he must be punished" or somesuch. Take into account everything about the situation including his ability to teach etc then decide on the right course of action on that basis and not on any abstract rule or principle.

Oxford you are way off base. What difference does it make if he has kids or not? Do you want to know if he goes to church on Sundays too? So if he and has kids you wouldn't fire him? But if he's single and doesn't have kids you would send his ass out on the streets? That's not equality at all. I hope you don't supervise people.

Personally no I do not want to know if he goes to Church on Sunday but maybe that would be relevant to the OP.

Why not be less insulting and ask me for clarification if you happen to not understand my point?

I am suggesting the OP is in an ethical dilemma, not just a pragmatic one, and that he ought to consider how he goes about making his decision and not just what that decision is. Many posters here are suggesting that because the teacher fabricated a degree, he ought to be punished. I am suggesting this might be a bad way of thinking about it, because you cannot always reliably apply this kind of "moral rule" to unique situations. If you want to read more about this point of view google "moral particularism".

In this case, can we definitely say that making stuff up for your CV is always wrong? Is there nothing else to consider about him and his life? Are you sure?

Even though I have letters after my name, and can walk into any (oh the arrogance!) school here in Bangkok and get a job (providing a position is available obviously!) tomorrow, I am pretty sure this guy is a far far better teacher than I am. Would you really choose me over him when it comes to teaching your kids? 5 years vs 0 years? Think about it harder.

Edited June 3, 2007 by OxfordWill