Just Caught A Teacher With A Fake Degree

[Xangsamhua]

I may have missed this, but has the teacher acknowledged that he/she does not have the qualifications she/he has claimed to have? If it's simply a matter that the university does not have a record of this person graduating it could be, perhaps, that the person has changed his/her name or there's been some other glitch in records maintenance at the university.

If the teacher is dismissed and the courts find the dismissal to be unjust the school could be up for a big fine. I am aware of such a case.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Yes, that's why I suggested that the check be universal (all teachers in the same department, etc.) and that any discrepancies be discussed in an exploratory fashion before anything is said that may prove regrettable afterwards.

In fact, if it all proves to be a big misunderstanding, it wouldn't be wrong for the accused teacher to sue the accusing teacher (plus the department and anyone involved, if they *singled him out* rather than applying the same procedures to each employee) for slander, as a significant and damaging comment was made which led to the discussion of his being fired and damaged his individual professional reputation. Thailand has some pretty strong laws in this regard, I think.

"Steven"

[Scott]

I have met with the teacher in question and he did acknowledge that the degree was a fake.

Since the new regulations require that we verify everyones degrees, that is what is being done. With existing teachers, their documentation is also being checked in a pre-set order; unless we have reason to check them in a different order.

I might add that nothing was said to the rest of the staff concerning the circumstances under which the teacher left the school. It was up to him to explain/not explain his circumstances. A few people have asked and I have told them that I am not at liberty to discuss it, but they can contact him.

I am rather sure, he will use some face-saving measure, but over time I am sure the real reasons will come out.

[paully]

^ He has to be dismissed as soon as possible, Scott. He lied and got caught red-handed. What happens to him now is his concern, not yours. Frankly, he should be embarrassed that he has brought problems to your school.

[Scott]

Thanks Paully, he has been dismissed and is now seeking other employment. I strongly suggested he not use a similar tactic. Had he been straightforward in the beginning (at that time), he would have qualified to teach here.

Now, I don't know if he can.

But yes, he was English, but now he's history!

[bungalowbill]

Does the guy have kids- is he a decent sort of chap? Does he have a family and support it or is he down Nana every evening after work?

No need to apply a principle to this decision, you are faced with potentially ruining his life, I see no good defence for applying a moral principle such as "he lied so he must be punished" or somesuch. Take into account everything about the situation including his ability to teach etc then decide on the right course of action on that basis and not on any abstract rule or principle.

Oxford you are way off base. What difference does it make if he has kids or not? Do you want to know if he goes to church on Sundays too? So if he and has kids you wouldn't fire him? But if he's single and doesn't have kids you would send his ass out on the streets? That's not equality at all. I hope you don't supervise people.

Personally no I do not want to know if he goes to Church on Sunday but maybe that would be relevant to the OP.

Why not be less insulting and ask me for clarification if you happen to not understand my point?

I am suggesting the OP is in an ethical dilemma, not just a pragmatic one, and that he ought to consider how he goes about making his decision and not just what that decision is. Many posters here are suggesting that because the teacher fabricated a degree, he ought to be punished. I am suggesting this might be a bad way of thinking about it, because you cannot always reliably apply this kind of "moral rule" to unique situations. If you want to read more about this point of view google "moral particularism".

In this case, can we definitely say that making stuff up for your CV is always wrong? Is there nothing else to consider about him and his life? Are you sure?

Even though I have letters after my name, and can walk into any (oh the arrogance!) school here in Bangkok and get a job (providing a position is available obviously!) tomorrow, I am pretty sure this guy is a far far better teacher than I am. Would you really choose me over him when it comes to teaching your kids? 5 years vs 0 years? Think about it harder.

Fair enough Oxford..I don't want to be rude but have experienced a double standard once or twice in my life and it's just not fair. I agree that weather or not he is punished for the fake degree should considered and every situation is different. But you suggest that his personal life should be considered when making the desision to fire him or not. I still disagree with that 100%.

It seems to me that if you were in Scott's position you would favor him if he's married and has Kids to support. But if he was single and liked to go to bars, (he's out) which by the way is no one's business

Bottom line is there should be one standard for all in the workplace. Outside the work place is not the supervisor's business unless it negatively affects his job performance. (and I'm not talking about criminal activity)

And the reason I said I hope you don't supervise people is that your post came across as if you have a moral standard that you would impose on your employees when considering to fire them for the same infraction, and you still have not convinced me otherwise...in your last post you say if he goes to church may be relevant to the OP in this case. why?

By the way isn't it illegal in most places to discrimate in the workplace based on marital status and other factors, like race, creed, color etc....?

[JimmyCA]

By the way isn't it illegal in most places to discrimate in the workplace based on marital status and other factors, like race, creed, color etc....?

Absolutely not in Thailand

[Scott]

The points that people have made are quite helpful. I don't want people thinking that I would take either the employing (spelling?) or dismissal of anyone lightly. This has the potential to change his life. Whether it is a positive or negative one is largely up to him.

In the end, this person broke the law by using a forged document. That puts numerous people at risk eventually, especially now when there is a lot of focus on this situation and new regulations.

Everything within reason is being done to assist him to legally find work. I don't know if that's possible with out a degree, but he has been pointed in the direction of places that may be able to do that--thanks in part to this forum and others.

Again, many thanks.

[marshall]

The degree wasn't checked because he came from another school and already had a teacher's license. Now, that said, at that time, we didn't routinely check a degree anyway. It wasn't a requirement and the presumption, for the most part, was that people were honest.

People were occasionally checked because it seemed clear that they weren't what they presented themselves as. And sometimes these folks checked out as OK.

On more than one occasion people have turned in fake Master's Degrees. It was flagged and they were confronted. In those instances they had a legitimate Bachelor's Degree and they were accepted based on that. The Master's wasn't filed with the MOE. etc.

I am sorry that some people see the school as being complicit in this. Most schools, ourselves included, don't have the manpower to be "investigators". When I interview people and they present documents my assumption is that they are legitimate. If they come with a valid work permit and teacher's license then I presume the previous school has checked them out.

The same is true with the police clearances. We get folks who submit a police clearance from the last place (country) they worked and it's accepted by the MOE. I am not at this point going through their passport thoroughly to find everywhere they've been and writing to the police in those different countries.

By and large, most people are basically honest. The main thing you see is a bit of embellishment.

if he had a license from a other school when you employed him, he cant work for your school with that licese. you should have went through the procedure of a new foriegn employee starting with you. so 50/50 let him go, and learn from your mistakes.

[carnival1200]

turn a blind eye

Would you turn a blind eye to a Dr with a fake degree treating you?

Why accept a fraud?

Whats with the Degree thing!  A carpenter doesnt need a degree to teach an apprentice; a mother doesnt need a degree to teach a child her naitive language; a politicain in Thailand doesnt need a degree to bec

me an MP - oh, so

rry they do      If you understood anything about teaching ESOL you would know that in most of the world a degree is not required - nice but not necessary

[Scott]

The difficulty is that now having a degree is the law here in Thailand as is verifying the authenticity of the degree--which was why it was further authenticated when he came to our school. At that time, the procedure was much simpler and it was easy to change the non-B visa

It isn't very easy anymore.

[El Taco Loco]

^^ It isn't the law, sir. It is a requirement. Other govt. agencies do not require it. I hope you find cheese wherever you work...

[OxfordWill]

And the reason I said I hope you don't supervise people is that your post came across as if you have a moral standard that you would impose on your employees when considering to fire them for the same infraction, and you still have not convinced me otherwise...in your last post you say if he goes to church may be relevant to the OP in this case. why?

Because the person making the decision (in this case Scott) is the agent upon whom the moral responsibility has been placed.

It is understandably easy to think that by adhering to laws, rules, policies etc we are "protected" from making our own personal moral judgements about people but in actual fact there is no way to avoid the responsibility and I prefer to follow my own reason than to search for a policy/rule/law to shift the responsibility to. I am not suggesting that is what happened in this case- I have no reason to think Scott didn't decide based on his own coherent thinking. It may be that I also would have fired the guy, but my point was only to address the mechanics of the process of the decision making and not the decision itself as I felt that many replies were going the "find a universal rule" route, which I feel is a dangerous way of making decisions (assuming one cares about being ethical).

I absolutely do have a moral outlook on my employees, I have avoided firing an employee previously when I knew it would affect his life too badly at that point in time. But it is not the same as firing someone because they do not fit your own moral standard- that I have never done, my moral standards are far too low and most people I look up to including the people who work for me.

[Xangsamhua]

But it is not the same as firing someone because they do not fit your own moral standard- that I have never done, my moral standards are far too low and most people I look up to including the people who work for me.

Methinks you are too self-deprecating.

[sylvafern]

I might add that nothing was said to the rest of the staff concerning the circumstances under which the teacher left the school. It was up to him to explain/not explain his circumstances. A few people have asked and I have told them that I am not at liberty to discuss it, but they can contact him.

Except that you have posted all of this on a public forum .... anyone at your school, or even the guy in question, could be members on Thaivisa and they will instantly put two and two together. I think it is morally wrong that you have discussed this on an open and public forum. I feel very sorry for the guy ... he did something wrong, he's been punished .... but does he need it talked about in public?? It's a no-brainer situation - he had to be fired and he was .... what was the need for discussing it in a public forum? Why not ask some of your professional colleagues if you weren't exactly sure how to handle the situation ... you are obviously in management so I am sure you would have connections at other schools whom you could talk to confidentially.

Also, for those that said the 'snitch' should also be punished - I personally disagree if the situation was that they genuinely had concerns about this teacher (not just a personal vendetta). If they were concerned about his teaching or goings on in the classroom, then they had a professional responsibility to report to a member of management.