The Constitutional Tribunal Disbands Thai Rak Thai - Election cheating

[larvidchr]

Why is everyone so worried about elections? Is pushing back elections that big of a deal? I would much perfer the elections pushed back then to allow TRT off the hook and back into Parliment. How has your life in Thailand changed these last 8 months? How has Thailand changed these last 8 months?

TRT needs to be done away with. The guys on top should be behind bars.

Are you really telling me that they arent going to be find anyone else willing to run for office in Thailand?

Yes indeed, why have elections at all!! , and why concern yourself with 14 million TRT members rights to have a party, it must be the biggest mass sentence in history by a countrys high court, this decision have convicted them all of crimes perpetrated, if true, by 100 people, fair sure!! and lenient to, after all they are not putting all 14 million in jail are they!!

Have my life changed in the last 8 month, no not a lot, im retired and dont have to depend on turists, im not in the property market, so my livelihood is not under threath, unlike some of my friends who have seen everything grind to a almost total stop. And the price of beer is the same.

These where the important issues.

Then there is a bit of nit picking about 65 million Thais loosing their basic rights, living their lifes with a gunbarrel stuck down their throats. Why should I have any understanding about basic human rights, why should I have a problem with, the people of the country where I have choosen to live not being free.

No indeed, If I have a personal issue with somebody, like you have with TRT, I to, would want it to be setteld to my satisfaction over any rights of 65 million people, thats only fair, I think.

Now things have been dealt with according to your wishes, you can crawl back to the cave where your stoneage thought proces can evolve, all be it slowly

Have a nice day

I am sure most TV members are old enough to remember that controvercial decisions made under dictatorships, never stand the test of time, be it in Chile or the former Eastern communist regimes, I hope, I in the years to come will be able to find these many "happy posts" again, if I then could, I would mail them to you with salt and pebber, because your are surely going to eat your words sometime in the future

With the kindest regards

Edited June 3, 2007 by larvidchr

[hammered]

Here is a brief summary of where SE Asia is since the 1997 crash from the A-Times

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IF02Ae02.html

[larvidchr]

Every election in Thailand has been corrupt to the core - name one that wasn't. What does it matter if TRT has incorporated the canvasser network, and the Democrats have formed coalitions with parties that embodied that network - it is the same result. Corruption in Thai politics have been there before Thaksin, and will be there after Thaksin. At least TRT has given some back to the rural areas.

People wanted Thaksin to step down? Well, that is what elections are for. Formulate policies, contest on that platform, and let people decide.

The PAD? A vocal minority with very little rural support, and that mostly only from provincial cities. Read the interview with Sondhi Limthongkul on the Asia Times website - there he even confirms that the PAD was mostly urban, and representing the aspirations of the Thai Chinese middle class.

What are you talking about Chuan? Chuan has retired a long time before the snap elections. Abhisit was the candidate, was chosen to head the Democrats after the catastrophic 2005 campaign by Banyat.

What about the CTX scandal? Things like this happened always in Thailand. Chuan 1 government fell because the Sor Por Kor 401 scandal, in which vast stretches of land reserved for the poor were found to be owned by corrupt MPs of the Democrats.

And you can be sure that the same problem still exists, regardless of party, or profession even.

Why on earth would Thaksin have turned dicatator suddenly then, after having formed the government 5 years, having been the first PM in Thailand that has served his full 4 years and was even re-elected.

Like Thaksin or not, and i don't, but people did vote for him. That is democracy.

ColPyat thank you for your many very good posts on this issue, you are an island of salvation and sanity in the middel of a rageing sea.

Kindest regards

Edited June 3, 2007 by larvidchr

[hammered]

The one track mind anti-Thaksin mob miss the point on the amnesty proposal and Khun Surayud's recent speech for the usual reason that they are unable to consider politics in a broad context.

It is also becoming clear that the CNS may have misinterpreted

This forum is a microcosm of the way the Thai's think. It does not matter if the judgement was just or unjust, It's changed no ones mind here that I can see and probably has not changed one Thai's either. It's just as polarized now as it was a year ago.

If the CNS wants their referendum to have any chance of passing then they need the support of the TRT voters. At the moment they are losing by at least 15 million votes before they start. They also look more like a dictatorship now than they did on the 29th.

There was a good article/Interview on the Channel NewsAsia's website with Dr Thitinan Pongsudhirak of Bangkok's Chulalongkorn University.

Article

"The Democrat party has been given a huge political windfall, undeserved in my view because all of this fraud, the election law violations that led to this guilty verdict of Thai Rak Thai was instigated I must say by the boycott.

"The Democrat party boycotted the April 2006 election which led to the electoral fraud by Thai Rak Thai, which led to the annulment and so on and so on to the culmination with the coup and then this trial - so political party scene will be realigned. We will see whether Thai Rak Thai - now that it has been dissolved - whether it can regroup.

I would suggest a complete read of this article for anyon interested in the current situatin. It says a lot more than justa bout the Dems including a lot about the TRT and their voter future, the military and it does also state that evidence against TRT was strong and dissolution was expected although not the big ban.

[ColPyat]

I am not going to predict things getting as ugly as you mention, nor is my view the same as yours vis a vis the people living in the city, but I did start this conversation saying that the people upcountry need to unify into one, cohesive political voice. That is the only way they can benefit long term, even if this process takes long term. I doubt few would have a problem with this if it is done through the democratic process and by a group which does not have plans to rape and pilage the country along the way.

It is easier said than done, upcountry people forming themselves into a cohesive voice. Different than Marxists i see very little evidence of many such parties and movements having been formed without the initiation of people from the educated middle or upper classes.

And if you look at the history in Thailand, you can see that such attempts of genuine people's movements that could have been a threat were always cut short by different strategies, ranging from state sponsored volunteer organizations to assassination of leaders of such movements.

Many such people have found themselves in the TRT, which was a strange and almost impossible alliance between big money and social reformers (and extreme nationalists as well). Yes, i know that many social reformers have left TRT out of disappointment, but the argumentation of the ones that stayed, that they have at least initiated some much needed reforms, has a point as well.

What many people forget - here in Thailand (and elsewhere) it is not about suddenly miraculously having a democracy and a just society, best ordered from above. It is about slow moves, full of struggles against old elites (and new elites) with unsatisfying compromises. Anything else will result in a catastrophe.

Personally, i wonder why the newly empowered ISOC escapes attention here in these debates. This is maybe the worst thing that could possibly have been set up, far worse than anything that Thaksin has done. We have now in Thailand a mechanism responsible for internal security (and as we see from Thai history - this can have wide ranging definitions) that is only responsible to the Army, and not the parliament.

Thaksin raping and pillaging the country is hyperbole. The country has always been used as a drive by shop with freebies by the powerful. But now we are back into the country being under the iron grip of the military and the traditional elites.

[hammered]

The Chiang Rai rally interests me more. 1000 kamnan and village headmen is a lot. It could be a government inspired rally but Chiang Rai has for long been controlled by a very nasty TRT family invovled in very nasty activities (Shawn Crisipin touched on this and some relief in CR over the fall of TRT in an aritcle some time back). Could their political demise actually be something welcomed up there even if for unjustified reasons? This could get very complicated if unforseen reactions start to occur.

That is something very difficult to confirm either way, if such protests are spontaneous citicen protests, or government ordered gatherings. Remember Gen. Pallop's statement on the ISOC's 700 000 supporters?

The Government has access to all these very nationalistic state sponsored, armed and unarmed volunteer organizations under authority of mostly Army, Police and the powerful Ministry of Interior (and now under the powerful ISOC, responsible for internal security), so you can clearly expect that use is made of them. This is a network unknown to most foreigners (and even more than a few Thais). You can also expect that this network is going to be used in order to get the new constitution confirmed.

Colpyat agree with that. 1000 Kamnan and village headmen are going to deliver up a lot of Chiang Rai votes whatver reason they are rallying. The interesting thing is that this is in the herat of TRT country and indicates that one way or the other the miltary boys have been forming alliances.

[Abrak]

Boonklee denies he plans to lead new Thai Rak Thai

Boonklee Plangsiri dismissed a news report on Friday that he will become new leader of dissolved Thai Rak Thai party after it is revived.

Boonklee said he would never enter politics.

Boonklee, a former Shin Corp chief, said he is now running his own business and has not been interested in politics. He is a right hand man of exiled prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

- The Nation

===========================

No word yet if Ho Ching, the CEO of Temasek, will accept the positon.

Now that the idea of an amnesty for ex-TRT members seems to be receding it will be interesting to see who Somsak et al. throw their weight behind. To be honest I cant see them going with either Sanoh/Purachai or over to Democrats/Banharn/Mahachon so they are in need of a new acceptable leader. Noone obvious jumps to mind. That's why Bonnklee's name - despite never having political ambitions - has come out of the woodwork.

I wonder who else they might choose? Surely they wont go for a complete dinosaur like Chavalit?

Edited June 3, 2007 by Abrak

[Gnarpjohan]

Just got some info from a Thai farmer family in central Thailand. It turns out that the rice harvest was bad for them this year: problems with insects, low rice price (reduced subsidies under the new government) and high cost for chemicals results in literally a lack of food on the table.

The lower rice subsidies and high cost for chemicals is hardly an isolated phenomenon. For what it is worth, this should affect the sentiment among the majority of Thailand's population that are farmers. They can no longer vote for the party that subsidised the rice and made life easier.

[highdiver]

This forum is a microcosm of the way the Thai's think.

Sorry but that is not the case.

Here's my take.This forum reflects the thinking of certain sections of the farang community both onshore and onshore.Not all the expatriate community is well represented:for example relatively few upper level corporate types seem to be present.

The forum is very far from being a microcosm of the way Thais think.

finally some sense.

i was speaking last night to thais who are definatly aware of local politics. they all said the ruling was fair.

they are more then aware of the response of TRT executives who are now doing anything they can to save face.

[Siripon]

Maybe it will go back to business as usual. This is a distinct possibility.

And that is the big problem, there we would be back at square one.

Business as usual in the Thailand i remember was life is good in the city, and the upcountry folks have to be happy with what is given to them, and are not supposed to say anything, are good for cutey little folk sort of stuff, so that the ones in the city can feel good about themselves that they live in such a great culture.

Problem though is that things are a bit different, and upcountry folks have seen TRT as the first party that has given them a voice (i know - TRT did not exactly give them much of a voice, but it is a question of perception).

I just don't see the Democrats changing themselves to the extend that they are able to give those upcountry folks a voice, imagined, or even real. Regardless the name - the Democrats are a very conservative party.

We desperately need an alternative to TRT's populist policies, and that is a party that represents these people. If we don't get that very quickly - than things in the future, in a few years, might turn very ugly here.

I am not going to predict things getting as ugly as you mention, nor is my view the same as yours vis a vis the people living in the city, but I did start this conversation saying that the people upcountry need to unify into one, cohesive political voice. That is the only way they can benefit long term, even if this process takes long term. I doubt few would have a problem with this if it is done through the democratic process and by a group which does not have plans to rape and pilage the country along the way.

A main factor for TRT's success was Thaksin's ability through his vast funds to buy up all available politicians, divide the factions and from then on rule in his one man show style. Note his dictatorial style at cabinet meetings, everyone else afraid to speak.

Now if he's out of the picture how could rural politics develop?

The history of western countries shows us rapid industrialisation led to a concentration of rural turned urban peasants\ working class, able through negotiations, strikes and at times bitter battles, to improve their living conditions and human rights.

But rural Thailand isn't so uniform. Hundreds of thousands of Issanites and northerners are presently living in countries around the world working hard and remitting money home to their families. A lot of those families with their motorbikes and pickups have lives far more pleasant than the average Bangkokian who's choking to death on pollution and lack of personal space.

They voted for TRT for the benefits but they hardly see themselves as a deprived sector of society. Disadvantaged groups abound, ie the Pak Moon dam victims, forced to give up fishing when the dams gates were closed but even there there's conflicts between them and another group of villagers who want the gates shut all year round. In fact everytime a dam is proposed there's conflict between those who gain from irrigation and those who lose their land.

Land reform is essential but it's not easy to make a living off a few rai, unless you're prepared to shun a consumerist lifestyle, and few Thais are ready for that. Thus many, maybe most of the young drift to urban centres for work, Chonburi, Rayong, etc. But they frequently change jobs, unions are weak and there's little sense of a labour movement. Many as well go back to their villages for protracted periods.

Pride in their local politicians takes preference over class issues, the folks from Suphanburi love Banharn for developing their town, people in Korat loved Chartchai. In Klong Toei it's Prateep and the TRT pilot Siti.

The wage levels in Thailand for manual jobs are deplorable but it's hard to see how those working in such a large variety of jobs and areas can unite to imrove their conditions.

[thaigene2]

All the debating aside - and there have been some great posts here - let's return to the core of what hapened.

Working class thais and peasant farmers have just had their knees cut out from under them and their voices drowned out by a compliant Establishment-supporting media. It beggars belief that the only party that did anything at all for the huge majority of poor people in Thailand has been forced to close and its entire political force barred from activity for 5 years because of exposed corruption within its senior ranks.

It is virtually impossible for the disenfranchised majority of people in this country to resurrect a grassroots populist-policy party prior to the election.

Effectively, this means the Hi-So Establishment party wins the election. Convenient timing?

The Democrats have been in power on and off for what - 60 years? Thai people in the countryside are as poor as ever. Chuan Leek Pai was a nice guy - but so what? So is Anand. You can have all the rich hi-so academics in the country join the Democrats, and pontificate about this development model and that one. What difference would it make?

Nope, the reality is that we've just witnessed the rich people making it crystal clear - anyone wants to try to upset their applecart and they will be squashed like a bug under the wheel of their Benz.

[SiamSquare123]

"Nope, the reality is that we've just witnessed the rich people making it crystal clear - anyone wants to try to upset their applecart and they will be squashed like a bug under the wheel of their Benz."

Yes, Taskin and TRT were angels....

[Abrak]

I think there should be some perspective here. When everyone is talking about corruption? We are only talking about bribing a couple of politicians to join a political race. Hardly a cap[ital crime?

To me it is amazing that everyone can get so worked up about it.I cant see how the sentence - banning 111 executives for 5 years - fits the crime.

[ColPyat]

Maybe it will go back to business as usual. This is a distinct possibility.

And that is the big problem, there we would be back at square one.

Business as usual in the Thailand i remember was life is good in the city, and the upcountry folks have to be happy with what is given to them, and are not supposed to say anything, are good for cutey little folk sort of stuff, so that the ones in the city can feel good about themselves that they live in such a great culture.

Problem though is that things are a bit different, and upcountry folks have seen TRT as the first party that has given them a voice (i know - TRT did not exactly give them much of a voice, but it is a question of perception).

I just don't see the Democrats changing themselves to the extend that they are able to give those upcountry folks a voice, imagined, or even real. Regardless the name - the Democrats are a very conservative party.

We desperately need an alternative to TRT's populist policies, and that is a party that represents these people. If we don't get that very quickly - than things in the future, in a few years, might turn very ugly here.

I am not going to predict things getting as ugly as you mention, nor is my view the same as yours vis a vis the people living in the city, but I did start this conversation saying that the people upcountry need to unify into one, cohesive political voice. That is the only way they can benefit long term, even if this process takes long term. I doubt few would have a problem with this if it is done through the democratic process and by a group which does not have plans to rape and pilage the country along the way.

A main factor for TRT's success was Thaksin's ability through his vast funds to buy up all available politicians, divide the factions and from then on rule in his one man show style. Note his dictatorial style at cabinet meetings, everyone else afraid to speak.

Now if he's out of the picture how could rural politics develop?

The history of western countries shows us rapid industrialisation led to a concentration of rural turned urban peasants\ working class, able through negotiations, strikes and at times bitter battles, to improve their living conditions and human rights.

But rural Thailand isn't so uniform. Hundreds of thousands of Issanites and northerners are presently living in countries around the world working hard and remitting money home to their families. A lot of those families with their motorbikes and pickups have lives far more pleasant than the average Bangkokian who's choking to death on pollution and lack of personal space.

They voted for TRT for the benefits but they hardly see themselves as a deprived sector of society. Disadvantaged groups abound, ie the Pak Moon dam victims, forced to give up fishing when the dams gates were closed but even there there's conflicts between them and another group of villagers who want the gates shut all year round. In fact everytime a dam is proposed there's conflict between those who gain from irrigation and those who lose their land.

Land reform is essential but it's not easy to make a living off a few rai, unless you're prepared to shun a consumerist lifestyle, and few Thais are ready for that. Thus many, maybe most of the young drift to urban centres for work, Chonburi, Rayong, etc. But they frequently change jobs, unions are weak and there's little sense of a labour movement. Many as well go back to their villages for protracted periods.

Pride in their local politicians takes preference over class issues, the folks from Suphanburi love Banharn for developing their town, people in Korat loved Chartchai. In Klong Toei it's Prateep and the TRT pilot Siti.

The wage levels in Thailand for manual jobs are deplorable but it's hard to see how those working in such a large variety of jobs and areas can unite to imrove their conditions.

I do somewhat agree with your analyzes on the diversity of the countryside and their urban counterparts/migrants.

But also in the west things were not as uniform as you make them out to be. Thailand isn't that different, or special.

Yes, hundred thousands of rural Thais live and work in foreign countries. But the picture is not as rosy as you make it out. Yes, many have managed to acquire some wealth through this. But many others have barely managed to pay back their initial loans for the huge fees asked for by the agents. I do know several who have managed to save after years of work under often very bad conditions only about 100 000 Baht, which was spent on improvements of their house, paying a few debts, and maybe a secind hand motorcycle. Not exactly a comfortable life.

There is one village i know which does live very comfortably on remittances from foreign countries - but that is solely through prostitution. And that has caused a whole lot of different set of problems in that village - such as a localized real estate bubble, enormous social pressure on local women to enter prostitution, and several suicides under the male population of that village. Well, and even for Thailand a huge rate of alcoholism.

Mostly from the '97 crises onwards rural Thailand had a unprecedented rate of drug addiction, that should be more than an indication for the fact that things are not as happy as they are made out to be. These people are under-privileged, and know very well of that fact. TRT became their voice, mostly through the lack of any alternative. Yes, before you say it - TRT as a whole is not what i consider a progressive force, and has incorporated the old canvasser system and patron - client system.

But - name me an alternative.

[ColPyat]

Yes, Taskin and TRT were angels....

Is that now your "substantial" contribution to the discussion, and the extend of your education on Thailand's problems?

[John K]

To challenge the ruling and override it is just bad news all the way around. No doubt the comment was made without thinking it through.

First what seems to be universally accepted is the ruling moved Thai politics to a new level of respect, essentially an upgrade. Bad politicians will be punished.

Second the bad guys in this case the TRT would gain face and the judges would lose face. Seeing as how HRH put so much into seeing the ruling was fair and well explained, there could be some face damage there too. For HRH to not only once but twice communicate directly to the judges, stepping between them should not be taken lightly and certainly not a place anyone dare go in their right mind.

Third to whoever overrides the ruling will be seen as sending the wrong message to the Thais as well as the world, do significant damage to their own face, and increase the risk of elevated unrest.

The possibility of Thaksin money influencing decisions about this is a very real possibility. It has already been suggested once that the PM may be in Thaksin’s pocket.

It is time for the Thais put the TRT behind them and look forward to healing the country from the harm they caused.

[ando]

The objective of the coup was to change the government of course. Unfortunately for the military, it was a popular government supported by the majority of voters. There is no way the junta could hand back democracy to the people and expect TRT NOT to win again unless they were eliminated from the political scene. I fully expect the junta to over-rule the courts and allow the former TRT executives to compete in the forthcoming elections so as to at least give some semblance of a fair and democratic process. Not to do so would make the whole coup process a fairly transparent laughing stock and generate an underlying resentment among the majority of the countries voters which would be likely to erupt some time down the track.

[hammered]

The objective of the coup was to change the government of course. Unfortunately for the military, it was a popular government supported by the majority of voters. There is no way the junta could hand back democracy to the people and expect TRT NOT to win again unless they were eliminated from the political scene. I fully expect the junta to over-rule the courts and allow the former TRT executives to compete in the forthcoming elections so as to at least give some semblance of a fair and democratic process. Not to do so would make the whole coup process a fairly transparent laughing stock and generate an underlying resentment among the majority of the countries voters which would be likely to erupt some time down the track.

It could be more complicated than the Junta just grant an amnesty. Of course the majority of the military want to give an amnesty to the segments of TRT that they plan on allying with in elections. From the sped of Gen. Sonthi's remarks it seems obvious they got a verdict they neiither expected or wanted. Yes TRT dissolution was always going to happen and as argued by Khun Thitinan was probably legally sound. However thye didnt expect mopre than some token bannigs and now they have all their allies wiped out. On top of this the Dems are off scott free and the miltary dont want them in power as they are too high minded and unpredictable in many ways.

The problem is that even those who have criticised the court decision are now saying the amnesty makes no sense. On top of this Gen. Sararyud the PM may not agree with a quick amnesty. The governemtn are not the militray and we have frequently been told of differences of opinion. It could be dificult to convinvce them that a quick amnesty is needed so the pro-military prty can be set up pronto. Then there is the question of the few highminded rather than self serving TRT execs. Maybe they wont accept an amnesty if they believe they are innocenmt. To accept one means to accept prior guilt.

This is not a simple as it looks.

[sriracha john]

Seems like there's been a lot of misinformation getting passed around over this issue of amnesty. Need to go back and trace these articles from their source as Sonthi never initiated the proposals and says he was misquoted in reports attributing the idea to him. Instead, it came from various NLA members.

Even stranger is that even IF the proposal would somehow, someday, actually come to pass, the TRT would not accept it, preferring instead to proffer the notion that since they are not guilty of anything, they wouldn't feel right about accepting an amnesty.

All of that and more in the latest from MCOT

http://etna.mcot.net/

*edit... with apologies for bringing this to light... as it will change the points and contentions that several posters have made necessitating a reassessment of their thesis...

but then that's the hazard one runs into in Thailand... news can turn on a dime and jumping out with comments on the first reports of any issue or anything comes with inherent risks....

such as being completely wrong about an issue or a point.

Edited June 3, 2007 by sriracha john

[John K]

Sj, you could have just said 60-20-20

[CL0R0X]

Every election in Thailand has been corrupt to the core - name one that wasn't. What does it matter if TRT has incorporated the canvasser network, and the Democrats have formed coalitions with parties that embodied that network - it is the same result. Corruption in Thai politics have been there before Thaksin, and will be there after Thaksin. At least TRT has given some back to the rural areas.

corruption belong to the corrupt, who have done wrong is already wrong, who did not do wrong are not yet wrong, Abhisit as a new leader, he have not done wrong yet there for he is not wrong or corrpt, to you it seem like every politician in Thailand are corrupt, get your facts straight.

People wanted Thaksin to step down? Well, that is what elections are for. Formulate policies, contest on that platform, and let people decide.

The PAD? A vocal minority with very little rural support, and that mostly only from provincial cities. Read the interview with Sondhi Limthongkul on the Asia Times website - there he even confirms that the PAD was mostly urban, and representing the aspirations of the Thai Chinese middle class.

PAD are regular people like you and me, they are not in politic, they have no power to change, they have the right to said whatever they want, Thaksin as a government have the power to destroy what he don't like, you also forget election is just a tool, you can rig the tool to benifit yourself, as what haksin did to himself to be sure win.

What are you talking about Chuan? Chuan has retired a long time before the snap elections. Abhisit was the candidate, was chosen to head the Democrats after the catastrophic 2005 campaign by Banyat.

it wasn't about Chuan being PM, 3 year ago the TRT accuse Chuan of doing something wrong, they (the TRT) smash him left and right, but when Chuan turn to speak to defend himself they shut him off, they said he wasn't allow to speak, imagine that total control by thug, the Democrate decided to have a walk out, even Thaksin himself loose face of his own people can be so thug.

What about the CTX scandal?

either you don't know anything about CTX case, or that you have no knowledge about Thai politic

Things like this happened always in Thailand. Chuan 1 government fell because the Sor Por Kor 401 scandal, in which vast stretches of land reserved for the poor were found to be owned by corrupt MPs of the Democrats.

1 corruption MP does not count for the rest of Democrate, Chuan was a good PM he does not condone corruption, and never done corruption, compare to your belove TRT, every major MP in the TRT are so corrupt that is in your face style, and the corruption number 1 is Thaksin himself, what a disgrace PM

And you can be sure that the same problem still exists, regardless of party, or profession even.

there is always good and evil, good fighting evil, just like what happen now getting rid of evil, maybe that something you will never understand, in your little mind you will think that every human being is evil, i pitty you.

Why on earth would Thaksin have turned dicatator suddenly then, after having formed the government 5 years, having been the first PM in Thailand that has served his full 4 years and was even re-elected.

i pitty that you don't see it coming, Thaksin are addictive to rule Thailand, did you that he own every part of the government even the independ one, he bought off every branches, to give you another fact, he was about to reshuffle the military, guest what the next general in line was his buddy and so the rest of the command line, when something smell rotten it is because it is rotten.

Like Thaksin or not, and i don't, but people did vote for him. That is democracy.

no they didn't vote for him, he buy their vote, Democracy is not about black and white, its about right and wrong.

[sriracha john]

Every election in Thailand has been corrupt to the core - name one that wasn't. What does it matter if TRT has incorporated the canvasser network, and the Democrats have formed coalitions with parties that embodied that network - it is the same result. Corruption in Thai politics have been there before Thaksin, and will be there after Thaksin. At least TRT has given some back to the rural areas.

corruption belong to the corrupt, who have done wrong is already wrong, who did not do wrong are not yet wrong, Abhisit as a new leader, he have not done wrong yet there for he is not wrong or corrpt, to you it seem like every politician in Thailand are corrupt, get your facts straight.

People wanted Thaksin to step down? Well, that is what elections are for. Formulate policies, contest on that platform, and let people decide.

The PAD? A vocal minority with very little rural support, and that mostly only from provincial cities. Read the interview with Sondhi Limthongkul on the Asia Times website - there he even confirms that the PAD was mostly urban, and representing the aspirations of the Thai Chinese middle class.

PAD are regular people like you and me, they are not in politic, they have no power to change, they have the right to said whatever they want, Thaksin as a government have the power to destroy what he don't like, you also forget election is just a tool, you can rig the tool to benifit yourself, as what haksin did to himself to be sure win.

What are you talking about Chuan? Chuan has retired a long time before the snap elections. Abhisit was the candidate, was chosen to head the Democrats after the catastrophic 2005 campaign by Banyat.

it wasn't about Chuan being PM, 3 year ago the TRT accuse Chuan of doing something wrong, they (the TRT) smash him left and right, but when Chuan turn to speak to defend himself they shut him off, they said he wasn't allow to speak, imagine that total control by thug, the Democrate decided to have a walk out, even Thaksin himself loose face of his own people can be so thug.

What about the CTX scandal?

either you don't know anything about CTX case, or that you have no knowledge about Thai politic

Things like this happened always in Thailand. Chuan 1 government fell because the Sor Por Kor 401 scandal, in which vast stretches of land reserved for the poor were found to be owned by corrupt MPs of the Democrats.

1 corruption MP does not count for the rest of Democrate, Chuan was a good PM he does not condone corruption, and never done corruption, compare to your belove TRT, every major MP in the TRT are so corrupt that is in your face style, and the corruption number 1 is Thaksin himself, what a disgrace PM

And you can be sure that the same problem still exists, regardless of party, or profession even.

there is always good and evil, good fighting evil, just like what happen now getting rid of evil, maybe that something you will never understand, in your little mind you will think that every human being is evil, i pitty you.

Why on earth would Thaksin have turned dicatator suddenly then, after having formed the government 5 years, having been the first PM in Thailand that has served his full 4 years and was even re-elected.

i pitty that you don't see it coming, Thaksin are addictive to rule Thailand, did you that he own every part of the government even the independ one, he bought off every branches, to give you another fact, he was about to reshuffle the military, guest what the next general in line was his buddy and so the rest of the command line, when something smell rotten it is because it is rotten.

Like Thaksin or not, and i don't, but people did vote for him. That is democracy.

no they didn't vote for him, he buy their vote, Democracy is not about black and white, its about right and wrong.

The second song on Hendrix's Band of Gypsys album comes to mind.

[ColPyat]

there is always good and evil, good fighting evil, just like what happen now getting rid of evil, maybe that something you will never understand, in your little mind you will think that every human being is evil, i pitty you.

I am not going through this again...

[lukamar]

Seems like there's been a lot of misinformation getting passed around over this issue of amnesty. Need to go back and trace these articles from their source as Sonthi never initiated the proposals and says he was misquoted in reports attributing the idea to him. Instead, it came from various NLA members.

"Gen Sonthi, according to a source, said a certain individual, whom he refused to name, had recommended the amnesty idea to him. Could the amnesty idea be the CNS' response to a verdict which defied its expectations?" BKKPost

"For the sake of national reconciliation, I support the idea of giving them amnesty," Sonthi said. "The CNS as a whole agrees with the idea," Sonthi said, referring to the Council for National Security, as the coup leaders call themselves." Channel 11 television Interview

"Surayud said Council for National Security's chief Gen Sonthi Bunyaratglin raised the idea with him during a meeting on Saturday morning.

"He asked me whether it is ok if he told the public about it. I told him that it is fine because it is still an idea and his own idea," Surayud said in a news talk television program.

I went back and traced.... Sounds to me like it was General S who initiated the idea or possibly after someone who he would not name whispered it to him. He came out with it on TV11 in an interview, it's hard to be misquoted when they have it on tape.

Edited June 3, 2007 by lukamar

[tettyan]

Things like this happened always in Thailand. Chuan 1 government fell because the Sor Por Kor 401 scandal, in which vast stretches of land reserved for the poor were found to be owned by corrupt MPs of the Democrats.

1 corruption MP does not count for the rest of Democrate, Chuan was a good PM he does not condone corruption, and never done corruption, compare to your belove TRT, every major MP in the TRT are so corrupt that is in your face style, and the corruption number 1 is Thaksin himself, what a disgrace PM

I've got nothing against Chuan, I have the utmost respect for him.

But there was more than just 1 MP in on the Sor Por Kor 401 scandal. But I assume when you say "1 corruption MP" you're referring to the MP who was at the center of the scandal - Suthem Theuksuban. You think after helping bring down the Chuan I gov't, the Democrats would have banished him to the political wilderness.

But no! What was the first thing that Abhisit did when he became leader of the Democrats? Appoint Suthep as Secretary-General of the party!

Don't get me wrong, I (and I think ColPyat does too) see the Democrats as the lesser of two evils. But to most of the population, charges of corruption leveled by the Dems against TRT ring hollow, for good reason. While Chuan and Abhisit may be clean, their governments were still corrupt. They had to form coaltions with the likes of Montri Pongpanich, even the infamous Newin Chidchop (who later became Thaksin's hatchet man). Even the party itself contained questionable figures - including Kamman Sia, the "godfather" of Kanchanaburi. Yongyuth "the Refrigirator," also a Thaksin hatchet-man, used to be Chuan's man in the north.

Not surprising that during the Chuan II gov't, scandals broke out at the rate of once-a-month. I think many Thais still have a lot of respect for Chuan, but they were tired of seeing him show off his cleanliness while everyone around him behind the closets were eating all they could get.

From the perspective of the average rural Thai then, do you go with the slightly less corrupt party or the party that actually delivers the goodies to your hitherto neglected corner of the country? Personally, as a principled person, I would go with the slightly less corrupt - but I understand that many Thais don't have the luxury of that kind of choice.

[ColPyat]

Don't get me wrong, I (and I think ColPyat does too) see the Democrats as the lesser of two evils.

I really don't know anymore, i am very confused at the moment. Until bit more than a year ago i would have definitely said so.

I was shocked and terribly disappointed when the Democrats have refused to participate in the elections.

I don't know, but i guess i will have to wait for the time when political activities are allowed again, and will wait and see if and which policies the Democrats have formulated, and then, in case they form the government - what they are going to do. Until then - lets see.

[nick2k]

Seems like there's been a lot of misinformation getting passed around over this issue of amnesty. Need to go back and trace these articles from their source as Sonthi never initiated the proposals and says he was misquoted in reports attributing the idea to him. Instead, it came from various NLA members.

"Gen Sonthi, according to a source, said a certain individual, whom he refused to name, had recommended the amnesty idea to him. Could the amnesty idea be the CNS' response to a verdict which defied its expectations?" BKKPost

"For the sake of national reconciliation, I support the idea of giving them amnesty," Sonthi said. "The CNS as a whole agrees with the idea," Sonthi said, referring to the Council for National Security, as the coup leaders call themselves." Channel 11 television Interview

"Surayud said Council for National Security's chief Gen Sonthi Bunyaratglin raised the idea with him during a meeting on Saturday morning.

"He asked me whether it is ok if he told the public about it. I told him that it is fine because it is still an idea and his own idea," Surayud said in a news talk television program.

I went back and traced.... Sounds to me like it was General S who initiated the idea or possibly after someone who he would not name whispered it to him. He came out with it on TV11 in an interview, it's hard to be misquoted when they have it on tape.

there is only one person with this much influence.....

[Tony Clifton]

Seems like there's been a lot of misinformation getting passed around over this issue of amnesty. Need to go back and trace these articles from their source as Sonthi never initiated the proposals and says he was misquoted in reports attributing the idea to him. Instead, it came from various NLA members.

"Gen Sonthi, according to a source, said a certain individual, whom he refused to name, had recommended the amnesty idea to him. Could the amnesty idea be the CNS' response to a verdict which defied its expectations?" BKKPost

"For the sake of national reconciliation, I support the idea of giving them amnesty," Sonthi said. "The CNS as a whole agrees with the idea," Sonthi said, referring to the Council for National Security, as the coup leaders call themselves." Channel 11 television Interview

"Surayud said Council for National Security's chief Gen Sonthi Bunyaratglin raised the idea with him during a meeting on Saturday morning.

"He asked me whether it is ok if he told the public about it. I told him that it is fine because it is still an idea and his own idea," Surayud said in a news talk television program.

I went back and traced.... Sounds to me like it was General S who initiated the idea or possibly after someone who he would not name whispered it to him. He came out with it on TV11 in an interview, it's hard to be misquoted when they have it on tape.

there is only one person with this much influence.....

...who has nothing to do with the rumour of amnesty.

[mumbu]

Seems like there's been a lot of misinformation getting passed around over this issue of amnesty. Need to go back and trace these articles from their source as Sonthi never initiated the proposals and says he was misquoted in reports attributing the idea to him. Instead, it came from various NLA members.

"Gen Sonthi, according to a source, said a certain individual, whom he refused to name, had recommended the amnesty idea to him. Could the amnesty idea be the CNS' response to a verdict which defied its expectations?" BKKPost

"For the sake of national reconciliation, I support the idea of giving them amnesty," Sonthi said. "The CNS as a whole agrees with the idea," Sonthi said, referring to the Council for National Security, as the coup leaders call themselves." Channel 11 television Interview

"Surayud said Council for National Security's chief Gen Sonthi Bunyaratglin raised the idea with him during a meeting on Saturday morning.

"He asked me whether it is ok if he told the public about it. I told him that it is fine because it is still an idea and his own idea," Surayud said in a news talk television program.

I went back and traced.... Sounds to me like it was General S who initiated the idea or possibly after someone who he would not name whispered it to him. He came out with it on TV11 in an interview, it's hard to be misquoted when they have it on tape.

there is only one person with this much influence.....

...who has nothing to do with the rumour of amnesty.

And how do you know that? You seem to like to make various sweeping, higly biased statements without ever bothering to justify them. Whether several members of TRT be pardoned or not, is really of no importance. The major damage is done by dissolution of TRT and nobody in current leadreshio seem to question that.

What is important here is a clear rift between CNS and Sirayut.

I presume. Sirayut is gone within a couple of weeks. Though on the surface he is against the pardon and Sohnti initiated it, in reality that would be bad for any chance of having elections as scheduled and probably will mean further strengthening of junta.

[lukamar]

What everyone forgets is that the 2 verdicts set major precedents that will guide all future cases. The first one allowed an outside group not officially running in the election TO actively campaign against the election process. Prior to the Democrat acquittal that was against the EC rules but now with the new precedent it's an open battlefield next time. Lets see if 111 pi**ed off banned politicians will use the same tactic in the next election, they can expend any amount of capital as they do not have to meet the EC maximum requirements, in fact they don't have to meet any EC requirements now as long as they don't slander anyone. Maybe they will mount a "NO Vote campaign" now that it's Officially Legal to do so and the merry-go-round can start all over with no quorum, no government and no hope of filling in the political divide.