Thai Face

[a2396]

This stuff all goes hand-in-hand with the general lack of a rational thought process, little or no understanding of cause & effect, and short attention spans. There is little distinction between so-called face saving and outright lying. Not exactly characteristics to move the society "onward & upward".

[fabianfred]

this face thing has always been a problem in Asia....

the Japanese Samurai would rather die than lose face... as the Japanese forces in WW2... to surrender was worse than dying

it is a pity in Thailand.... where Buddhism teaches to destroy the ego..... and Face is all about ego..... but then how many of any religion actually practise it??

[Briggsy]

Here's a thought to ponder.

Imagine being from a poor background, probably rural ( = over 50% of the Thai population). In your situation your property ( if you have any ) could be taken, you could be beaten up, your daughter raped, in fact, any member of your family could be murdered with impunity by high-ranking military and police officers, civil servants, politicians (local or national ), businesspeople, in fact, anyone worth over, say, one million dollars and their immediate family and aides ( = say, 2% of the Thai population). How would that change the way you deal with people, particularly those whose status you are unsure about?

Now, consider how many people you have made angry in, say, the last 5 years. If you truly were a peasant in the above situation, what would the outcome of the conflict have been?

Now, consider how you might react if you were in the latter group, the 'elite', and a poor person defied you or offended you in some way. You could pretty much do what you liked to them with impunity. How many of us could truly say being in such a privileged situation would not warp our (currently outraged) morals?

Just a thought

[lannarebirth]

this face thing has always been a problem in Asia....

the Japanese Samurai would rather die than lose face... as the Japanese forces in WW2... to surrender was worse than dying

it is a pity in Thailand.... where Buddhism teaches to destroy the ego..... and Face is all about ego..... but then how many of any religion actually practise it??

I agree with this to a certain extent. Take the Japanese minister who committed suicide last week as an example. He didn't kill himself because because he'd lost face for being corrupt. He killed himself because he'd been caught being corrupt and was about to get his comeuppance. He didn't seem to care that he'd lost face for committing malfeasance, but only that he might be held accountable for doing so.

[qwertz]

Face is not exclusively a Thai thing, it's human nature.

I've seen people face out lethal or suicidal situations rather than apologise, back down, give way or walk away in one piece.

Consider the driving habits alone as an example in whatever land you're from.

[zzdocxx]

Here's a thought to ponder.

Imagine being from a poor background, probably rural ( = over 50% of the Thai population). In your situation your property ( if you have any ) could be taken, you could be beaten up, your daughter raped, in fact, any member of your family could be murdered with impunity by high-ranking military and police officers, civil servants, politicians (local or national ), businesspeople, in fact, anyone worth over, say, one million dollars and their immediate family and aides ( = say, 2% of the Thai population). How would that change the way you deal with people, particularly those whose status you are unsure about?

Now, consider how many people you have made angry in, say, the last 5 years. If you truly were a peasant in the above situation, what would the outcome of the conflict have been?

Now, consider how you might react if you were in the latter group, the 'elite', and a poor person defied you or offended you in some way. You could pretty much do what you liked to them with impunity. How many of us could truly say being in such a privileged situation would not warp our (currently outraged) morals?

Just a thought

Would anyone care to comment or add to the above?

[farang prince]

I have lost count of all the times when the taxi driver does not know where he is, or how to get to the address I gave him.

He has his face up against the window, trying to navigate by reading the signs.

I can understand this, and especially if he came to Bangkok a few days ago, and not knowing his way around.

But never ever do they stop and ask other drivers for help/directions.

Never!

And this is unique to Thailand? Do you know any guys, anywhere in the world, that stop for directions?

[kmart]

Here's a thought to ponder.

Imagine being from a poor background, probably rural ( = over 50% of the Thai population). In your situation your property ( if you have any ) could be taken, you could be beaten up, your daughter raped, in fact, any member of your family could be murdered with impunity by high-ranking military and police officers, civil servants, politicians (local or national ), businesspeople, in fact, anyone worth over, say, one million dollars and their immediate family and aides ( = say, 2% of the Thai population). How would that change the way you deal with people, particularly those whose status you are unsure about?

Now, consider how many people you have made angry in, say, the last 5 years. If you truly were a peasant in the above situation, what would the outcome of the conflict have been?

Now, consider how you might react if you were in the latter group, the 'elite', and a poor person defied you or offended you in some way. You could pretty much do what you liked to them with impunity. How many of us could truly say being in such a privileged situation would not warp our (currently outraged) morals?

Just a thought

Would anyone care to comment or add to the above?

Yes me. People who have to put up with stuff like that do so because they haven't had the backbone / moral fibre to ever stop licking the boot that kicks them. A bit like every country gets the government they deserve. It sounds awful but its the basic truth... The worst excesses of human nature can only be curbed by its reverse qualities.... My morals aren't outraged at all.

"Face" = cultural deficiency.

[sukanyacondo]

I have lost count of all the times when the taxi driver does not know where he is, or how to get to the address I gave him.

He has his face up against the window, trying to navigate by reading the signs.

I can understand this, and especially if he came to Bangkok a few days ago, and not knowing his way around.

But never ever do they stop and ask other drivers for help/directions.

Never!

And this is unique to Thailand? Do you know any guys, anywhere in the world, that stop for directions?

Yes see my OP I often ask if I could speak good Thai I,d ask them a million things just for curiosity!

[sukanyacondo]

Here's a thought to ponder.

Imagine being from a poor background, probably rural ( = over 50% of the Thai population). In your situation your property ( if you have any ) could be taken, you could be beaten up, your daughter raped, in fact, any member of your family could be murdered with impunity by high-ranking military and police officers, civil servants, politicians (local or national ), businesspeople, in fact, anyone worth over, say, one million dollars and their immediate family and aides ( = say, 2% of the Thai population). How would that change the way you deal with people, particularly those whose status you are unsure about?

Now, consider how many people you have made angry in, say, the last 5 years. If you truly were a peasant in the above situation, what would the outcome of the conflict have been?

Now, consider how you might react if you were in the latter group, the 'elite', and a poor person defied you or offended you in some way. You could pretty much do what you liked to them with impunity. How many of us could truly say being in such a privileged situation would not warp our (currently outraged) morals?

Just a thought

Would anyone care to comment or add to the above?

Yes me. People who have to put up with stuff like that do so because they haven't had the backbone / moral fibre to ever stop licking the boot that kicks them. A bit like every country gets the government they deserve. It sounds awful but its the basic truth... The worst excesses of human nature can only be curbed by its reverse qualities.... My morals aren't outraged at all.

"Face" = cultural deficiency.

Sadly I am coming to the same conclusion "face" is nothing but a waste of time and the countries full abilities to rise up from being third to first world.

[pampal]

Here's a thought to ponder.

Imagine being from a poor background, probably rural ( = over 50% of the Thai population). In your situation your property ( if you have any ) could be taken, you could be beaten up, your daughter raped, in fact, any member of your family could be murdered with impunity by high-ranking military and police officers, civil servants, politicians (local or national ), businesspeople, in fact, anyone worth over, say, one million dollars and their immediate family and aides ( = say, 2% of the Thai population). How would that change the way you deal with people, particularly those whose status you are unsure about?

Now, consider how many people you have made angry in, say, the last 5 years. If you truly were a peasant in the above situation, what would the outcome of the conflict have been?

Now, consider how you might react if you were in the latter group, the 'elite', and a poor person defied you or offended you in some way. You could pretty much do what you liked to them with impunity. How many of us could truly say being in such a privileged situation would not warp our (currently outraged) morals?

Just a thought

Would anyone care to comment or add to the above?

Yes me. People who have to put up with stuff like that do so because they haven't had the backbone / moral fibre to ever stop licking the boot that kicks them. A bit like every country gets the government they deserve. It sounds awful but its the basic truth... The worst excesses of human nature can only be curbed by its reverse qualities.... My morals aren't outraged at all.

"Face" = cultural deficiency.

Sadly I am coming to the same conclusion "face" is nothing but a waste of time and the countries full abilities to rise up from being third to first world.

Interesting, do you consider Japan to be in the third world?

Face is very big in Japan.

[highdiver]

i agree that Thai Visa forum memebers are entitled to views, ideas and even at some cases just plain flaming.

however the display of igonerence by what seems like a big bunch of educaated people is a disaster.

shame on you guys.

if you want to know what is the value of face then make an effort to learn it.

there are posts here that mix up the whole thai and even the asian culturemixinfg diferent values and calling them face. or attributing the fact that some guy gave you wrong directions to it.

there are different values in Asia that may seem difeerent and strange but expressing views basesd on gossip and heresay is downright stupid.

As some mebers have posted the "face"thing is all over Asia. in plain words it covers about 70% of the humans on earth. yet a baunch of over patronising farnags seem to dismees it . the worst remark was

"face" is nothing but a waste of time and the countries full abilities to rise up from being third to first world.

if most of humanity is using the Face. it will be wise to learn and understand it before making ignorant remarks.

[qwertz]

IMO, "face" is international.

Some call it prestige, others call it pride, status or esteem.

It all depends on where you are and who you're dealing with.

It can be the guy next door who must have a bigger car than you.

Or his wife who has to have a mink coat because the neighbour's wife has one.

Or the guy who uses his car to threaten the car in front because the woman driver cut in on him.

Or the guy who gets a kicking from somebody harder because he just can't walk away from a threat.

Or the boss who pins the blame for failures on his staff rather than admit he lost the plot.

Or that infuriating Thai that you have to humour, even though he's totally wrong.

Because you've been warned that "face" is all important in LOS.

Losing face says it all.

"Face" people are losers and face is BS.

And they perpetuate the BS because it's a good cover for their inadequacies.

Do as pepe advises in the parallel thread, smile 'em down.

And if you can't do that, avoid them.

[sukanyacondo]

I have no intentions of learning it it is all bull!! It has caused countless problems from what I see, so I dont know the answer ok Ill lie thru my teeth. So If I ask Japanese person the same questions I ask Thais Ill get the same responses??

Some face is worse than others Thais do take it to a different level a ridiculous level.

Just beacsue most people use it doesnt make it any good does it????

[sukanyacondo]

High Diver perhaps youd like to explain face to me instead of flaming then?????????? How can I learn if you dont tell me? you seem to know all about it?? and I "did" ask at the start of the topic, Maybe I am ignorant??? (Oh my god Ive lost face) Even my wife who,s Thai does not understand , yes she's a poor girl from Issan and so should fit into the "Brigsy's" reply earlier category, even she says to me "why" do they do things like this? is she also Ignorant??? or maybe even she is not wanting to lose face by agreeing with me? see how stupid face is now getting?

From what Ive seen so far it is all bull and excuse in many ways to be lazy, to not look stupid, which in effect makes you look even more stupid when I drive up the road to not see a petrol station, a way to hide your failings.

I dont ,mind losing face IF you explain, same as the reply about Japanes face I had never thought of that but still think that face is holding Thailand back ( along with the corruption at all levels) because of the ridiculous level its taken to I mean how daft is just saying "Im sorry I dont know where the petrol station is? or then saying you could try asking x y or z farther on???

PLEASE EXPLAIN THANKS

[solo siam]

NO, sukanyacondo, is actually spot on. Saying "I don't know" loses them face as they appear to be inadequate in front of you, but creating a bullshit story and then you discovering that it was bullshit when they're not there is ok. They will tell you they'll be at a place (as arranged) at a certain time but not make it, because they don't like giving bad news. People n Bangkok have clocks and watches but can blame the traffic or whatever, people out of town don't worry about 'actual' time and don't need to blame anything.

It's all about face and my wife won't even ask for directions for one (or both0 of two reasons... asking means you don't know an dthe answser is often not true.

Face face face. Get used to it, be amazed by it and accept it. At the end of the day, us westerners are the same, but in a different way.

Why would they not know where the local petrol station is?

Perhaps the OP missed it, or it was after a turning - sounds more like miscommunication than face.

[sukanyacondo]

Once I would say yes but I repeat my wife asked shes Thai there was no misunderstanding as far as I could tell but we asked "4" people only the last one told us where it was and it was within 1 km of the first person we asked.

[sukanyacondo]

There is the possibility they did not have a car and never needed petrol??? so maybe didnt know?

[sukanyacondo]

I am interested what "Thais" think about the "face" idea? For instance on one occasion when looking for a petrol sation I asked several people with my Thai wife alongside me "where is one" they all pointed and said "down the road and left". We followed the road on two occasions and nothing. Even my wife was baffled why they should do this?

So are there any Thais here that can explain to me because as a farang I see it all as just a waste fo time. I can see the idea is not to look foolish or maybe "all knowing" but after they have said this to me I then think how daft they are so this then defeats there face objective.

This is NOT a bash I am interested in "why"

If my wife thinks they are nuts then what do other Thais think?

I mean If I asked Thai " can you build me a 3 storey house in a week" would they all say yes not to lose face?? Where does reality set in for them ?

This is my original post I wanted to know "why" and from what I have experienced in Thailand my opinion is still thesame. I dont know who is Thai here and who is not I asked "what Thais thought" about this in the hope of understanding it more and not to be "ignorant" how can I learn if I dont ask?

[zzdocxx]

What I really meant to ask, apart from the "face" issue, is to what extent the conditions described below exist in Thailand, and what if any personal knowledge of this forum members may have. I suppose it could go in a different thread but anyway I am just wondering. Thanks.

Here's a thought to ponder.

Imagine being from a poor background, probably rural ( = over 50% of the Thai population). In your situation your property ( if you have any ) could be taken, you could be beaten up, your daughter raped, in fact, any member of your family could be murdered with impunity by high-ranking military and police officers, civil servants, politicians (local or national ), businesspeople, in fact, anyone worth over, say, one million dollars and their immediate family and aides ( = say, 2% of the Thai population). How would that change the way you deal with people, particularly those whose status you are unsure about?

Now, consider how many people you have made angry in, say, the last 5 years. If you truly were a peasant in the above situation, what would the outcome of the conflict have been?

Now, consider how you might react if you were in the latter group, the 'elite', and a poor person defied you or offended you in some way. You could pretty much do what you liked to them with impunity. How many of us could truly say being in such a privileged situation would not warp our (currently outraged) morals?

Just a thought

[chuchok]

this face thing has always been a problem in Asia....

the Japanese Samurai would rather die than lose face... as the Japanese forces in WW2... to surrender was worse than dying

it is a pity in Thailand.... where Buddhism teaches to destroy the ego..... and Face is all about ego..... but then how many of any religion actually practise it??

I agree with this to a certain extent. Take the Japanese minister who committed suicide last week as an example. He didn't kill himself because because he'd lost face for being corrupt. He killed himself because he'd been caught being corrupt and was about to get his comeuppance. He didn't seem to care that he'd lost face for committing malfeasance, but only that he might be held accountable for doing so.

I don't quite agree.Now I don't know anything about the case above,so forgive my ramblings,but normally the difference here is not so much that he had been held accountable,but that he had been shame'd.Shame is the biggie here.You could also call it loss of face....??

[canuckamuck]

Thai directions are about as useful as the tits on a boar. Even my wife can’t give me directions to any store inside a local department store even tough she has been there at least three times a week during the last three years. Nor can she easily explain where she is in the store if I phone her. I usually have to find her on my own. BTW her English is excellent and she is by no means unintelligent.

That being said, any argument that defends face is dumb. Face = false information. Face is pride, pride makes you stupid. We are all guilty of protecting our ego once in a while, but in Asia, they take it to ridiculous lengths. Just tell me the truth, and I will esteem you much higher, even if you are quite dim. I can laugh at myself; I know I frequently make mistakes big deal. When’s the last time you met someone who was perfect?

[Mid]

When’s the last time you met someone who was perfect?

would be the last time , that much I know ............................