What's With All The Monks Smoking Cigarettes?

[Plus]

Wikipedia gives this quote from Hitchens book:

"above all, we are in need of a renewed Enlightenment, which will base itself on the proposition that the proper study of mankind is man, and woman. This Enlightenment will not need to depend, like its predecessors, on the heroic breakthroughs of a few gifted and exceptionally courageous people. It is within the compass of the average person. The study of literature and poetry, both for its own sake and for the eternal ethical questions with which it deals, can now easily depose the scrutiny of sacred texts that have been found to be corrupt and confected. The pursuit of unfettered scientific inquiry, and the availability of new findings to masses of people by electronic means, will revolutionize our concepts of research and development. Very importantly, the divorce between the sexual life and fear, and the sexual life and disease, and the sexual life and tyranny, can now at last be attempted, on the sole condition that we banish all religions from the discourse. And all this and more is, for the first time in our history, within the reach if not the grasp of everyone."

Doesn't sound like a "page turner" to me.

So he puts his hopes on "renewed Enlightenment" that among other things would also include study of literature and poetry instead of religion.

He says it is desperately needed, but what if it never comes? I wouldn't bet on people taking up poetry instead of Bible to fulfill their spiritual needs, which are undeniably there.

[banchang]

Wikipedia gives this quote from Hitchens book:

"above all, we are in need of a renewed Enlightenment, which will base itself on the proposition that the proper study of mankind is man, and woman. This Enlightenment will not need to depend, like its predecessors, on the heroic breakthroughs of a few gifted and exceptionally courageous people. It is within the compass of the average person. The study of literature and poetry, both for its own sake and for the eternal ethical questions with which it deals, can now easily depose the scrutiny of sacred texts that have been found to be corrupt and confected. The pursuit of unfettered scientific inquiry, and the availability of new findings to masses of people by electronic means, will revolutionize our concepts of research and development. Very importantly, the divorce between the sexual life and fear, and the sexual life and disease, and the sexual life and tyranny, can now at last be attempted, on the sole condition that we banish all religions from the discourse. And all this and more is, for the first time in our history, within the reach if not the grasp of everyone."

Doesn't sound like a "page turner" to me.

So he puts his hopes on "renewed Enlightenment" that among other things would also include study of literature and poetry instead of religion.

He says it is desperately needed, but what if it never comes? I wouldn't bet on people taking up poetry instead of Bible to fulfill their spiritual needs, which are undeniably there.

Try reading the book then you will be able to give a more enlightened review.

[fabianfred]

how someone else travels should have no bearing in your life should it?

One naturally tries to follow the monks, they are the enlightened ones...

they SHOULD be the ones working their way towards enlightenment.... but only about one percent are doing that.... and they are mostly forest living monks

In this case the trip was probably sponsored, not paid from their temple accounts. If you want monks to preside over opening ceremony of a your new department store, for example, you wouldn't want them to come on foot, you'll send a limo.

Part of a culture - money spent on monks and temples is not the same as money wasted on luxury items. For many it's an investment.

supposed to make merit..... like keeping a bank account in the black.... but it doesn't work like a bank account.... the positive and negative karma are in different accounts... they don't cancel each other out

[fabianfred]

Monks are not allowed to refuse gifts, and many Thai people strongly believe that offering things to monks gives them great religious merit, which can improve their next life. It's true some monks take advantage of this even though that is not allowed. As was said above, the monks were most likely given these tickets, possibly by the lay person in their company.

some monks (thammayut) will not handle money.... so they can refuse it.... also food which is improper (knows/sees/hears/suspects been killed for him)

[fabianfred]

how someone else travels should have no bearing in your life should it?

One naturally tries to follow the monks, they are the enlightened ones...

Puh-leese... you should read the new book "God is not Great", by the great British author Christopher Hitchens...

how religion poisons EVERYTHING.

But i'll admit that in Thailand, and with Buddhism, it poisons everything a little bit less than in any so called "western" country.

by the way you refer to the author as 'great' you obviously agree with his position on things....... but to say religion poisons is ridiculous

what is a so-called 'western' country.... either it is western or not.... meaning it isn't asian?

maybe you shouldn't come to the Buddhism forum ...if all you want to do is bash it

[jdinasia]

so ... it would be LESS hypocratic if monks HID and lied and obfuscated etc etc .... oi! But very simply ... how someone else travels should have no bearing in your life should it?

Do you know how air tickets were paid for? By whom? etc etc ? No ... just dreaming huh?

Please read more carefully... i made it quite clear that I had no idea who paid for their business class tickets. All I know is I sat in C, C, C:

Cramped, crowded, coach.

so it was jealousy? ok! I understand now

[fabianfred]

Facts are fine when programming robots, but when you deal with humans the subtleties of emotion, desire, and spirituality there can leave big gaps left if there's nothing to fill them.

I'm not saying the earth was created in six days or anything, just that there's more to life than the likes of Hitchens understand.

saatuu

[banchang]

how someone else travels should have no bearing in your life should it?

One naturally tries to follow the monks, they are the enlightened ones...

Puh-leese... you should read the new book "God is not Great", by the great British author Christopher Hitchens...

how religion poisons EVERYTHING.

But i'll admit that in Thailand, and with Buddhism, it poisons everything a little bit less than in any so called "western" country.

by the way you refer to the author as 'great' you obviously agree with his position on things....... but to say religion poisons is ridiculous

what is a so-called 'western' country.... either it is western or not.... meaning it isn't asian?

maybe you shouldn't come to the Buddhism forum ...if all you want to do is bash it

Maybe me ment "Great" as in Great Britain

Also Hitchens could be classed as "great" where as a god that isnt there canot be called great

[cdnvic]

Maybe me ment "Great" as in Great Britain

Also Hitchens could be classed as "great" where as a god that isnt there canot be called great

I'll ignore the horribly mangled sentence for now and;

1. Ask 100 people who God is and they'll all have their own answer.

2. Ask 100 people who Hitchens is and most of them will go "Who?".

Now who exists?

[farangsay]

supposed to make merit..... like keeping a bank account in the black.... but it doesn't work like a bank account.... the positive and negative karma are in different accounts... they don't cancel each other out

In that case , no more Mr nice guy !

[banchang]

Maybe me ment "Great" as in Great Britain

Also Hitchens could be classed as "great" where as a god that isnt there canot be called great

I'll ignore the horribly mangled sentence for now and;

1. Ask 100 people who God is and they'll all have their own answer.

2. Ask 100 people who Hitchens is and most of them will go "Who?".

Now who exists?

lets try

1. Ask 100 people who farther christmas is and they'll have their answer.

2. ask 100 people who cdnvic is and they will go "who"

People knowing fictional characters isnt a way of proving they exist.

Sorry about that mangled sentence , I must read what i type sometimes!

[cdnvic]

Actually, Father Christmas and cdnvic are both characters who are based on people who really exist/existed. The main difference is one is a symbol of celebration and joy, the other wears a red suit and gives out presents.

As for gods existing or not, it's no easier to prove the absence of a god than the existence of one, and the point is rather moot in a forum for discussing a philosophy that does not claim to have any gods.

[banchang]

Actually, Father Christmas and cdnvic are both characters who are based on people who really exist/existed. The main difference is one is a symbol of celebration and joy, the other wears a red suit and gives out presents.

As for gods existing or not, it's no easier to prove the absence of a god than the existence of one, and the point is rather moot in a forum for discussing a philosophy that does not claim to have any gods.

Point taken back to cigarettes then

[meadish_sweetball]

The main difference is one is a symbol of celebration and joy, the other wears a red suit and gives out presents.

You look really snazzy in red Vic. By the way, I would love a new 1 GB ram stick for my laptop.

[jumnien]

Anapanasati, or mindfulness of the breath, and contemplation of death are two common techniques used by meditation masters. What better way to combine the two than by smoking cigarettes?

[bankei]

In 25 years in Thailand I've never seen a monk asking for donations.

I am constantly being asked for donations by various monks - they ask for money, coke, jeans, t-shirts and one even asked me to buy him a motorbike!

It became so annoying that I just flatly say no and even had an argument with one monk (who smelt like wiskey) I told him monks do not need money and he replied that they did need money to buy things like cigarettes etc.

I would be pretty certain that this was a "lapsed" monk, or not one at all. Scam artists are not above donning a robe.

No, they are all legitimate monks, properly ordained at my local temple. However, the one that asked me to buy him a motorbike did later run off with a few hundred thousand B in temple donations, committing a parajika offence.

[bankei]

About a year ago, I was checking in a Bangkok airport, economy class, for a British Airways flight to Sydney. Nearby was the business class line, and there were four monks checking into business class on the same flight. They were accompanied by an Asian non-monk, also going business class. I will presume that they were not given free upgrades to business class, or they would have first checked in, in the economy line, like the rest of the "great unwashed", like me.

I do not know if the monks' temple/temples paid for the expensive tickets, or if someone else did, but it just looked bad to me. Economy tickets are about $700 for a roundtrip, and business class has to be a minimum of $3,000 for a roundtrip, maybe as much as $5,000. So basically, that's easily two or three THOUSAND dollars for EACH of the monk's, that otherwise could have gone to maybe help the poor, temple upkeep/repairs/utilities, or even buy cigarettes for the monks. There is no way I can justify anyone paying that money for business class tickets for monk travel, for any reason.

Thai Airways gives monks special discount tickets, special treatment and even upgrades.

[rahu07]

Frankly, In Spore, sometime we will see monks/nun carry their alms bowl asking for donation. I usually will just walk off. It's not right for them to ask for money. In thailand, all we do was giving them food and not money. Monks should not beg for money. Sad to say, there is always black sheep walking around. As for smoking wise, indeed many monks does smoke, some choose to eat betal nut instead.

[bluestamp]

Frankly, In Spore, sometime we will see monks/nun carry their alms bowl asking for donation. I usually will just walk off. It's not right for them to ask for money. In thailand, all we do was giving them food and not money. Monks should not beg for money. Sad to say, there is always black sheep walking around. As for smoking wise, indeed many monks does smoke, some choose to eat betal nut instead.

Yes, never give money to someone wearing a monks/nuns robe in the street / mall.

I heard lots of con man from china are doing this.

As for the smoking, I think as a lay person we should do our share to prevent them smoking. We should not give them money, nor cigarettes. And they should not ask for it right ? Cos if they ask for cigarettes, it means they are addicted to it, --> see precepts number 5. Cigarette is not a basic necessity..

[Plus]

Monks are very well versed in scriptures, they can give you enough quotes to justify selling their own mothers for profit if they feel so.

The problem is in lax Sangha supervision. Posters here often argue against organised religion but this is precisely why there needs to be a body to enforce the rules and keep scripture interpretations clean.

Unfortunately with the spread of democracy has influenced Sangha as well - everyone is free to do as he pleases. Pretty soon people in the West will start voting on whether there's God or not, as if their decisions are binding.

Religion doesn't work that way.

[chownah]

Monks are very well versed in scriptures, they can give you enough quotes to justify selling their own mothers for profit if they feel so.

This is wrong in every respect starting whith "Monks are very well versed in scriptures".

[chownah]

there needs to be a body to enforce the rules and keep scripture interpretations clean.

Scripture policing is something I would not want to see here or anywhere else.

[chownah]

Unfortunately with the spread of democracy has influenced Sangha as well - everyone is free to do as he pleases.

I'm not sure what democracy has to do with the behavior of monks......if there is a relationship, though, does this mean that democracy is a bad thing?

[garro]

I don't smoke myself but there are some very respected monks who do. Ajahn Chah liked the occasional cigarette.

I saw the following at;

http://members.shaw.ca/mioko/DharmaTalkHumanBeings.htm

“Ajahn Sumedho started out life at Ajahn Chah’s monastery as a very zealous, hyperkeen monk…he was convinced that Ajahn Chah was the greatest dharma teacher and the most enlightened master.” But, over time he noticed flaws in Ajahn Chah, such as smoking, gaining weight, and talking with people instead of meditating. He chided the dharma teacher in private and asked him to set a better example. He expected an intense reaction but instead “Ajahn Chah looked at him gently and said, ‘Well, I’m very grateful to you Sumedho for bringing up these things up to me. I’ll really consider what you’ve said and see what can be done. But also you should bear in mind that perhaps it’s a good thing that I’m not perfect. Otherwise you might be looking for the Buddha somewhere outside your own mind.’ There was a long and poignant silence. Then the young Sumedho crawled away simultaneously heartened and chastened.” (Amaro Bhikkhu)

[Plus]

Chownah, we've seen monks recommending killing of communists and, more recently, drug dealers. I'm pretty sure they can find some sort of justification in the scriptures if pressed.

This is by no means restricted to Buddhism as both christians and muslims always conveniently find scriptural support for whatever atrocities they are about to commit. All of them claim to be be true to Buddha, Chirst, or whoever else in whatever they do.

Smoking is a small thing but the pattern is the same.

"Scripture policing" is absolutely necessary if one wants to preserve both the spirit and law of the religion. Thais are fairly strict about this already and renegade sects, such as Santi Asoke, are not officially recognised as proper Buddhists. They even charged their leader for impersonating a "proper" monk once.

There's no place for democracy in religion. There's no universal suffrage in voting on spiritual matters. Usually any consultation with peers is called for when there are no clear guidelines either from the scriptures or seniors, or when community feels that seniors are making obvious mistakes.

[IMChris]

Everytime I see a Monk smoke it bothers me for some reason. I know for a fact that nicotine is a very addictive drug on par with Heroin. In fact it is easier to get someone off heroin then is smoking. It appears that almost every male Thai is smoking and the older women chew beetlenut. Im just curious as to how others view this problem. As a Nurse in the States I see frist hand as to what smoking has done to people and thier familys.

[Pepe']

I believe smoking is considered an unwholesome activity...

[garro]

Ajahn Chah smoked occasionally. He was also a very wise monk who helped many find the path. I think that it is important to not get caught in appearances. Here is a story about it;

Ajahn Sumedho started out life at Ajahn Chah's monastery as a very zealous, hyperkeen monk, he was convinced that Ajahn Chah was the greatest dharma teacher and the most enlightened master. But, over time he noticed flaws in Ajahn Chah, such as smoking, gaining weight, and talking with people instead of meditating. He chided the dharma teacher in private and asked him to set a better example. He expected an intense reaction but instead Ajahn Chah looked at him gently and said, Well, I'm very grateful to you Sumedho for bringing up these things up to me. I'll really consider what you've said and see what can be done. But also you should bear in mind that perhaps it's a good thing that I'm not perfect. Otherwise you might be looking for the Buddha somewhere outside your own mind. There was a long and poignant silence. Then the young Sumedho crawled away simultaneously heartened and chastened.� (Amaro Bhikkhu)

http://members.shaw.ca/mioko/DharmaTalkHumanBeings.htm

[sabaijai]

Search the Buddhism subforum for 'smoking' and you will find plenty of member input on this topic. Basically it's not covered by the precepts but in Thailand smoking by monks is officially banned inside monastery grounds.

[Spiny]

Everytime I see a Monk smoke it bothers me for some reason. I know for a fact that nicotine is a very addictive drug on par with Heroin. In fact it is easier to get someone off heroin then is smoking. It appears that almost every male Thai is smoking and the older women chew beetlenut. Im just curious as to how others view this problem. As a Nurse in the States I see frist hand as to what smoking has done to people and thier familys.

I have often considered entering monkhoob for some time but on observing that there is a predilection for monks to smoke means I would be unable to endure the community at the Wat as I am asthmatic