Ban On Political Party Activities Lifted

[Plus]

Even many of the TRT former MPs are not one-dimensionally pro Thaksin either as their public speeches suggest.

I agree, they are definitely not one-dimensionally pro-Thaksin. They are looking for new sugar daddies,... someone to butter their bread, anyone...

[hammered]

Then we sadly have Weng Tojirakarn.

The reason Dr. Weng is to be found protesting against the Junta is to be rooted in the '76 events. Personally - i believe he has a far wider view than the narrow discussion here circles around, which for the sake of i hate Thaksin diatribes leaves many more than uncomfortable events, actions and decisions out.

Even recent events, such attributing the drugwar killings and the other human rights violations only to Thaksin is a simplification of history, which may be comfortable to suit ones position, but does not stand up to closer scrutiny.

All this goes in a Thai tradition of whitewashing uncomfortable events seen necessary by the powerful to keep a facade. Shift all that blame and personalize it so that the many in the powerful circles can still benefit from a system that has been dysfunctional long before Thaksin has entered politics or even business.

I would suggest to look beyond the obvious - you will see that basic mechanisms that made the '70s - such as large Militias and paramilitary organizations not answerable to anyone but primarily the military and bureaucratic establishment - so instable and horrid are maybe slightly transformed and adapted, but essentially the same today. And from the backside, behind all the talk about law and purging Thaksin style corruption an overseeing panel outside parliamentary scrutiny - the revamped ISOC - has been smuggled in, and will stay beyond the next elections.

The question here is not just pro or anti-Thaksin even if the public debate, and the debate here on the forum, is limited to by the majority. The events have to be seen in a larger context of a decades old social struggle in Thailand, in which the Thaksin era was important, though just one of many others.

That is why you see many respected people protesting against the junta. There are clear similarities to the PAD, in which you saw people joining others whose political and social aims they did not share, but who felt that it was the smaller of two evils.

Dr. Weng briefly was part of the PAD, before he distanced himself from Sondhi L. and the PAD. Many others less publicized were part of the PAD for some time. The military coup though has changed a lot. The top leadership of the PAD may have sided with the coup leaders, and with it the majority of the supporters. Many others though saw the military coup as the worse of two evils and are now part of the anti junta protests.

As an outside observer, i feel that there is a pressing and urgent need for compromise, and not devilizing the anti junta protests, ridiculing them as Thaksin's lackeys, using the courts applying the letter of the law to some, while completely ignoring others misdeeds by not even bringing them to trial in the first place.

Even many of the TRT former MPs are not one-dimensionally pro Thaksin either as their public speeches suggest.

This is not going away. It may be suppressed for a few years at most, but in the end it will reappear because it is part of a much larger context.

Thai politics is in the process of radicalization, and increasingly moves to the streets, again. This is a very dangerous situation very possibly leading to a sort of dictatorship against which both Thaksin and the Junta are angels.

And you have an under-reported escalating war in the South that will blow up into our faces soon. We need stability based on a compromise, and not the enforced pseudo stability we have now.

I personally, not that my opinion matters too much, have no problem with people demonstrating against anything. What saddens me however, is once respected social critics lining themselves up with the TRT. Why abandon previously held principles? This is especially true now the TRT has been found guilty of rigging elections, yes the punishment maybe disputed but few dont accept TRTs guilt of the charge. It would not be too difficult to organize protests not linked to extremist TRT elements if principled wanted to steer clear of tainted politicians. It is sad to see social critics reduced to being part of politicl stunts like false accustions and Jatukarm give aways. imho.

As for compromise, I dont doubt it will happen. I would guess that some time after the next election an amnesty will be proposed and given to up to 108 previous TRT executive members. It may even be led or supported by the Democrats. That will allow the professional politicians to comeback together again. Even now the more powerful TRT politicians are starting to intimate they will accept the verdict. Newin, Suwat, Phinij and Somsak have all made non-confrontational statements. No doubt they will run proxies in their regions of control in the upcoming election. Most of these powerful guys will not expect to be out for more than a year or so. It is the less powerful ex-TRT politicians from regions where they are weak plus a group of leaderless ex-NAP TRT guys who need the instant fix and confrontation. They do not represent or control anywhere near all the TRT supporters. In the northern region villages where my wifes family has roots it is hard to find anyone who is going to join a demo. In these places TRT were previously popular with half to two thirds of the people. Now people just dont want to talk about politics, and even when offered money to travel to demos refuse. I cant speak fo the rest of the country but without the big hitters supporting it and with apathy PTV will struggle to produce the conflict it desires and without that a politcal compromise will be worked out to be enacted at a future date and no doubt after an election.

[Plus]

A nationwide network of Khon Rak Thaksin Mai Oaw Padejkarn (Supporters of Thaksin Against Dictatorship) has been officially established with some 60 former MPs of the dissolved Thai Rak Thai party as key leaders.

....

Membership is expected to reach 15 million people in 30 days, according to the network.

Lets see. Any chance of that really happening? I can't take these people seriously.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/07Jun2007_news01.php

[ColPyat]

Then we sadly have Weng Tojirakarn.

The reason Dr. Weng is to be found protesting against the Junta is to be rooted in the '76 events. Personally - i believe he has a far wider view than the narrow discussion here circles around, which for the sake of i hate Thaksin diatribes leaves many more than uncomfortable events, actions and decisions out.

Even recent events, such attributing the drugwar killings and the other human rights violations only to Thaksin is a simplification of history, which may be comfortable to suit ones position, but does not stand up to closer scrutiny.

All this goes in a Thai tradition of whitewashing uncomfortable events seen necessary by the powerful to keep a facade. Shift all that blame and personalize it so that the many in the powerful circles can still benefit from a system that has been dysfunctional long before Thaksin has entered politics or even business.

I would suggest to look beyond the obvious - you will see that basic mechanisms that made the '70s - such as large Militias and paramilitary organizations not answerable to anyone but primarily the military and bureaucratic establishment - so instable and horrid are maybe slightly transformed and adapted, but essentially the same today. And from the backside, behind all the talk about law and purging Thaksin style corruption an overseeing panel outside parliamentary scrutiny - the revamped ISOC - has been smuggled in, and will stay beyond the next elections.

The question here is not just pro or anti-Thaksin even if the public debate, and the debate here on the forum, is limited to by the majority. The events have to be seen in a larger context of a decades old social struggle in Thailand, in which the Thaksin era was important, though just one of many others.

That is why you see many respected people protesting against the junta. There are clear similarities to the PAD, in which you saw people joining others whose political and social aims they did not share, but who felt that it was the smaller of two evils.

Dr. Weng briefly was part of the PAD, before he distanced himself from Sondhi L. and the PAD. Many others less publicized were part of the PAD for some time. The military coup though has changed a lot. The top leadership of the PAD may have sided with the coup leaders, and with it the majority of the supporters. Many others though saw the military coup as the worse of two evils and are now part of the anti junta protests.

As an outside observer, i feel that there is a pressing and urgent need for compromise, and not devilizing the anti junta protests, ridiculing them as Thaksin's lackeys, using the courts applying the letter of the law to some, while completely ignoring others misdeeds by not even bringing them to trial in the first place.

Even many of the TRT former MPs are not one-dimensionally pro Thaksin either as their public speeches suggest.

This is not going away. It may be suppressed for a few years at most, but in the end it will reappear because it is part of a much larger context.

Thai politics is in the process of radicalization, and increasingly moves to the streets, again. This is a very dangerous situation very possibly leading to a sort of dictatorship against which both Thaksin and the Junta are angels.

And you have an under-reported escalating war in the South that will blow up into our faces soon. We need stability based on a compromise, and not the enforced pseudo stability we have now.

I personally, not that my opinion matters too much, have no problem with people demonstrating against anything. What saddens me however, is once respected social critics lining themselves up with the TRT. Why abandon previously held principles? This is especially true now the TRT has been found guilty of rigging elections, yes the punishment maybe disputed but few dont accept TRTs guilt of the charge. It would not be too difficult to organize protests not linked to extremist TRT elements if principled wanted to steer clear of tainted politicians. It is sad to see social critics reduced to being part of politicl stunts like false accustions and Jatukarm give aways. imho.

As for compromise, I dont doubt it will happen. I would guess that some time after the next election an amnesty will be proposed and given to up to 108 previous TRT executive members. It may even be led or supported by the Democrats. That will allow the professional politicians to comeback together again. Even now the more powerful TRT politicians are starting to intimate they will accept the verdict. Newin, Suwat, Phinij and Somsak have all made non-confrontational statements. No doubt they will run proxies in their regions of control in the upcoming election. Most of these powerful guys will not expect to be out for more than a year or so. It is the less powerful ex-TRT politicians from regions where they are weak plus a group of leaderless ex-NAP TRT guys who need the instant fix and confrontation. They do not represent or control anywhere near all the TRT supporters. In the northern region villages where my wifes family has roots it is hard to find anyone who is going to join a demo. In these places TRT were previously popular with half to two thirds of the people. Now people just dont want to talk about politics, and even when offered money to travel to demos refuse. I cant speak fo the rest of the country but without the big hitters supporting it and with apathy PTV will struggle to produce the conflict it desires and without that a politcal compromise will be worked out to be enacted at a future date and no doubt after an election.

It is a somewhat very similar situation with the PAD were respected social critics (and some of them now allied with the PTV) have joined a larger force with people whose aims are not what they claim to be. I feel sorry for them, because they are the very few untainted people in Thailand, though with no platform. They are always sidelined, not to disturb a dysfunctional though profitable system.

You mentioned the powerful ex TRT politicians. Yes, naturally they will look for new alliances. They are not though the most principled parts of TRT.

The less powerful politicians are often the ones with the principles, and exactly they are now primarily sidelined.

The Jatukham thing i personally found a novel idea, and a bit of comic relief. Even cops have taken some. I did too - i think it was a very interesting facet, but i have also two amulets in my collection that were given to the PAD guards in support. By making an issue out of it, such as ASTV and Sondhi L. having filed a case based on the accusation that the proper rituals were not observed (which they were, i believe) it is just turning into a war of attrition.

A compromise after the elections will be too late. The army will by then be completely entrenched.

[tijnebijn]

All evry complicated indeed thai politics.I do not have many opinions though,they are all mentioned,interesting to read guys.Only one thing I am wandering about.What if the Democrats come into power,if,do you think Thailand will be less nationalistic?Do the democrats,as their names says will lead the country more democratically?Is it more better for farang?Would be interesting to know any opinion,cause on what party my wife should take her vote?The last one she took was an empty one......

[hammered]

Then we sadly have Weng Tojirakarn.

The reason Dr. Weng is to be found protesting against the Junta is to be rooted in the '76 events. Personally - i believe he has a far wider view than the narrow discussion here circles around, which for the sake of i hate Thaksin diatribes leaves many more than uncomfortable events, actions and decisions out.

Even recent events, such attributing the drugwar killings and the other human rights violations only to Thaksin is a simplification of history, which may be comfortable to suit ones position, but does not stand up to closer scrutiny.

All this goes in a Thai tradition of whitewashing uncomfortable events seen necessary by the powerful to keep a facade. Shift all that blame and personalize it so that the many in the powerful circles can still benefit from a system that has been dysfunctional long before Thaksin has entered politics or even business.

I would suggest to look beyond the obvious - you will see that basic mechanisms that made the '70s - such as large Militias and paramilitary organizations not answerable to anyone but primarily the military and bureaucratic establishment - so instable and horrid are maybe slightly transformed and adapted, but essentially the same today. And from the backside, behind all the talk about law and purging Thaksin style corruption an overseeing panel outside parliamentary scrutiny - the revamped ISOC - has been smuggled in, and will stay beyond the next elections.

The question here is not just pro or anti-Thaksin even if the public debate, and the debate here on the forum, is limited to by the majority. The events have to be seen in a larger context of a decades old social struggle in Thailand, in which the Thaksin era was important, though just one of many others.

That is why you see many respected people protesting against the junta. There are clear similarities to the PAD, in which you saw people joining others whose political and social aims they did not share, but who felt that it was the smaller of two evils.

Dr. Weng briefly was part of the PAD, before he distanced himself from Sondhi L. and the PAD. Many others less publicized were part of the PAD for some time. The military coup though has changed a lot. The top leadership of the PAD may have sided with the coup leaders, and with it the majority of the supporters. Many others though saw the military coup as the worse of two evils and are now part of the anti junta protests.

As an outside observer, i feel that there is a pressing and urgent need for compromise, and not devilizing the anti junta protests, ridiculing them as Thaksin's lackeys, using the courts applying the letter of the law to some, while completely ignoring others misdeeds by not even bringing them to trial in the first place.

Even many of the TRT former MPs are not one-dimensionally pro Thaksin either as their public speeches suggest.

This is not going away. It may be suppressed for a few years at most, but in the end it will reappear because it is part of a much larger context.

Thai politics is in the process of radicalization, and increasingly moves to the streets, again. This is a very dangerous situation very possibly leading to a sort of dictatorship against which both Thaksin and the Junta are angels.

And you have an under-reported escalating war in the South that will blow up into our faces soon. We need stability based on a compromise, and not the enforced pseudo stability we have now.

I personally, not that my opinion matters too much, have no problem with people demonstrating against anything. What saddens me however, is once respected social critics lining themselves up with the TRT. Why abandon previously held principles? This is especially true now the TRT has been found guilty of rigging elections, yes the punishment maybe disputed but few dont accept TRTs guilt of the charge. It would not be too difficult to organize protests not linked to extremist TRT elements if principled wanted to steer clear of tainted politicians. It is sad to see social critics reduced to being part of politicl stunts like false accustions and Jatukarm give aways. imho.

As for compromise, I dont doubt it will happen. I would guess that some time after the next election an amnesty will be proposed and given to up to 108 previous TRT executive members. It may even be led or supported by the Democrats. That will allow the professional politicians to comeback together again. Even now the more powerful TRT politicians are starting to intimate they will accept the verdict. Newin, Suwat, Phinij and Somsak have all made non-confrontational statements. No doubt they will run proxies in their regions of control in the upcoming election. Most of these powerful guys will not expect to be out for more than a year or so. It is the less powerful ex-TRT politicians from regions where they are weak plus a group of leaderless ex-NAP TRT guys who need the instant fix and confrontation. They do not represent or control anywhere near all the TRT supporters. In the northern region villages where my wifes family has roots it is hard to find anyone who is going to join a demo. In these places TRT were previously popular with half to two thirds of the people. Now people just dont want to talk about politics, and even when offered money to travel to demos refuse. I cant speak fo the rest of the country but without the big hitters supporting it and with apathy PTV will struggle to produce the conflict it desires and without that a politcal compromise will be worked out to be enacted at a future date and no doubt after an election.

It is a somewhat very similar situation with the PAD were respected social critics (and some of them now allied with the PTV) have joined a larger force with people whose aims are not what they claim to be. I feel sorry for them, because they are the very few untainted people in Thailand, though with no platform. They are always sidelined, not to disturb a dysfunctional though profitable system.

You mentioned the powerful ex TRT politicians. Yes, naturally they will look for new alliances. They are not though the most principled parts of TRT.

The less powerful politicians are often the ones with the principles, and exactly they are now primarily sidelined.

The Jatukham thing i personally found a novel idea, and a bit of comic relief. Even cops have taken some. I did too - i think it was a very interesting facet, but i have also two amulets in my collection that were given to the PAD guards in support. By making an issue out of it, such as ASTV and Sondhi L. having filed a case based on the accusation that the proper rituals were not observed (which they were, i believe) it is just turning into a war of attrition.

A compromise after the elections will be too late. The army will by then be completely entrenched.

And that wont bother many politicians to be honest. They will still be back to do what they do and to prosper. And the banned politicians could even be at an advantage when they return as Thailand is going to have a couple of rocky years economically coming up. That with the South and a need to reunite will not be easy for any government to come out of looking good.

[sriracha john]

A nationwide network of Khon Rak Thaksin Mai Oaw Padejkarn (Supporters of Thaksin Against Dictatorship) has been officially established with some 60 former MPs of the dissolved Thai Rak Thai party as key leaders.

....

Membership is expected to reach 15 million people in 30 days, according to the network.

Lets see. Any chance of that really happening? I can't take these people seriously.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/07Jun2007_news01.php

The 1,000,000th Thai Elite card will be sold first.

[hammered]

All evry complicated indeed thai politics.I do not have many opinions though,they are all mentioned,interesting to read guys.Only one thing I am wandering about.What if the Democrats come into power,if,do you think Thailand will be less nationalistic?Do the democrats,as their names says will lead the country more democratically?Is it more better for farang?Would be interesting to know any opinion,cause on what party my wife should take her vote?The last one she took was an empty one......

It is hard to tell to be honest. If the Dems form a government it will in all likelihood be a coalition one. The Dems themsleves in western terms are probably a center-right party economically. It willbe intersting to see what policies they announce as they werer until the coup pretty much a party undergoing transition and not expecting to have a chance of power until the end of the decade or so. Abhisit is British educated and intelligent and could in noral times make a good PM. In the times we live uit will be difficult for any PM however. The Dems also have a number of highly intelligent and respected potetial ministers and are very strong a usual in the economic field. How they would get on wihtthe military is another question. The Dems and military are not close historically and there could be some conflict here. The Dems are probably the cleanest of Thai parties although that is not to say they do not have their dirtier members.It is hard to say if Thailand will become less nationalistic. In the short term i would expect things to remain the same or even become more nationalist and this has more to do with another matter which we shouldnt discuss than politics. However, there will probably be a loosening of restrictons on foreign firms to some degree just for practical reasons.

Maybe just let your wife make her own choice on who to vote for. By the way in most constituencies it is easy to call who will win. There are few swing ones. It is more which party will the local big man or his proxy run for.

[sriracha john]

'Ajarn Thaksin' sees the future

Ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra told a Tokyo news conference on Thursday that he has a dream - where Thailand is democratic, and he is teaching young people about business and management. The press conference was to announce his appointment as a guest lecturer at Takushoku University in Japan. He is slated to give his first lecture at Takushoku University on July 5, on Asian economic and business models.

"This is my first employment after being ousted. I've been unemployed for a while," Thaksin joked. "I've been trying to find a job ... as chairman of a soccer club, but it's not coming quick enough."

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=119282

[sriracha john]

A tale of two groups:

Democrat leader Abhisit Vejjajiva at a press conference at the party’s headquarters yesterday after the ban on political party activities was lifted.

Former Thai Rak Thai politicians join hands with their political allies in launching the Pro-Thaksin, Anti-Dictatorship Group at Rattanakosin Hotel yesterday.

[ColPyat]

A nationwide network of Khon Rak Thaksin Mai Oaw Padejkarn (Supporters of Thaksin Against Dictatorship) has been officially established with some 60 former MPs of the dissolved Thai Rak Thai party as key leaders.

....

Membership is expected to reach 15 million people in 30 days, according to the network.

Lets see. Any chance of that really happening? I can't take these people seriously.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/07Jun2007_news01.php

The 1,000,000th Thai Elite card will be sold first.

It's exactly the same way as with the PAD which claimed at the time to speak for the Thai people, even though in reality it just spoke for a relatively small sector of society (read Sondhi L.'s interview where he confirms this).

Also, expect further fiddling with the numbers, such as happened with the PAD, where demonstrations with 40 000 attendants were claimed to have had 200 000. We actually see the same now by the same newspaper that supported PAD fiddling, which now under reports the PTV numbers, making out of in excess of ten thousand less than 6000, and when about 5000 attended, only 1000 are reported.

You cannot trust anymore what is reported, and you have to have a look yourself.

[Plus]

PAD has resonated with millions of people judging by the success of their no vote campaign.

[ColPyat]

PAD has resonated with millions of people judging by the success of their no vote campaign.

The same old mistaken conclusion. People who would have voted for the Democrats or Chart Thai had to use the "No" option as their parties did not compete.

The "No" was a vote for the opposition parties, and not direct support for the PAD.

[Gnarpjohan]

Stop here for a second - what if wrong folks CANNOT be peacefully voted out? What to do then?

Meaning what? Elections would have been held if the army had not intervened. I haven't seen any allegations of rigged elections.

It should have been up to the majority of the people to decide if Thaksin should stay in power out or not.

Wow I can’t believe you said that. They just sent the TRT packing because of that.

Thaksin was manipulating everything from behind the scenes. Everything from having his goons go after peaceful protesters to buying votes wholesale. What we are saying is if this was a fair run election I would agree with you 110%, but Thaksin has never been known to play fair. He would have won the election by fraud and stand behind it as 100% legal and democratic.

There are several threads to that effect here, please take the time to read them.

From my point of view, business-minded Thaksin saw a market opportunity in the system one person=one vote. In cooperation with some other folks, he realized that by appealing to the unrepresented majority of people in Thailand, he had a good chance of grasping the power. This is to some extent fine, after all, politics is a lot about appealing to the masses. And democracy in practice means majority rule.

But then there are issues about his marketing strategy. Taking measures to prevent malpractices such as votes for cash would have been a good thing. I can even accept the use of force in order to secure a fair election, to make sure that opponents can speak openly without fear of "TRT goons" and that security/good practice is guaranteed at the locations where people vote. Sending goons after opponents is something he/the goons should be punished for, to the extent it happened. On the other hand, a long list could be made of injustices by anti-Thaksin fanatics (not to mention the coup).

But proper response should have been to try to beat Thaksin in his own game, i.e. appeal to the masses with countermeasures while (legitimately) criticizing TRT and Thaksin for all the obvious flaws. Here is a clip from another "The Nation" editorial in March, 2006, before the election in April that was boycotted by the Democrats:

...(the election) "fails to take into consideration a major fallacy of the concept, particularly in a less-developed democracy like ours, in which the impoverished, poorly informed masses are easily manipulated by people of his ilk.

This is exactly the attitude I have problems with. It seems to me that the main problem for real democracy in Thailand is that a bunch of urban upper/middle class royalist Bangkokians are not ready to hand over real power to the "poorly informed masses". It's like people aren't trusted to know what is good for them, which is totally absurd. Or perhaps, closer to the truth, distribution of wealth as a consequence of political power of the "poorly informed masses" is not appreciated by some.

The person who believes that the coup was about "restoring democracy" is the naive one, if you ask me.

From what I could understand from news media, the army staged the coup largely as a response to the power struggle between the police (Thaksin's camp) and the army. Thaksin and his folks were in the process of ousting a bunch of high-ranking officers and replacing them with cronies, a pill they could not swallow.

The cooperation between the "Blue Blood Jet Set" and military to stage a coup is what I meant with "feudal powers protecting its own". They knew they could not beat Thaksin even if elections were ever so fair. Better then a coup, to hel_l with the majority vote, it's only farmers anyway.

[Ricardo]

A nationwide network of Khon Rak Thaksin Mai Oaw Padejkarn (Supporters of Thaksin Against Dictatorship) has been officially established with some 60 former MPs of the dissolved Thai Rak Thai party as key leaders.

....

Membership is expected to reach 15 million people in 30 days, according to the network.

Lets see. Any chance of that really happening? I can't take these people seriously.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/07Jun2007_news01.php

Perhaps this figure includes all Manchester City supporters worldwide ?

PAD has resonated with millions of people judging by the success of their no vote campaign.

The same old mistaken conclusion. People who would have voted for the Democrats or Chart Thai had to use the "No" option as their parties did not compete.

The "No" was a vote for the opposition parties, and not direct support for the PAD.

I would suggest that the same logic applies, when claiming that 14 million people who voted for TRT, is the same thing as 14 million party-members.

Gnarpjohan, thanks for your fuller explanation of your views, and a personal welcome to TV & the debate. It's always good to get new posters contributing.

But since you've demonstrated that you were following events last year, would you still claim, that there were no allegations of election-rigging ?

And if Thaksin was following his (limited) business-experience, and aiming for a close-to-monopoly electoral situation, would that still have been in the consumers' best interests ? Or did the regulatory-authorities (the military) have to do their job and step in ?

[Plus]

PAD has resonated with millions of people judging by the success of their no vote campaign.

The same old mistaken conclusion. People who would have voted for the Democrats or Chart Thai had to use the "No" option as their parties did not compete.

The "No" was a vote for the opposition parties, and not direct support for the PAD.

Re-examining history in action. It was impossible to argue that a year ago but now it seems like you can't miss an opportunity to kick up the dust and cloud the issue.

Those who were there know the score, as SJ said.

[ColPyat]

PAD has resonated with millions of people judging by the success of their no vote campaign.

The same old mistaken conclusion. People who would have voted for the Democrats or Chart Thai had to use the "No" option as their parties did not compete.

The "No" was a vote for the opposition parties, and not direct support for the PAD.

Re-examining history in action. It was impossible to argue that a year ago but now it seems like you can't miss an opportunity to kick up the dust and cloud the issue.

Those who were there know the score, as SJ said.

A year ago it was impossible to argue against a vile mob of fanatic Thaksin opponents shouting abuse and never supporting their views with either evidence or personal experience. That mob of fence sitters is still failing to show any credible evidence of their views other that knowingly impartial newspaper articles, while at the same time ignoring and rubbishing every peer reviewed analyzes that does not conform to their simplistic opinions. Which are almost all papers.

That does not make history, but just a sad footnote on an internet discussion forum. Fortunately, thank god, history is written by the same people i quote.

[jdinasia]

Hard to agrue that MILLIONS more people than voted for the Demos just a year before voted NO ....Seemingly hard to argue that the PAD informed even MORE millions of people about Thaksin's greed and excess <but apparently someone can argue that> Why there were not even more NO votes could be because people in some areas REALLY liked Thaksin .... it also could be because they needed $$ ... or were in debt already due to populist schemes ... or someone locally TOLD them how to vote ....

But the events do speak to a RAPID degeneration of support for TRT in a period of only a few months! Culminating in the Shin sale ... and shortly thereafter a hardpressed PM dissolving parlaiment to delay action against him!

but that is only how I see it <and a few million others> and not nec the reality

[Plus]

A year ago it was impossible to argue against a vile mob of fanatic Thaksin opponents shouting abuse and never supporting their views with either evidence or personal experience. That mob of fence sitters is still failing to show any credible evidence of their views other that knowingly impartial newspaper articles....

Errr... you mean to say that all corruption charges against Thaksin are fake? How's that for objectivity or re-examining history!

That does not make history, but just a sad footnote on an internet discussion forum. Fortunately, thank god, history is written by the same people i quote.

You can talk about it when their views become mainstream and their books are not banned from university bookshops or from Thailand altogether. Until then it's a minority dissent, valuable as it is, it does not make history.

[ColPyat]

Hard to agrue that MILLIONS more people than voted for the Demos just a year before voted NO ....Seemingly hard to argue that the PAD informed even MORE millions of people about Thaksin's greed and excess <but apparently someone can argue that> Why there were not even more NO votes could be because people in some areas REALLY liked Thaksin .... it also could be because they needed $$ ... or were in debt already due to populist schemes ... or someone locally TOLD them how to vote ....

But the events do speak to a RAPID degeneration of support for TRT in a period of only a few months! Culminating in the Shin sale ... and shortly thereafter a hardpressed PM dissolving parlaiment to delay action against him!

but that is only how I see it <and a few million others> and not nec the reality

Funny how you claim to speak for millions without any evidence other than your opinion to back it up.

Anyhow, as i can remember the outcome of the nullified vote was still clearly that TRT would have formed a government with one smaller party as a coalition partner, and with a percentage that in any other country would have meant a solid legitimacy.

The huge amount of votes in the 2005 elections are simply explainable due to national euphoria in the aftermath of the tsunami, and secondly by Banyat's completely failed campaign for the Democrats. If you care to remember - just pre tsunami the popularity of TRT was a lot lower as well.

It is clear to conclude that TRT has benefitted from the tsunami national eupohria in the 2005 elections. Go back in time, and remember Democrat efforts to delay the elections.

The outcome of the nullified election was very close to the result of the 2001 election. There was no "rapid degeneration" (what hyperbole!) - only a slight decrease of support, and one that can be explained reasonably with a multitude of factors that have very little to do with the PAD.

I am not saying that the "No" vote campaign of the PAD did not have some effect. It did, especially in the urban areas, but not in the rural areas, where most people did not care much about Sondhi L., neither would get ASTV - the PAD's main motor of propaganda.

What had the far larger effect for the massive amount of "No" votes was the refusal of the opposition parties to take part in the election, which has forced their traditional voter base to use the "No" option (which i personally view as now legalized blackmail. They may have taken the inspiration by the PAD campaign, but to state that the PAD and their campaign has directly influenced these millions of voters has no evidence whatsoever.

Come up with a peer reviewed academic paper that supports your claims, than i will read it and see if it can persuade me to change my views on this matter. Fact persuades, and not self serving hyperbole.

[ColPyat]

A year ago it was impossible to argue against a vile mob of fanatic Thaksin opponents shouting abuse and never supporting their views with either evidence or personal experience. That mob of fence sitters is still failing to show any credible evidence of their views other that knowingly impartial newspaper articles....

Errr... you mean to say that all corruption charges against Thaksin are fake? How's that for objectivity or re-examining history!

When you answer on my quotes, then at least have the decency to answer on them with the context and don't invent a context which was not meant by me.

That does not make history, but just a sad footnote on an internet discussion forum. Fortunately, thank god, history is written by the same people i quote.

You can talk about it when their views become mainstream and their books are not banned from university bookshops or from Thailand altogether. Until then it's a minority dissent, valuable as it is, it does not make history.

If you refer to the Ungpakorn's book - it is available for sale in the Thammasat bookstore.

And what is banned or not in Thailand is anyhow not the question here. The subject of Thai studies is an international subject, and what is already widely available in international institutes matters here. There far better researched papers than Ungpakorns book do offer a line of analyses that oppose your rather one dimensional views very much.

[jdinasia]

Sometimes it is like just argueing with a rock

[ColPyat]

Sometimes it is like just argueing with a rock

Is that now your peer reviewed paper which i have asked you for, the one that supports your unsubstantiated claims?

Or just your opinion?

[sriracha john]

A nationwide network of Khon Rak Thaksin Mai Oaw Padejkarn (Supporters of Thaksin Against Dictatorship) has been officially established with some 60 former MPs of the dissolved Thai Rak Thai party as key leaders.

....

Membership is expected to reach 15 million people in 30 days, according to the network.

Lets see. Any chance of that really happening? I can't take these people seriously.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/07Jun2007_news01.php

The 1,000,000th Thai Elite card will be sold first.

It's exactly the same way as with the PAD which claimed at the time to speak for the Thai people, even though in reality it just spoke for a relatively small sector of society (read Sondhi L.'s interview where he confirms this).

Also, expect further fiddling with the numbers, such as happened with the PAD, where demonstrations with 40 000 attendants were claimed to have had 200 000. We actually see the same now by the same newspaper that supported PAD fiddling, which now under reports the PTV numbers, making out of in excess of ten thousand less than 6000, and when about 5000 attended, only 1000 are reported.

You cannot trust anymore what is reported, and you have to have a look yourself.

Or...

take a reasonable belief in the numbers that are published from a wide variety of news sources, both locally and internationally founded.

The Attention Deficit Disorder Group (formerly known as PTV) themselves have been the worst offenders of the inflated numbers coming up with totals that neither the police estimates, the local news sources, or international news sources with local correspondents on the scene, correspond with. They obviously are not producing numbers anywhere near where their autistic leaders are proclaiming... every news source have been cutting their wild claims in half or more.

[sriracha john]

PAD has resonated with millions of people judging by the success of their no vote campaign.

The same old mistaken conclusion. People who would have voted for the Democrats or Chart Thai had to use the "No" option as their parties did not compete.

The "No" was a vote for the opposition parties, and not direct support for the PAD.

Re-examining history in action. It was impossible to argue that a year ago but now it seems like you can't miss an opportunity to kick up the dust and cloud the issue.

Those who were there know the score, as SJ said.

o-b-f-u-s-c-a-t-i-o-n

[sriracha john]

Thaksin hopes to inspire children by buying Man City

TOKYO: Thaksin Shinawatra, Thailand’s ousted premier who is bidding for Manchester City, said yesterday he hoped to inspire poor Asian children by owning an English football club.

Thaksin, a self-made billionaire and avid football fan, is considered a favourite in the takeover deal for Manchester City which is estimated at around £100mil (US$197mil).

“In getting involved in the football club in England or in the Premier League, we will allow another window open for the younger generation in Asia. That is what I think,” the exiled former leader told reporters in Tokyo.

“Anything that we can do to provide opportunities to younger generations in Asia, we should do it,” he said.

Thaksin, whose great-grandfather was an impoverished Chinese immigrant, said that in Thailand “there are still many poor but talented” children.

He said that in the West, sports “provide opportunities for the gifted young generation to have an opportunity to show themselves, to make themselves a millionaire.”

In 2004 Thaksin led a Thai consortium that tried to buy a 30 percent stake in Liverpool, angering some local fans who wanted to keep the team in British hands.

After being ousted by a military coup in September last year, the former Thai premier has spent much of his time in London in between travelling around the world.

Thaksin is in Tokyo to be a visiting professor of business and economics at Takushoku University.

“I’ve tried to find myself a job by employing myself as a chairman of a football club, but it’s not quick enough,” he said with a laugh. “The university is quicker by employing me as a visiting professor.”

He said it was his “first employment after being ousted and unemployed for a while.”

Senior judges last week dissolved Thaksin’s Thai Rak Thai party and banned the twice-elected premier from politics for five years.

– AFP

=============================================

"That's right, kids. Corruption is the way to a successful future like mine. Next week, I'll be explaining how nepotism can ensure your own children are equally successful."

separate thread:

Thaksin Looking To Buy Manchester City For 6 Billion Baht

[ThaiGoon]

Thaksin hopes to inspire children by buying Man City

=============================================

"That's right, kids. Corruption is the way to a successful future like mine. Next week, I'll be explaining how nepotism can ensure your own children are equally successful."

separate thread:

Thaksin Looking To Buy Manchester City For 6 Billion Baht

[ColPyat]

Or...

take a reasonable belief in the numbers that are published from a wide variety of news sources, both locally and internationally founded.

The Attention Deficit Disorder Group (formerly known as PTV) themselves have been the worst offenders of the inflated numbers coming up with totals that neither the police estimates, the local news sources, or international news sources with local correspondents on the scene, correspond with. They obviously are not producing numbers anywhere near where their autistic leaders are proclaiming... every news source have been cutting their wild claims in half or more.

As has PAD been the worst offender in exaggeration of the numbers. There was/is deliberate exaggeration by the organisers, naturally, and wishful thinking by the attendees that made it easier for them to believe these numbers.

Reporters usually get their numbers from police sources, or copy from each other. Different than during the days of the PAD demonstration there is a clear political will today to underscore the numbers, and security forces are under stricter orders than during the days of the PAD rallies.

Having observed countless such rallies already, i have a certain experience in guessing numbers, which i usually correlate with others who have similiar experience, or use more advanced counting techniques. You are free to disbelieve my numbers of course.

But i have nothing to gain from exaggerating or underscoring the numbers, as i do not support any of the bigger groups. The only group i can support are two rather small groups of mostly intellectuals which is anyhow a minority voice, and it is rather difficult to put their number as more than a few dozen people.

[sriracha john]

Indeed, the world-wide conspiracy against Thaksin's Attention Deficit Disorder Association by Reuters, Agence France-Presse (AFP), Deutsche Presse-Agentur (DPA), Associated Press, The Nation, Australian Associated Press (AAP), Bangkok Post, and the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) is indeed disturbing when countered by your own personal serious scientific research results.

[ColPyat]

Indeed, the world-wide conspiracy against Thaksin's Attention Deficit Disorder Association by Reuters, Agence France-Presse (AFP), Deutsche Presse-Agentur (DPA), Associated Press, The Nation, Australian Associated Press (AAP), Bangkok Post, and the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) is indeed disturbing when countered by your own personal serious scientific research results.

Can you point out where i have said anything resembling your allegations, or do you just try to bait me into flaming again with such a ridiculous accusation?