Insectisides.

[Lickey]

Saw some problems in the Papaya plants today, all the trees are 18months old now, and producing very well, but it seems a few of them have Mosaic, and about 5 others have mites ruining the stem,fruit and leaves, I did a search on this forum and then a google search, it came up with this site that describes our problems to a tee,

http://www.da.gov.ph/tips/papaya.html .

Under diseases, no3

Under Pests, no1.

So what im looking for is the Thai equivilant of Malathion or even Dithane M-45 as pesticides, or if any of you good farmers can give me an alternative, i would be most gratefull, Thanks, Lickey.

PS, sorry for the link, but it save a lot of writing..

[Maizefarmer]

Lickey - both trade names for Dow Chemical products.

You will not find them in Thailand. The best eqiuvilant I can think of will be: ACTARA.

MF

[chownah]

Do you suppose that the "mites" are aphids? In the list of diseases they talk about aphids being the carrier of diseases but in the pest section they don't talk about aphids....makes me think that their pest called a "mite" could also be called an aphid.

In my garden aphids have not been a major problem since I have been gardening organically. They are adequately controlled by ladybugs (ladybirds, ladybeetles) which naturally live here. If I have an outbreak of aphids for some reason (happens about once a year) and I'm worried about it I spray them with dishwashing liquid solution which is very effective. It kills by dissolving the waxing coating on their body which acts as their skin. One application is usually enough in my garden as the ladybugs appear and maintain natural control. Using insecticides tends to kill ladybugs and so it tends to destroy this natural control mechanism.

Chownah

[btate]

^ In the paragraph directly above the mention of the pests - mites - there is a reference to disease carrying aphids and how to get rid of them.

Makes me think they know the difference between mites and aphids. A direct reference to mites as a pest would seem to indicate they are just that an "insect pest".

Bt

[SAP]

Dithane is a trade name the active ingredient is mancozeb, you should be able to get this at your local store.

For Aphid protection they have being using sun spray oil made from sunflowers in potato seed production, which creates a film over the leaf that the aphid cannot penetrate.

SAP

[chownah]

Indeed, Btate is correct in that mites are not aphids. I just googled and found out that mites are arachnids and have 8 legs while aphids are insects and have 6 legs....an easy way to rule out one or the other...6 legs can't be mites and 8 legs can't be aphids.

[Lickey]

Thanks all for your replies, I saw your posts this morning and went with MF actara, we found this at the local farming store, little sachet 20bht, in 10 litres water, got this going this afternoon, spraying all plants, but not sure how this will hold-up in a down pour of rain, so chownahs suds will be a cheaper alternative, BTW, these mites/aphids are so small i cant see how many legs they have without a microscope!!

Interesting reply from SAP, perhaps this sunflower oil spray wont be easily washed of with rain, also will look for mancozeb in the local stores today..

Thankyou all for your input, Lickey..

[Tim207]

Thanks all for your replies, I saw your posts this morning and went with MF actara, we found this at the local farming store, little sachet 20bht, in 10 litres water, got this going this afternoon, spraying all plants, but not sure how this will hold-up in a down pour of rain, so chownahs suds will be a cheaper alternative, BTW, these mites/aphids are so small i cant see how many legs they have without a microscope!!

Interesting reply from SAP, perhaps this sunflower oil spray wont be easily washed of with rain, also will look for mancozeb in the local stores today..

Thankyou all for your input, Lickey..

If I remember correctly, Actara is absorbed by the plant and provides some ongoing protection in addition to immediate effects.

[Lickey]

Thankyou Tim, your post noted, my biggest concern is that as the papaya fruit [in there green form] are sold daily to the local market, and im pretty sure locals dont bother to wash/clean any fruit, Papaya pok pok salad dish is a great favorite around here and i dont want to poison anybody, if the general consencus with you good farmers that Actara is safe to spray on green papaya before selling on, then at the moment i will have to go with that on a quick fix basis,

Thanks for your replies and comments, all appreciated, Lickey..

[Maizefarmer]

Lickey - let me share with you my take on this subject.

In this particular case my opinion is, no - do not spray the plants/foilage with Actara. Apply it through the irrigation system, meaning mix up a tub full - and you only need a couple tea-spoons per acre of plants, and get the gofer to walk round and water each plant. Actara works much better if used systemically.

The above ignores the fact that you are going to be putting produce on the market over the next few days - in which case Actara will be in the plant and the fruit - no way round that - and quite frankly, no way round immaterial which insectide you use

Listen - I don;t want to make a big issue of chemicals residues on market produce - the reality is, like or not - most of what we pick up from fresh markets has residue on/in it - lets not kid ourselves otherwise.

So climbing off the band wagon and being realistic about this - whatever you apply now is going to result in residue over the next few weeks been left in the fruit - and Actara included. The plus with Actara is that you need to use so little of it and it last so long.

I'd describe it as the lessor of the evil options.

If residue is the immediate issue - skip Actara and go for Karate Zeon - and apply this as a foilage spray. Bug up take occurs within a few hours - with the majority of the KZ drying on the surface (i.e. a good wash prior to eating will remove most of the residue). The downside - you will be having to apply more, and sooner - so you get a peak and trough pattern establishing over time, and their are all sorts of chemi-kinetics associated with which is the better in the long run (not the place for all that).

In summary: yes - I would be inclined to go down the foilage spray route if your market timeframe is defined and looming - but for the long run, there is a strong argument to move over to systemic uptakes (from an eviroment point of view, long term of view and economics points of view).

In reality - at the end of the day both options will do, and your residues are going to be no higher than anything else on sale - in fact, used as it says on the tin, chances are your residues are going to be right down at the low end when compared to other products at the market.

MF

[chownah]

Too bad the market will be losing its only source of insecticide free papaya...or so it seems...

[Maizefarmer]

Oh com'on Chownah - climb off the soap-sud bandwagon. You never miss the oppurtunity to get this bit in. I'm not going to read through your old posts but the amount of times you have repeated yourself on this point is almost patronising to everyone.

Tell you what - heres the CHALLENGE

I'll give you 2rai: I'll germinate the Makua and plant them - no pre or post emergence insecticide innoculation: You can manage that 2 rai from field planting till first crop - using your soap technique.

Along side I will plant 2rai of makua and manage them using one insecticide - Karate Zeon or Actara - nothing else, and I will apply it according to the book - down to ensuring that when the first crop comes on line and is ready for picking, residues will be within whatever national and/or international limit you wish me to adhere to.

Sarcasism aside, let me share with you what I beleive will happen:

1) it will not work - the bugs will beat you - you will have a completely mess (and runined crop) within 5 weeks.

2) the time you spend managing the crop will exceed mine by a factor of several 100% ( I will avail to you whatever powered means of spray application you wish to use and I will confine my gofer to using a backpack sprayer - ans still on a unit time/unit area basis my beleif is that the time I spend will be something like 1 quater the time you spend on the job). Is time important?- you bet it is, because as you should know labour if one of your biggest cost inputs.

3) I beleive that my yield will exceed yours by at least double - if not triple.

In summary - yes, there may well be some sense to your method on a small scale/greenhouse/few plants - but on any scale that resembles anything like a commerical approach in this bug laiden enviroment we have in Thailand, I simply do not belive your argument is economically viable

There - a public stament on my side - I will cover all expenses, you are released from all liability (damage to crop, land or any machinary you wish to use), I will provide at my expense all labour you feel you need, and will be responsible for that labour (you may also bring your own).

A 3rd forum member can be chosen to act as judge.

When would you wish to start??

MF

[chownah]

Oh com'on Chownah - climb off the soap-sud bandwagon. You never miss the oppurtunity to get this bit in. I'm not going to read through your old posts but the amount of times you have repeated yourself on this point is almost patronising to everyone.

Tell you what - heres the CHALLENGE

I'll give you 2rai: I'll germinate the Makua and plant them - no pre or post emergence insecticide innoculation: You can manage that 2 rai from field planting till first crop - using your soap technique.

Along side I will plant 2rai of makua and manage them using one insecticide - Karate Zeon or Actara - nothing else, and I will apply it according to the book - down to ensuring that when the first crop comes on line and is ready for picking, residues will be within whatever national and/or international limit you wish me to adhere to.

Sarcasism aside, let me share with you what I beleive will happen:

1) it will not work - the bugs will beat you - you will have a completely mess (and runined crop) within 5 weeks.

2) the time you spend managing the crop will exceed mine by a factor of several 100% ( I will avail to you whatever powered means of spray application you wish to use and I will confine my gofer to using a backpack sprayer - ans still on a unit time/unit area basis my beleif is that the time I spend will be something like 1 quater the time you spend on the job). Is time important?- you bet it is, because as you should know labour if one of your biggest cost inputs.

3) I beleive that my yield will exceed yours by at least double - if not triple.

In summary - yes, there may well be some sense to your method on a small scale/greenhouse/few plants - but on any scale that resembles anything like a commerical approach in this bug laiden enviroment we have in Thailand, I simply do not belive your argument is economically viable

There - a public stament on my side - I will cover all expenses, you are released from all liability (damage to crop, land or any machinary you wish to use), I will provide at my expense all labour you feel you need, and will be responsible for that labour (you may also bring your own).

A 3rd forum member can be chosen to act as judge.

When would you wish to start??

MF

What are you talking about? I posted: "Too bad the market will be losing its only source of insecticide free papaya...or so it seems..."........and you post what?.....

[chownah]

Too bad the market will be losing its only source of insecticide free papaya...or so it seems...

Lickey,

After giving it some consideration I am of the opinion that your papaya is probably not the only papaya at market that is pesticide free....of course I don't have a clue about what market you go to so I most definitely could be wrong but there is probably more naturally grown produce there than people realize. My mother in law grows a pesticide free garden and some of her produce gets sold at market occasionally....she doesn't advertise that its pesticide free so no one even knows this unless they know her personally.

I do want to reaffirm my view that everyone should farm and garden in the manner that they think is best for them in their circumstances and that we should all treat each other respectfully even if we don't prefer the methods used by others.

Chownah

[chownah]

Maizefarmer,

Yes indeed I have posted many times about using dishwashing detergent on aphids...a technique I have used successfully many times and never had a problem with.......and......you have posted about Karate Zeon and Actara many times because it is a product that you have used successfully many times and never had a problem with I guess. We do this because similar questions get asked alot and then we both answer them. Nothing to get excited about. Two different approaches to the same problem...nothing threatening here, just two different ways...two different views.

Chownah

Edited June 9, 2007 by chownah

[Tilapia]

I'm trying to get the math put together here, and it just dont add up.

Chownah, I wonder how big your "organic" farm is ??? As MF says, it takes at lot of hours to work with that kind of farm, and you cant use Thai labor because they dont understand the concept of an organic farm, so you are on your own.

At the same time I'm looking at the amount of posts you have on this forum...8 per day.... So based on that, I would think that your "farm" is a small green-house 1*1meter, built-in the same room as your computer is located. Happy farming.

Tilapia.

[Maizefarmer]

mmmm ... yes, I conceed -you have a valid point regards repeatition.

Still - nope, the qualification that it "works for me" is easily said - I really want to see this work in real world conditions - you have a passion for this approach and I really belive that if you can demonstrate it's viability then you deserve a lot more credit than I and others have given you in the past.

I for one will be the first to bin the insecticides if you can demonstrate it's viable.

Nope, I'm not at all excited about this - I bloody will be if you can demonstrate it.

So - are you willing to?

MF

[chownah]

Lickey,

I'm hoping that you have already gotten the information you need to proceeed with your papaya growing. Its a shame that other posters have taken this topic so far off track. As you can see Maizefarmer has challenged me to a farming duel. I could take him up on the offer but I would hate to put him to shame by out doing him.....I'm not sure if he could survive being outdone by an old man walking behind a two wheel tractor. What do you think? Should I accept his challenge?

hahahahahhaha

Chownah

[chownah]

Maizefarmer,

You want me to demonstrate making a dishwashing detergent solution and spraying it on aphids to kill them? What's to demonstrate? Do you still need help when you go potty too?

hahahahahhaha

Chownah

Edited June 9, 2007 by chownah

[slapout]

Maizefarmer,

You want me to demonstrate making a dishwashing detergent solution and spraying it on aphids to kill them? What's to demonstrate? Do you still need help when you go potty too?

hahahahahhaha

Chownah

Chownah, I guess I have have to support your detergent for aphids as this is what we used on a small garden on the farm. It was for family and excess sold or given away and covered 5 ac. Bigger than most green houses in our area. We also boiled Maragold flowers and chewing tobbaco and added this to our mix. I know there was never any commercial insect spray used and about the only problem we had were the worms in sweet corn and that was not too bad. I would take up a garden growing contest but I am retired and could only oversee the job from a armchair in the shade with a chest of cold beer handy.

[Lickey]

Oh dear, My post wasnt meant to start a feud, come to think of it, I do remember now about you two {MF & Chownah}having differences on insecticides & fertilzer before, I honnestly did a search on the Farming Forum but couldnt find what i needed, I just wondered if there was a good specific one for Papaya, so done a google and came up with names i couldnt find locally,hence the post..

The mrs was very busy at the time and short of taking a tree to the farmers shop i thought id ask here, and you all gave me many choices, thanks for that gentlemen.

As for MFs challenge on Chownah about with or without chemicals, Can anybody imagine that? being in each others pockets for 2/3 months, think they would end up spraying eachother! ...

Perhaps i can take up this challenge for you both? the 9rai PP is more or less seperated by a small access lane, on a 5rai/4rai basis, the irrigation system {low level sprinklers]runs throughout the whole field, it would be easy to convert back to high level sprinklers for this experiment,

Now, Chownah, my holding tank contains 2.300 ltrs water and with 4 big overhead sprinklers this empties in about 25 mins, so what ratio of washing up liquid to a tankfull please,

The only drawback with this method i can see is every time it rains, it would wash off the plants and have to applied again,not a problem as it can be done quickly and easily, but i really dont want to use electricity when the plants have just been naturally watered,this would take place on the 5rai, comments please..

Mf, Your post suggests use a watering can and rose spray round the base of tree, these sachets i bought dilute 1 in 10ltrs water, {actara}, now would this be a quick swirl round the base or a 3 sec burst on base of tree? I can imagine as Tim207 says, this then is inside of leaves,stem ect and will stay there come rain or shine, also is this safe to use on the intercropping chillies,rubber trees,water melon,makua,winged beans ect, Slapout also mentioned worms in sweetcorn, would it slso prevent this? as we have just planted about 3rai amongst the Tamarind and Mango trees.

In the next 3 days we will be planting out 1500 new PP plants, at the moment, they are about 3 inches high, and it seems aphids and mites are prevalant just now, what would be the best way to protect these young plants against insects ect, This is a general question for anybody,

Thankyou all for taking the time to read this and as usual ideas and comments gratefully recieved, Thanks, Lickey.

[btate]

Oh dear, My post wasnt meant to start a feud, come to think of it, I do remember now about you two {MF & Chownah}having differences on insecticides & fertilzer before, I honnestly did a search on the Farming Forum but couldnt find what i needed, I just wondered if there was a good specific one for Papaya, so done a google and came up with names i couldnt find locally,hence the post..

The mrs was very busy at the time and short of taking a tree to the farmers shop i thought id ask here, and you all gave me many choices, thanks for that gentlemen.

As for MFs challenge on Chownah about with or without chemicals, Can anybody imagine that? being in each others pockets for 2/3 months, think they would end up spraying eachother! ...

Perhaps i can take up this challenge for you both? the 9rai PP is more or less seperated by a small access lane, on a 5rai/4rai basis, the irrigation system {low level sprinklers]runs throughout the whole field, it would be easy to convert back to high level sprinklers for this experiment,

Now, Chownah, my holding tank contains 2.300 ltrs water and with 4 big overhead sprinklers this empties in about 25 mins, so what ratio of washing up liquid to a tankfull please,

The only drawback with this method i can see is every time it rains, it would wash off the plants and have to applied again,not a problem as it can be done quickly and easily, but i really dont want to use electricity when the plants have just been naturally watered,this would take place on the 5rai, comments please..

Mf, Your post suggests use a watering can and rose spray round the base of tree, these sachets i bought dilute 1 in 10ltrs water, {actara}, now would this be a quick swirl round the base or a 3 sec burst on base of tree? I can imagine as Tim207 says, this then is inside of leaves,stem ect and will stay there come rain or shine, also is this safe to use on the intercropping chillies,rubber trees,water melon,makua,winged beans ect, Slapout also mentioned worms in sweetcorn, would it slso prevent this? as we have just planted about 3rai amongst the Tamarind and Mango trees.

In the next 3 days we will be planting out 1500 new PP plants, at the moment, they are about 3 inches high, and it seems aphids and mites are prevalant just now, what would be the best way to protect these young plants against insects ect, This is a general question for anybody,

Thankyou all for taking the time to read this and as usual ideas and comments gratefully recieved, Thanks, Lickey.

Lickey, nice proposal and very generous to offer your fields as a test. Plomlem encounterd from the git-go is that these little critters don't hang out on the tops of the leaves.. Yep, they hide, the little devils, on the underside of the leaf where they can easily get at the veins (where the goodies are) of the leaf.

Top spraying won't be effective I'm afraid. I tried the soap with the makua I was growing, used a hand sprayer and lifted every leaf to get at the underside. Sadly I had to do it every two days, either they are tough little critters or I am swarmed by them (which I don't doubt at all).

With that said, I've found the perfect organic pest control for my tomatoes. Intermingle makua with them and the bugs go for the makua every single time... No kidding it works! Twice now and the effect is the same, they really love my makua to the disdain of my maters.

Now that is something Chownah can try, it really works. There is something about fresh tender makua leaves that just draws the little critters. Leaf hoppers, leaf miners, aphids and beetles all prefer my makua to the tomatoes. All plants of the same age have been treated exactly alike, the latest batch got some Karate just before replanting, same fertilizer and the same watering routine across the board as well as the same potting soil mixed with the same buffalo chips. GO Figure.

Bt

[chownah]

Lickey,

I have only used dishwasing detergent for aphids and I have no idea if it will work on mites. The detergent is meant as a stop gap measure while the presence of ladybugs and their larvae is the main control for aphids....ladybugs and their larvae eat aphids and I have read that they eat a variety of other bugs which MIGHT include mites (pun unintended) but I don't know about this from experience. I have seen on the internet one site that claimed that a particular strain of ladybug does indeed eat mites but I most usually don't rely on one source of information to form an opinion so I still have no opinion on ladybugs vs. mites. Frankly I've never seen mites on any of my garden plants....maybe they are there but I've simply not seen them....or maybe the ladybugs eat them....don't know. Do you have ladybugs?

By the way, aphids are usually (maybe always) associated with ants. Ants care for aphids like they were cows. The ants place the ants place the aphids on the plants and then go milk them for the juices they have extracted from your plants......so.....control of ants helps in control of aphids....but my experience is that ladybugs eating the aphids is adequate control (if you have ladybugs present) and the dishwashing detergent is for the occasions when the ladybug density is low and there is a bloom of aphids. Generally speaking I have no aphid problems and only have to spot spray about once or twice per year....the ladybugs basically take care of business. I guess I have alot of ladybugs because I garden organically. Using insecticides has the potential to not only kill the ladybugs but also to kill all of the food that attracts ladybugs to your crops in the first place. It seems that having a few aphids (or other small bugs) present on your plants is beneficial in that it attracts and maintains a healthy population of ladybugs which then keeps the aphids form reproducing to the extent of causing a problem. An organic gardener does not try to eliminate aphids from the garden ecology....the idea is to have a balance.

As to mixing the detergent. I advise getting a hand spray bottle and trying different mixes keeping track of the ratios used. My experience is that a mixture that feels slippery and foams slightly when sprayed is about right....then try it....and as btate says under the leaves is important. It will be difficult to spray underleaf with the hand sprayer but if/when you scale up to a backpack sprayer (or larger) where you use a wand then underleaf will not be so hard. Develop your ratio of detergent to water with the hand sprayer and then scale it up to whatever sized batch you make.....

I have never had to spray large areas because as I have said the ladybugs are the real control agent and the detergent spray is the stopgap measure. As I have developed more confidence in the ladybugs I have started experimenting a bit....this year I had an outbreak of aphids on a couple of makhua plants and I just sprayed them with water to knock most of them off and then waited (while monitoring the situation twice daily) and sure enough the ladybugs arrived and I didn't even have to use the detergent. I know that my scale for this is a gardening scale and my exact methods might not scale well to farm sized plots but I think they can be adapted to work. One difference is monitoring. I can monitor virtually all of my garden plants as there aren't so many....I think if/when I scale up on some crop I'll adopt a well defined monitoring plan and follow it diligently.

The question of how to best encourage ladybugs to live in your fields? Don't have a good answer for this. Using an insecticide is a disincentive for sure. I think that having a variety of other plants growing intermixed with the crop (weeds?) is probably helpful but I have no insights into how this might or might not work. If I find a way to reliably develop ladybug populations you can be sure that I will spread that information far and wide. I expect that some tips on this are already available on the internet but I haven't looked for it much because as I've said I've pretty much got the aphid problem sorted out in my garden.

Chownah

[ozzydom]

Maize farmer,

You want me to demonstrate making a dishwashing detergent solution and spraying it on aphids to kill them? What's to demonstrate? Do you still need help when you go potty too?

hahahahahhaha

Chownah

Chownah, I guess I have have to support your detergent for aphids as this is what we used on a small garden on the farm. It was for family and excess sold or given away and covered 5 ac. Bigger than most green houses in our area. We also boiled Marigold flowers and chewing tobacco and added this to our mix. I know there was never any commercial insect spray used and about the only problem we had were the worms in sweet corn and that was not too bad. I would take up a garden growing contest but I am retired and could only oversee the job from a armchair in the shade with a chest of cold beer handy.

Marigold is of the Chrysanthemum family which are the source of pyrethrum and nicotine sulphate is derived from tobacco,two of the deadliest insecticides around. Nicotine sulphate is suspected as a carcinogenic and has been banned in Oz for many years for its ability to enter the food chain.

[Lickey]

Thanks for the info ozzy, definatly wont be using that as a "natural insecticide" , like the idea of marigolds or chrysanthemum though, as an intercrop, you know, few seeds round the base of plant might be benifical, but not sure if they would grow year round in this climate?I read somewhere that these plants also deter mossies because of the smell they give out.. Also the 1500 new PP plants are planted now, perhaps plant a garlic or onion bulb next to the new plant, im thinking this might deter insects from the tender new leaves, any ideas on that? Thanks Lickey.

[Lickey]

Chownah, now, ladybugs, is this what we brits call ladybirds? flying insect with red shell and blackdots on it? if so, ive never seen any on farm, I do have a backpack sprayer so under the leaves is not a problem, I can understand the mix you mean, i think if i was to put this in my header tank, it would just bubble up in the pump and not go anywhere, also what do you think about using a bit of Dettol in the backpack mix, I mix this with olive oil and rub it on exposed skin, it keeps off all bugs except meat flies Thankyou.

[chownah]

Lickey,

Yes, its your ladybird...same thing....but be advised that they can be red, orange, or yellow with any number of spots or none at all and the spots are sometimes not black. I'm wondering if Isaan is not a good place for them. I'm wondering if anyone in Isaan has seen them around....do you have preying mantis there? They are good for the garden too as they eat bugs...I have them but I only see them from time to time.

Pyrethreum is extracted from the flowers called Painted Daisy which is actually a chrysanthemum as Ozzydom pointed out. I grew some in the US where they grow really easily...they are an attractive flower......don't know how they would do here. If you want to look for seeds they are also called Pyrethreum (just like the insecticide which is made from them) and also Pyrenthrum which is another name for the insecticide too.

As to using Dettol....up to you...I have no idea if it will help....I've heard that tobacco juice works as mentioned before but I've never used it myself. I also have heard that tobacco juice can spread a virus to some susceptible plants and if I remember correctly tomatoes and peppers are at risk so I think I'd google around abit before using tobacco juice.

There's another natural insecticide called rotenone but I don't know what it is extracted from....also neem extract is supposed to work too and is readily available or so I've heard....you can even grow the neem trees here for your own use and possibly as commercial crop....check out neem trees, you might find it exciting.

Chownah

[Maizefarmer]

Depending on the time of the year you can gets loads of ladybugs, but have never had them in a quantity that has allowed me to skip on the med's and rely them alone to do the job. They certainly have a good go at the pests, but they never manage to overwhelm them - the pests always come out on top at the end of the day.

As for nicotine and other natural occuring insecticides - yes, the theory is great. In practise though: if someone could demonstrate their viability in a practical and real world way, I'd be the first to give up using modern chemicals.

The theory is good, and it can be shown to work under certain conditions, but seldom are those conditions equitable to real world circumstances as we experiance them in Thailand. Remember ths successful application of ANY insecticide (natural or otherwise) is a combination of things e.g. time spent applying, how many times it has to be applied over a given period of time, cost of each application, labour involved ect ect .... these are all considerations that determine how viable any insecticide is. To think of ANY insectide just in terms of it's plus/minus enviromental points is idealistic.

Plus points going down the natural route? yes, lots - but they are usualy selective advantages which require a set of conditions that seldom occur in real world situations. On balance, I have yet to see a natural method that can compete realisticly/viably/economically with modern med's.

MF

[SAP]

Plus points going down the natural route? yes, lots - but they are usualy selective advantages which require a set of conditions that seldom occur in real world situations. On balance, I have yet to see a natural method that can compete realisticly/viably/economically with modern med's.

MF

Two years ago, I started some trials on Brocolli, of course I want this to be organic as possible, the main problem we have are tropical army worm and corn borer. I talked with my staff who showed me how you can mix up tobacco with water and spray it on about once a week and bob's your uncle.

This worked like a charm so I went to Khon Kaen to the Tobacco factory and asked if I could get a truck load of waste to mix up my own brew. The Swedish guy there warned me aginst it, telling me that it was quite unsafe to handle, i.e if you have cut on you hand and it gets in it may kill you. Also realisticially speaking the amount of residual chemical in the tobacco were going to make the spray inorganic anyway!!!!!!!!!

We have had problems killing the corn earworm and tropical armyworm in the sweet corn and potatoes. THey had begun to come resistant to chlorpyrifos, which sent me on hunt for better chemicals, Karatre is Ok if you knock them early, but if they get away the only I have found to get good control is to mix a pyrethroid with an organophosphate. And when I started doing this alarm bells started going off, that in 10-20 years what the hel_l am I going to be to control the little blighters. In the end I have found that Bt supplied by Thep Wattana Co is one of the best weapons at very competitive price.

Also as I said in an earlier thread sunflower oil is commercially used in potatoes to prevent aphids.

Another time had a sweet corn expert, forget his name... come and tell how great my corn was because I had millions of earwigs eating all the caterpillar eggs. I had to apologize to the guy, as the block we standing in at the time was getting 4 liters per ha of Cholorypyrifos and 1 liter / ha of cypermethrin injected through the irrigator as we spoke. I said to him that I just do not have faith that the earwigs would do enough damage to the eggs to insure that we would have less than 7% damage (factory req).

SAP

Edited June 12, 2007 by SAP

[Somtham]

Saw some problems in the Papaya plants today, all the trees are 18months old now, and producing very well, but it seems a few of them have Mosaic, and about 5 others have mites ruining the stem,fruit and leaves, I did a search on this forum and then a google search, it came up with this site that describes our problems to a tee,

http://www.da.gov.ph/tips/papaya.html .

Under diseases, no3

Under Pests, no1.

So what im looking for is the Thai equivilant of Malathion or even Dithane M-45 as pesticides, or if any of you good farmers can give me an alternative, i would be most gratefull, Thanks, Lickey.

PS, sorry for the link, but it save a lot of writing..

Not sure if you found the Malathion but you can buy it in Thailand. Here are details of the manufacturer:

The Erawan Agricultural Chemical Co., Ltd

15/7 Soi 33 Ladprao Road Chatuchak Bangkok 10900 Thailand

Tel : 662-513-5251

Fax : 662-513-3181

It is marketed under the name of "Eramol 83"

rgds