9 minutes ago, tonray said:

'enough already ! '

Looks like somebody got it. ????

 

Paul Laew

8 minutes ago, ArcticFox said:

But - if I was the OP this would be my reply:

"She is not my boss."  Then reiterate.  "I'm older and wealthier than her." 
Not only should she wai me first, but her wai should be at the proper height to covey to proper respect toward me - her elder and superior.

If Thais wish to play this game - then know the rules and make them follow them.

This is more or less how the argument went with my wife (I added "more educated" for good measure). I didn't give in, but as multiple posters to this thread have argued, I was probably in the wrong.

 

Thanks for your support, appreciated.

 

Paul Laew

Tell  her, Ok Somchai, I''ll  live by  your customs and wai,    your boss can live by my customs and shake hands.

 

Respect  is  something that is to be earned,  and   without offence to your wife, I have yet to   come across any government worker here that gets   respect from me..  Now  that attitude is one that has come about by observing   how government workers here treat   the common man and woman, as if they are superior  in some way..   I admire  the Thai worker, doing their best to survive in a country living  in the past.

 

1 hour ago, HAPPYNUFF said:

Tell  her, Ok Somchai, I''ll  live by  your customs and wai,    your boss can live by my customs and shake hands.

 

Respect  is  something that is to be earned,  and   without offence to your wife, I have yet to   come across any government worker here that gets   respect from me..  Now  that attitude is one that has come about by observing   how government workers here treat   the common man and woman, as if they are superior  in some way..   I admire  the Thai worker, doing their best to survive in a country living  in the past.

 

I don't believe such demands is healthy for the relationship, but each and for itself.

 

However my gf said the whole situation described seemed stupid, and both parts acting like fools. It is a wai, like say hello in a polite way, and should not be an act based on high nose, and if falang involved, no worries, they should understand. 

 

Well, as I say hello, I also wai no matter what. I haven't hurt me yet, or made a fool of me.

 

As they say in Thailand "Stop thinking to mutt"

On 12/20/2021 at 8:14 AM, Paulaew said:

is there a law of inherited subservience here

no law, it just would have been nice if you did... 

On 12/20/2021 at 8:14 AM, Paulaew said:

My wife said, I was wrong -- because this woman was her boss, I was required to wai first.

 

It would have been a good idea for your wife to give you a heads up on the 'dos and don'ts' before the visit. 

 

Anyway lessons learnt.

Good idea to include this topic in your family's next training schedule. 

 

Geeze, bloody rediculous getting attacked for such a petty thing. 

Looks like you are in the wrong here. It is your wife's boss, so be polite. Her chances of promotion just went out of the window it seems.

On 12/20/2021 at 8:34 AM, Andre0720 said:

What I see is a Wai as a sign of respect to a person who is:

- an elder

- in a position of authority, regardless of age (or wealth for that matter)

- uncertain status, so err on the politeness and respect side

 

But, the Wai that is done done with reverence, in very slow motion, is to make sure that the authority is fully recognized.

 

But if such a person is in a car, on a motorbike, in a house, not facing you, then strangely respect becomes an alien concept.

"Wai" is a symbol of social inequality, a throwback to the days of the Kingdom of Siam. It doesn't belong in a modern democratic society, but then Thailand seems stuck in an undemocratic past in regard to its societal behavior. But I believe that the wai enables the Thai elite class to this day in a perceived societal hierarchy.

Would have flashed the middle finger and made an offer of beer and Sangsom555..????????

On 12/20/2021 at 8:58 AM, Paulaew said:

No, it was an awkward moment -- she was waiting for a wai from me that was not forthcoming. I was expecting a wai from her. It was more or less a breakdown of wai expectations.

 

What followed was a delayed and sort of fumbled co-wai. Neither she nor my wife looked happy about it.

 

Paul Laew

A Mexican wai off, so to speak 

On 12/20/2021 at 8:25 AM, tonray said:

Your wife needs to stop thinking like an indentured servant in her own home ! I fully understand the need to wai her boss at work or in public and even in her own home, that's up to her. But make it clear you are not indebted to her boss in any way or in any kind of servitude to said boss. Your home...your castle. The most you need to do is offer her tea or a cool drink as a polite host.

Japanese bow...so what..your interpretation of subservience indicates no understanding of cross cultural communications of basic respect for others..

My wife used to care but not anymore. I now wai whoever I want to and no one seems offended, embarrassed or confused. One day I may wai a person, the next day not, but they understand I mean well either way. 

 

I have however stopped giving a wai to very old people as I never seem to get a wai in return, not even a smile, just a look of disdain. They now just get a nod of the head with a feigned smile. 

On 12/20/2021 at 9:21 AM, Paulaew said:

I know this can seem a trivial topic, but it's actually quite important to my wife, since she felt my actions reflected poorly on her. If you have a Thai spouse and are here long term, you may find it necessary to live in Thai society.

 

I know some farang enjoy thumbing their noses at Thai norms that seem quaint or outdated or even ridiculous. And it is undoubtedly true that respect is often required when it is not deserved.  But I make an effort to go along with the conventions while maintaining my integrity (not always easy).

 

My original question could be put this way -- when it comes to wai priority, does position trump age, education and wealth? Andre0720 suggested in his post that it does. Not that a department head in a Thai government school is such an exalted position ...

 

Paul Laew

Thank you for bringing this up. It's good to help us farangs understand this very important point of etiquette. I completely understand your wife's position on this matter.

 

i work on the principle that as foreigners we're granted a certain leniency with thai customs, as we would extend to foreigners in our own country. i don't get it right all the time but i am always relaxed, calm, polite and friendly , and i've never had any issues.

 

if my wife's boss came to my home back home i'd extend a hand for a handshake of greeting. so in thai land, if i had a thai wife(!), i'm be more than happy to welcome her boss with a wai.

On 12/20/2021 at 8:14 AM, Paulaew said:

am older, better educated (I'm fairly certain) and, undoubtedly, richer (not that this should matter,

You’re an extension of your wife, not an individual, in the eyes of a collectivist cultured person therefore  you should have wai’d first. The director made the effort to come to your wife’s house and was a guest, and for you to not wai her is basically causing your wife to lose face and disregarding the status of the director. I know that sounds ridiculous but too bad 

 

I personally dont return a wai from frond desk people or taxi drivers etc because it seems odd. However, police, immigration, etc, people who probably take their authority seriously I pay them respect as a mechanical gesture to perhaps smooth the interaction over.

 

same with parents or elders. I simply do it symbolically. 

 

Just now, FalangJaiDee said:

You’re an extension of your wife, not an individual, in the eyes of a collectivist cultured person therefore  you should have wai’d first. The director made the effort to come to your wife’s house and was a guest, and for you to not wai her is basically causing your wife to lose face and disregarding the status of the director. I know that sounds ridiculous but too bad 

Not true, in Thailand your wife is considered your property.

Some threads deserve to die eventually ... we all must have something else to do.

 

Paul Laew

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Not true, in Thailand your wife is considered your property.

Nah. The SIL becomes the 'son' of the wife's family.

1 minute ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Nah. The SIL becomes the 'son' of the wife's family.

Nope, I bought her, so she's my property.

12 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Not true, in Thailand your wife is considered your property.

As long you believe it, it is true! ????

On 12/20/2021 at 9:21 AM, Paulaew said:

I know this can seem a trivial topic, but it's actually quite important to my wife, since she felt my actions reflected poorly on her. If you have a Thai spouse and are here long term, you may find it necessary to live in Thai society.

Too many farang fail to consider how perceived bad manners on their part can make their wife look and feel bad.

 

She has to work with her boss and properly fulfill her role in Thai society. I think, as husbands, we have to booster her role and position. As farang we have a good opportunity to do that because most Thais will assume we have some special status.

 

So kudos to you in trying to do the right thing by your wife. Conversely, it is also her role to protect your face and make you look good in the eyes of others.

 

This lady was a guest (presumably invited by your wife) to your home and you should have wai'd her first. This is more by way of welcoming her into your home and acknowledging her as a friend of your wife. Respective status is not so important in this circumstance. I woud always wai (first) invited guests to my home especially if accompanied by my wife.

 

 

Detest all this nonsense but if dealing with any thai for private  business I always offer first a quick short high wai. 

Firstly, I think the OP's wife should share some of the blame. Knowing that her school superior was visiting she should asked if Paul Laew was aware of when to wai and discussed it prior to the visit. If Paul Laew previously held a position when employed that was superior to the position of school head then entering his home, she should wai first. If it is a question of not knowing then the school head should have asked Paul Laew's wife in advance or/and vice versa

Edited December 21, 20214 yr by TKDfella

If somebody wai's to me I'll respectfully respond with the same... otherwise I don't, if greeting I just nod slightly and say hello [in Thai].

"I know this can seem a trivial topic, but it's actually quite important to my wife, since she felt my actions reflected poorly on her. If you have a Thai spouse and are here long term, you may find it necessary to live in Thai society. "

 

Exactly - it reflects on your wife.

 

My ex-gf/partner is a Thai nurse (now in her early 50s), with 25 years of nursing exprience and a university degree, and she headed a clinic in a district hospital..  I am a mere farang, now in my late 60s, former university lecturer in Australia with a PhD (who taught for half a year at one of Thailand's elite universities). 

 

Although I dislike all this status <deleted> in Thailand, but out of respect of my former gf/partner I always waied her collagues and superiors when I encounted them - sometimes I waied first, sometimes my partner/gf waied first.

On 12/20/2021 at 8:14 AM, Paulaew said:

Afterwards my wife complained that I did not wai her

I dropped my daughter off at school once and Wai'd the teacher.

 

The following evening my daughter was all smiles saying my teacher said to me, "your father is a good man".

 

I know now its good to Wai teacher's and policeman.

Edited December 21, 20214 yr by MrJ2U

On 12/20/2021 at 1:30 PM, Mac Mickmanus said:

Why didn't you speak to the Woman and discuss with her who should do the Wai first ?

Such an act might complicate the matter further and trigger issues around face. Not a good idea at all. 

It's interesting the comments around what, where, how, and why wai's are offered and returned. If it had been me I would have waied the lass seeing as she was my wife's boss. For me no loss of face or stature in offering a polite wai (no need to raise the hands above the chest or bow the head), this infers respect but not any sense of subservience or less-than to the lass

The same hands together gesture is offered in India as a sign of honouring 'prana' the life-force/divinity in us all.  I see my wai to anyone in this way.

On 12/20/2021 at 9:46 AM, grain said:

In this case I would wai the wife's boss immediately. It's purely brown-nosing and will make both wife and boss feel happy and have their big faces. Just play the game...when in Rome and all that.

When in Rome and all that.

What !!!!!!!!!!!!! .   Gargle with Urine for bright white teeth and be Bisexual.

Will pass on that. 

 

 

Edited December 21, 20214 yr by Orinoco

When I first came to Thailand on holidays I was advised by others that had more experience exactly as @thaibeachlovers has said. If you do not wai correctly they will laugh at you (and have plenty of this). So I accepted the advice and never wai anyone. After living her full time for 10 years I have never been told that anyone has been upset by nodding the head or a small bow as a sign of respect without a wai.

4 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

When I first came to Thailand on holidays I was advised by others that had more experience exactly as @thaibeachlovers has said. If you do not wai correctly they will laugh at you (and have plenty of this). So I accepted the advice and never wai anyone. After living her full time for 10 years I have never been told that anyone has been upset by nodding the head or a small bow as a sign of respect without a wai.

When somebody wai you to pay you respect, it is as rude as not accept a hand reaching out to hand shake someone who offer their hand to be polite. 

 

Some think to mutt when it comes to wai, and I would say all involved in the op story, is wrong. It is just a polite gesture, a wai, nothing else. 

 

Stop thinking to much, if you shake hands, you shake hands, if not, dont, the same with a wai.