10,000 Anti-coup Demonstrators Expected At Sanam Luang Rally

[thai_narak]

They are being paid. For instance, most factory workers in Samutsakorn are being fetch by a van everyday and paid Bt200 just to sit in Sanam Luang. I think Thaksin is again financing these mobs now that the ban was lifted.

Any evidence? I believe the Thaksin opposition would be very glad if you could present them with proof.

I have no doubt that there are instances of this, but i very much doubt that it happens on such a large scale as you imply.

of course, if they really want evidence they (opposition) just have talk to the factory workers there and they will have it. why do i have to present it myself? pay them Bt500 and they will tell everything...

[thai_narak]

They are being paid. For instance, most factory workers in Samutsakorn are being fetch by a van everyday and paid Bt200 just to sit in Sanam Luang. I think Thaksin is again financing these mobs now that the ban was lifted.

Any evidence? I believe the Thaksin opposition would be very glad if you could present them with proof.

I have no doubt that there are instances of this, but i very much doubt that it happens on such a large scale as you imply.

look at the number in the news and tell me how much large scale i'm implying...

[ColPyat]

nothing nitpicky about it

we got rid of a not so benign dictator and got saddled with a junta .... the junta is every bit as legal today as Thaksin was .... Then again there was a reason TRT was disbanded and 111 execs were banned .....

Thaksin was elected. The junta wasn't. No retroactive law can make the action of the junta legal as the then valid constitution forbid military coups. The courts may avoid putting the junta to trial, but that does not make it any more legal, on the opposite - it does severely tarnish the supposed impartiality of the courts.

TRT execs were banned and the party dissolved for a nullified election, and that in a court decision that was split showing that at least some judges had more than a few doubts.

Every election that voted TRT in as government is still until today legal.

The junta may have been retroactively sort of legalized, and under a interim constitution they wrote, but did not come to power by any valid law.

[hammered]

They are being paid. For instance, most factory workers in Samutsakorn are being fetch by a van everyday and paid Bt200 just to sit in Sanam Luang. I think Thaksin is again financing these mobs now that the ban was lifted.

Any evidence? I believe the Thaksin opposition would be very glad if you could present them with proof.

I have no doubt that there are instances of this, but i very much doubt that it happens on such a large scale as you imply.

It is far more widespread than you'd think. Even when Thaksin was in power, when he visited places upcountry money and gifts were handed out to get crowds to attend. Now he is out of power it no doubt costs more. Middle class and wealthier urban workers and a few poor but politically active people are willing to demonstarte for free, but the rural masses or even most urban workers? They have better things to do with their money, so they want transportation, food, and "pay for their labour" to demonstrate. I have personally been told by villagers and urban workers that they will not demonstarte unless they are paid. My own wife amazed everyone in her village when she told them what it cost her to attend PAD rallies. They reckoned they wouldnt have even attended a local pro-T rally for less than a few hundred baht and her village at the time was pro-T, and he had just won a landslide victory.

Proving it. Well unless it can be traced back to a T bank account the Junta couldnt care less. Everyone in Thailand knows the PTV demos have many paid people so there is no point wasting time trying to prove what everyone knows, and the chances of tracing it back to a specific bank account are virtually zero.

[thai_narak]

nothing nitpicky about it

we got rid of a not so benign dictator and got saddled with a junta .... the junta is every bit as legal today as Thaksin was .... Then again there was a reason TRT was disbanded and 111 execs were banned .....

Thaksin was elected. The junta wasn't. No retroactive law can make the action of the junta legal as the then valid constitution forbid military coups. The courts may avoid putting the junta to trial, but that does not make it any more legal, on the opposite - it does severely tarnish the supposed impartiality of the courts.

TRT execs were banned and the party dissolved for a nullified election, and that in a court decision that was split showing that at least some judges had more than a few doubts.

Every election that voted TRT in as government is still until today legal.

The junta may have been retroactively sort of legalized, and under a interim constitution they wrote, but did not come to power by any valid law.

I'm sorry???? Thaksin was elected by buying votes... Aren't you aware of this in your local amphoe during election? Don't you have Thai relatives that have been offered Bt500 for TRT? Well, I have...

[jdinasia]

nothing nitpicky about it

we got rid of a not so benign dictator and got saddled with a junta .... the junta is every bit as legal today as Thaksin was .... Then again there was a reason TRT was disbanded and 111 execs were banned .....

Thaksin was elected. The junta wasn't. No retroactive law can make the action of the junta legal as the then valid constitution forbid military coups. The courts may avoid putting the junta to trial, but that does not make it any more legal, on the opposite - it does severely tarnish the supposed impartiality of the courts.

TRT execs were banned and the party dissolved for a nullified election, and that in a court decision that was split showing that at least some judges had more than a few doubts.

Every election that voted TRT in as government is still until today legal.

The junta may have been retroactively sort of legalized, and under a interim constitution they wrote, but did not come to power by any valid law.

No ... Thaksin was not elected ... therein lies the fallacy to all your arguments. At the time of the coup ... nobody was elected and it was likely that nobody would have been in the near future ....

Sooooo since there was only an interim government that was in deep trouble that was brought on by Thaksin .... and no way out of that mess ... something had to give:) Thankfully in the longrun itwill <I hope> prove to be the right choice

[A_Traveller]

<snip>

You forget though that after Vietnam ousted the Khmer Rouge both US and the UK have also supported the Khmer Rouge massively, both with money, weapons and training. The British SAS is said not only having been involved in training, but also in active combat.

Pardon? Forgive me, I don't understand your post. [after .. ousted KR.. both US UK supported KR?] Please clarify for me.

Regards

Sorry, i am not a native English speaker.

After Vietnam invaded Cambodia and threw the Khmer Rouge out, both US and UK have massively supported the Khmer Rouge in their guerrilla war against the Vietnamese occupiers. I hope i made myself more clear now.

Thanks for that, I do appreciate the linguistic point. Without hi-jacking this thread I have to say that your claim, at least from the UK side is in my view not supportable, especially the SAS combat point. However, under the circumstances, guess it is better to agree to disagree and not interrupt the Thai focused discussion.

Regards

[ColPyat]

They are being paid. For instance, most factory workers in Samutsakorn are being fetch by a van everyday and paid Bt200 just to sit in Sanam Luang. I think Thaksin is again financing these mobs now that the ban was lifted.

Any evidence? I believe the Thaksin opposition would be very glad if you could present them with proof.

I have no doubt that there are instances of this, but i very much doubt that it happens on such a large scale as you imply.

look at the number in the news and tell me how much large scale i'm implying...

The news is no evidence or proof. So far it is allegations that are not supported by hard fact.

Bank transfers relating to this?

Footage of money being handed out?

Sworn statements?

As i said, things like this are part of all demonstrations in Thailand. But on a scale that we see in Sanam Luang it is highly unlikely that this makes much difference. Just do the mathematics - every single day there are between 6000 and 8000 protesters, last Saturday there were 20 000, Sunday more than 10 000, and so on Friday. In addition to that every day other thousands are turned back at the many military road block all over the country.

Money transactions on that scale would be noticed and exposed very quickly.

And, even if moneys would be handed out to the majority of the protesters (which i don't believe unless i see clear proof of more than isolated cases), that still does not mean that they do not genuinely feel for Thaksin, and their righteousness.

[thai_narak]

They are being paid. For instance, most factory workers in Samutsakorn are being fetch by a van everyday and paid Bt200 just to sit in Sanam Luang. I think Thaksin is again financing these mobs now that the ban was lifted.

Any evidence? I believe the Thaksin opposition would be very glad if you could present them with proof.

I have no doubt that there are instances of this, but i very much doubt that it happens on such a large scale as you imply.

look at the number in the news and tell me how much large scale i'm implying...

The news is no evidence or proof. So far it is allegations that are not supported by hard fact.

Bank transfers relating to this?

Footage of money being handed out?

Sworn statements?

As i said, things like this are part of all demonstrations in Thailand. But on a scale that we see in Sanam Luang it is highly unlikely that this makes much difference. Just do the mathematics - every single day there are between 6000 and 8000 protesters, last Saturday there were 20 000, Sunday more than 10 000, and so on Friday. In addition to that every day other thousands are turned back at the many military road block all over the country.

Money transactions on that scale would be noticed and exposed very quickly.

And, even if moneys would be handed out to the majority of the protesters (which i don't believe unless i see clear proof of more than isolated cases), that still does not mean that they do not genuinely feel for Thaksin, and their righteousness.

ok... so when will you burn yourself?

Edited June 13, 2007 by thai_narak

[ColPyat]

Thanks for that, I do appreciate the linguistic point. Without hi-jacking this thread I have to say that your claim, at least from the UK side is in my view not supportable, especially the SAS combat point. However, under the circumstances, guess it is better to agree to disagree and not interrupt the Thai focused discussion.

Regards

I can't be bothered to look for all the links that show more than a bit of this damning evidence. John Pilger was the first one who has widely publicized these sad events. Here is a link that might give you the opportunity and keywords in order to look further:

http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/pilgerpot.htm

[ColPyat]

ok... so when will you burn yourself?

No need for that, thanks, posts like yours give me already a burning desire to bang my head against the wall...

[larvidchr]

I wonder why the ardent posters of news clippings have missed this one.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=119412

Sonhti in not so many words warning Thaksin that if he returns he could loose his life, I dont think it is from genuine concern for Thaksins life that Sonthi issues this warning, is CNS now really feeling the pressure and returns to what Dictators do best, threats and intimidation?. What lies behind the PM saying Thaksin can return, and this message from Sonthi?

Kind regards.

[thai_narak]

ok... so when will you burn yourself?

No need for that, thanks, posts like yours give me already a burning desire to bang my head against the wall...

it's just i don't understand why go into round and round discussion, evidence, assumption, blah, blah, against personal experiences of local people who are telling that they are being paid, killed, abused, corrupted, etc.... People like you, like lawyers (liers), who prefer long discussions just wastes our time...

[ColPyat]

ok... so when will you burn yourself?

No need for that, thanks, posts like yours give me already a burning desire to bang my head against the wall...

it's just i don't understand why go into round and round discussion, evidence, assumption, blah, blah, against personal experiences of local people who are telling that they are being paid, killed, abused, corrupted, etc.... People like you, like lawyers (liers), who prefer long discussions just wastes our time...

Yihaa, lets get the vigilantes out, get the rope, and over with it fast. Just lets not bother with all that rubbish like civilization, due process, and such irrelevant hindrances...

[A_Traveller]

Thanks for that, I do appreciate the linguistic point. Without hi-jacking this thread I have to say that your claim, at least from the UK side is in my view not supportable, especially the SAS combat point. However, under the circumstances, guess it is better to agree to disagree and not interrupt the Thai focused discussion.

Regards

I can't be bothered to look for all the links that show more than a bit of this damning evidence. John Pilger was the first one who has widely publicized these sad events. Here is a link that might give you the opportunity and keywords in order to look further:

http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/pilgerpot.htm

As I said, and as the link shows the SAS were not in combat, they were training individuals. This was reported by Jane's [7 NCO's and 1 Captain] contemporaneously. I don't need google for that knowledge.

Regards

[ColPyat]

As I said, and as the link shows the SAS were not in combat, they were training individuals. This was reported by Jane's [7 NCO's and 1 Captain] contemporaneously. I don't need google for that knowledge.

Regards

Well, it is rather difficult to find any proof regrading anything that concerns SAS, persistent allegations are there though, and it anyhow is a minor point towards the larger issue that you have doubted in your first post addressed to me concerning the matter of UK support to the Khmer Rouge - the one you doubted that it was massive and clearly and provably existed.

To quote you here:

Without hi-jacking this thread I have to say that your claim, at least from the UK side is in my view not supportable, especially the SAS combat point. However, under the circumstances, guess it is better to agree to disagree and not interrupt the Thai focused discussion.

Edited June 13, 2007 by ColPyat

[thai_narak]

ok... so when will you burn yourself?

No need for that, thanks, posts like yours give me already a burning desire to bang my head against the wall...

it's just i don't understand why go into round and round discussion, evidence, assumption, blah, blah, against personal experiences of local people who are telling that they are being paid, killed, abused, corrupted, etc.... People like you, like lawyers (liers), who prefer long discussions just wastes our time...

Yihaa, lets get the vigilantes out, get the rope, and over with it fast. Just lets not bother with all that rubbish like civilization, due process, and such irrelevant hindrances...

civilization your a55! who needs evidence when it is already crystal clear what TRT is doing? are you telling me that all the Thai people who have told me about those facts are liers? what do you want them to prove? bank account? come'on! use your brain!

[A_Traveller]

As I said, and as the link shows the SAS were not in combat, they were training individuals. This was reported by Jane's [7 NCO's and 1 Captain] contemporaneously. I don't need google for that knowledge.

Regards

Well, it is rather difficult to find any proof regrading anything that concerns SAS, persistent allegations are there though, and it anyhow is a minor point towards the larger issue that you have doubted in your first post addressed to me concerning the matter of UK support to the Khmer Rouge - the one you doubted that it was massive and clearly and provably existed.

To quote you here:

Without hi-jacking this thread I have to say that your claim, at least from the UK side is in my view not supportable, especially the SAS combat point. However, under the circumstances, guess it is better to agree to disagree and not interrupt the Thai focused discussion.

And remain unsupportable, you are conflating matters. You claimed massive UK support, which is factually inaccurate, even allowing for the regiment's formidable reputation, also the support was for the, as was viewed at the time, non-communist forces, not just the KR. I am sure you are aware of that. As I said before this is not relevant herein and perceptions are shaped by time.

Regards and back to the main topic

PS Since we shall only play tennis with this, I'll let this drop now.

/edit add . & PS//

Edited June 13, 2007 by A_Traveller

[hammered]

ok... so when will you burn yourself?

No need for that, thanks, posts like yours give me already a burning desire to bang my head against the wall...

it's just i don't understand why go into round and round discussion, evidence, assumption, blah, blah, against personal experiences of local people who are telling that they are being paid, killed, abused, corrupted, etc.... People like you, like lawyers (liers), who prefer long discussions just wastes our time...

Yihaa, lets get the vigilantes out, get the rope, and over with it fast. Just lets not bother with all that rubbish like civilization, due process, and such irrelevant hindrances...

A bit like the the TRT government did in its extra judicial slaughter.

[ColPyat]

A bit like the the TRT government did in its extra judicial slaughter.

Not just the TRT government.

There are reasons why there is no substantial investigation into the drug war killings - it could expose some more than damaging facts. A substantial investigation would find it impossible to limit itself with Thaksin and TRT.

[jdinasia]

A bit like the the TRT government did in its extra judicial slaughter.

Not just the TRT government.

There are reasons why there is no substantial investigation into the drug war killings - it could expose some more than damaging facts. A substantial investigation would find it impossible to limit itself with Thaksin and TRT.

any investigation would stop at Thaksin after all he was the CEO

[ColPyat]

PS Since we shall only play tennis with this, I'll let this drop now.

/edit add . & PS//

Good idea to drop the matter. You have a clear advantage in semantically wriggling your way out of an impasse while obfuscating the issues at the same time.

And as this has indeed nothing to do with the topic, and i can't be bothered to go through books and documentaries on this off-topic issue it is entirely up to you to either look into this, or refuse to do so. Presently though, i really don't want to hear anymore about it.

Thanks.

[ColPyat]

A bit like the the TRT government did in its extra judicial slaughter.

Not just the TRT government.

There are reasons why there is no substantial investigation into the drug war killings - it could expose some more than damaging facts. A substantial investigation would find it impossible to limit itself with Thaksin and TRT.

any investigation would stop at Thaksin after all he was the CEO

You would wish so.

Fact though is - there is no substantial investigation, it hasn't even been mentioned anymore lately when the alleged crimes of Thaksin were listed. Any investigation into Thaksin's involvement in the drug war would necessarily unearth things that are possibly better off where they are now - in obscurity...well, from the view of all - the Junta, Thaksin, and many others.

My view is that it should have been the first thing that should have been investigated, and every involvement should have been exposed to all.

Edited June 13, 2007 by ColPyat

[sriracha john]

They are being paid. For instance, most factory workers in Samutsakorn are being fetch by a van everyday and paid Bt200 just to sit in Sanam Luang. I think Thaksin is again financing these mobs now that the ban was lifted.

Any evidence? I believe the Thaksin opposition would be very glad if you could present them with proof.

I have no doubt that there are instances of this, but i very much doubt that it happens on such a large scale as you imply.

It is far more widespread than you'd think. Even when Thaksin was in power, when he visited places upcountry money and gifts were handed out to get crowds to attend. Now he is out of power it no doubt costs more. Middle class and wealthier urban workers and a few poor but politically active people are willing to demonstarte for free, but the rural masses or even most urban workers? They have better things to do with their money, so they want transportation, food, and "pay for their labour" to demonstrate. I have personally been told by villagers and urban workers that they will not demonstarte unless they are paid. My own wife amazed everyone in her village when she told them what it cost her to attend PAD rallies. They reckoned they wouldnt have even attended a local pro-T rally for less than a few hundred baht and her village at the time was pro-T, and he had just won a landslide victory.

Proving it. Well unless it can be traced back to a T bank account the Junta couldnt care less. Everyone in Thailand knows the PTV demos have many paid people so there is no point wasting time trying to prove what everyone knows, and the chances of tracing it back to a specific bank account are virtually zero.

There's no need to "prove" it. Yours and thai narak's words are all the proof that is necessary. The Lieutenant is the first to come up with assertions based on nothing more than his experiences and he expects everyone to take it as the gospel truth.... so to demand anything more than that when someone else posts their experiences should require no more proof than the words they type on their keyboard. This is the Internet... and he's a prime example that you can be whoever you want to be and have whatever experience you want to have.

And just to corroborate the topic at hand further, many Eastern Seaboarders attend the rallies of TRT/Thaksin as paid participants.

Edited June 13, 2007 by sriracha john

[jdinasia]

A bit like the the TRT government did in its extra judicial slaughter.

Not just the TRT government.

There are reasons why there is no substantial investigation into the drug war killings - it could expose some more than damaging facts. A substantial investigation would find it impossible to limit itself with Thaksin and TRT.

any investigation would stop at Thaksin after all he was the CEO

You would wish so.

Fact though is - there is no substantial investigation, it hasn't even been mentioned anymore lately when the alleged crimes of Thaksin were listed. Any investigation into Thaksin's involvement in the drug war would necessarily unearth things that are possibly better off where they are now - in obscurity...well, from the view of all - the Junta, Thaksin, and many others.

My view is that it should have been the first thing that should have been investigated, and every involvement should have been exposed to all.

again it would stop at Thaksin ... he was the CEO

[ColPyat]

There's no need to "prove" it. Yours and thai narak's words are all the proof that is necessary. The Lieutenant is the first to come up with assertions based on nothing more than his experiences and he expects everyone to take it as the gospel truth.... so to demand anything more than that when someone else posts their experiences should require no more proof than the words they type on their keyboard. This is the Internet... and he's a prime example that you can be whoever you want to be and have whatever experience you want to have.

You conveniently omit the many research papers i post links to, that substantiate my claims, the published books i recommend to read, and that two days after my latest by you sarcastically disputed personal experience of mine was indeed then reported about in the medias, substantiating my personal experience and guess.

[LindsayBKK]

Thaksin's already lost 1Billion Baht + thanks to the Junta

how much more money does he want to waste?

How much they getting paid? 10,000 x 400bht?

[sriracha john]

I wonder why the ardent posters of news clippings have missed this one.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=119412

Sonhti in not so many words warning Thaksin that if he returns he could loose his life, I dont think it is from genuine concern for Thaksins life that Sonthi issues this warning, is CNS now really feeling the pressure and returns to what Dictators do best, threats and intimidation?. What lies behind the PM saying Thaksin can return, and this message from Sonthi?

Kind regards.

It's in the other thread.... the Ousted PM Returns Home thread.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...view=getnewpost

It's more on-topic there.

Edited June 13, 2007 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

again it would stop at Thaksin ... he was the CEO

I believe you have difficulties with what a substantial investigation means. It is not there to reconfirm your speculations, but to unearth impartially all aspects of the issue to be investigated. No it would not stop at Thaksin (who was Prime Minister). An investigation that would stop at Thaksin would not be substantial, it would be absolutely useless.

[hammered]

They are being paid. For instance, most factory workers in Samutsakorn are being fetch by a van everyday and paid Bt200 just to sit in Sanam Luang. I think Thaksin is again financing these mobs now that the ban was lifted.

Any evidence? I believe the Thaksin opposition would be very glad if you could present them with proof.

I have no doubt that there are instances of this, but i very much doubt that it happens on such a large scale as you imply.

It is far more widespread than you'd think. Even when Thaksin was in power, when he visited places upcountry money and gifts were handed out to get crowds to attend. Now he is out of power it no doubt costs more. Middle class and wealthier urban workers and a few poor but politically active people are willing to demonstarte for free, but the rural masses or even most urban workers? They have better things to do with their money, so they want transportation, food, and "pay for their labour" to demonstrate. I have personally been told by villagers and urban workers that they will not demonstarte unless they are paid. My own wife amazed everyone in her village when she told them what it cost her to attend PAD rallies. They reckoned they wouldnt have even attended a local pro-T rally for less than a few hundred baht and her village at the time was pro-T, and he had just won a landslide victory.

Proving it. Well unless it can be traced back to a T bank account the Junta couldnt care less. Everyone in Thailand knows the PTV demos have many paid people so there is no point wasting time trying to prove what everyone knows, and the chances of tracing it back to a specific bank account are virtually zero.

There's no need to "prove" it. Yours and thai narak's words are all the proof that is necessary. The Lieutenant is the first to come up with assertions based on nothing more than his experiences and he expects everyone to take it as the gospel truth.... so to demand anything more than that when someone else posts their experiences should require no more proof than the words they type on their keyboard. This is the Internet... and he's a prime example that you can be whoever you want to be and have whatever experience you want to have.

And just to corroborate the topic at hand further, many Eastern Seaboarders attend the rallies of TRT/Thaksin as paid participants.

I have an interesting story from Chonburi when Mr. T was PM and facing rpotests. At that time he decided to do a tour of the country and he had daily rallies where the poor were shown in reasonable numbers listening to him speak and giving him moral support. Then he was to come to Chonburi. Like other places TRT organised the handouts. Three hundred baht was the figure. The TRT werent stupid though to be paid when you showed up. Then there was 1000 baht per songthaew driver to appear with a load again to be paid on arrival. Well that night the news reports went on and nothing at all about the previously announced Chonburi we love Thaksin rally. What had gone wrong? Had the cameras broken down? COuldnt they get near enough to film over the vast crowd?

Well the next day I was down the market having some breakfast and listening to what was being spoken. Apparently about 30 people had shown up plus a bunch of emptyish songthaews to claim their money. Mr. T was rapidly moved back to Bangkok. TRT were so angry that nobody got paid. That was the talk at the market for a few days by the couple of women who had gone to get their handout.