10,000 Anti-coup Demonstrators Expected At Sanam Luang Rally

[sriracha john]

There's no need to "prove" it. Yours and thai narak's words are all the proof that is necessary. The Lieutenant is the first to come up with assertions based on nothing more than his experiences and he expects everyone to take it as the gospel truth.... so to demand anything more than that when someone else posts their experiences should require no more proof than the words they type on their keyboard. This is the Internet... and he's a prime example that you can be whoever you want to be and have whatever experience you want to have.

You conveniently omit the many research papers i post links to, that substantiate my claims, the published books i recommend to read, and that two days after my latest by you sarcastically disputed personal experience of mine was indeed then reported about in the medias, substantiating my personal experience and guess.

and totally disproven by other media reports... which then, do not substantiate your unprofessional "guesses."

and yet so many of your other "experiences" have nothing to substantiate them... not Giles book nor any other reference. They are... just that.... words on a monitor that you have entered. Unless there is a peer-reviewed book highlighting your biographical life that you haven't offered up to us yet.

The experiences of thai narak, hammered, and myself regarding the payment of monies for people to attend Thaksin rallies.... are corroborated.

[jdinasia]

again it would stop at Thaksin ... he was the CEO

I believe you have difficulties with what a substantial investigation means. It is not there to reconfirm your speculations, but to unearth impartially all aspects of the issue to be investigated. No it would not stop at Thaksin (who was Prime Minister). An investigation that would stop at Thaksin would not be substantial, it would be absolutely useless.

or simply factual and based on the CEO model.

doesn't matter what else you say or imply ... Thaksin promoted himself as being the CEO. The ultimate responsibility lies on his shoulders. I know you'd LIKE to think other people are to blame ... but your speculation there just doesn't hold water.

[ColPyat]

I have an interesting story from Chonburi when Mr. T was PM and facing rpotests. At that time he decided to do a tour of the country and he had daily rallies where the poor were shown in reasonable numbers listening to him speak and giving him moral support. Then he was to come to Chonburi. Like other places TRT organised the handouts. Three hundred baht was the figure. The TRT werent stupid though to be paid when you showed up. Then there was 1000 baht per songthaew driver to appear with a load again to be paid on arrival. Well that night the news reports went on and nothing at all about the previously announced Chonburi we love Thaksin rally. What had gone wrong? Had the cameras broken down? COuldnt they get near enough to film over the vast crowd?

Well the next day I was down the market having some breakfast and listening to what was being spoken. Apparently about 30 people had shown up plus a bunch of emptyish songthaews to claim their money. Mr. T was rapidly moved back to Bangkok. TRT were so angry that nobody got paid. That was the talk at the market for a few days by the couple of women who had gone to get their handout.

Which does prove a point that is highlighted by Giles regarding "vote buying" - if people don't want to come, they will not come, even if money is offered.

Vote buying and and paying people to demonstrate is a bit more complex. It surly exists, but it should not be measured along purely western views, and used as a simple attack on the depth of feeling people have. It is more to be seen as additional incentives, as a proof of intent of the people handing out the funds that they are able and powerful enough to follow up on their intentions.

This of course goes many ways, you will have people who simply attend rallies because they have nothing better to do (i have had friends who did that in the Chatuchak rallies, happy to get some money for a bit of sitting and shouting), but there are many other nuances as well.

And, the incidents of such practices should not be just used to generally judge the whole issue, especially when there are no real numbers or statistics available.

We move there in a very dangerous field of speculation when we make assumptions and suddenly take them as fact valid for all. The issue is far more complex than it appears, and Thai cultural aspects of the patron client system, the responsibility of the patron and how he proves this to his client are very important factors.

[larvidchr]

I wonder why the ardent posters of news clippings have missed this one.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=119412

Sonhti in not so many words warning Thaksin that if he returns he could loose his life, I dont think it is from genuine concern for Thaksins life that Sonthi issues this warning, is CNS now really feeling the pressure and returns to what Dictators do best, threats and intimidation?. What lies behind the PM saying Thaksin can return, and this message from Sonthi?

Kind regards.

It's in the other thread.... the Ousted PM Returns Home thread.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...view=getnewpost

It's more on-topic there.

Thank you

I was looking for it, before posting and missed it, and was 20 min late anyway cant win everytime.

Kind regards

[hammered]

I have an interesting story from Chonburi when Mr. T was PM and facing rpotests. At that time he decided to do a tour of the country and he had daily rallies where the poor were shown in reasonable numbers listening to him speak and giving him moral support. Then he was to come to Chonburi. Like other places TRT organised the handouts. Three hundred baht was the figure. The TRT werent stupid though to be paid when you showed up. Then there was 1000 baht per songthaew driver to appear with a load again to be paid on arrival. Well that night the news reports went on and nothing at all about the previously announced Chonburi we love Thaksin rally. What had gone wrong? Had the cameras broken down? COuldnt they get near enough to film over the vast crowd?

Well the next day I was down the market having some breakfast and listening to what was being spoken. Apparently about 30 people had shown up plus a bunch of emptyish songthaews to claim their money. Mr. T was rapidly moved back to Bangkok. TRT were so angry that nobody got paid. That was the talk at the market for a few days by the couple of women who had gone to get their handout.

Which does prove a point that is highlighted by Giles regarding "vote buying" - if people don't want to come, they will not come, even if money is offered.

Vote buying and and paying people to demonstrate is a bit more complex. It surly exists, but it should not be measured along purely western views, and used as a simple attack on the depth of feeling people have. It is more to be seen as additional incentives, as a proof of intent of the people handing out the funds that they are able and powerful enough to follow up on their intentions.

This of course goes many ways, you will have people who simply attend rallies because they have nothing better to do (i have had friends who did that in the Chatuchak rallies, happy to get some money for a bit of sitting and shouting), but there are many other nuances as well.

And, the incidents of such practices should not be just used to generally judge the whole issue, especially when there are no real numbers or statistics available.

We move there in a very dangerous field of speculation when we make assumptions and suddenly take them as fact valid for all. The issue is far more complex than it appears, and Thai cultural aspects of the patron client system, the responsibility of the patron and how he proves this to his client are very important factors.

We also shouldnt forget that 300 baht in some provinces seems a lot to ordinary people being far more than can earn in a day. In Chonburi there arent many Thai people working for as little as that a day and I doubt that even TRT would have risked briniging in the Burmese, Khmer and Lao workers who earn amounts lees or equal to that in Chonburi. So simple economics can be used to explain this case too as there certainly were one hel_l of a lot more TRT supporters than 30 odd in the province back then. And a quote from my wifes uncle in the north: nobody demonstrates for anybody up here unless they paid including Thaksin, and from what I hear up there the amount needed to stimulate people to join a TRT demo has gone up quite a bit since the demise of Mr. T in fact it seems to go up with every setback he suffers, but there are still people trying to pay up north to get demonstartors down to Bangkok, but it seems they are not actually very clear about what people will go to demonstrate about, and how people will get back and such minor details. It is not like in the TRT good ole days when they just got the state functionaries to wheel everyone onto a bus said you are going to Bangkok (or wherever the demo was) to listen to the PM (or whatever TRT bigmouth was going on)and gave em a couple of hundred baht. To get upcountry people to demonstrate in Bangkok now will take very serious money and organization. As others have noted the shipped in paid demonstrastors seem to be labour from neighboring provinces.

[ColPyat]

We also shouldnt forget that 300 baht in some provinces seems a lot to ordinary people being far more than can earn in a day. In Chonburi there arent many Thai people working for as little as that a day and I doubt that even TRT would have risked briniging in the Burmese, Khmer and Lao workers who earn amounts lees or equal to that in Chonburi. So simple economics can be used to explain this case too as there certainly were one hel_l of a lot more TRT supporters than 30 odd in the province back then. And a quote from my wifes uncle in the north: nobody demonstrates for anybody up here unless they paid including Thaksin, and from what I hear up there the amount needed to stimulate people to join a TRT demo has gone up quite a bit since the demise of Mr. T in fact it seems to go up with every setback he suffers, but there are still people trying to pay up north to get demonstartors down to Bangkok, but it seems they are not actually very clear about what people will go to demonstrate about, and how people will get back and such minor details. It is not like in the TRT good ole days when they just got the state functionaries to wheel everyone onto a bus said you are going to Bangkok (or wherever the demo was) to listen to the PM (or whatever TRT bigmouth was going on)and gave em a couple of hundred baht. To get upcountry people to demonstrate in Bangkok now will take very serious money and organization. As others have noted the shipped in paid demonstrastors seem to be labour from neighboring provinces.

Simple economics are obviously part of the issue, but they still do not explain this phenomenon as a whole.

The problem is, paid or non paid - a vast number of Thais do still support Thaksin and TRT. We can lose ourselves in anecdotal evidence, i have both - friends who were paid to take part in the pro TRT Chatuchak demonstrations, and an unpaid neighbor of mine i have met during last Saturday's demonstration, who always was very pro Thaksin, and we had many friendly discussions about our opposing views on Thaksin.

People from upcountry who want to attend the demonstrations, paid or unpaid, are turned back at military road blocks.

The government uses state sponsored volunteer organisations to pressure people into accepting the new constitution. But attacking the present demonstrations as simply paid demonstrators without their own will and opinion on these matters may be convenient, but it does not serve justice to reality, and it belittles the views of ordinary TRT supporters.

This may work short term, but it is furthering a very dangerous split. These people have a right to express their views, their right of a vote has been taken away from them, and belittling them will only aggravate the situation. These people were consistently belittled, when they voted for Thaksin - they were accused of having sold their vote. When they argue that TRT policies benefited them - they were accused of putting their own interest before the interest of the country.

It sound very much like a lose-lose position they are being forced into.

Beware of the leader that might use this marginalization of large sectors of society one day more ruthlessly than Thaksin.

[younghusband]

They are being paid. For instance, most factory workers in Samutsakorn are being fetch by a van everyday and paid Bt200 just to sit in Sanam Luang. I think Thaksin is again financing these mobs now that the ban was lifted.

Any evidence? I believe the Thaksin opposition would be very glad if you could present them with proof.

I have no doubt that there are instances of this, but i very much doubt that it happens on such a large scale as you imply.

It is far more widespread than you'd think. Even when Thaksin was in power, when he visited places upcountry money and gifts were handed out to get crowds to attend. Now he is out of power it no doubt costs more. Middle class and wealthier urban workers and a few poor but politically active people are willing to demonstarte for free, but the rural masses or even most urban workers? They have better things to do with their money, so they want transportation, food, and "pay for their labour" to demonstrate. I have personally been told by villagers and urban workers that they will not demonstarte unless they are paid. My own wife amazed everyone in her village when she told them what it cost her to attend PAD rallies. They reckoned they wouldnt have even attended a local pro-T rally for less than a few hundred baht and her village at the time was pro-T, and he had just won a landslide victory.

Proving it. Well unless it can be traced back to a T bank account the Junta couldnt care less. Everyone in Thailand knows the PTV demos have many paid people so there is no point wasting time trying to prove what everyone knows, and the chances of tracing it back to a specific bank account are virtually zero.

There's no need to "prove" it. Yours and thai narak's words are all the proof that is necessary. The Lieutenant is the first to come up with assertions based on nothing more than his experiences and he expects everyone to take it as the gospel truth.... so to demand anything more than that when someone else posts their experiences should require no more proof than the words they type on their keyboard. This is the Internet... and he's a prime example that you can be whoever you want to be and have whatever experience you want to have.

And just to corroborate the topic at hand further, many Eastern Seaboarders attend the rallies of TRT/Thaksin as paid participants.

Actually ColPyat is one of the relatively few who backs his observations with evidence or relevant literature.Within the context of internet anonymity, he has been relatively up front about his politics and belief systems.With others, including yourself, we know next to nothing except your obsession with Thaksin.I don't usually agree with Hammered but always respect him and there is obviously an intellect at work.To be fair to Plus, he at least has a coherent if feudalistic view of the world.Thai Narak is simply too absurd to bother with.If you get the chance it would be quite interesting to understand your world view so your rather onanistic posting history could be understood in some kind of context.Not urgent though!

[jdinasia]

yh .... you've missed many of the dooooooooozies told in here! but stick around ... more some out all the time!

[pyrolover2000]

And why wouldnt the Thai underclass feel like they are being taken for a ride against the course of democracy?

It is the Thai underclass who make up the majority of voters and therefore decide who will be the political rulers of their country. It is the Thai underclass who put the TRT in power simply because it offered them and their children the best hope for a better life. Now that hope is being taken away from them by men in military uniform armed with guns and tanks.

We can argue here about the technical points of law and the micro-concepts involved in every little stage of this sagas development, but when you step back and look at the big picture its plain to see that the coup was intended solely to oppose democracy and impose a replacement government through a pseudo-democratic process against the wishes of the majority of voters.

Just take a look at the sequence of events so far.

1. The military take over the legitimate government by force of arms.

2. The military impose martial law on the land, lifting it only in places where they have political support and maintaining it in places where people are angered by this slight on democracy.

3. The military bans all political activity from all parties, but writes a new constitution to suit their needs and calls for fresh elections in a years time.

4.. The military appoints a tribunal of judges who dissolve the countries most popular political party and bans its executives from political activity for 5 years.

5. Only days after banning the countries most popular political party, the military junta then allows political activity from the non-banned parties.

One doesn't have to be too bright to see the military's plan to wrestle political power away from the peoples popular choice and towards one of the militaries choice. This is an absolute perversion of democracy and the majority of Thailand's population can see it quite clearly.

However, historically, there has been a long list of military coups in Thailand. And historically, the underclass has always been powerless to overthrow military regimes imposed on them. This current situation is no different. We have martial law still imposed on provinces where resistance to the military regime is considered a threat. We have censorship of the electronic media (TV). We have road blocks preventing mass transport of the rural poor from getting to Bangkok to protest against this perversion of democracy. And, of course we have the fact that the vast majority of the countries underclass who oppose the military junta, and its plan to pervert the course of democracy, are simply too poor to neglect their daily duty to try and feed a family to go to Bangkok and protest. Add into that equation the fact that poor in Thailand have been downtrodden by a ruling elite backed by military force since pre-history, and you get a culture of acceptance from many of the countries rural underclass that resistance is futile. However, the one thing that Thaksin and the TRT gave the Thai underclass, and especially the rural poor, was hope. Hope that their voice in a democracy counted for something. And hope for a better life and perhaps a little greater share in the countries wealth.

It seems certain that the military juntas plan to pervert the course of democracy in Thailand is well on track and will probably succeed in the short term. However, the poor underclass have seen hope. They have had a small taste of democracy. And this current repressive regime can not hold back that desire for equality and freedom in the long term.

Unless Thailand regresses permanently to a repressive military regime like Burma, democracy and the will of the people will eventually triumph over the military dictatorship and perversion of democracy they try to impose on the people.

However true democracy holds some challenges for Thailand. Not only would better wages and conditions for the underclass poor upset the traditional balance of power between the minority elite ruling class and the majority poor, but it would also have economic ramifications for the country as a whole. A redistribution of wealth in Thailand would mean that the cost of labour to produce cheap export commodities would not be competitive with other developing Asian nations. But one has to ask the question, -- is it really in Thailand's interest to maintain a peasant underclass, simply to compete with less developed nations in the region and to provide an opulent lifestyle for the elite? Is that really in Thailand's best interests long term, or is it just in the best interests of those individuals in power in Thailand at the moment?

Great post.

Thank heavens there is someone on this site that fights the horrible disinformation spred by "members" <edit>

My thanks go also to ColPyat for all the noble efforts he has shown in this thread

Ando's post hit the mark..

I was starting to wonder if anyone really grasped the whole concept of a coups here. This is a pure and simple POWER GRAB. For anyone to think otherwise is just crazy.

[SiamSquare123]

I have an interesting story from Chonburi when Mr. T was PM and facing rpotests. At that time he decided to do a tour of the country and he had daily rallies where the poor were shown in reasonable numbers listening to him speak and giving him moral support. Then he was to come to Chonburi. Like other places TRT organised the handouts. Three hundred baht was the figure. The TRT werent stupid though to be paid when you showed up. Then there was 1000 baht per songthaew driver to appear with a load again to be paid on arrival. Well that night the news reports went on and nothing at all about the previously announced Chonburi we love Thaksin rally. What had gone wrong? Had the cameras broken down? COuldnt they get near enough to film over the vast crowd?

Well the next day I was down the market having some breakfast and listening to what was being spoken. Apparently about 30 people had shown up plus a bunch of emptyish songthaews to claim their money. Mr. T was rapidly moved back to Bangkok. TRT were so angry that nobody got paid. That was the talk at the market for a few days by the couple of women who had gone to get their handout.

Which does prove a point that is highlighted by Giles regarding "vote buying" - if people don't want to come, they will not come, even if money is offered.

Vote buying and and paying people to demonstrate is a bit more complex. It surly exists, but it should not be measured along purely western views, and used as a simple attack on the depth of feeling people have. It is more to be seen as additional incentives, as a proof of intent of the people handing out the funds that they are able and powerful enough to follow up on their intentions.

This of course goes many ways, you will have people who simply attend rallies because they have nothing better to do (i have had friends who did that in the Chatuchak rallies, happy to get some money for a bit of sitting and shouting), but there are many other nuances as well.

And, the incidents of such practices should not be just used to generally judge the whole issue, especially when there are no real numbers or statistics available.

We move there in a very dangerous field of speculation when we make assumptions and suddenly take them as fact valid for all. The issue is far more complex than it appears, and Thai cultural aspects of the patron client system, the responsibility of the patron and how he proves this to his client are very important factors.

Jeez, what is it that YOU do for a living ColyPat? Ever run for public office? I never get enough of your crackpot reflections on Thai Politics and why TRT is so great.

[Siripon]

I had to think of the colonel just now, ASTV broadcast one of Dr Weng's speeches from last year's post Shin sale to Temesek.

The good doctor really ripped into Thaksin, 'selling out the nation'. It must be very uncomfortable for him to be associated with the 'love Thaksin', prepared to commit suicide mob.

Note how none of the TRT bigwigs appear on stage at Sanam Luang, can't afford to be associated with any potential bloodshed.

[blaze]

The good doctor really ripped into Thaksin, 'selling out the nation'. It must be very uncomfortable for him to be associated with the 'love Thaksin', prepared to commit suicide mob.

And why do you suppose he is willing to suffer that discomfort?

Edited June 13, 2007 by blaze

[blaze]

I have an interesting story from Chonburi when Mr. T was PM and facing rpotests. At that time he decided to do a tour of the country and he had daily rallies where the poor were shown in reasonable numbers listening to him speak and giving him moral support. Then he was to come to Chonburi. Like other places TRT organised the handouts. Three hundred baht was the figure. The TRT werent stupid though to be paid when you showed up. Then there was 1000 baht per songthaew driver to appear with a load again to be paid on arrival. Well that night the news reports went on and nothing at all about the previously announced Chonburi we love Thaksin rally. What had gone wrong? Had the cameras broken down? COuldnt they get near enough to film over the vast crowd?

Well the next day I was down the market having some breakfast and listening to what was being spoken. Apparently about 30 people had shown up plus a bunch of emptyish songthaews to claim their money. Mr. T was rapidly moved back to Bangkok. TRT were so angry that nobody got paid. That was the talk at the market for a few days by the couple of women who had gone to get their handout.

Which does prove a point that is highlighted by Giles regarding "vote buying" - if people don't want to come, they will not come, even if money is offered.

Vote buying and and paying people to demonstrate is a bit more complex. It surly exists, but it should not be measured along purely western views, and used as a simple attack on the depth of feeling people have. It is more to be seen as additional incentives, as a proof of intent of the people handing out the funds that they are able and powerful enough to follow up on their intentions.

This of course goes many ways, you will have people who simply attend rallies because they have nothing better to do (i have had friends who did that in the Chatuchak rallies, happy to get some money for a bit of sitting and shouting), but there are many other nuances as well.

And, the incidents of such practices should not be just used to generally judge the whole issue, especially when there are no real numbers or statistics available.

We move there in a very dangerous field of speculation when we make assumptions and suddenly take them as fact valid for all. The issue is far more complex than it appears, and Thai cultural aspects of the patron client system, the responsibility of the patron and how he proves this to his client are very important factors.

Jeez, what is it that YOU do for a living ColyPat? Ever run for public office? I never get enough of your crackpot reflections on Thai Politics and why TRT is so great.

That's the best you can do? C'mon- argue with the man. Just a little bit. You can do it. Put on your thinking cap... ready? Now... think! THEN speak.

[Herbie nus]

10,000 anti-coup demonstrators expected at Sanam Luang rally

BANGKOK: -- Some 8,000 to 10,000 persons, including former members of the now disbanded Thai Rak Thai party, are expected to join an anti-coup rally organised by People's Television (PTV), an alternative broadcast media organised by associates of discredited prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who claims he has left politics.

Only 200 police have been assigned to crowd control duties at Sanam Luang, the Thai capital's traditional venue for anti-government demonstrations, to maintain law and order, according to senior police officers. The government is committed to preventing violence from taking place, and to not encouraging altercations by fielding too many security.

Bangkok police chief Pol. Lt-Gen. Adisorn Nonsi said he expected a substantial crowd, including many ex-members of the Thai Rak Thai (TRT) party which Mr. Thaksin founded and used as his political power base, in Saturday's demonstration against the Council for National Security and the interim government of Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont.

The TRT was ordered to dissolve following last week's ruling by the Constitution Tribunal that party officers committed electoral fraud in the lead-up to the April 2, 2006 general election, which was declared null and void later.

111 senior executives of the party, including Mr. Thaksin, were banned from all political activities for the next five years.

The executives and founders of PTV are former members of Thai Rak Thai party. It is unknown what action would be taken against senior executives of the party if they join in the rally to be held at Sanam Luang Saturday evening.

Officers from police stations throughout the capital are urging the public to remain at home in response to concern that violence could erupt.

--TNA 2007-06-09

wich date?

[SiamSquare123]

I have an interesting story from Chonburi when Mr. T was PM and facing rpotests. At that time he decided to do a tour of the country and he had daily rallies where the poor were shown in reasonable numbers listening to him speak and giving him moral support. Then he was to come to Chonburi. Like other places TRT organised the handouts. Three hundred baht was the figure. The TRT werent stupid though to be paid when you showed up. Then there was 1000 baht per songthaew driver to appear with a load again to be paid on arrival. Well that night the news reports went on and nothing at all about the previously announced Chonburi we love Thaksin rally. What had gone wrong? Had the cameras broken down? COuldnt they get near enough to film over the vast crowd?

Well the next day I was down the market having some breakfast and listening to what was being spoken. Apparently about 30 people had shown up plus a bunch of emptyish songthaews to claim their money. Mr. T was rapidly moved back to Bangkok. TRT were so angry that nobody got paid. That was the talk at the market for a few days by the couple of women who had gone to get their handout.

Which does prove a point that is highlighted by Giles regarding "vote buying" - if people don't want to come, they will not come, even if money is offered.

Vote buying and and paying people to demonstrate is a bit more complex. It surly exists, but it should not be measured along purely western views, and used as a simple attack on the depth of feeling people have. It is more to be seen as additional incentives, as a proof of intent of the people handing out the funds that they are able and powerful enough to follow up on their intentions.

This of course goes many ways, you will have people who simply attend rallies because they have nothing better to do (i have had friends who did that in the Chatuchak rallies, happy to get some money for a bit of sitting and shouting), but there are many other nuances as well.

And, the incidents of such practices should not be just used to generally judge the whole issue, especially when there are no real numbers or statistics available.

We move there in a very dangerous field of speculation when we make assumptions and suddenly take them as fact valid for all. The issue is far more complex than it appears, and Thai cultural aspects of the patron client system, the responsibility of the patron and how he proves this to his client are very important factors.

Jeez, what is it that YOU do for a living ColyPat? Ever run for public office? I never get enough of your crackpot reflections on Thai Politics and why TRT is so great.

That's the best you can do? C'mon- argue with the man. Just a little bit. You can do it. Put on your thinking cap... ready? Now... think! THEN speak.

Hmm, I guess that I think his explanation that vote buying is a product of the "Thai cultural aspects of the patron client system" is complete BS and something only a politician or a politician's apologist could dream up. Its called stringing a bunch of words together without actually saying anything of value. Watch the movie "Thank You For Not Smoking", its a great example of this type of manipulation.

Edited June 13, 2007 by SiamSquare123

[Mid]

Protests planned for Isaan and North as well as Bangkok

June 13, 2007 : Last updated 07:44 pm (Thai local time)

Anti-coup leaders say they expect over 50,000 people to attend a demonstration this Saturday.

And there are plans for anti-coup rallies in five cities in Isaan and the North - so rural villagers can avoid Army checkpoints aimed at stopping them going to protests in Bangkok.

The Nation

[Herbie nus]

I have an interesting story from Chonburi when Mr. T was PM and facing rpotests. At that time he decided to do a tour of the country and he had daily rallies where the poor were shown in reasonable numbers listening to him speak and giving him moral support. Then he was to come to Chonburi. Like other places TRT organised the handouts. Three hundred baht was the figure. The TRT werent stupid though to be paid when you showed up. Then there was 1000 baht per songthaew driver to appear with a load again to be paid on arrival. Well that night the news reports went on and nothing at all about the previously announced Chonburi we love Thaksin rally. What had gone wrong? Had the cameras broken down? COuldnt they get near enough to film over the vast crowd?

Well the next day I was down the market having some breakfast and listening to what was being spoken. Apparently about 30 people had shown up plus a bunch of emptyish songthaews to claim their money. Mr. T was rapidly moved back to Bangkok. TRT were so angry that nobody got paid. That was the talk at the market for a few days by the couple of women who had gone to get their handout.

Which does prove a point that is highlighted by Giles regarding "vote buying" - if people don't want to come, they will not come, even if money is offered.

Vote buying and and paying people to demonstrate is a bit more complex. It surly exists, but it should not be measured along purely western views, and used as a simple attack on the depth of feeling people have. It is more to be seen as additional incentives, as a proof of intent of the people handing out the funds that they are able and powerful enough to follow up on their intentions.

This of course goes many ways, you will have people who simply attend rallies because they have nothing better to do (i have had friends who did that in the Chatuchak rallies, happy to get some money for a bit of sitting and shouting), but there are many other nuances as well.

And, the incidents of such practices should not be just used to generally judge the whole issue, especially when there are no real numbers or statistics available.

We move there in a very dangerous field of speculation when we make assumptions and suddenly take them as fact valid for all. The issue is far more complex than it appears, and Thai cultural aspects of the patron client system, the responsibility of the patron and how he proves this to his client are very important factors.

Jeez, what is it that YOU do for a living ColyPat? Ever run for public office? I never get enough of your crackpot reflections on Thai Politics and why TRT is so great.

That's the best you can do? C'mon- argue with the man. Just a little bit. You can do it. Put on your thinking cap... ready? Now... think! THEN speak.

Hmm, I guess that I think his explanation that vote buying is a product of the "Thai cultural aspects of the patron client system" is complete BS and something only a politician or a politician's apologist could dream up. Its called stringing a bunch of words together without actually saying anything of value. Watch the movie "Thank You For Not Smoking", its a great example of this type of manipulation.

sorry but what date

[Plus]

You are stretching it. No fundamental differences between Hitler and Thaksin?

Lets start about an ideology based on racial superiority by the Nazis, and no recognizable ideology by Thaksin, especially nothing about racial superiority (some of his erstwhile right wing supporters, later opponents though had a few issues with that, people such as Pramuan Rujanaseri)?

Thaksin championed Asian cause and established Asia Cooperation Dialogue with no "white" people allowed. Not quite the same in scale and ambition but racist superiority of Asians was always there.

What about the fact that as soon as Hitler came to power he dissolved parliament, and sent political opponents to the concentration camps, and Thaksin never did anything like that?

Hitler legally dissolved it, legally reopened it and he got the majority of Reichstag to grant his government extra powers. According to wiki they continued voting for it all they way through the war. Thaksin allowed opposition MPs to draw their salaries, nothing much was allowed beyond that. Opposition was completely ineffective, though it was there on paper.

What about Hitlers base politics of territorial expansionism, none of that by Thaksin?

etc.

Different era, in those days borders were redrawn every now and then but now they are pretty much fixed. These days govt use economic expansionism and Thaksin tried that when he could, he didn't call Thailand a hub of this and hub of that for no reason.

It has been sufficiently disproved hat Hitler was partly Jewish, and is just fashionable under conspiracy theory buffs. Not even worthy of discussion.

I used the word "suspected". What is true beyond doubt is that he was Austrian who didn't even have a German citizenship at the start of his political rise to power. Thaksin is of Chinese ancestry, of course, though he has born as Thai.

Again, if you quote my posts, then please quote me correctly. I mentioned the Militias and Paramilitary organisations. But i have not talked about the past only, i have mentioned that they are very present in today's Thailand. And that they have very little to do with Thaksin.

The forest ranger conspiracy theory has never been supported by any evidence, and is just rumor.

Unarmed rangers disrupted early Lumpini rallies, uniformly clad thugs beaten up people at Central World. That was not rumors. The army demanded return of 4,000 rifles, that was not a rumor.

Detailed intellegence report about rangers training was sent via SMS to all mobile phone subscribers, directly from Sonthi's own phone - check you inbox, it must be next to Thaksin signing Finland conspiracy videoclip. That's the usual way Thailand and the rest of the world deals with intellegence reports, apart form publishing them in all major dailes and reading three times a day on public TV.

Though I must agree, for the sake of peace, that if you didn't recieve it, it doesn't exist.

Yes, please don't say anything more about this subject. You give me a headache.

I'm so very sorry. Get well soon. I waited nine hours before replying.

[ColPyat]

Detailed intellegence report about rangers training

"Forest Rangers", plus, "Rangers" are a completely different unit.

If there would have been any truth in the Finland conspiracy then Thaksin would already be in jail for treason and lese majeste.

[Siripon]

The good doctor really ripped into Thaksin, 'selling out the nation'. It must be very uncomfortable for him to be associated with the 'love Thaksin', prepared to commit suicide mob.

And why do you suppose he is willing to suffer that discomfort?

Because as a doctor he knows exactly which pills to fend off reality. You should hear that speech, portraying Thaksin as a great betrayer.

[Plus]

Detailed intellegence report about rangers training

"Forest Rangers", plus, "Rangers" are a completely different unit.

If there would have been any truth in the Finland conspiracy then Thaksin would already be in jail for treason and lese majeste.

Published on Jan 27, 2006

...Sondhi Limthongkul revealed yesterday that he had sued nine government officials, including Natural Resources and Environment Minister Yongyuth Tiyapairat, for abuse of power.

Sondhi said the nine defendants had wrongfully mobilised park rangers and other subordinates from the North to disrupt his talk show, Thailand Weekly, held at Lumpini Park.

Published on Jan 31, 2006

Media mogul Sondhi Limthongkul will file a lawsuit against the prime minister, the Natural Resources and Environment Minister and others ....

The suit accuses the defendants, including a Regional Border Patrol Police commander, of mobilising 30 police volunteers from Chiang Rai to disturb and create chaos at the “Thailand Weekly” programme at Lumpini Park on January 20, Suwat said.

Forest rangers, park rangers, police volunteers - what matters is that they were organised by the government to disrupt opposition rallies.

>>>>>>>

They can't sue anyone based on eyewitness accounts, the best evidence there's to Finland conspiracy. For the generals, though, that would probably be enough to accept it.

If, for example, Thaksin said something extremely inappropriate in Sonthi's presense, in a private conversation, do you really think that Sonthi would wait for courts to make his judgement? Do you think that Sonthi should presume Thaksin's innocence until some court rules on the content of their private talk? How's that supposed to work at all???

The junta didn't mention Finland plan to justify the coup, but that doesn't mean that they didn't take note of its probable existence. They might have other sources to collaborate Thaksin's intentions, and only one trustworthy source is all that needed to make a judgement call and withdraw the benefit of doubt from their minds.

I'm not aware of any court ruling that I had my dinner today. That doesn't mean that I'm hungry. Similarly existence of Finland plan does not depend on court rulings - it either exists or doesn't on its own, independently from what you, me, or anyone else thinks. Those who were there, know what happened. From that on it'a matter of trusting the source.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Plus

[sriracha john]

Anti-coup leaders say they expect over 50,000 people to attend a demonstration this Saturday.

So the leaders are already revising their estimates downwards... as their pie-in-the-sky expectations of 60,000 last weekend was met with actually less than a third of that inflated figure.

[thai_narak]

Anti-coup leaders say they expect over 50,000 people to attend a demonstration this Saturday.

So the leaders are already revising their estimates downwards... as their pie-in-the-sky expectations of 60,000 last weekend was met with actually less than a third of that inflated figure.

why? TRT don't have budget now? Rally this big costs just about 10M baht...

[sriracha john]

The good doctor really ripped into Thaksin, 'selling out the nation'. It must be very uncomfortable for him to be associated with the 'love Thaksin', prepared to commit suicide mob.

And why do you suppose he is willing to suffer that discomfort?

Because as a doctor he knows exactly which pills to fend off reality. You should hear that speech, portraying Thaksin as a great betrayer.

I hope his PTV co-protesters don't catch too much of a glimpse of the speech.... or else, he's a candidate for a pummeling like Kraisak Chonhavan received at the last protest. He shouldn't stand too close to those suicidal Grassroots for Thaksin co-protesters, as well.... or else he's a candidate for getting caught in their brush fire.

[ColPyat]

The good doctor really ripped into Thaksin, 'selling out the nation'. It must be very uncomfortable for him to be associated with the 'love Thaksin', prepared to commit suicide mob.

And why do you suppose he is willing to suffer that discomfort?

Because as a doctor he knows exactly which pills to fend off reality. You should hear that speech, portraying Thaksin as a great betrayer.

I hope his PTV co-protesters don't catch too much of a glimpse of the speech.... or else, he's a candidate for a pummeling like Kraisak Chonhavan received at the last protest. He shouldn't stand too close to those suicidal Grassroots for Thaksin co-protesters, as well.... or else he's a candidate for getting caught in their brush fire.

It is more than well known that Dr. Weng was part of PTV briefly. Even though the alliance is dominated by PTV and most of the protesters are clearly pro Thaksin - the individual groups making up the alliance are still existing and not dissolved.

You will also find that many of the Ramkanghaeng students who presently work as guards at the PTV demonstrations were also protesting against Thaksin. There are many people who were part of the anti Thaksin demonstrations who now protest against the military.

Many people who have joined the PAD demonstrations have been shocked and disappointed with the coup, have not demonstrated just to exchange Thaksin's transgressions against democracy with what they view as even worse transgressions against their democratic rights by the military.

It's a bit more complicated than you think, for many Thais it's not just that getting rid of Thaksin would justify a military takeover.

It's a terrible situation, and it is bound to get a lot worse, and maybe very soon. There are some very nasty rumors making the rounds now, misinformation is spread, and things are heating up.

I do expect the number of people demonstrating will increase. Just wait and see.

[sriracha john]

Interesting points from a real Colonel...

The acting police chief also has his men videotaping the rally, just in case police need evidence for criminal prosecution.

But somehow police under his command seem to prefer to keep their distance and leave the demonstrators alone. People are beginning to wonder what he is up to. A police colonel notes that it is not so hard to block demonstrators when intelligence reports suggest that most of them are factory workers paid to join the protest. "A friend of mine runs a factory in Bang Khun Thian. He told me his workers are paid 300 baht to come to Sanam Luang. Transportation is free," said the police colonel. Just a simple warning from the police of an impending search of the premises would be enough to scare factory owners into ordering their workers not to join any political activities. So far, however, no such warnings have been given. An observer theorised that many police officers were still staunch admirers of deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his populist schemes. The police force is said to have been the beneficiary of several cash-spinning schemes initiated by the previous government, including the digit lottery. Some policemen were thus sympathetic towards demonstrators and thus had become lenient, or even lax in performing their duties.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/14Jun2007_news37.php

[blaze]

Interesting points from a real Colonel...

The acting police chief also has his men videotaping the rally, just in case police need evidence for criminal prosecution.

But somehow police under his command [b]seem to prefer[/b] to keep their distance and leave the demonstrators alone. People are beginning to wonder what he is up to. A police colonel notes that it is not so hard to block demonstrators when intelligence reports suggest that most of them are factory workers paid to join the protest. "A friend of mine runs a factory in Bang Khun Thian. He told me his workers are paid 300 baht to come to Sanam Luang. Transportation is free," said the police colonel. Just a simple warning from the police of an impending search of the premises would be enough to scare factory owners into ordering their workers not to join any political activities. So far, however, no such warnings have been given.An observer theorised [/b]that many police officers were still staunch admirers of deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his populist schemes. The police force is said to have been the beneficiary of several cash-spinning schemes initiated by the previous government, including the digit lottery. Some policemen were thus sympathetic towards demonstrators and thus had become lenient, or even lax in performing their duties.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/14Jun2007_news37.php

That's not a news article. That is a memo on a reporter's desk suggesting a news story. A real newspaper would investigate and then try to provide facts- which this 'article' sadly lacks. Heresay, rumor and innuendo.

Edited June 14, 2007 by blaze

[hammered]

Interesting points from a real Colonel...

The acting police chief also has his men videotaping the rally, just in case police need evidence for criminal prosecution.

But somehow police under his command [b]seem to prefer[/b] to keep their distance and leave the demonstrators alone. People are beginning to wonder what he is up to. A police colonel notes that it is not so hard to block demonstrators when intelligence reports suggest that most of them are factory workers paid to join the protest. "A friend of mine runs a factory in Bang Khun Thian. He told me his workers are paid 300 baht to come to Sanam Luang. Transportation is free," said the police colonel. Just a simple warning from the police of an impending search of the premises would be enough to scare factory owners into ordering their workers not to join any political activities. So far, however, no such warnings have been given.An observer theorised [/b]that many police officers were still staunch admirers of deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his populist schemes. The police force is said to have been the beneficiary of several cash-spinning schemes initiated by the previous government, including the digit lottery. Some policemen were thus sympathetic towards demonstrators and thus had become lenient, or even lax in performing their duties.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/14Jun2007_news37.php

That's not a news article. That is a memo on a reporter's desk suggesting a news story. A real newspaper would investigate and then try to provide facts- which this 'article' sadly lacks. Heresay, rumor and innuendo.

This is actually from the politcal gossip bit that the Post does every Thursday and is not an article as such. These pieces are always quite interesting but are political gossip and presented as such. What one wants to make of them is up to the individual I guess. Persoanlly I find em a good read but havent a clue how accurate they are.

Just providing a bit of context on this.

[thai_narak]

Interesting points from a real Colonel...

The acting police chief also has his men videotaping the rally, just in case police need evidence for criminal prosecution.

But somehow police under his command seem to prefer to keep their distance and leave the demonstrators alone. People are beginning to wonder what he is up to. A police colonel notes that it is not so hard to block demonstrators when intelligence reports suggest that most of them are factory workers paid to join the protest. "A friend of mine runs a factory in Bang Khun Thian. He told me his workers are paid 300 baht to come to Sanam Luang. Transportation is free," said the police colonel. Just a simple warning from the police of an impending search of the premises would be enough to scare factory owners into ordering their workers not to join any political activities. So far, however, no such warnings have been given. An observer theorised that many police officers were still staunch admirers of deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his populist schemes. The police force is said to have been the beneficiary of several cash-spinning schemes initiated by the previous government, including the digit lottery. Some policemen were thus sympathetic towards demonstrators and thus had become lenient, or even lax in performing their duties.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/14Jun2007_news37.php

HEY! come'on now! this is not fair... the factory workers from Samut Sakhon are just paid Bt200! who the hel_l cut the Bt100 baht off? I will immediately inform the sources there...

[CNXagent]

Interesting points from a real Colonel...

The acting police chief also has his men videotaping the rally, just in case police need evidence for criminal prosecution.

But somehow police under his command seem to prefer to keep their distance and leave the demonstrators alone. People are beginning to wonder what he is up to. A police colonel notes that it is not so hard to block demonstrators when intelligence reports suggest that most of them are factory workers paid to join the protest. "A friend of mine runs a factory in Bang Khun Thian. He told me his workers are paid 300 baht to come to Sanam Luang. Transportation is free," said the police colonel. Just a simple warning from the police of an impending search of the premises would be enough to scare factory owners into ordering their workers not to join any political activities. So far, however, no such warnings have been given. An observer theorised that many police officers were still staunch admirers of deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his populist schemes. The police force is said to have been the beneficiary of several cash-spinning schemes initiated by the previous government, including the digit lottery. Some policemen were thus sympathetic towards demonstrators and thus had become lenient, or even lax in performing their duties.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/14Jun2007_news37.php

HEY! come'on now! this is not fair... the factory workers from Samut Sakhon are just paid Bt200! who the hel_l cut the Bt100 baht off? I will immediately inform the sources there...

No wonder another 8 Billion baht was withdrew from some accounts